Character disconnect and disappointing Player Agency in Dawntrail's MSQ [Spoilers]

I really missed being snarky and actually having the Scions and other relevant NPCs surprised or shocked at the snark. Agreeing that

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Originally Posted by RabendaShin

The time this disconnect hit me hardest was when Wuk Lamat asked me to refer to her as "lamaty'i", a term of endearment reserved for family. I had not particularly enjoyed much of my time glued to the third promise, so I opted to respond with the usually delightful "..." option expecting at least a somewhat snide comment. Instead, one of the Scions, a character I care for and trust, informs Wuk my character is "at a loss for words" for being asked this.

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Super agreeing with this! I remember when that happened I was like, yeah I’m at a loss for words because we’re not friends like that. Not because I’m just so happy and grateful the Princess is letting me use her nickname. I’m pretty sure any options we got after that if her nickname was used in the option I picked anything but that. Even if it was wildly out of character for my WoL, it’d still make more sense than calling her Lamaty’i.

Also as I go through this again on my alts, and maybe Elden Ring DLC is leaking into my thoughts lol, but treating how WoL (and the Scions to tbh) like they’ve been charmed/bewitched by Wuk Lamat into positivity puppets for her makes it a little more like some horror game and kinda makes why everyone is not themselves a tad bit more palatable. Or IDK another media comparison maybe like we’re Agatha from WandaVision and the next MSQ patches will be our spin off series where we’re free from Wuk and get to go on a journey to return to at minimum being an Adventurer and not an emotional support WoL.

There was a thread on reddit that honestly points to a large part of why I didn't enjoy MSQ much, Wuk Lamat aside, and it was the fact that we literally just STAND AROUND whenever shit is going down.

We just defeated Zarool Ja and Sphere is walking towards the extremely powerful relic lying on the ground? Better let her walk through the group and stare menacingly instead of grabbing her and being like "The hell are you doing?"

Zarool Ja just fatally wounded Gulool Ja Ja? Let's just watch him die since it's not like we're specced to a class that literally has the ability to heal people by rewinding time/altering their fate.

Wuk Lamat getting kidnapped in plain sight of literally every single scion? Eh, let's just look away so we have to do some quests where we have to rescue Wuk Lamat instead of talk to her and really spice things up.

Not to mention how suddenly we become powerless when the enemy takes a hostage, like oh no, some low-level lizards are holding Wookie's father hostage, sure wish I had Rescue or Cover or some sort of gapcloser or barrier skill so I can close the gap and one shot them. No? Well, I guess it makes sense since Wookie needs her 1000x powerup, and a 5 minute duty against a slightly less pathetic low level threat is enough to explain it away.

Just, god, can we actually do something aside from standing around and talking to Wuk Lamat? It's like the Devs went "Sorry, we don't have the budget for you to do something, but you have another dungeon in 2 levels so you can do something then. Battle quest? Sorry, no budget for that either, also no budget for us to make you use an animation and our writers aren't talented enough to make a situation that doesn't require you to stand around for the bad thing to unfold."

Instant fix to the storyline:

Wuk Lamat presents all of us to the Dawnservant and he goes "I see you, warrior", turns to Wuk Lamat and says "You may select two from those you have assembled, my daughter, but this one will not be partaking in any active party partaking in the Rite." He'd then request us to remain behind after Wuk Lamat walks off disappointed and confused. "Warrior", he would say, "I want you to monitor all four of the candidates from afar; this Rite was designed to cultivate a leader, and all four of them show imbalance and are unfit to fully understand the lessons I learned before I was Dawnservant. I will give you full reign of the island so that you may read into the land and its cultures while preventing the young ones from killing each other should it come to that. If and when you are compelled to step in, see it done. I'm sure that if my brother was awake, he would agree." And then you proceed to monitor and talk with your scattered companions and the four contestants, coming across each of them and sharing your knowledge and wisdom to better prepare them for their challenges without being forced to cheerlead Wuk Lamat EXCLUSIVELY while getting to know the other three in their own ways. Valigardmanda would be released when all four of them came to a heated argument, and the consequences of their outburst would release the giant beast. We, as a true mentor, would intervene and demand all four of them fight alongside you to fix their mistake and save the nation upon vanquish, et cetera et cetera. Many ways this story could have been great instead of heavily one-sided to paint a third-grader's perspective of how people interact with one another.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

There was a thread on reddit that honestly points to a large part of why I didn't enjoy MSQ much, Wuk Lamat aside, and it was the fact that we literally just STAND AROUND whenever shit is going down.

We just defeated Zarool Ja and Sphere is walking towards the extremely powerful relic lying on the ground? Better let her walk through the group and stare menacingly instead of grabbing her and being like "The hell are you doing?"

Zarool Ja just fatally wounded Gulool Ja Ja? Let's just watch him die since it's not like we're specced to a class that literally has the ability to heal people by rewinding time/altering their fate.

Wuk Lamat getting kidnapped in plain sight of literally every single scion? Eh, let's just look away so we have to do some quests where we have to rescue Wuk Lamat instead of talk to her and really spice things up.

Not to mention how suddenly we become powerless when the enemy takes a hostage, like oh no, some low-level lizards are holding Wookie's father hostage, sure wish I had Rescue or Cover or some sort of gapcloser or barrier skill so I can close the gap and one shot them. No? Well, I guess it makes sense since Wookie needs her 1000x powerup, and a 5 minute duty against a slightly less pathetic low level threat is enough to explain it away.

Just, god, can we actually do something aside from standing around and talking to Wuk Lamat? It's like the Devs went "Sorry, we don't have the budget for you to do something, but you have another dungeon in 2 levels so you can do something then. Battle quest? Sorry, no budget for that either, also no budget for us to make you use an animation and our writers aren't talented enough to make a situation that doesn't require you to stand around for the bad thing to unfold."

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The baffling thing is the role-quests have WoL be more animated. MSQ does "pull out weapon, told to sit down" over and over, while in the role quests WoL is actually the one emoting other characters to stand down when we are exactly in the same kind of hostage situation the MSQ uses as an excuse to make the character completely passive.

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Originally Posted by RabendaShin

[B][SIZE="3"]Had my character opted not to support Wuk Lamat in her claim for the throne, what would have changed?

