Dawntrail vs. Stormblood? [possible spoilers]

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Originally Posted by Yuri_Love

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV5DHToXtMg

Gods, take me back.

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I love that scene, and I love the way he says, "You, whose only accomplisment was to whisper the right words in the right ear?"

I'm actually replaying Stormblood to properly gauge this as its been years since I played through the msq, but so far its been pretty engaging. A lot of kill quests and combat scenarios, Lyse isn't the driving focus of every quest and cutscene, the scions are acting like themselves, people practically kiss the ground the warrior of light steps on (which makes an amazing foil when Zenos shows up and stomps us, our Rocky 3 moment) Can't say I'm feeling the comparisons to DT just yet. We'll see!

https://i.postimg.cc/cCN3rwMR/ffxiv-...163240-230.jpg
member isse and the villagers. gods, stormblood just has MOMENTS

While it doesn't feel completely far to compare yet, since a lot of Stormblood's worst parts were in patches and Dawntrail hasn't had any patches yet, I still say overall Stormblood is my least liked expansion. Just for a few points, because I have a migraine and don't want to sit here all day thinking about it:


The Yda/Lyse reveal has no impact, since there was never any hints about a sister in the first place, yet we're supposed to act shocked about it or hurt that she never told us. Why?

Zenos bores me. I've gone on and on about him before, so all I'm gonna say here is; I hate Zenos.

The Ala Mhigo arc, despite being where basically all of the buildup in 3.4-3.5 was aimed, gets stalled out after the first level so we can go off to the Far East for the next seven, then gets a rushed-feeling conclusion at the end. And since Lyse's arc is tied to Ala Mhigo.....

The first dungeon is entirely pointless, never explained (just what was that broadcast tower? Where are all these monsters and undead coming from? If it's right on the way between Limsa and Kugane, implied to be a route that Carvalein's crew knows well, how has no one dealt with it before?), and never relevant again. Even the achievement for clearing it lampshades the pointlessness of it.

The Ruby Sea feels mostly empty. Much ado is made of learning to breath underwater to swim, but not a whole lot is done with it to make it any different than moving around anywhere else.

Susano comes out of nowhere, has little impact on the story, and yet his defeat is the big signal that the Red Kojin are defeated.

Lakshmi is at least as pointless as Susano. She exists because they needed some time for Fordola to escape, so they needed a reason for us to not be right behind her.

We literally do nothing in the Lochs but move between solo duties and cut scenes, the entire zone could be dropped with little impact.

The Siege of Ala Mhigo is just a mess. Why would the Alliance conveniently forget that Garlemald uses airships when it's been one of their biggest advantages all along? How did Hien and his crew get there, crossing a hostile continent on birds, somehow knowing where to go in a land they'd never seen before?

For all his buildup, Shinryu ultimately amounts to nothing but Zenos Phase 2. He has no dialogue, takes no actions other than responding to being attacked, he's a floating decoy.

Somehow, Gosetsu and Yotsuyu returned. It gets a handwave later, but it still felt out of nowhere.

Lakshmi's return is even worse than her first appearance. We know tempering is (at this point in the story) incurable, so why would the Qalyana be invited at all? How did those Resistance soldiers get tempered when there was never any point they could've actually been around Lakshmi?

Somehow, Zenos returned. We still don't have an explanation for it, he can just body surf now.

Asahi is such a smug little shit that you'd have to be completely genre blind to not see that he's pulling a scheme.

How did Tsuyu get away? Why was no one guarding the most important prisoner in the entire nation? I can accept that Gosetsu is too wounded to keep up, but was no one else assigned to her? Especially knowing that Asahi was looking for her?

Somehow, Gaius returned.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Somehow this post got made

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I'll start by saying it's OK that you hate Stormblood. You're entitled to like what you like.

Now, I'm going to ruthlessly eviscerate this post, because there's so much wrong with it, you had to have basically been tuned out to think it's Star Wars Sequel Trilogy tier garbage.

Yes, the Yda -> Lyse change was hamfisted. They could have easily just had her remove the mask, but I guess they wanted it to be more impactful than just an change to her appearance, and that was what they came up with. If anything, contentious a choice as it is, it still has people talking about it since its inception. Bad publicity is still publicity. (oh god is this why they did Wuk the way they did OTL)

I hated Zenos on my first playthrough of StB, at least until the reveals about him later in the story. His effortless trouncing of the WoL at Rhalgr's Reach really got me hot under the collar, because I found it to make little sense, at the time, but in hindsight it was the writers' way of building personal beef for the player. And again, it's still talked about and can start conversations years later.

