FFXIV Healer Strike and the 'How would you fix it?' line

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

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Makes sense! As long as the transformation is fairy themed I'll be happy.

Make healing more involved. I think the concept of Picto mechanics opened up a good way forward for the way spellcasting works in this game.

I think a DPS rotation is a really lame solution, procs maybe but no rotation. Still I'd happily take it over what we have now, HAPPILY, but I'd rather they actually design a healing model and new spell types other than just massive oGCD blasts.

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Originally Posted by Mapleine

I think a DPS rotation is a really lame solution, procs maybe but no rotation.

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There's been a discussion recently about the term 'rotation' and whether it's appropriate to describe healer's DPS gameplay. As far as I can see, the playerbase has accepted the term 'rotation' to mean 'the gameplay loop the job participates in, in order to deal damage'. If you zoom out far enough, this applies to healers too. SCH's 'rotation' currently, for example, is Broil x 11, Biolysis, Broil x 11, Biolysis, Broil x 11, Biolysis, Broil x 11, Biolysis. And that is a 2minute 'loop', which we 'rotate' through. Other jobs have more... varied, buttons to press within their 2min loop, but in the end, every job has one, even the healers. Even on a proc-based job like BRD, we refer to its gameplay loop as a 'rotation'.

I wouldn't ask the question of 'should healers have a rotation', because they do, even if that rotation was only made of one button (eg they remove our one DOT too). Rather, the question I'd ask is 'why do healers feel like the term 'rotation' does not apply'? And the answer to that, I think, is simply that there's not enough pieces to put together to create something we'd consider a 'rotation'.

As I mentioned in the OP, I would like to see the healing paradigm addressed. But I am all too aware that trying to use only changes to 'how we heal' (be that amount of HP, frequency of damage, etc) for a solution to the problem will not work. It needs to be a combination of the two halves of our kit, addressing both the damage side AND the healing side. And that's why I think the best way to start tackling this is to make adjustments to the damage side first. By adjusting the damage kits first, it is a much smaller job, with a much more 'instantly obvious' effect to the playerbase at large (that is, new actions/VFX/systems etc), and would serve to show, with tangible evidence, that 'hey we're working on adjustments', rather than a hazy 'please wait patiently' Lodestone post. It also means that for those who do not like the current healer gameplay, and wish to see adjustments, they might feel they can 'return to the role' sooner.

The healer I have the most experience with is WHM, so I'm more comfortable trying to put out ideas to fix it than others...

One change for all would be to make their DoT into an AoE for the sake of dungeons... But, aside from that for WHM

Keep Stone I to Stone IV as the primary attack spell, and just increase their potency through traits throughout the levels.
Make Glare I to Glare IV into a separate spell, one that requires stacks of Sacred Sight to cast as the way Glare IV currently does.
Entirely replace Freecure with a new trait with one that would grant a stack of Sacred Sight at about 30% proc chance on ever Spell cast.
Replace Planary Indulgence with Seraph Strike, make Seraph Strike cost 1 Lily to use and nourish the Blood Lily.
Because of a better alternative for nourishing the Blood Lily, Afflatus Misery's potency can be dropped as it no longer would have to be DPS neutral to Glare(or Stone with these changes).
Remove MP recovery from Assize, and add it to Afflatus Solace and Afflatus Rapture.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

It's not the JP forums, and something doesn't have to be a "hivemind" with unanimous agreement to still be the norm for a culture. Way to make false assumptions and then use it to attack me, though. Just another revealing post about what happens when people dare oppose the "hivemind" or echo chamber around here...



See the post I quoted above and the rest of your reply for some great examples of that...



Please read what I wrote again. GNB and PLD are not DPS classes and "old SMN" is irrelevant when talking about now. I said I believed all DPS classes should be given an AoE DoT before Healers get it. (I would also agree that all Tanks should get them before healers, too, since their primary purpose involves maintaining aggro on all enemies in a battle simultaneously.)

Where's that poster in the other thread who claimed the echo chamber around here doesn't gang up on or attack those who disagree with it? *chuckles* Man...

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You are so painfully ignorant that I don't even want to begin to argue with you because you've already decided what you "believe". SE designs healers with DPSing as their main function in mind. Don't believe me? Look at literally any log from a competent healer. It's 95 percent Dosis/Glare spam with dots. They are the vast majority of casts of abilities by far. Like by far by far. It's not even anywhere near, and their healing skills are vastly inferior in number to those casts. The devs literally take healer dps into consideration when designing fights.

The fact that you are willing to deprive your fellow players with more flushed out DPS kits for healers when they don't have to heal (which is the majority of the time because healer tools are all scripted and fixed into a fight on a spreadsheet) just because "you don't want them to have it" is absurd. It's so cruel to do that to your fellow players. A true conservative at heart: I don't want things to change for the better, so I'm going to advocate for them remaining the same because I'm too scared to see what change might bring. Yuck.