• The four claimants would have done their trials, and then Gulool Ja Ja would probably have decided none of them were fit to rule.
• Most of the people we helped in the trials all were more than able to fix their own problems, they didn't need us present to fix their fields, find them workers, or cook their local dish. Even if they needed actual help, I am certain Koana could have helped.
• There would have been harsh consequences for Bakool Ja Ja's antics.
• Zoraal Ja would have thrown a tantrum, but he wouldn't have had a cheat death device, nor would Yyasulani have been destroyed.

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So your assumption is that everyone would have been nuked by Galool Ja Ja's shade and none of them would have found the gate?
Not sure if I'd concur with that assessment.

Koana / Bakool-Ja Ja would possibly have been able to do that and then they'd found the Gate and the story would have unfolded in very much the same way.

To say that it is our fault that Yusalaani gets blasted is absurd.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Not to mention how suddenly we become powerless when the enemy takes a hostage, like oh no, some low-level lizards are holding Wookie's father hostage, sure wish I had Rescue or Cover or some sort of gapcloser or barrier skill so I can close the gap and one shot them. No? Well, I guess it makes sense since Wookie needs her 1000x powerup, and a 5 minute duty against a slightly less pathetic low level threat is enough to explain it away."

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So this is why we lost Plunge and Rough Divide...

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Originally Posted by Granyala

So your assumption is that everyone would have been nuked by Galool Ja Ja's shade and none of them would have found the gate?
Not sure if I'd concur with that assessment.

Koana / Bakool-Ja Ja would possibly have been able to do that and then they'd found the Gate and the story would have unfolded in very much the same way.

To say that it is our fault that Yusalaani gets blasted is absurd.

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Exactly.
The story would have been overall the same.
Valigarmanda was weakened and not only is it ever mentioned that we were critical to the victory or even did anything more then the others, the wandering Minstrel even just calls us Wuk Lamats other dudes more or less.

The dungeons would have been the same.
Wuk Lamat would have been the same.
I bet even the whole Wild West bracelet scene would have not changed.

The only thing that could have been different is Krile and her parents because we tell her who they are and maybe, maybe the final boss. But even later would have probably been defeated because either than red or Estinien would have went with the others.

Heck, without us maybe even Bagool JaJa would have teamed up with them.

I really liked the story, but I understand why some didn't.

I will note a lot of stories don't necessarily need the main protagonist. In Shadowbringers and Endwalker we are important and special, but I would say Heavensward, Stormblood, and ARR would not be especially different if not for us. If we sat out many of the events would go rougly the same save for how our presence inspires others to act, which is exactly what happens in Dawntrail. Stories are not just a literal sequence of events where the importance of a character is their strict utility in changing the outcome of events, characters have thematic importance too. I think most people like Erenville and he basically does absolutely nothing in the story. If he was gone almost no events change but the entire story becomes worse.

Our imporance in Dawntrail was as a mentor figure for Wuk Lamat, a character going through a pretty classic coming of age story. We basically got to be what Thancred was to Ryne, and I don't think many would say Thancred was pointless in that story arc. Likewise, the fact all these people's problems would be kinda solved on their own isn't the point (and also isn't true, the resolution of blessed siblings and the redemption of Bakool Ja would *definitely* not have happened without Wuk Lamat being there with some lessons she learned from the WoL, and that is a major status quo change for the nation), the point is that it illustrates a philosophy the game has about leadership through Wuk Lamat learning it. Its... honestly a pretty basic narrative, "the test is a lesson," but it is a tried and true narrative and saying "the story would be the same if everyone failed the test because everyone actually didn't strictly need help" strikes me as an almost... Cinema Sins style 'plothole ding' complaint that ignores how narratives work.

The problem is that isn't the story arc we really got signed up for. We were her champion before her dad basically laid his intentions bare to us, giving us secret information and making us basically insiders on the trial. It probably would go a lot better for those not 100% on board with Wuk Lamat if that scene came way earlier in the story (ex: We agree to go with her to the New World but have a talk with her father basically immediately after the initial tour). It gives a good context to why the WoL is doing what they are doing even if they don't support Wuk Lamat, because they know if she isn't actually worthy she won't win and they are merely helping her grow to potentially be worthy. If you like Wuk Lamat (I did) that isn't necessary, but it helps justify way better why a Wuk Lamat skeptic would be running around helping her realize what being a leader actually is.

As for the final scene, I agree it is a bit rough that Wuk Lamat jumps in. It would have been better if all the characters with you did it, even if Wuk Lamat got top billing, or at least Krile also interceding so its more about the characters with a strong connection to Alexandria being there for the end.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

I really liked the story, but I understand why some didn't.
...Our imporance in Dawntrail was as a mentor figure for Wuk Lamat, a character going through a pretty classic coming of age story. We basically got to be what Thancred was to Ryne, and I don't think many would say Thancred was pointless in that story arc. Likewise, the fact all these people's problems would be kinda solved on their own isn't the point (and also isn't true, the resolution of blessed siblings and the redemption of Bakool Ja would *definitely* not have happened without Wuk Lamat being there with some lessons she learned from the WoL, and that is a major status quo change for the nation), the point is that it illustrates a philosophy the game has about leadership through Wuk Lamat learning it. Its... honestly a pretty basic narrative, "the test is a lesson," but it is a tried and true narrative and saying "the story would be the same if everyone failed the test because everyone actually didn't strictly need help" strikes me as very poor media literacy, because the vast majority of stories are about characters learning and growing and have events that would not really be important to resolve if not for the characters. ...

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Where in this story do you mentor jack? You don't ever once give any advice or say anything the other characters act on. You are just there to "agree with Wuk Lamat". The only time in the MSQ you get a chance to disagree with her, you are immediately overruled by the scions and told point blank... "We should do what Wuk Lamat want's, after all we are only here to support her."

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

Our imporance in Dawntrail was as a mentor figure for Wuk Lamat, a character going through a pretty classic coming of age story. We basically got to be what Thancred was to Ryne, and I don't think many would say Thancred was pointless in that story arc. Likewise, the fact all these people's problems would be kinda solved on their own isn't the point (and also isn't true, the resolution of blessed siblings and the redemption of Bakool Ja would *definitely* not have happened without Wuk Lamat being there with some lessons she learned from the WoL, and that is a major status quo change for the nation), the point is that it illustrates a philosophy the game has about leadership through Wuk Lamat learning it. Its... honestly a pretty basic narrative, "the test is a lesson," but it is a tried and true narrative and saying "the story would be the same if everyone failed the test because everyone actually didn't strictly need help" strikes me as an almost... Cinema Sins style 'plothole ding' complaint that ignores how narratives work.