No, the Ala Mhigo arc wasn't rushed. It's the first two levels of the expansion Levels 60 and 61, and then the last 4 levels(67, 68, 69, and 70). Far East was given 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, and the first half of 67. Yes, it suffers from The Far East being a majority focus for the expansion, but it wasn't rushed. It just didn't have a lot to tell. Also, Lyse's whole arc is the entirety of Stormblood, not just the Ala Mhigo bits. You have confused Lyse's Ala Mhigan heritage backstory with being her arc. That's not her entire arc. Her arc is taking the fight to Garlemald, and learning how to lead and inspire. It's also bearing witness to the WoL's deeds as the great liberator. She makes a nod about that in almost every area intro cutscene. She is developing and doing things the entire expansion, not just in Ala Mhigo.

The first dungeon is the Sirensong Sea, and it is literally an unexpected encounter on the open seas. Basically, it's the storm from Dawntrail's opening, except more interesting and playable. It's basically a ship graveyard around a magitek lighthouse of some flavor. Lorelei is a German Siren equivalent. The cause of the dungeon is that enough restless spirits wound up near that old lighthouse, and caused it to be strong enough to cause the winds and Carvaillain's Ceruleum Engine to die. Basically the Lorelei lured a bunch of sailors there over the years, but at this point, was strong enough to just tractor beam ships in. The dungeon description still in game says, "The Misery was pulled off course by a mysterious force." Clearly, other people who got dragged off course died, and Carvaillain's crew had not been dragged there before. It's lowkey a FFV reference to when Syldra is separated from Faris's pirate ship by the Karlabos, and the ship is put out to drift, winding up in a ship graveyard where the party has to defeat the Siren. It turns out sea travel's not effortless, and the developers wanted the voyage to be memorable. You at least remember it, huh?

The Ruby Sea is mostly sea, sure. But it has the tower, later known to be Heaven on High. The pirates. The Blue and Red Kojin. Sui-no-sato. Shisui of the Violet Tides. A volcano. The auspice shrine. Tons of underwater features. It's one of the best zones in the game. Especially in the expansion that introduced swimming and diving.

Susano did come out of nowhere, MMO formula be damned, but defeating him was how we got the Red Kojin to not mess with us further, basically. And at least he added to the game world's lore by introducing the Far East's rendition of primals formed from "Kami."

Lakshmi exists to give us a reason to interact with more Ananta, and to build on their lore as a beastmen tribe. Sure, you described her direct narrative consequence, but Stormblood spent part of its run time doing world building for Etheirys. She was part of that.

You could say this about any final zone in an expansion. It's a critique that means nothing. As for what we actually did, we followed an Ala Mhigan resistance member to a salt refinery in order to make contact with the populace of the Lochs and find an in road to getting into the residential section of the city. We swam into the city. Rescued Krile and beat Fordola at the Resonance facility, thus learning part of the reason Zenos is so strong. Fought some random wolf bro conscripts to change their allegiance and reinforce the allied forces. Assaulted Ala Mhigo proper and took it back from The Empire.

The Alliance didn't forget. They just don't have war airships of their own, cause I guess the Ishgardians are just never gonna pony up and use that one from Sea of Clouds. Not just a XIV thing. Pretty historical for the Final Fantasy series to have the bad guys have air superiority to keep the good guys as scrappy underdogs. FFII, FFIV, FFIX, FFXI, FFXII, FFXIII, and FFXV all have bad guys pushing good guys back with air superiority. The only real crime is why wouldn't a legion of Garlemald have a dreadnaught like the Gration from Heavensward in waiting? And why couldn't the Alliance take one down like they do at Ghimlyt Dark (off screen)? This is actually touching on Stormblood's real issue, which is the issue of the scale of its war scenarios. Especially vs. established lore and the like.

As for Hien and the Yols, it's established that Yols are bad ass. They're like mega fauna Taruk Makto situation from James Cameron's Avatar.

Shinryu didn't have buildup. He was a surprise, only vaguely hinted at after his fight with Omega. He is literally controlled by Zenos, Zenos claiming mastery over The Echo gained from The Resonant procedure.

Somehow, when in an anime trope having game the NPCs Turtlemen said, "We couldn't find their bodies in the river." You didn't think, "Man, they aren't dead." Real problem here is it undercut any emotional tension in Doma Castle scene. Particularly on replays. Of course, it's used to serve post patch content so... eh.

Lyse's democratic republic council prided itself on welcoming ALL inhabitants of Gyr Abania, and she even acknowledges it's not a good idea to let them in, but we would let them in, in good faith, and perhaps mend the rift that existed with them. You know, characters trying to be good people. Yes, it can be dumb, but that's what the good and true do.

We had the explanation since Stormblood. He gained the Echo and had mastery over it, allowing him to do what Ascians do. Allowing him to do what WoL does. Come back from seemingly certain death, in a new body, of course, because that's what the bad guys do. Good guys get the Echo Ardbert edition for just getting back up, no biggie.