They don't need to fix it. It's fine. People just need to stop crying and just play the game. If they don't like healer then play a different role or quit. Healers are fine.

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Originally Posted by Asako

They don't need to fix it. It's fine. People just need to stop crying and just play the game. If they don't like healer then play a different role or quit. Healers are fine.

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Maybe if Healers are fine as they are, they should fix all the other classes to match them...

Do Tanks really need all those attacks? No. Just trim them down to only having Total Eclipse, Overpower, Unleash or Demon Slice, depending on the class. Just give it a big enough "Increase Enmity" effect to keep aggro with it. And then just 10 copies of Rampart.

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Originally Posted by Asako

They don't need to fix it. It's fine. People just need to stop crying and just play the game. If they don't like healer then play a different role or quit. Healers are fine.

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Strange that this exact reasoning didn't apply when the Healers were more complex in HW, and people were complaining that it was too hard to get into, isn't it? Should we, as HW players who learned to play around the jank of the old Fairy AI or Cleric Stance, have said 'if you don't like healer (as it was at the time) play a different role or quit'? No, because that would be a ridiculous take. But that doesn't mean that people who enjoy a semblance of complexity in their Healer designs should get rolled in favour of the people who not only demand that the gameplay be reduced to 'spam a single button' but also don't even bother to spam that single button.

You might have missed the part where I advocated for WHM to get 3 new healing/mitigation actions (and a rework to an action that adds mitigation to it in addition to what it currently does). If your response to my asking for additional healing/mitigation on healers is 'healers are fine as they are', that'd mean you're flatly rejecting both the idea of healers getting more damage, AND healers getting more healing, or mitigation actions. In which case, SE might as well not bother adding any new actions at all to healers, right? I don't see that going over well with the playerbase at large, even more so than 'WHM now has one extra button to press for damage sometimes'

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Maybe if Healers are fine as they are, they should fix all the other classes to match them...

Do Tanks really need all those attacks? No. Just trim them down to only having Total Eclipse, Overpower, Unleash or Demon Slice, depending on the class. Just give it a big enough "Increase Enmity" effect to keep aggro with it. And then just 10 copies of Rampart.

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Don't bother. We've tried that line for 5 years and not only does it not work, some people (who shall not be named but their name did begin with R) have said 'actually that does sound like it would suit my playstyle better so yes please'. Like, unironically saying that the obviously hyperbolic example would be a good idea, instead of the trashfire 'game killer' idea that it is

Looking at this again, the only change I'd make is how Strategy: Offense is used. As it stands now, it feels like you would simply swap to offense, unload your dots then drop offense. I would add a slight potency increase to Broil, Ruin II and AoW as well just as an added little minigame of how long you can stay in offense before you have to switch.

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Originally Posted by Iedarus

Looking at this again, the only change I'd make is how Strategy: Offense is used. As it stands now, it feels like you would simply swap to offense, unload your dots then drop offense. I would add a slight potency increase to Broil, Ruin II and AoW as well just as an added little minigame of how long you can stay in offense before you have to switch.

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I could write a whole load of text about my decisionmaking re: Strategies, but the tl;dr is 'it is purposely kept to only the DOTs, because if it affected Broil/AOW players who don't want to interact with the system (and would prefer to simply stay in Defense for a more 'stress-free' gameplay experience) would feel like they're 'forced' to interact with the system and they don't want that kind of complexity forced upon them'. You can see Striker earlier in this thread make reference to how he does not want to play with any stance-dance gameplay because he remembers how jank Cleric Stance was. I can't exactly say anything to convince him that these stances would be 'less jank', but the point is, even with Offense affecting only the DOTs, he felt that he would be 'forced' to interact with the Strategies. Adding Broil/AOW to the list would only compound that, and turn more players off from such a system. And that's... kinda the exact opposite of the goal I had in mind (that is, design healer kits that are welcoming to newer players, but also have depth for veterans to explore).

Consider Strategy: Offense less of a 'you want to stay in this as much as possible' and more something akin to... a Recitation for your DOTs, albeit much weaker and with no CD. Where you're thinking of 'camp in Offense, swap to Defense/Emergency to heal, then back to Offense', I intend for the exact opposite. You'd stay in Emergency/Defense for quite a lot of the fight, swapping to Offense only to refresh the DOT before swapping back. You ARE a Healer after all, so I'd argue that it makes a lot more sense to mostly be staying in a Healing-related Strategy for the majority of the fight (to react to sudden healing requirements faster), no? Plus, there's plenty of Strategy-Swapping optimization possible even without having Offense bound to your bars, as IIRC I didn't actually say that the barrier from Selene's Embrace was exclusive with Galvanize, did I? So, theoretically, you could be swapping between Defense and Emergency, just to balance 'healing via Embrace' with 'have fairy set up fairy-barriers on each of the 8 raid members in time for the next raidwide'. Just that alone would add optimization to the job I think. Do you let the fairy's barriers handle the damage, or do you need to top it up with a Galvanise of your own? And if so, where does it come from, a GCD like Succor, or Deploying a Defense-Excogitation? Or what about Defense-Indom? Do you need the Galvanise at all, or would a Deployed Protraction be enough? So many choices, so many ways to handle the situation

Sorry if this doesn't read well, very tired

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

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That makes a lot of sense. I'd imagine with the 15 second duration of Shadowflare you'd be flipping back to it pretty frequently, anyway. I do like the examples you added and I hope that SE at least references this for 8.0.