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Huh, are you sure we are her mentor? Or did you mistype 'Cheerleading Slave' ? This 'mentor figure' is being used by Dawntrail defenders alot

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Originally Posted by Karkarov

Where in this story do you mentor jack? You don't ever once give any advice or say anything the other characters act on. You are just there to "agree with Wuk Lamat". The only time in the MSQ you get a chance to disagree with her, you are immediately overruled by the scions and told point blank... "We should do what Wuk Lamat want's, after all we are only here to support her."

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I don't have that recollection of the character at all. In fact, I would say Wuk Lamat's main flaw in the first half of the story is that she is an extremely passive character that you, the Scions, and Erenville (especially Erenville) to actually keep her on task. You need to lead around to accomplish anything, and her contributions are pretty minor (Thinking the festival is the important bit, and having a supporter during the trading questline).

Like Erenville's entire character for most of the first third of the story is 'Wuk Lamat wrangler.' She is portrayed as pretty seriously flawed early on and constantly goes to the WoL and has dialogue choices that amount to "I am unsure of how to do this" or "I lack confidence" and you basically get an (admittedly pretty basic) set of responses like 'Think about the people who depend on you' or whatever, or they do the thing where you silently talk and she goes 'oh that is good advice.'

If that didn't land for you, its fine, but I think its disingenuous to say 'There is literally no way you could interpret your character as having a mentorship relationship with this character' when the king *explicitly* asks you to have one. Like its not nothing, obviously, its literally not even subtext, its the literal text of the story.

I will say one other thing I do think is a legit problem with Wuk Lamat though, she gets way too much voiced screentime. I actually liked the voice actress, but even though most of the characters do contribute a lot all over the story, the fact that a lot of the moments where everyone is working together to solve a problem is unvoiced while the times where Wuk Lamat is having a moment are voiced does mean she is very 'over exposed' in this expansion.

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Originally Posted by fioravictorine

Huh, are you sure we are her mentor? Or did you mistype 'Cheerleading Slave' ? This 'mentor figure' is being used by Dawntrail defenders alot

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Are we Alphinauld's cheerleading slave in Heavensward? That story is basically us literally doing everything he or Aymeric says and using his solution for literally every problem. It doesn't even have the moments were Wuk Lamat explicitly asks us for advice on how to proceed, which very much DO exist (ex: Its a lot of the trading questline, for example).

Are we gunna pretend that XIV was ever anything but the side characters basically acting as gentle tour guides through a linear story? Did you actually expect branching paths where you could fight to ensure Wuk Lamat doesn't get on the throne, or the WoL to break down what is clearly a good (even if you find her annoying, its hard to argue Wuk Lamat is a morally bad person) person who needs encouragement?

Like what are you actually expecting? If you think Wuk Lamat is annoying, that is valid (again, she has... way too much voiced screentime, its actually a bit absurd). But arguing the story construction sidelines us to being someone's beatstick and problem solver is actively stupid because that is what every expansion has been besides Endwalker. We do what Minfilia/Alphinauld/Aymeric/Hein/The Exarch says the plan is because they are the guys and gals with the plan, inspire some NPCs around us when they have doubts about their plans, impress some major characters with our power and resolve, beat the bad guys up, serve up the next expansion. Dawntrail gave us a different rationale for doing it, but its the same thing we always do, to the point its literally a running joke in the game our neck muscles are super strong because we just agree with people around us all the time.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

I will note a lot of stories don't necessarily need the main protagonist. In Shadowbringers and Endwalker we are important and special, but I would say Heavensward, Stormblood, and ARR would not be especially different if not for us. If we sat out many of the events would go rougly the same save for how our presence inspires others to act, which is exactly what happens in Dawntrail.

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I am so tired of hearing this same argument. Every time someone say they don't like the story, it's because "They're not the main character". You stated yourself that in Heavensward, Stormblood, and ARR, the WoL did not play the main character role. Have you not stopped to ask yourself, if it has been done before, why were people okay with it then, and not with this? Almost everyone who finished Endwalker went through ARR, Heavensward, and Stormblood, did they only choose NOW to suddenly say the new story's bad? Can you at least read everyone's opinions before putting them all under the same blanket of "Not the main character"?

Personally, I'm fine with the WoL not being the main character like in Heavensward, but even then, Heavensward gave them SOMETHING to do. A reason to be where they were, a reason to do what they did. It also helped that Alphinaud, Ysayle, and Estinien were well written characters, and there wasn't any Mary Sue stealing the spotlight from them. Even when people complained about Stormblood, Lyse didn't steal the spotlight from other characters like Mary Sue did. It was the WoL who had a solo instance fight with Zenos, and we actually lost the first time. When we met Hien, we had time to learn about Hien, Lyse wasn't there for Hien to immediately love and worship. And when we defeated Shinryu, Lyse didn't come in to steal the credits for doing 1% of the job.

Maybe, just maybe, the "main character" part is not really the thing that makes people enjoy FFXIV's story? Maybe it's the lack of Mary Sue?

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

Are we Alphinauld's cheerleading slave in Heavensward? That story is basically us literally doing everything he or Aymeric says and using his solution for literally every problem. It doesn't even have the moments were Wuk Lamat explicitly asks us for advice on how to proceed, which very much DO exist (ex: Its a lot of the trading questline, for example).

Are we gunna pretend that XIV was ever anything but the side characters basically acting as gentle tour guides through a linear story? Did you actually expect branching paths where you could fight to ensure Wuk Lamat doesn't get on the throne, or the WoL to break down what is clearly a good (even if you find her annoying, its hard to argue Wuk Lamat is a morally bad person) person who needs encouragement?

Like what are you actually expecting? If you think Wuk Lamat is annoying, that is valid (again, she has... way too much voiced screentime, its actually a bit absurd). But arguing the story construction sidelines us to being someone's beatstick and problem solver is actively stupid because that is what every expansion has been besides Endwalker. We do what Minfilia/Alphinauld/Aymeric/Hein/The Exarch says the plan is because they are the guys and gals with the plan, inspire some NPCs around us, impress some major characters with our power and resolve, beat the bad guys up, serve up the next expansion. Dawntrail gave us a different rationale for doing it, but its the same thing we always do, to the point its literally a running joke in the game our neck muscles are super strong because we just agree with people around us all the time.

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Honestly a good point, but I think the difference between the previous expansions and DT is that having the story centered around us and having us doing a LOT of the heavy lifting is that is masks a lot of the writing flaws and helps spur attachment to the storyline instead of picking it apart like we do with DT.