Asahi didn't wear his mask very long, and it played into the political theater aspect that was part of StB.

Tsuyu got away because no one cared enough about her to want to look after her properly. Literally probably a, "If she wanders off she'll probably die, and I want that to happen since Hien has forbidden killing her."

Ayup, Gaius coming back from the dead as an Ascian slaying desert hobo was not on my bingo card. That's known as a surprise twist. They don't land for everyone. Thanks for playing!

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Originally Posted by Vyrerus

I'll start by saying it's OK that you hate Stormblood. You're entitled to like what you like.

Now, I'm going to ruthlessly eviscerate this post, because there's so much wrong with it, you had to have basically been tuned out to think it's Star Wars Sequel Trilogy tier garbage.

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"It's okay to not like something, but here's why you're wrong". Okay, let's chat.

To save time: A lot of your rebuttals are saying that things are memorable. Just because something is memorable doesn't make it good. I remember breaking my thumb in high school, I certainly didn't like it. Similarly, an obvious or surprise plot twist is also not always a good thing.

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I hated Zenos on my first playthrough of StB, at least until the reveals about him later in the story. His effortless trouncing of the WoL at Rhalgr's Reach really got me hot under the collar, because I found it to make little sense, at the time, but in hindsight it was the writers' way of building personal beef for the player. And again, it's still talked about and can start conversations years later.

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I could accept Zenos being stronger than the WoL if he had anything else to his characterization. He really doesn't. He wants to fight and kill because he's bored, and.....that's about it. Hell, his entire arc in Endwalker is about people throwing in his face that he's not important enough to get sidetracked over. I never got mad or felt that there was any personal stake with him. The only reaction I got out of him after his return from his suicide was "Ugh, this guy again."

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The first dungeon is the Sirensong Sea, and it is literally an unexpected encounter on the open seas. Basically, it's the storm from Dawntrail's opening, except more interesting and playable. It's basically a ship graveyard around a magitek lighthouse of some flavor. Lorelei is a German Siren equivalent. The cause of the dungeon is that enough restless spirits wound up near that old lighthouse, and caused it to be strong enough to cause the winds and Carvaillain's Ceruleum Engine to die. Basically the Lorelei lured a bunch of sailors there over the years, but at this point, was strong enough to just tractor beam ships in. The dungeon description still in game says, "The Misery was pulled off course by a mysterious force." Clearly, other people who got dragged off course died, and Carvaillain's crew had not been dragged there before. It's lowkey a FFV reference to when Syldra is separated from Faris's pirate ship by the Karlabos, and the ship is put out to drift, winding up in a ship graveyard where the party has to defeat the Siren. It turns out sea travel's not effortless, and the developers wanted the voyage to be memorable. You at least remember it, huh?

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Okay, but....seriously, what was the point? It's a spooky ship graveyard, sure, but.....why? It's a mystery they set up, never went back for, and lampshaded with the achievement that it was never going to matter. It doesn't even have a self-contained story like the Dusk Vigil or Shisui of the Violet Tides, it just happens and we move on. The storm in Dawntrail at least has consequences in the first couple of zones.

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The Ruby Sea is mostly sea, sure. But it has the tower, later known to be Heaven on High. The pirates. The Blue and Red Kojin. Sui-no-sato. Shisui of the Violet Tides. A volcano. The auspice shrine. Tons of underwater features. It's one of the best zones in the game. Especially in the expansion that introduced swimming and diving.

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And it also has a big empty water zone in the middle with little to nothing in it above the water, and a handful of setpieces underneath. The fact that we don't fight in the water also means that there's not much to do but pass over it. It just feels empty to me.

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Susano did come out of nowhere, MMO formula be damned, but defeating him was how we got the Red Kojin to not mess with us further, basically. And at least he added to the game world's lore by introducing the Far East's rendition of primals formed from "Kami."

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If anything, just being another primal feels like it shrinks the world. If he had been a kami as something distinct, he would've felt unique, but instead he's more of the same.

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Lakshmi exists to give us a reason to interact with more Ananta, and to build on their lore as a beastmen tribe. Sure, you described her direct narrative consequence, but Stormblood spent part of its run time doing world building for Etheirys. She was part of that.

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The ananta were already part of the Resistance. We could've interacted with them that way. But we needed a trial for gameplay purposes.

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You could say this about any final zone in an expansion. It's a critique that means nothing. As for what we actually did, we followed an Ala Mhigan resistance member to a salt refinery in order to make contact with the populace of the Lochs and find an in road to getting into the residential section of the city. We swam into the city. Rescued Krile and beat Fordola at the Resonance facility, thus learning part of the reason Zenos is so strong. Fought some random wolf bro conscripts to change their allegiance and reinforce the allied forces. Assaulted Ala Mhigo proper and took it back from The Empire.