Something that could be considered is increasing the base potency of Shadowflare's cast from 120 to 170, and reducing the DOT from 40 to 30 per tick (so it's the same total damage). With this, it'd be 10p less than AOW to spam, but with Strategy: Offense, it'd be 10p more than AOW. And that'd allow for AOW to simply be replaced (or upgrade into via trait) with Shadowflare. The main reason I didn't do so in the original design post was because we'd simply swap from spamming one button (AOW) in AOE situations, to spamming another (Shadowflare) and I wanted to fix that a little. But also, the niche 2 target optimization opportunities AOW provides by being centered-on-self (eg P6 DSR) would be lost. Unless Shadowflare could target enemies OR allies, and simply centers the bubble on whoever is targeted, I suppose that could work, that way you'd retain the current AOW functionality by targeting yourself with it.

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Originally Posted by Iedarus

That makes a lot of sense. I'd imagine with the 15 second duration of Shadowflare you'd be flipping back to it pretty frequently, anyway. I do like the examples you added and I hope that SE at least references this for 8.0.

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In total, per 2min cycle you'd have 4 Bio refreshes, 6 Miasma refreshes, and 8 Shadowflare refreshes, for a total of 18 GCDs out of 48 where you'd 'want' to be in Strategy: Offense. Some of these naturally line up with one another (eg every 2min window all three would want to be refreshed in sequence), so there'd be some situations where you'd want to 'stay' in Offense for more than a single GCD.

I would love if SE referenced any of this stuff for 8.0, they have full permission (as mentioned on each post). Even if they only take the DOT part (eg readding Miasma/Shadowflare, and having ED upgrade to Bane) that'd be a win in my book. It's funny, because the SCH is actually my 3rd 'favourite' of the four, if I could choose which one design SE implements (exactly as I envision), I'd have a hard time choosing between the WHM and SGE. I originally made the idea for WHM and did the other healers after seeing how I did with WHM, but the more I've worked on it, the more I've come to see what a missed opportunity Kardia is for SGE, and how much incredible potential it has to be a completely novel approach to how we heal in the game

Just adding a post here to 'save' an idea I had randomly, lest it be consigned to the sands of time in the #ffxivhealerstrike thread.

Basically, some people have raised concerns with having shorter (therefore used more often) DOTs, or having multiple. Having to use DOTs more often, via either of these changes, raises the skill floor.

So to keep the DOTs 'accessible' regardless of frequency/number available, we could have a system change (or trait, however SE decides to implement it) wherein if you have an enemy targetted, but the enemy does not have a certain DOT active, that DOT lights up on your bar to show 'hey, maybe using this is a good idea'. As an example, if you took my SCH idea (has Biolysis, Miasma, Shadowflare to maintain), if you target an enemy that has only Miasmalysis active (and you don't have an active Shadowflare), Biolysis and Shadowflare would light up on your bars.

It'd be an option that can be disabled, of course.

I think a change like this would be massively beneficial for casual players, while hardcore players would be able to choose to ignore it in certain moments (eg 'boss will jump away in 6s, it's more efficient for damage to ignore the DOT and keep casting Glare/Broil'), similar to how they ignore the flashing lights on things like Fan Dance for DNC (to pool everything into the 2min window for more damage)

Greetings and salutations, General Discussion. It's been a while since I updated this thread, but a recent video about the topic has prompted me to come back and do some spring cleaning. The main updates are to SCH, wherein the base healing action potencies (which would be used while in Strategy: Offensive) have been updated to exactly match Dawntrail SCH potencies. Effectively, staying in Offensive and never changing stances, is almost 1:1 identical gameplay to DT SCH, from the perspective of healing potency, with the main exception being 'Embrace is weaker compared to other stances'. As such, anyone who doesn't want to participate in the added complexity that such 'stance dance' gameplay would entail, would have the option to ignore it entirely. I know this goes against what I've said in previous posts, but I figure that it's better for 'players who want to play current SCH and not interact with this new stuff' to have an option preserved, rather than rip their preferred gameplay away from them. Consider it 'a change made based on player feedback' ; )

The other updates/changes/additions are to add the new DT actions, and where necessary, adapt their function to fit the new systems the jobs have received. SCH and SGE in particular needed a bit of adjustment for their level 100 actions. For SCH, Seraphism and the new Tabula Rasa action grant access to Manifestation and Accession temporarily (as with DT), with those actions' effects being the combined bonus effects of Strategy: Defensive and Strategy: Emergency. In essence, it's a 'you have all Strategies active at once' button. Tabula Rasa and Seraphism both share a cooldown with one another, as they are meant to be a 'choose the aesthetic you prefer' option. A lot of people find Seraphism's VFX to be antithetical to the previously established 'Marine Spirit' aesthetic of SCH, while others enjoy the angelic/seraphic theme. Thus, by having two actions with identical effects/CDs but a shared CD, the player can simply choose the one they like the look of better.