There's plenty of "Why don't we just kick their butts instead of staring?" moments in previous expansions, but because the spotlight is on us, they can hide the trash (Bad writing, being slaves to the plot, not having all that much agency) in the darkness, where with Llama Tea and us being forced to watch Slideshows for 5 hours before finally doing a dungeon, since the spotlight is on her we can clearly see the trash pile she's standing on and all the disgusting flies buzzing around.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

Are we Alphinauld's cheerleading slave in Heavensward? That story is basically us literally doing everything he or Aymeric says and using his solution for literally every problem. It doesn't even have the moments were Wuk Lamat explicitly asks us for advice on how to proceed, which very much DO exist (ex: Its a lot of the trading questline, for example).

Are we gunna pretend that XIV was ever anything but the side characters basically acting as gentle tour guides through a linear story? Did you actually expect branching paths where you could fight to ensure Wuk Lamat doesn't get on the throne, or the WoL to break down what is clearly a good (even if you find her annoying, its hard to argue Wuk Lamat is a morally bad person) person who needs encouragement?

Like what are you actually expecting? If you think Wuk Lamat is annoying, that is valid (again, she has... way too much voiced screentime, its actually a bit absurd). But arguing the story construction sidelines us to being someone's beatstick and problem solver is actively stupid because that is what every expansion has been besides Endwalker. We do what Minfilia/Alphinauld/Aymeric/Hein/The Exarch says the plan is because they are the guys and gals with the plan, inspire some NPCs around us when they have doubts about their plans, impress some major characters with our power and resolve, beat the bad guys up, serve up the next expansion. Dawntrail gave us a different rationale for doing it, but its the same thing we always do, to the point its literally a running joke in the game our neck muscles are super strong because we just agree with people around us all the time.

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Please don't bring up HW and other expansions into this, that would be a totally different discussion

I mean, I am glad you agree that Wuk can be annoying but don't shift the goalpost and topic...can you elaborate on how are we a mentor figure to Wuk? I just don't see it? Just the trading questline? She could've asked anyone else and get the same result

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Originally Posted by Seiki_Kisaki

Can you at least read everyone's opinions before putting them all under the same blanket of "Not the main character"?

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If you re-read what I said, you may notice I didn't say 'Anyone who doesn't like Dawntrail doesn't like it because they think they are the main character when they shouldn't be.'

What I actually wrote was 'There are reasons to dislike the story, even though I liked it, but saying 'we are not the main character' is very stupid because we never were.' Which is an argument some people obviously were making.

If that doesn't apply to you, that is fantastic! But perhaps you should yourself read other people's opinions first before leaping to the defense of your justification for not liking the story. It undercuts your actually good point that the way it was executed was different.

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Originally Posted by fioravictorine

Please don't bring up HW and other expansions into this, that would be a totally different discussion

I mean, I am glad you agree that Wuk can be annoying but don't shift the goalpost and topic...can you elaborate on how are we a mentor figure to Wuk? I just don't see it? Just the trading questline? She could've asked anyone else and get the same result

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Its not shifting the topic. I am pointing out a disconnect by making a comparison. It isn't moving the goalposts to point to another expansion that had a fairly similar structure (road trip with a learning moment for a young NPC, this time Alphinauld, learning how to be a leader and hero) that was also linear and forced you to cheerlead the character. If you liked HW but didn't like DT, it probably means you are ok with being a cheerleader and some aspect of being a cheerleader for Alphinauld felt better than Wuk Lamat, even though you have more scenes where Wuk Lamat asks you or the party what to do than in HW.

I think you perhaps pointed out what is important for you, which is feeling like your doing the heavy lifting. It is very fair to point out that DT's first half is VERY low stakes. So even though your always being pointed at a problem or basically directed by the gaggle of NPCs, in HW its stuff like 'Alphinauld figures out you need to do this awesome thing' while in DT its 'Erinvelle figures out you need 5 bear asses.' Then in the back half once she grows determined and the stakes are high she is also a lot more assertive (And also like low key some of the plot construction of THAT half isn't great).

As for moments you actually mentored Wuk Lamat or guided her, most of the trading questline, and the immediate aftermath of the attack where you talk to her about the burden of being someone who can help but sometimes fails. She also basically never comes up with the idea on how to progress any of the challenges save for the last one and the one with the festival. Usually its Erinvelle who actually leads the way with his cultural knowledge that guides Wuk Lamat towards the right answer, its his main purpose in the first half of the story as her more traveled childhood friend. She is actually a *really* passive and uncertain charactrer, especially outside of voiced cutscenes.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

If that didn't land for you, its fine, but I think its disingenuous to say 'There is literally no way you could interpret your character as having a mentorship relationship with this character' when the king *explicitly* asks you to have one. Like its not nothing, obviously, its literally not even subtext, its the literal text of the story.

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Wrangling a 7 foot tall toddler does not really equate to mentoring anything, even with them trying to use that word. We're babysitters.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

Its not shifting the topic. I am pointing out a disconnect by making a comparison. It isn't moving the goalposts to point to another expansion that had a fairly similar structure (road trip with a learning moment for a young NPC, this time Alphinauld, learning how to be a leader and hero) that was also linear and forced you to cheerlead the character. If you liked HW but didn't like DT, it probably means you are ok with being a cheerleader and some aspect of being a cheerleader for Alphinauld felt better than Wuk Lamat, even though you have more scenes where Wuk Lamat asks you or the party what to do than in HW.

I think you perhaps pointed out what is important for you, which is feeling like your doing the heavy lifting. It is very fair to point out that DT's first half is VERY low stakes. So even though your always being pointed at a problem or basically directed by the gaggle of NPCs, in HW its stuff like 'Alphinauld figures out you need to do this awesome thing' while in DT its 'Erinvelle figures out you need 5 bear asses.' Then in the back half once she grows determined and the stakes are high she is also a lot more assertive (And also like low key some of the plot construction of THAT half isn't great).

As for moments you actually mentored Wuk Lamat or guided her, most of the trading questline, and the immediate aftermath of the attack where you talk to her about the burden of being someone who can help but sometimes fails. She also basically never comes up with the idea on how to progress any of the challenges save for the last one and the one with the festival. Usually its Erinvelle who actually leads the way with his cultural knowledge that guides Wuk Lamat towards the right answer, its his main purpose in the first half of the story as her more traveled childhood friend. She is actually a *really* passive and uncertain charactrer, especially outside of voiced cutscenes.