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Azys Lla had a continuous story of us traveling through an Allagan hellscape, fighting through forgotten alchemical horrors and dodging Imperial troops to catch up to the Archbishop, plus the meeting with Tiamat for more dragon lore. The Tempest fleshed out the Ondo, as well as Amaurot, a massive lore dump on the Ancients. Ultima Thule has Meteion showing us broken revenents from dead races to explain her message of despair, and the Scions' refusal to surrender to fate (even if it wasn't done very well, it was there). Even Living Memory, for all its....let's say, contentious nature, still has us traveling around the zone and being active in the actual world. The Lochs has a hub, half a city that we barely access before the end of the story, and a few solo duties. We do very little in the actual map.

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The Alliance didn't forget. They just don't have war airships of their own, cause I guess the Ishgardians are just never gonna pony up and use that one from Sea of Clouds. Not just a XIV thing. Pretty historical for the Final Fantasy series to have the bad guys have air superiority to keep the good guys as scrappy underdogs. FFII, FFIV, FFIX, FFXI, FFXII, FFXIII, and FFXV all have bad guys pushing good guys back with air superiority.

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And they brought no counters for their enemies' greatest advantage. No artillery held back to fire at airships, no mages or machinists to shoot them down. They focused solely on the gates and forgot to cover their biggest weak spot. If the Domans hadn't arrived right in the nick of time, the assault would've failed before they even broke open the gate.

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The only real crime is why wouldn't a legion of Garlemald have a dreadnaught like the Gration from Heavensward in waiting? And why couldn't the Alliance take one down like they do at Ghimlyt Dark (off screen)? This is actually touching on Stormblood's real issue, which is the issue of the scale of its war scenarios. Especially vs. established lore and the like.

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Either they didn't have another dreadnaught ready at the time, or they didn't trust one to Zenos. Or he just turned it down because it would interfere with his fun. And if the Alliance could take one down later, then once again, why weren't they prepared for airships at the earlier siege?

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As for Hien and the Yols, it's established that Yols are bad ass. They're like mega fauna Taruk Makto situation from James Cameron's Avatar.

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That doesn't really explain how they could cross a hostile continent, in comparable time to ships sailing the safer sea route (likely less time, since Hien still had to actually organize enough troops on yols to make a difference, not to mention convincing the Xaela to help out again), and still arrived ready to fight. I can excuse them arriving in the nick of time as drama, but how they made it at all is questionable.

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Shinryu didn't have buildup. He was a surprise, only vaguely hinted at after his fight with Omega. He is literally controlled by Zenos, Zenos claiming mastery over The Echo gained from The Resonant procedure.

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3.5 builds up Shinryu as a mighty primal to rival Bahamut, a threat so dire that the Alliance is willing to unleash Omega to counter it. They get a big epic fight scene that ends in a double knockout. Then Zenos just has Shinryu in his back yard.

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Lyse's democratic republic council prided itself on welcoming ALL inhabitants of Gyr Abania, and she even acknowledges it's not a good idea to let them in, but we would let them in, in good faith, and perhaps mend the rift that existed with them. You know, characters trying to be good people. Yes, it can be dumb, but that's what the good and true do.

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The entire game up until that point says that tempered thralls cannot be reasoned with, and must be killed for the safety of everyone else. Inviting them in to talk flies in the face of everything the game has established about them.

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We had the explanation since Stormblood. He gained the Echo and had mastery over it, allowing him to do what Ascians do. Allowing him to do what WoL does. Come back from seemingly certain death, in a new body, of course, because that's what the bad guys do. Good guys get the Echo Ardbert edition for just getting back up, no biggie.

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Any other time we see someone body surfing, it's either an Ascian, or someone the Ascians directly taught to do it. Zenos just figures it out on his own with no explanation. It's also not really comparable to our survivability; there's a big difference between "near death" and "cut his own throat, confirmed dead, and buried".

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Tsuyu got away because no one cared enough about her to want to look after her properly. Literally probably a, "If she wanders off she'll probably die, and I want that to happen since Hien has forbidden killing her."

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They needed her alive for the hostage exchange. Letting her wander off and die would be contradictory to their own nation's interest. You'd think Hien or Yugiri would put someone more dependable in charge of watching her, knowing Gosetsu couldn't keep up with her for long, but no, she just wanders off.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

"It's okay to not like something, but here's why you're wrong". Okay, let's chat.

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Something being memorable doesn't necessarily make it good, sure. However, something being memorable is generally better than something being forgettable. If Stormblood were so forgettable you couldn't talk about it for lack of remembering, then you'd be hard pressed to slate it good OR bad, yeah? So there's at least that.