SGE's Philosophia has been changed here too, because currently it functions as a pseudo-Pankardia (with a 20% magic boost attached), and the addition of an actual Pankardia to this design (which is much more accessible, cooldown-wise) renders Philosophia quite redundant. As such, it has been retooled to better fit the Kardia Augmentation gameplay, by granting full stacks of all Augments at once, with no MP cost (normally doing so requires 4000MP). By spending all of these Augment stacks, the player will also generate 80 Toxicosis over the next 4 GCDs, allowing them to almost instantly use Toxikon for even more burst healing. The 20% magic boost continues to be present, but additionally affects the Kardia healing that the player will spend their free stacks on, making their Kardia healing throughput even stronger for the duration of Philosophia's effect. The increased base potency of Eukrasian Prognosis (due to it using regular Prognosis' base healing in this design), going from 100p to 300p, should make up for the lack of Eudaimonia's healing (the 150p heal per spell cast under Philosophia). Due to only having 4 GCDs affected (instead of the 8 (or 9 with SpellSpeed) GCDs that DT's version allows), the CD has been reduced to 120s.

As always, feedback/criticism/discussions are welcome

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

So many people think they can be an arm-chair game designer.

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My friend you thought new Astro is peak healer and Astro design in general. I say roe at least cares about healers having a identity and not “regen is regen hur dur” Healers in general are just soooo bland that any kind of spice up would be a gift.

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Originally Posted by Mortex

My friend you thought new Astro is peak healer and Astro design in general. I say roe at least cares about healers having a identity and not “regen is regen hur dur” Healers in general are just soooo bland that any kind of spice up would be a gift.

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It’s incredible how many people think “overpowered” is an identity

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s incredible how many people think “overpowered” is an identity

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And something they could have done with extra charges for almost all ogcds Astro had but nooooooo let’s make the cards a joke except the dmg cards. Lady is just a bad star without skill expression.

I do not believe my job of WHM needs any changes itself, we just need to be needed.

We have an amazing healing kit, I just want to be able to heal.

Until they remove other jobs outright broken self healing, we won’t get to heal.

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

I do not believe my job of WHM needs any changes itself, we just need to be needed.

We have an amazing healing kit, I just want to be able to heal.

Until they remove other jobs outright broken self healing, we won’t get to heal.

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WHM is still the weakest healer at healing as much as anything. Even if you randomly dumped massive healing checks the other healers have tools for it and they bring other advantages

WHM doesn’t have a single real niche

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

WHM is still the weakest healer at healing as much as anything. Even if you randomly dumped massive healing checks the other healers have tools for it and they bring other advantages

WHM doesn’t have a single real niche

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I've been playing WHM main since 2.5 and I don't even mind WHM being in the back of the pack in terms of raw healing if something else makes up for it though in a way, the ease of the job does. All the other healing jobs are technically more complicated. The problem is that healing is a braindead role. If healing were engaging and WHM had the lowest skill cap combined with the overall lowest heals, that's a tradeoff I'd be willing to make, especially because I also play SGE and SCH.

I think nudging healers into kind of a more of a generalist support role could be helpful. Like cut back on the quantity of healing actions a little bit, and giving them more more non healing/defensive utility to play with. generally I think healer damage rotations need to be kept simple, but not like how it is now. Making a spam rotation that is fun, and flexible will be the hardest thing to get right.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

I think nudging healers into kind of a more of a generalist support role could be helpful. Like cut back on the quantity of healing actions a little bit, and giving them more more non healing/defensive utility to play with. generally I think healer damage rotations need to be kept simple, but not like how it is now. Making a spam rotation that is fun, and flexible will be the hardest thing to get right.