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Um no, I think you are making an unfair comparison. We are not the 'mentor figure' to anyone in those expansions, and HW is not an Alphinaud-as-MC only expansion.

Also the examples you cited are pretty superficial and you even brought in Erenville. Like I said in the trading questline, she could've asked anyone else and arrive in the same conclusion by herself. So I ask again, how is the WoL a mentor figure to Wuk Lamat?

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Originally Posted by fioravictorine

Um no, I think you are making an unfair comparison. We are not the 'mentor figure' to anyone in those expansions, and HW is not an Alphinaud-as-MC only expansion.

Also the examples you cited are pretty superficial and you even brought in Erenville. Like I said in the trading questline, she could've asked anyone else and arrive in the same conclusion by herself. So I ask again, how is the WoL a mentor figure to Wuk Lamat?

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They are superficial because our involvement with literally every plot is superficial. We literally can only talk to people by making a choice of 2-3 dialogue choices that can't ever alter the actual plot. "That isn't a good enough example" isn't an actual counter-argument, the fact is the story does establish that Wuk Lamat looks up to us and looks to us for guidance and our influence does change how she views the world.

As for HW, the first half is pretty explicitly a coming of age story for Alphinauld where he comes into his own and realizes what he should do after the disaster of the Crystal Braves and his confidence is utterly shattered. Its why the firewood scene (which is mostly Estinien's moment with him, not yours) is so legendary. He freaks out utterly over being able to accomplish ANYTHING, and that road trip half culminates with the two adults with him breaking and him meanwhile becoming more resolved. Our involvement in that story is pretty much cheerleading Alphinauld, and he would have gotten there without us. But it wasn't pointless either, and it sets him up for the ultimate end of the story where he (and you) rescue Estinien by refusing to give in to cynicism. Alphinauld, low key, was the main character of HW, he was the one with an arc who grew and changed. It just did a good job of hiding that by having you fight a big dragon. He even shoves into the the ultimate moment of triumph just like Wuk Lamat, but in a cutscene!

A really big difference between the two is the stakes of the 'coming of age' portion (again, cool adventures ending a horrible war vs bear asses). The other is the back half of DT is... not the strongest IMO, which is a problem when your first half is trying to set up a secret lead for the second and the second half just isn't great, which does a lot more to hurt Wuk Lamat as a character in my opinion than 'we support her' which like... duh of course we do. That is literally what we do as the WoL.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

They are superficial because our involvement with literally every plot is superficial. We literally can only talk to people by making a choice of 2-3 dialogue choices that can't ever alter the actual plot. "That isn't a good enough example" isn't an actual counter-argument, the fact is the story does establish that Wuk Lamat looks up to us and looks to us for guidance and our influence does change how she views the world.

As for HW, the first half is pretty explicitly a coming of age story for Alphinauld where he comes into his own and realizes what he should do after the disaster of the Crystal Braves and his confidence is utterly shattered. Its why the firewood scene is so legendary. He freaks out utterly over being able to accomplish ANYTHING, and that road trip half culminates with the two adults with him breaking and him meanwhile becoming more resolved. Our involvement in that story is pretty much cheerleading Alphinauld, and he would have gotten there without us. But it wasn't pointless either.

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I duno, you keep strawmanning away from my question on 'Wuk's mentor figure' so I guess it's useless to discuss further with you. Have a good day

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Originally Posted by fioravictorine

I duno, you keep strawmanning away from my question on 'Wuk's mentor figure' so I guess it's useless to discuss further with you. Have a good day

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"The WOL is not a mentor figure"

"Yes they are"

"No they aren't name a time"

"These 3 times"

"I don't like these 3 times"

"These 3 times are pretty similar to other liked parts of the story where the WoL is a mentor figure"

"Strawman"

Lol what? An argument you disagree with doesn't have to be fallacious, especially against something entirely opinion based. You could just say 'I disagree' rather than misusing the term strawman.

You can argue that the story of us being a mentor isn't good or well done. But, again, its literally part of the text. It happens. "How do I handle this situation" "Here is how" "Thanks I learned a lesson" is a pretty clear cut example of what is intended to be mentorship.

In previous expansions, even if someone else was clearly the central character of a story arc, they might ask us to do something, and we would go somewhere and we would do the thing for them and report back. But the key there is that we go do a thing, we are the driving force of something happening.

In DT, there are so many instances where we get to do the part of walking halfway across the map and click on an NPC, only for it to be not our character that then proceeds to talk to the person we clicked, but instead our click starting a scene where Wuk Lamat talks to someone. Erenville is having a character moment? Click Wuk Lamat so that Wuk Lamat can talk to Erenville. We spend several minutes searching a large quest area for an item we have to find? The payoff after we put in all the work is that we get to watch Wuk Lamat find the item. Not we find it and bring it back to her, no, she finds it.

The problem isn't so much that our character isn't the main character, the problem is that we are barely playing the game as our own character at all -- it is as if we are playing Wuk Lamat instead, and everything we do is just an activation device for Wuk Lamat to drive the story forward.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

Our imporance in Dawntrail was as a mentor figure for Wuk Lamat, a character going through a pretty classic coming of age story. We basically got to be what Thancred was to Ryne, and I don't think many would say Thancred was pointless in that story arc. Likewise, the fact all these people's problems would be kinda solved on their own isn't the point (and also isn't true, the resolution of blessed siblings and the redemption of Bakool Ja would *definitely* not have happened without Wuk Lamat being there with some lessons she learned from the WoL, and that is a major status quo change for the nation), the point is that it illustrates a philosophy the game has about leadership through Wuk Lamat learning it. Its... honestly a pretty basic narrative, "the test is a lesson," but it is a tried and true narrative and saying "the story would be the same if everyone failed the test because everyone actually didn't strictly need help" strikes me as an almost... Cinema Sins style 'plothole ding' complaint that ignores how narratives work.

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Yeah, we wouldn't say Thancred was pointless because he actually did stuff.
Before Thancred found her, Ryne was a prisoner resigned to her fate as a mere item. He freed her, treated her like an actual person as she deserves, taught her to fight, introduced her to friends and hobbies, and even nearly died fighting to protect her on multiple occasions.
Wuk Lamat goes through the trials without much pushback, and somehow gets strong enough to best Bakool Ja Ja on her own. We never get any indication that it was anything she learned from us. You could argue that Alphinaud, Alisaie, Krile, Koana, and Erenville all helped her develop and improve, but I see none of that coming from the Warrior of Light.
Nevermind that though, Remember what I said a moment ago? Thancred did things for her. He fought and almost died against Ran'jit all to protect her. We never actually do something like that for Lamat. Even when we finally track her down after being kidnapped (mostly Thancred and Koana who found her by the way.), Bakool pusses out before we get to do any fighting. She beats him at level 94. That's like the perfect time to have her lose, and us to save her so she can be humbled for later development. This story has already been written a thousand times before, and they still can't do it right.