Zenos's characterization is that of being a super soldier. It's told through the lore around the Garleans' experiments into the Resonance, and him beating the WoL TWICE was supposed to be the hook to make you wonder how/why. On the most basic level it was because he was ultimately given the same power as the WoL. The Echo. The thing that's let us do all of our heroic deeds. It's kind of a big deal, and it would have been an even bigger one if we'd lost again, but, of course, the writers weren't going to let that happen.

Again, the point of the Sirensong Sea was to demonstrate the hazards of traveling the ocean while keeping them fantasy bound. Had it not been the Sirensong Sea it would have been something else. I think one of the lorebooks added in that it was a prison colony at some point that lost its supply route, so all of the prisoners died. The mass death drew in the voidsent and reanimation of the corpses there. In general heroic sense, it matters that we cleared in that no other sailors will have to ever contend with it. Not every road block in a journey needs massive consequences trailing after it. The storm for Dawntrail having massive impact on the mainland isn't unheard of, but in that case, the storm should have been traveling with us, and we would have never sailed out of it. And notice that it only impacted things that pertained to us doing things later, not to anything outside of the plot. i.e. Not anything it should have harmed, like the docks of Tulliyollal. If you want every bump in the road to have massive implications, then you gotta apply them in the way they should logically apply. Not in hamfisted, "Oh no you can't go that way, the storm damaged that specific bridge you need... and nothing else."

Susano wasn't quite the same, which was part of the allure of talking about him for quite a while. He didn't temper anybody. Didn't have summoners. Didn't have a hunger for crystals. He was different (which actually made his inclusion in the primals powering the Ragnarok in EW kind of a problem).

Hard for me to take you seriously with your Stormblood gripes when you won't actually bring up what we did in those solo duties and seem to think the fleshing out of the Ala Mhigans = nothing. While seeming to care about the Sahagins in The First. Like granted, the end zones we had in HW, SHB, and EW were visually more interesting and had more of our cast giving quests out and input with more important Lore than what went down in The Lochs, the fact remains that they were all just funnels to the final part. The Lochs instance funneling was just a whole lot more honest about it, but it's also the only final zone so far to let you walk around it, instead of FORCING you to do the story to walk around in it. HW was a series of cutscene to instance to cutscene to get to the teleporters that let you go around the islands, each island stripping away characters from you. Tempest was like The Lochs, except it blocked out half the zone until the Sahagin there moved the road block for you. Ultima Thule was just Azys Lla again but in space and with the rationale for leaving characters behind being the fake out deaths.

If the Alliance was prepared for airships, then the arrival of Hien wouldn't have mattered as much. It was all for the sake of drama. If you accept it on one hand, just accept it on the other, or don't accept it at all.

Yols are giant birds that can control wind aether. You fight yours as the boss of Bardam's Mettle. One of the themes and storytelling modes of Stormblood was strength, and that's one of the things that's part of the Zenos encounters. He's level 70 when the WoL is 61 and later 64. It's part of why you're losing. In this vein, The Yols are stronger than the Lorelei from Sirensong Sea. The Lorelei could manipulate the water of the ocean to pull ships to its island. If the Lorelei is strong enough to control a ship that can make the journey, and the Yol is stronger than that, then of course a Yol can cross the continent.

That's isn't Shinryu's Stormblood buildup. THat is the end of Heavensward's build up to Stormblood. Shinryu and Omega are absent after that until post Stormblood. Shinryu's capture by Omega is alluded to once by Zenos when he is being given the report on it before he lambasts Yotsuyu by pulling her hair. It's a confusing line, "I would expect nothing less of Bahamut's Conqueror." Lore hounds at the time got excited, because Omega was how the Allagans captured Bahamut in the first place, in order to set up his system in Dalamud. Raiders at the time thought he was talking about the WoL. That is the extent of his "build up." Stormblood was an expansion of surprise twists, which go great with budgeted cutscenes.

The blue wearing Ananta came to the meeting, which was advertised to all and to be for all Gyr Abanian inhabitants. They were not invited. They just weren't expected to take notice of the meeting. Arenvald makes the quip that, "Lyse couldn't turn them away because it would be to turn away Gyr Abanians and make her a liar." Or something like that. Also, the cannibal Qiqirn are also at the meeting, and nobody bats an eyelash. You know, the same Qiqirn from the Ziggurat that eat people as a matter of principal, not even being tempered? It's the Sharlayan ideals she was raised with coming to the fore, Alphinaud even remarks that she's expertly removed monarchy as an option by her words and deeds at the council.

It's exactly comparable because it's the same power. The WoL could body surf too, if the plot demanded that we do. And it was established that Zenos figured it out incidentally having fully expected to die, only to not be dead, and instead wind up in a Resistance member's body. Wherein he didn't do what Ascians do, and did not reform the body to fit his form, instead seeking out his own, uniquely gifted body to have again.