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That was the goal here, take the WHM for example. 'DOT duration shortened to 12s, new action with 15s CD' isn't an incredibly high amount of rotational complexity IMO, but because of the potency tuning I've listed, it'd be incredibly easy to delay the casting of Banish by a GCD or two (losing an average of about 6.6 potency per GCD it's not used), in order to line it up with a movement section where you can't get a Glare cast in normally (which then allows you to get 370p in a GCD where you'd normally get 0p, and therefore overpowers any 'lost' potency caused by delaying the Banish cast). Also, because the initial potency of Dia is raised here compared to DT (150p here, 65 in DT), even spamming that for mobility would be higher potency and less 'punishing' to your damage in this design, compared to the current game, adding more flexibility to the job. And that's just WHM

I think that when it comes to 'rotational complexity', we need to look at two things: one, what we had in Stormblood. HW was too complicated and janky (hence it had to change), Shadowbringers is regarded as 'a step too far', SB sits in this middle ground where we still had some meat on the bone, but it was undeniably more 'accessible' than HW due to Cleric Stance being effectively removed (and our damage scaling from Mind). And 'thing' two: Tank rotational complexity. If a Tank (who's role is not 'DPS') can have X amount of rotational complexity, then I believe that whatever 'X' is, should be the upper limit for Healer rotational complexity.

Let's take WAR, because it's the 'most simple' according to many players. WAR has two 123 combos, one of which applies a buff (these are synonymous with Glare and Dia), and it has a 30s OGCD Upheaval (could argue Assize fills this slot for WHM). WHM also has POM allowing 3 uses of Glare 4, akin to IR allowing 3 uses of Fell Cleave. But we don't have anything that really compares to Onslaught, a gauge built by attacking, the followup after the 3 Fell Cleaves (Primal Wrath), Infuriate and its CD reduction effect/Inner Chaos upgrade effect, Primal Rend or the followup Primal Ruination. It could be argued that there's the Lily/Misery interaction, wherein we can put a Misery in raidbuffs for a small DPS gain, but even factoring that in, I think there's plenty of room for WHM to expand its complexity without A: making it more complex than even 'the simplest of the Tanks', and B: making it 'complex' just as a standalone design. As I mentioned before (and in the designs on page 1), the sum total of my changes to the DPS rotation on WHM is 'Dia is 12s Duration, new action Banish added with a 15s CD'. Just those two changes alone, takes us from like 33 Glares per 2min loop (a total of 50 GCDs due to POM's speedboost), to more like 20 out of 50, and that's the main goal I think, reducing how often we press 'the filler button' by adding more stuff to press that isn't 'the filler button', be that standalone GCD attacks like this Banish, or shortening DOT timers so we refresh them more often, etc.

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Originally Posted by lolnotacat

I've been playing WHM main since 2.5 and I don't even mind WHM being in the back of the pack in terms of raw healing if something else makes up for it though in a way, the ease of the job does. All the other healing jobs are technically more complicated. The problem is that healing is a braindead role. If healing were engaging and WHM had the lowest skill cap combined with the overall lowest heals, that's a tradeoff I'd be willing to make, especially because I also play SGE and SCH.

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In this design, there's a couple of 'niches' that WHM would be able to fill (though it's up to each player individually whether they feel that said 'niche' is an interesting one to occupy). One is, of course, the ease of execution. With the reworked potencies, the extra instantcasts in the rotation (more using Dia, and Banish is an instantcast) it's way more mobile compared to the current WHM, allowing the player to more easily keep their damage going. The new gauge would also give it more ways to heal 'damage neutrally' before having to dip into Medica2 or Cure3, again helping with keeping damage output high. But there's some non-damage niches that it could slide into too. Firstly, being 'the comfy prog pick' thanks to the above ease of execution, but also Thin Air's reworked effect. By having the effect be 'next spell is instant AND costs 0 MP' (instead of just 'next spell costs 0 MP' as the current effect reads), this would allow WHM to throw out 2 Raises, instantly and for free, and then Swiftcast a third, allowing it a huge amount of Resurrection potential in progression. I don't mind that RDM has the ability to chain-res people, but I do think it is a little odd that the Caster is better at mass-resurrecting the team, than anyone in the Healer role.

The other niche, and this one is quite unintuitive at first read, is that I've listed Afflatus Bastion and Sanctuary as applying a Barrier 'equal to a heal of X potency', the same wording as is used on something like Divine Benison. As far as I understand it, because of a quirk of how the game calculates such an effect, any situation wherein you heal a target for less (eg your target has Infirmity from Twintania's Death Sentence, Zephirin's infamous spear from Thordan EX, etc), a barrier like Adloquium that says 'applies a barrier equal to X% of the amount healed' is reduced (because the base heal is reduced), but a barrier like Benison or these Afflatus barriers (which has no base heal) would be unaffected. In a situation where the party is taking 50% reduced healing because of a raid mechanic, the 250p barrier applied by Afflatus Sanctuary would actually be stronger than the 360p barrier applied by Eukrasian Prognosis II or Concitation (as they'd be reduced to an effective 180p). Additionally, the fact that Lily spending actions on WHM are damage neutral (via Misery's refund) would mean that, in certain situations after progression, the Barrier Healer could forgo using a wasteful GCD (Concitation/Deploy-Adlo/Eukrasian Prognosis II), and allow the WHM to throw up a damage neutral Afflatus barrier, allowing for more options during optimization. In progression, however, that 250p might not be enough, and even if you do survive, the Lily spent on that barrier might have been more effectively used on a Pure healing option like Afflatus Rapture after the damage has been dealt (as it heals for 400p compared to the 250p barrier). Such a 'Lily spender barrier action' would also mean that, in the times where we currently are forced to 'overheal' to prepare a Misery to use in raidbuffs (which feels wasteful), we'd be able to throw up a 30s barrier instead, and get 'some' value out of that Lily on the next raidwide (assuming there's raidwide damage within the next 30s).