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Originally Posted by Eyrilona

In DT, there are so many instances where we get to do the part of walking halfway across the map and click on an NPC, only for it to be not our character that then proceeds to talk to the person we clicked, but instead our click starting a scene where Wuk Lamat talks to someone.

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This is especially true in the second half, where Wuk Lamat stops asking us for advice nearly as much and the explicit task of 'let her grow' isn't in play anymore, so us having back to let her do everything becomes... noticeably weird, at least for someone like me who liked the mentor arc of the first half and felt good about the little moment where you tell her to kick Bakool's butt, because that is where the WoL really falls out of the story until Heritage Found.

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Originally Posted by GartredZW

Yeah, we wouldn't say Thancred was pointless because he actually did stuff.
Before Thancred found her, Ryne was a prisoner resigned to her fate as a mere item. He freed her, treated her like an actual person as she deserves, taught her to fight, introduced her to friends and hobbies, and even nearly died fighting to protect her on multiple occasions.
Wuk Lamat goes through the trials without much pushback, and somehow gets strong enough to best Bakool Ja Ja on her own. We never get any indication that it was anything she learned from us. You could argue that Alphinaud, Alisaie, Krile, Koana, and Erenville all helped her develop and improve, but I see none of that coming from the Warrior of Light.
Nevermind that though, Remember what I said a moment ago? Thancred did things for her. He fought and almost died against Ran'jit all to protect her. We never actually do something like that for Lamat. Even when we finally track her down after being kidnapped (mostly Thancred and Koana who found her by the way.), Bakool pusses out before we get to do any fighting. She beats him at level 94. That's like the perfect time to have her lose, and us to save her so she can be humbled for later development. This story has already been written a thousand times before, and they still can't do it right.

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I actually really liked that we never fought Bakool, specifically because of Ran'jit. I hated how Ran'jit was handled because we were forced to job against this rando nobody so he could be a threat to Ryne and we could eventually fight him... when he was clearly Thancred's enemy and not ours. In my opinion, we never should have fought Ran'jit once, or at least never 1 on 1, because he is just this jerk who comes out of nowhere with a weirdly unearned amount of power and threat who puts us in the down but not out state despite being just a guy. I had zero opinions on the dude besides hoping Thancred kicks his ass, so the fact he got to kinda be the main villain of the first half of Shadowbringers and constantly was implied to be way more powerful than me was just... irritating. He was a great part of Thancred's arc like you said, but its weird we were forced to resolve it.

Bakool meanwhile was a character who was clearly never our enemy, and the story never treated him like a threat to us. Instead, he was just really in Wuk Lamat's head (Her initial altercation with him wasn't so much 'she got bodied' and more 'she made one big attack that got directly blocked, didn't win instantly, and freaked out a bit), and after she got through a bunch of zones and started to develop a better understanding of what she actually wanted to do, she asks us to let her handle it and our characters say 'get em champ.' It also served as a really good culmination of Wuk Lamat's arc going from 'I am scared of Alpacas' to 'Peace is more than just the absence of war and I will defend the peace' in the first half. Most of our involvement there is psyching Wuk Lamat up, because her main problem in the first half is kinda being a worrywart and very indecisive (low key to the point it becomes a bit old when she freaks out about a mode of travel for the 3rd time), and those are flaws we do clear up in her through the trials.

Obviously that is an opinion, if the mentorship bit missed then it may be a lot more annoying, but that is one instance of the WoL being 'sidelined' that I think served the story masterfully, and I would love for more villains to have resolutions other than 'we specifically beat them for the NPC.' Compared to Wuk Lamat getting a magic platform to fight in the final boss while none of the other characters showed up, which definitely was... weird... Krile 100% should have showed up there too at least (And honestly if I had one big complaint for Dawntrail its that Krile was really underused and really didn't get to have a lot of character moments she should have).

I truly do not understand this whole idea people are coming up with that "this was Wuks story." No. Stop right there ✋️. Every single piece of marketing PR live letter fan fest ect ect said nothing about this being wuks journey.

This was always market since jump as OUR new adventure. So why In the name of bloody twelve am I the BG NPC?

There is a clear difference between 1.0-EW and DT. But at no point where we ever told during any part of the literal year from NA FF to DT launch that this was anything else besides OUR new chapter.

So if you feel lied to by yoshi P and the marketing team then good because you where and you are not a complete white knight simp for this sorry excuse of an msq.

Because had they told us even 1/100th of the truth of what this expansion was I bet no where near the same amount of people would have bought it.

This is the first time since 1.0's launch I genuinely feel lied to by the dev team and wish I could issue a full refund.

I cannot even bring myself to enjoy what content is there because I am primarily a story player and that is a complete mess.

Sorry I have been holding back since I beat the msq on day 3 of early access.

And honestly I wanted to explode with anger then. However I choose to sit on it and see how I felt.

It somehow has gotten even worse the more time I have sat with the story because now that the hype wore off and I can critically think about the story. There where soooooo many plot holes and horrible nonsense writing that its reminded me of season 8 of GOT levels of bad.

Sorry rant over

While previous expansions had other important characters. There has never been any other expansions where one NPC overshadowed everything, everywhere, anything. FF14 never had a MC to that degree, and now it does. So the complaints that DT has one very obvious MC can't be countered by pointing at characters with very different roles in previous stories. I am not a big a fan of either Alphinaud (though he got better in the last few expansions) or Graha. But I can just grit my teeth and get through their scenes, since there is enough of a MQ besides those two. For people who don't like Wuk there is almost no other MQ.

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Originally Posted by Endy_Sinkai

I truly do not understand this whole idea people are coming up with that "this was Wuks story." No. Stop right there ✋️. Every single piece of marketing PR live letter fan fest ect ect said nothing about this being wuks journey.

This was always market since jump as OUR new adventure. So why In the name of bloody twelve am I the BG NPC?

There is a clear difference between 1.0-EW and DT. But at no point where we ever told during any part of the literal year from NA FF to DT launch that this was anything else besides OUR new chapter.