Sure, Hien needed her alive for the hostage exchange. But given how nearly all Domans felt about her, it's safe to say that some would want justice no matter the cost. Real issue is that his estate at the Embassy is across the river, so she woulda had to have swam across it, and that's kind of hard to believe. This gripe isn't entirely without a base, but hey, she was determined to get Gosetsu that persimmon.

After some thought, I believe for now I will be ranking Stormblood above Dawntrail (in terms of STORY) based on a single criteria: cringe. As I said in the first post, both expansions have comparable good and bad things going for them, but I think cringe is the deciding factor.

Stormblood's story was pretty uninteresting to me, and Lyse was annoying. But I don't remember having actively cringey moments in Stormblood as compared to Dawntrail.

Starting with Wuk Lamat. Similar levels of hyper-naïve idealism as Lyse, but Wuk Lamat manages to go even a bit further. "Your happiness is my happineeesss." and her "spotlight" moment in the final battle are some of the worst examples.

And remember the Dawntrail song? You know, THE song? When it was used at the conclusion of the first half I didn't mind it much, honestly. But man. The train scene HURT.

Finally, I think Zenos was overall a better villain. Zoraal Ja's "motivations" were not that great, in that regard a dude who simply just has unwarranted bloodlust works better. It's a nice change of pace from the previous villains with good motivations with flawed executions. And the moment near the beginning of Stormblood where you experience your first true defeat as champion of Eorzea was a very cool humbling moment. At the very least, I'd rather experience that than basically not being part of a story as I did in Dawntrail.

personally i would still consider Stormblood the worst but not really to say its bad,it has some nice moments and such but A big issue with Stormblood was merging ala mhigo and Doma into one expansion and Ala mhigo being the biggest shaft in history.
we pretty much know we will get more Hingashi stuff but Ala mhigo is left in the dust.

I don't tend to skip MSQ cutscenes, but I did in DT. When I'm sat there bored, it's never a good sign.

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Originally Posted by KooriGraywolf

And remember the Dawntrail song? You know, THE song? When it was used at the conclusion of the first half I didn't mind it much, honestly. But man. The train scene HURT.

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The singing while building a suicide train. Good lord.

Battle content however (specifically boss fight design) in Dawntrail are great, I appreciate the higher difficulty. And lv. 95 dungeon is one of my favorites in the whole game

I love all the expansions, including Stormblood and Dawntrail, but Heavensward has yet to be dethroned.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Stormblood was a lot more grounded. And characters were still written like human beings, acting in a believable manner. And before some brain rotted fanboy points out "hurr durr believable in a world with airships and moogles?" it's really simple. Good writing means the characters will act in a way that would be realistic for someone who grew in the kind of environment they're in, including fantastical ones. Which Dawntrail certainly doesn't do.

For that reason alone Stormblood is vastly better than Dawntrail and its shitty Disney kid show scenario.

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Either from being intentional or just (hopefully) writer inexperience, DT definitely felt like it was written for a younger audience. Plot themes that would have been treated with depth and care in previous expansions were treated in much more superficial manners. Conflicts were presented and then quickly resolved, sometimes in what felt like juvenile manners. I honestly find it hard to believe the same game that had the cutscene with Tesleen or the cutscene with Quintus had an MSQ that felt this childish.

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Originally Posted by KooriGraywolf

And remember the Dawntrail song? You know, THE song? When it was used at the conclusion of the first half I didn't mind it much, honestly. But man. The train scene HURT.

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I actually really like "Smile". However, I recall that an instrumental/non-vocal version played initially during the train rebuild scene and think they should've stuck to that - there wasn't really any need to use the full (vocal) version of "Smile". I feel "Open Sky" would've worked better and they should've kept "Smile" for the 7.0 ending cutscenes.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

I actually really like "Smile". However, I recall that an instrumental/non-vocal version played initially during the train rebuild scene and think they should've stuck to that - there wasn't really any need to use the full (vocal) version of "Smile". I feel "Open Sky" would've worked better and they should've kept "Smile" for the 7.0 ending cutscenes.

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The whole train building scene is a problem, to be honest. I mean, like almost everything in Dawntrail, it's badly written and there's no buildup. It doesn't feel earned.
By using Smile we can tell the writer wanted it to be a happy, working together bonding moment where everyone we met on our journey helped us with our goal, but...why does it matter?! It doesn't! The music feels random, because it is. The whole sequence is random.
There was no struggle involved in getting all of those people together to build a train bomb, and nothing that makes us think "wow, after so much struggle, we can count on them now!", or even "I'm so happy to see those guys again!". At that moment, we are much more focused on our plan to break the dome instead of how to get the train together. The quest makes us think there's an element of urgency and thinking of the technical parts of putting the train together while we are worried for the people that were there, then it suddenly tries to be a character bonding moment where Wuk Lamat got everyone together by the power of peace and happiness. Open Sky would've felt just as bad.