I was thinking about changing Liturgy of the Bell's effect, such that we'd have 3 stacks instead of 5, removing the 'early detonation'/'it timed out' penalty (so it would always be 1200p total potency, instead of the 1000-2000p range it currently has), but also reducing its CD to 90s. That way, Macrocosmos has its 'niche' of 'it literally deleted a mechanic in P3S', and the 'niche' of Liturgy is 'it's up twice as often'. Ultimately, I decided against it for now, because the times where we do spend all 5 stacks, it's a great action

Finally stop demanding changes to the jobs. Weren't summoner, samurai, monk and even viper enough to see that SE is changing the jobs so that they are no longer fun at all? Summoner click button 1 - 2 - 3 Oh wait, just put something in between, what will you take? Titan? Garuda? Ifrit? Decisions upon decisions.... I'm overwhelmed. *yawns*

For starters to fix Healers, their attacks need an increase in potency. Their base damage output should be on the same level as tanks... Or alternatively they could nerf tanks to Healer levels of DPS... At this point of neglect towards the role, I would welcome the chaos caused by that.

Also, give them more of a supporting role in the group. Healing is usually only specifically needed when someone fails to dodge a mechanic, if it doesn't just straight up instakill them... Otherwise regen and Kardia/Eos is enough to more or less keep tanks alive, and most raidwides only need like 1 casted AoE heal to recover...
But for other kinds of support, there's only really Buffs for the raid and debuffs to enemies...

Healer issue is way deeper than what most people think.

it is in the root of job design philosophy.

What to manage as a tank? is the first question that will give us an idea of what other jobs can do.

giving healers extra DPS OGCD will not fix healer issue. it is how they can be valid with the current tank + dps kit.

why do DPS jobs have too many utility skills? all of the jobs have utility except 3 or 4 which is why healers have less value.

homonization is a big problem and devs can't understand it yet, 3 expansions in a row 6 years of the same kit shows how dellusional some people in the dev team, "go play ultimate" is not a professional answer, most the players are casuals and midcore is the second, people who play ultimate is the hardcore players, I would argue that they are less than 5% of the playerbase.

there is light in the tunnel

While many ideas sound cool on paper, I would dread them in-game. Having to juggle so many systems and resources will make the ceiling of a class extremely daunting and high. Pair that savage and ultimates and you are in for the vast majority that would not even dare to touch it. Savage and Ultimates are already daunting to jump into as a sprout, having this complex system will further push people away from those.

I do honestly think, there is nothing wrong with having a mix of complexity. It's not wrong to have a class that is easy to understand and play.

Also, what are these super complex classes for? which type of content?

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

While many ideas sound cool on paper, I would dread them in-game. Having to juggle so many systems and resources will make the ceiling of a class extremely daunting and high. Pair that savage and ultimates and you are in for the vast majority that would not even dare to touch it. Savage and Ultimates are already daunting to jump into as a sprout, having this complex system will further push people away from those.

I do honestly think, there is nothing wrong with having a mix of complexity. It's not wrong to have a class that is easy to understand and play.

Also, what are these super complex classes for? which type of content?

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That's the problem, is not a class, is an entire role that has been coddled by the devs and designed as "baby's first job".

These designs aren't really that complex and any player aspiring to handle an ultimate should be willing/capable of learning and mastering them, they really aren't more complex than tank and dps systems and they clear fine. Let alone how many of those systems mentioned are refinements of the previous existing systems of the game and we healed just fine with them.

It's fine having a low entry bar for a role, you want people to try it, but its also healthy having a high enough ceiling to make people stay, which is what the role is failing at on a spectacular way right now, and being a bit direct here you (as a general you, not particular) are not entitled to play the role perfectly optimal right from the beggining, if you want that it should be expected for you to put time and effort to learn and master the systems, like it happened on every good designed job we had.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

That's the problem, is not a class, is an entire role that has been coddled by the devs and designed as "baby's first job".

These designs aren't really that complex and any player aspiring to handle an ultimate should be willing/capable of learning and mastering them, they really aren't more complex than tank and dps systems and they clear fine. Let alone how many of those systems mentioned are refinements of the previous existing systems of the game and we healed just fine with them.

It's fine having a low entry bar for a role, you want people to try it, but its also healthy having a high enough ceiling to make people stay, which is what the role is failing at on a spectacular way right now, and being a bit direct here you (as a general you, not particular) are not entitled to play the role perfectly optimal right from the beggining, if you want that it should be expected for you to put time and effort to learn and master the systems, like it happened on every good designed job we had.