So if you feel lied to by yoshi P and the marketing team then good because you where and you are not a complete white knight simp for this sorry excuse of an msq.

Because had they told us even 1/100th of the truth of what this expansion was I bet no where near the same amount of people would have bought it.

This is the first time since 1.0's launch I genuinely feel lied to by the dev team and wish I could issue a full refund.

I cannot even bring myself to enjoy what content is there because I am primarily a story player and that is a complete mess.

Sorry I have been holding back since I beat the msq on day 3 of early access.

And honestly I wanted to explode with anger then. However I choose to sit on it and see how I felt.

It somehow has gotten even worse the more time I have sat with the story because now that the hype wore off and I can critically think about the story. There where soooooo many plot holes and horrible nonsense writing that its reminded me of season 8 of GOT levels of bad.

Sorry rant over

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THIS SO MUCH. SE completely misled us with both trailers, IF they had actually shown how much Wukkie was involved I would have never bought the expansion, I hated that character since the moment she first appeared. What's even worse is that the writing is complete utter trash, the whole MSQ is mechanically boring like never before and it just goes on and on. I've literally skipped almost every cutscene (never skipped before) and I still spent about 4 days going through it just because it was that boring and trash that I needed lots of breaks to cope with it. How did we get to this point?

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

Are we Alphinauld's cheerleading slave in Heavensward? That story is basically us literally doing everything he or Aymeric says and using his solution for literally every problem. It doesn't even have the moments were Wuk Lamat explicitly asks us for advice on how to proceed, which very much DO exist (ex: Its a lot of the trading questline, for example).[/B]

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Contexts are very important my guy. In HW we were to established our position and name among the Ishgard whom sheltering us when we were framed outside of their land. WoL'd have every intention to help out whatever House Fortemp and Ayemeric chores.
As for Alphinaud, i don't remember much about we being his cheerlead? wasn't he just act like a puppy and following WoL instead of what you claim to be?

i didn't read any on other paragraphs btw, because i already has enough problems with your analogy on the first one

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

"The WOL is not a mentor figure"

"Yes they are"

"No they aren't name a time"

"These 3 times"

"I don't like these 3 times"

"These 3 times are pretty similar to other liked parts of the story where the WoL is a mentor figure"

"Strawman"

Lol what? An argument you disagree with doesn't have to be fallacious, especially against something entirely opinion based. You could just say 'I disagree' rather than misusing the term strawman.

You can argue that the story of us being a mentor isn't good or well done. But, again, its literally part of the text. It happens. "How do I handle this situation" "Here is how" "Thanks I learned a lesson" is a pretty clear cut example of what is intended to be mentorship.

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Oh, wasn't that what you were doing? You keep bringing up Alphi and HW despite it has nothing to do with 'WoL being a mentor figure to Wuk Lamat' which is literally what many Wuk lovers are parroting

If you phrase this 'mentorship' as being so poorly done to the point it appears near non-existent - then yeah, we both might have something to agree on

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Originally Posted by Ath192

To me the worst offense was Wuk Lamat barging in the final fight, it absolutely ruined the moment. In fact, while I was upset with the MSQ, right at that moment, when Wuk Lamat came in from nowhere to attack Sphene, was when I decided I would leave a bad online review of this expansion. I never felt so much contempt for a character in this game before.

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That moment, above all others, annoyed me too and the dialogue didn't help either - it was pretty hypocritical for the dialogue to identify us as "the single greatest threat" only to contradict that by having Wuk Lamat appear and present us with a unnecessary 'here I come to save the day!' moment.

To be honest, it felt like they tried to what they did with Zenos in Ultima Thule (bursting through a barrier to come to our aid in our moment of need) which made sense in that context; we were literally alone and, like it or not, needed Zenos. But the writers missed the point in the Queen Eternal fight; the scenario with Zenos worked exactly because we were alone Vs an overwhelming foe, which simply wasn't the case VS Queen Eternal. Nothing in the scenario suggested we were losing or were overwhelmed and we certainly weren't alone thanks to the awesomeness of Azem's crystal, which means Wuk Lamat's appearance was unnecessary and, sadly, did take the wind out of the sails of the fight.
Personally, I would have preferred something more akin to the Endsinger 'Light the Way' moment, which would've kept Wuk Lamat relevant (and made the others less useless) without having her steal the spotlight.

And it's a pity it played out that way, because it is otherwise a great trial with absolutely epic music.

Wuk Lamat had a fairly earned dynamic with Sphene though, mainly that she was actually her friend to some extent, and would be the one who would be taking care of her subjects after. I think the flaw with that scene is mostly that Krile really should have been a way bigger character in the second half, and been there to bust in alongside her with whatever dynamic she didn't get to have with Sphene, considering she kinda technically sorta was an Alexadrian who Sphene would have killed.

A huge problem with Wuk Lamat isn't that she was the 'main character' but that Dawntrail did way less to hide the fact she was the main character than previous expansions (And basically every 'secret main character' gets to share a moment with you in the final act: Alphinauld helping get the eye, Lyse trying to and failing to stop Zenos from escaping justice, The Exarch doing your summoning trick for you for the first time), in part because most of the ensemble cast were basically rotating cameos, and one of the major ones who stuck around basically existed to deliver a plot solving earring that wasn't even enough to actually solve the problem it exist to solve. Its a bit 'chicken and egg' to blame a weak supporting cast for a lead coming across as overbearing, but I doubt the story would suffer from the supporting cast being much more focused and consistent.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

That moment, above all others, annoyed me too and the dialogue didn't help either - it was pretty hypocritical for the dialogue to identify us as "the single greatest threat" only to contradict that by having Wuk Lamat appear and present us with a unnecessary 'here I come to save the day!' moment.

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The writer(s) were trying to reference the moment where Alisaie said to Wuk Lamat: "Don't let her/him bear the burden alone."
Unfortunately, for me this didn't land at all.
I was enjoying the fight so much and then the intermission cutscene happened and I needed to keep telling myself that this is ok. But I was trying really hard not to cringe. And I *like* Wuk Lamat. But she was pushed onto us so much that even for me, she became really annoying at times.

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Originally Posted by Mondschnee

The writer(s) were trying to reference the moment where Alisaie said to Wuk Lamat: "Don't let her/him bear the burden alone."
Unfortunately, for me this didn't land at all.
I was enjoying the fight so much and then the intermission cutscene happened and I needed to keep telling myself that this is ok. But I was trying really hard not to cringe. And I *like* Wuk Lamat. But she was pushed onto us so much that even for me, she became really annoying at times.