They should've just played Machinations again.

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

The whole train building scene is a problem, to be honest. I mean, like almost everything in Dawntrail, it's badly written and there's no buildup. It doesn't feel earned.
By using Smile we can tell the writer wanted it to be a happy, working together bonding moment where everyone we met on our journey helped us with our goal, but...why does it matter?! It doesn't! The music feels random, because it is. The whole sequence is random.
There was no struggle involved in getting all of those people together to build a train bomb, and nothing that makes us think "wow, after so much struggle, we can count on them now!", or even "I'm so happy to see those guys again!". At that moment, we are much more focused on our plan to break the dome instead of how to get the train together. The quest makes us think there's an element of urgency and thinking of the technical parts of putting the train together while we are worried for the people that were there, then it suddenly tries to be a character bonding moment where Wuk Lamat got everyone together by the power of peace and happiness. Open Sky would've felt just as bad.

They should've just played Machinations again.

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Fair points. Except for the comment about Machinations; that hideous noise is an instant 'mute button' click for me every time.

Stormblood to me is vastly superior when it comes to MSQ and characters despite certain things. We lost brother Papalymo, the voice of reason among the Scions. RIP.
Wuk Lamat is a 2 compared to Lyse that would be a 5 at her worst and an 8 at her best.
The raids, trials and duties in Dawntrail are top notch so far but Omega was really, really good. Made Midgardsormr my favorite character in all of FF14.
I also enjoyed the raids, liked the ending quite a lot. I am a sentimental man and being able to give a final rest and farewell to the Ivalice heroes was very touching.

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Originally Posted by koko-on-da-forumz

...We also know in hindsight that Stormblood's patch cycles were top tier. The jobs were fun, Eureka kept the community active (and the community was smaller, closer-knit, and not so....horny and pathetic?), Omega is imo the perfect difficulty for Savage, introduction of UCOB, Blue Mage, actual relics, it was a great time to play.

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The only part of Stormblood I enjoyed was Doma. I genuinely didn't care at all what happened to the Ala Mhigans [Some kill Fordola's father in front of her when she was a kid and did probably who knows what other awful things to her and her mother growing up that we didn't see, and then do the surprise Pikachu shocked face when Fordola comes help keep them in check alongside the Garleans, GEE I WONDER WHY.] and Lyse really is just Wuk Lamat but much more tolerable. Meanwhile I absolutely loved Doma, although I might be biased because I really enjoyed Yotsuyu as a character and the entire aesthetic of the whole place and all the zones.

As you said, in hindsight, Stormblood patch cycles were STACKED. Eureka, the Omega Raid Series, the Ivalice Alliance series, Blue Mage, both UcoB and UWU, the 4 lords side trial quest. Sure the MSQ and post MSQ was pretty bad, but you cannot deny they made up for it with what the 4.X series of patches gave the players content wise.

There are a lot of things coming during the patch cycles of Dawntrail. Beastmaster, the FF11 alliance raids, Eden Ultimate, the relic grind, the new Eureka/Bozja area, Cosmic Exploration, and more. They certainly started off strong with The Arcadion, both story and battle wise, but we've got 2 years of Dawntrail to go through. If Dawntrail is shaping up to just be Stormblood 2.0, then the 7.X series of patches HAVE to deliver banger after banger after banger content wise.

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Originally Posted by KooriGraywolf

I am having a hard time deciding in my mind whether I place Stormblood or Dawntrail higher (granted, we've still got Dawntrail patches pending). I might also be forgetting too much about Stormblood, or have Dawntrail too fresh in my mind. So help me make up my mind?

I do have some pointers:

Dawntrail pros:

• Overall premise is more interesting, personally. I could not care about Ala Mhigans and revolution/patriotic themes do not speak to me. The rite of succession and the subsequent twists seemed more compelling
• Zones/dungeons and their themes are way more interesting
• Mamool Ja lore reveal was a genuinely good writing moment
• Music is more bangin'

Dawntrail cons:

• Wuk Lamat mentioning peace every 5 seconds and getting way too much spotlight
• The activities in the zones were way too formulaic. Reaching literally every zone was "ok, let's get to know the locals". Stormblood at least had a more fluid and unpredictable sequence of events
• Barely any dark/gritty/philosophical writing moments, which we've come to expect after the last 2 stories
• Despite the FF9 nods, I expected more direct references, and the use of FF9 music felt forced at times
• The WoL was extremely unimportant to the story. We contributed nothing. I only got that feeling back when I started the Arcadion
• The high stakes at the end also felt too forced in. I know we need stakes but do we again need something world-ending? (by comparison, Heavensward was very grounded/contained and yet it's my favorite story in the whole game. I hoped for something like that)
• Despite the cool Mamool Ja reveal, how can the story try to force us to be sympathetic towards Bakool Ja Ja right away? I understand the need to win, but doing things like insulting Wuk Lamat have nothing to do with that

I am undecided whether I prefer Wuk Lamat over Lyse. If we removed the excessive obsession with peace, Wuk Lamat could've had a MUCH better personally, but alas we do have that and again the excessive spotlight time did not help.