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Perhaps, but I do disagree with healers being an entry-level job.

In any case, I don't think making 10 bars filled with spells to juggle and systems will get people to stay. Complexity doesn't have to be resumed to how many spells you have and how many different buttons you push. And sure, let's say they make every single class an incredibly high ceiling to master. For a while it will keep ppl "happy" and then, people will master it, and they will say it's not complex enough anymore.

While I would love for SE to re-build/ redesign classes every couple to a few years I highly doubt they will do that considering how adverse they are to change and how much people end up crying over even small changes.

Also, the class complexity is just a symptom of a much bigger issue. You cannot just slap a band-aid (class redesign) and say everything will be fine.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

While many ideas sound cool on paper, I would dread them in-game. Having to juggle so many systems and resources will make the ceiling of a class extremely daunting and high. Pair that savage and ultimates and you are in for the vast majority that would not even dare to touch it. Savage and Ultimates are already daunting to jump into as a sprout, having this complex system will further push people away from those.

I do honestly think, there is nothing wrong with having a mix of complexity. It's not wrong to have a class that is easy to understand and play.

Also, what are these super complex classes for? which type of content?

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I understand that, and that's why I've tried to keep the ideas I've made here rather more 'tame' than what could be created (I've seen other people suggest massive overhauls that completely change the core design of each healer). But I do wonder if the perception that these additional systems (which I've tried to balance in such a way that they feel 'optional, for the sake of optimization only') would be too complex for something like an Ultimate, is because we're not used to having them, and suddenly being thrust into the deep end with their addition would feel overwhelming to some players? In a sense, the 'new player' would ironically have a much easier time with the additions, because they'd be learning each system one step at a time as they level, whereas we've got 100 levels of changes thrown at us as veteran players who have already reached the max level

These 'super complex classes' (again, debatable/subjective, I don't think any of these are any more complicated to execute than some of the Tanks) are intended to be for every level of skill, in every piece of content. You can choose to spam Cure2 and get through an EX roulette currently. You can press Succor 35 times in week 1 progression and still clear. These ideas wouldn't change that, or force the player to press their DPS actions more, merely add variety to which DPS actions are being pressed at what times. The example potencies are so close to the filler spell potency (eg Banish being only 40p stronger than Glare) specifically so that the player wouldn't be punished for 'doing the rotation wrong'. It's all intended to be 'tools to optimize around, but ultimately not necessary to clear content', and with it being 'optional', it simply means more potential fun to be had in lower-skill level content like EX roulette

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

That's the problem, is not a class, is an entire role that has been coddled by the devs and designed as "baby's first job".

These designs aren't really that complex and any player aspiring to handle an ultimate should be willing/capable of learning and mastering them, they really aren't more complex than tank and dps systems and they clear fine. Let alone how many of those systems mentioned are refinements of the previous existing systems of the game and we healed just fine with them.

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Further to the whole 'it might be a perception issue, that too much change is happening at once (from the POV of max level players) with these designs', I think what would help solve that would be if SE had a better update implementation schedule. Let's take the WHM, as an example. Rather than doing all of the changes at once, SE could break it up into 'Phases'. Phase 1 could be implemented in, say, 7.3, which would contain the changes to the Aero/Dia duration, and the addition of Banish as a new attack. In 7.4 or 7.5, Phase 2 could add the lower level versions of skills (Protect > PI, Divine Seal > Temperance, etc), and if SE wants to further soften the Pure/Barrier split, implementing Stoneskin/Graniteskin and the Afflatus upgrades could occur at this time. Finally, in 8.0 with the expansion release (due to the UI elements required for it), the Nature's Vigilance gauge, the spender, and the associated 'refund attacks' (Quake, Flood, Tornado) could be implemented.

Then, the same applies to the other healers. By adding things in smaller chunks, it allows the devs to A: break up the workload so as not to overburden their pipeline, B: get feedback on each portion's balance as they go (allowing them to adjust potencies/CDs for balance alongside the implementation of the next phase), and C: getting 'something' out sooner rather than saying 'wait 2 years and see what happens' would give a massive show to disillusioned vets of the role that 'we are listening, we are changing things, this is just a taste of what's to come', and for a lot of said vets, a change that shows that there's something coming down the pipeline would be enough to get them saying 'Hey, these Phase 1 changes for WHM (Dia duration change, Banish added) have helped the WHM gameplay out, and there's more coming in another patch? Well, this change was good, so I guess I'll stick around and see what they're cooking'

edit (ough):

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

In any case, I don't think making 10 bars filled with spells to juggle and systems will get people to stay. Complexity doesn't have to be resumed to how many spells you have and how many different buttons you push. And sure, let's say they make every single class an incredibly high ceiling to master. For a while it will keep ppl "happy" and then, people will master it, and they will say it's not complex enough anymore.