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Agreed. Again, it does feel as if they tried to mirror Endwalker in this respect, since Alisaie had a couple of "you shouldn't have to fight alone" moments there.

But as you say, it missed the mark here. Firstly because we weren't alone, and secondly because her appearance implied that we needed her help - and we didn't.

Honestly - the nonsense of her appearing during the fight could be cut out and I don't think it would make much difference - she didn't say anything that she hadn't already said and she didn't change Sphene's mind, which means we could've left her out and had her talk to Sphene afterward, which she did anyway!

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

I will note a lot of stories don't necessarily need the main protagonist. In Shadowbringers and Endwalker we are important and special, but I would say Heavensward, Stormblood, and ARR would not be especially different if not for us. If we sat out many of the events would go rougly the same save for how our presence inspires others to act, which is exactly what happens in Dawntrail.

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I just want to chime in here because I keep reading that.
Without us in ARR, HW and SB everything would fall down.

ARR
Without us no one would have stopped the Ultima weapon and Eorza would be defeated.
Without us there would have been lots and lots of bloodshed because you would have the company of heroes scenario were people are thrown at the primals and the tempered are killed after that.
Without us Minfillia would be dead because of Nabriales and Shb would not have worked.
Without us a Ralghar primal would have been summoned.
Without us Midgardsomr would still be sleeping and ignoring everything in the world.
Without us the crystal tower would not have been cleared or the cloud of darkness would have invaded.

HW
Without us Thordan would have won.
Without us Estinien would be dead and I don‘t know what would have happened to Alphinaud.
Without us Ishgard and the heretics would still be at war because Shiva would be successful.
The war would have never ended or Ishgard would have been destroyed.

SB
Without us Zenos would have kept killing people in Rhalgars Reach (he stopped because of us more or less)
Without us no one knows what would have happened with Lakshmi and Susanoo.

These are just out of my head.
All I say is no the events would have not been the same. We kickstart many things or prevent them.
It would be a cataclysmic butterfly effect.

These are just compact on the specific expansion ignoring all else.
If Garlemald conquered Eorzea then Ishgard would be in a two front war, Stormblood would never happened and so on.

There is a reason G’Raha did the time travel thing. It’s because of us. Because we ARE important.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

A huge problem with Wuk Lamat isn't that she was the 'main character' but that Dawntrail did way less to hide the fact she was the main character than previous expansions

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I really don't get what you are trying to argue there. There is a huge spectrum for how important 1 character is in a story, between having no main characters, and only having 1 important character. People who complain about Wuk being the main character obviously feel the story has shifted to much to having only 1 important character. Trying to make that discussion about who else could be called a main character, or if "main character" is a problem itself, completely misses the point.

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Originally Posted by dezzmont

"The WOL is not a mentor figure"

"Yes they are"

"No they aren't name a time"

"These 3 times"

"I don't like these 3 times"

"These 3 times are pretty similar to other liked parts of the story where the WoL is a mentor figure"

"Strawman"

Lol what? An argument you disagree with doesn't have to be fallacious, especially against something entirely opinion based. You could just say 'I disagree' rather than misusing the term strawman.

You can argue that the story of us being a mentor isn't good or well done. But, again, its literally part of the text. It happens. "How do I handle this situation" "Here is how" "Thanks I learned a lesson" is a pretty clear cut example of what is intended to be mentorship.

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We are "said" that we are a "mentor", but we aren't shown to be one in a satisfaying manner and that's the problem.

The WoL don't give advice to Wuk Lamat based on their experiences (what a good mentor should do) but common one that could be displayed on a cheap mug at best. They doesn't even show why they could be a mentor since our reputation doesn't matter in Tural. In all fictions where there is one, a mentor has moments to shine alone, what we could call "badass moments", we barely have one of them during Wuk Lamat "trials", when we are marching menacingly toward Bakool Ja Ja ignoring his goons.

They don't reprimand her, never, even when she objectively did wrong. Just think how interesting it would have been if it's not to her father, but to her that they said "You aren't ready yet", this could have been the trigger to her evolution. But no, the fact is that she doesn't need a mentor figure since she finds all the answers by herself at the end and everyone, except Zoraal Ja, end up falling in love with her within seconds, even people her father failed to pacify in 80 years.

If the WoL was truly written has a mentor, a good one and Wuk Lamat was shown in need of one, a lot of the bitterness of Wuk Lamat from some players would disappear since the WoL would have been one of the driving forces behind her evolution. We would have mattered in her story.
And if the WoL had some other moments to shine, her intervention during the last trial would have felt more deserved.

A lot of what's wrong with this expansion is that they failed to depict the WoL as a mentor, and by failing that, the WoL doesn't have agency and importance anymore, resulting in this "I'm just the cameraman of Wuk Lamat story" feeling. It's also why a lot of people don't like Vaan and Penelo in FFXII.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

That moment, above all others, annoyed me too and the dialogue didn't help either - it was pretty hypocritical for the dialogue to identify us as "the single greatest threat" only to contradict that by having Wuk Lamat appear and present us with a unnecessary 'here I come to save the day!' moment.

To be honest, it felt like they tried to what they did with Zenos in Ultima Thule (bursting through a barrier to come to our aid in our moment of need) which made sense in that context; we were literally alone and, like it or not, needed Zenos. But the writers missed the point in the Queen Eternal fight; the scenario with Zenos worked exactly because we were alone Vs an overwhelming foe, which simply wasn't the case VS Queen Eternal. Nothing in the scenario suggested we were losing or were overwhelmed and we certainly weren't alone thanks to the awesomeness of Azem's crystal, which means Wuk Lamat's appearance was unnecessary and, sadly, did take the wind out of the sails of the fight.
Personally, I would have preferred something more akin to the Endsinger 'Light the Way' moment, which would've kept Wuk Lamat relevant (and made the others less useless) without having her steal the spotlight.

And it's a pity it played out that way, because it is otherwise a great trial with absolutely epic music.

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I wonder, have you done the ff16 collab event? That fight we had with Clive was the 1st time I got an odd feeling of being a 3rd wheel in a fight. As we are there to support him and make him do the rest of it, so anticlimactic I was kinda baffled. I guess that is where thye tried this new approach of us being just a spectator.

We tell Vath Deftarms "stfu stop whining and do your job" while mentoring them as an adventurer...

Wuk Lamat we just tell her "it's ok booboo you're great and awesome!"