Another good point to Stormblood, it gave us Sadu and Cirina (who I also really liked)

Am I forgetting anything?

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I personally prefer the designs of zones and dungeons and the music better from Stormblood. But this are personal tastes.

On the other hand: I don't care shit about someone I don't fucking know to help them. At least the Ala Mhigan really needed our help, war with Garleans would be happening sooner or later, this indeed affects Eorzea, the tribes of the Steppe were better and alliances between countries are far more interesting that a rite based on a recipe, capturing an animal, and more stupid things. Also for someone who didn't care to get out of her comfort zone to learn of her people when she says all the time she knows about them and shit, I won't move a finger.

For the MSQ Story, I am going to have to say Dawntrail does sit in my opinion at least as the weakest one. The combat is still as good as ever but the story really took a hit this expansion compared to the writing of previous ones

Personally i try to compare Stormblood 4.0 only, without the patches, to Dawntrail and i have to say i like Dawntrail more. Maybe it is because i expectet Dawntrail to not be good from the beginning.

To Wuk Lamat i have to say that i understand why many players dont like her. Her naiviti is more present then with lyse but with Wuk Lamat you see how she learns during the story and not at the end like it was withe Lyse.

The Worldbuilding is in both expansions good. The diffrence is what you prefer. In Stormblood i liked the Othard part with Kugane, Ruby Sea Doma and the Azim-steppe better then the Ala Mihgen part. With Dawntrail i liked the succession Part better then the Ala Mihgen part. The second half of Dawntrail is only slightly weaker then the Othard Part of Stormblood.

Finaly Stormblood and Lyse got only better with the Patch-Storys so yeah i hope they will hold that trek with Dawntrail too.

Stb hands down. And as a 1.0 player. I would never say 1.0 is better however I will say at least with it.

That was a real brand new beginning and deserved to get the slack for starting a new adventure.

This notion that just because DT is a new start means it should get a pass for how absolutely terrible the writing is, is absolutely ridiculous and shows how much people are willing to shill for SE.

Lets get a few things straight.

This expansion has massive plot holes, bad character development, 2000s disney show level logic world building and the hand holding a parent needs for a 3 year old with ADHD.

In short its is not even in the same ballpark as base ARR or even base STB.

With those even though the base games have some issues. 90% of their MSQ makes logical sense, the world building is not hampered by the obsession of the stupidly of characters being the center of attention.

Overall its fine to like DT over StB. However objectively if you take a step back and look at they where back and put together and their stories where told.

It is easy to say DT is much much worse from a quality standpoint. An easy metric to even ask yourself this is are others enjoying this?

Like it is obvious there is alot of people who never skip msq who actively are now. That should be a major red flag to people.

If a person like me who on this account alone has sent over 288 days of playtime who is primarily loves the msq and replays it in ng+ started skipping DT CS. Then the game has major issue's. Because if a diehard like me doesn't like it.

Its very very very likely alot of others don't either. Thats not ment to be narcissistic, it's just ment to point out that I have been in this community so long that I have a good idea of how lot of players feel about this expansion.

Its really going to come down to patch content weather DT gets labeled better than StB or not. Hopefully it does. If I understand the developers as well as I believe I do.

I honestly believe this expansions patch content will be hands down the best out of all the previous expansions. However for msq its is definitely a alot of work for them.

The community is most certainly split on this expansion and that is never good. The last time we where this split on an expansion was oddly enough was StB and it is by all accounts considered the worse by alot of people to this day.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

For me, it also never made sense why Lyse became the prominent leader of Ala Mhigo versus Raubhan

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And ... that's why she's isn't?

At the beginning of SB she was kind of a necessity symbol due to the legacy of her family, and the resistance had a strong distrust of outsider while at the same time fractured. She had to step up because there was literally no other options.

The main difference between Lyse and Wuk is never once Lyse see herself as a (deserved) leader, she's fully aware of her limitation, often to the point of self-deprecated. Once Raubhan entered the picture, she immediately defer to him.

As for why she often found seating at the Alliance table representing Ala Mihigo, I think that's simply because her background make her the best representation. As an ex-scion she already have a working relationship with all of the other nations head, no one from Ala Mhigo is more suitable to the role of an ambassador than her.