Also, the class complexity is just a symptom of a much bigger issue. You cannot just slap a band-aid (class redesign) and say everything will be fine.

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1: I'm not asking for 10 bars filled with spells to juggle. These designs add, I think the highest button count was '3 more than DT has' with SCH. Reducing button count on SCH in particular feels like a challenge, because all of its actions feel very 'it sucks, but used together with other tools, they become greater than the sum of their parts', but there's a couple of things that could go. Like Repose. And Rescue. And to an extent, if MP balancing were changed up to support it, Lucid Dreaming. For WHM, I'd only need to add 2 buttons if SE acquiesced to the plan to add a Barrier-based Lily spender. If Stoneskin and Graniteskin didn't make the cut, then it'd be +-0, since the 2 buttons I'd add (Blessing of the Elementals, Banish) would be counteracted by the 2 I'd remove (by having Cure upgrade to Cure2, and Medica to Medica2 (and then Medica3)).

2: I'm not sure anyone (in numbers big enough to matter) is saying that a high-ceiling class is 'not complex enough' when they 'master' it. EG, in EW, Black Mages at the top of their game didn't say 'oh BLM is too simple for my massive brain', they praised how versatile it was, how many options it had to adapt, etc. I also don't remember anyone complaining that MNK was 'too simple' when TK rotation accidentally appeared in Stormblood, but I do remember A: people who learned TK saying 'its cool that we have an optional, highly technical alternative that gives a very small (and ultimately unrequired) DPS gain' and B: people who didn't want to learn TK saying 'I don't want to learn this highly technical rotation' but not realizing that they could still parse orange with the standard rotation (source: I raided with a guy who did exactly this back in SB), and definitely not needing to learn 'the highly technical alternative rotation' to clear the fights, even in week 1 gear (and in MNK's case, this was back when everyone was going on and on about needing NIN DRG BRD MCH/SMN comp cos 'its meta')

3: SE slapped a 'bandaid' (class redesign) onto SMN because of how people felt about it in SHB, and now it gets criticism for its simplicity pretty often. I think it's entirely possible that the bandaid of a class redesign can have the opposite effect, and raise the perception of the job, if said design is 'good'. Whether the ones I've made here are 'good' is subjective, but I'd like to believe they would offer more gameplay for the healers than what is currently on offer. Additionally, one of the big issues with the current healers is that they have a lot of similarity in their kits, especially SCH/SGE having literal copies of certain actions (eg Ixochole/Indom are same potency, E-Prog/Concitation are the same potency of barrier, etc). So, if a player were to 'master' SCH in the current game, and swap to SGE for reclears, they're already most of the way to 'mastery' of SGE due to that similarity. But, with these redesigns, SCH has stancedancing to master, and SGE has Kardia interplay to master, and the two are much more divorced from one another in their 'optimal gameplay', even with still sharing some actions (eg Ixochole/Indom), because for example, SCH would be able to manipulate that Indom via their Strategies to make it heal for more, or to apply a barrier instead. Conversely, SGE would be able to apply the 'lossless' barrier that SCH can (via Defensive-Indom) to the party over the course of 4 GCD attacks (via a combination of Zoe and Pankardia), but that requires A: being able to hit the enemy, and B: 4 GCDs of setup time. And that means having to think about how you'd do the fight very differently between all four healers, extending the 'Time To Mastery' somewhat

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

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1. Perhaps you didn't specifically say it, but it's a tune that constantly plays when a class complexity topic arises or is discussed. As I said, there are some interesting ideas on paper, and it would be nice for SE to have a lot more creative liberty with classes rather than localize pre-existing ones from other games.

2. The funny thing about BLM is that while doing triple transpose was insanely difficult and you could pat yourself on the back for managing it, the return of it was hardly even worth it. More of a bragging right than anything else. There's a reason why certain classes are less preferred in certain fights. How can you ensure all classes are equally designed and offer the ability to play them regardless of difficulty or fight design?

3. I mean, perhaps it's a simple class but it still delivers what it was intended. SMN is not even all that popular in high-end content, and not because it's too simple but because there are better options that fulfill the designed role better, *cough* Picto *cough*.
As for SGE vs SCH, maybe their core idea is the same but they are really not all that alike beyond the fact they can shield.

For me, having reliable disposable heal/mits is important. Your design might work if the fights were adjusted to accommodate that change but the way some fights are designed now it will simply make certain classes a pain to deal with in the end content especially Ultimates where mechanics are very fast and you need to be precise. Nobody has time to shuffle a million cards and manage 10 bars.

"What does 'sprout' means here, though? Inexperienced? First timer? Or literally players with sprout icon?
I think it's fair to assume when you decided to step into these 'high end contents' you are required to have decent proficiency (not full mastery) of your chosen job, healers included."

I can mean one of those things or all of them. As for the rest, go in PF for a while and you will be surprised with the findings.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

That's the problem, is not a class, is an entire role that has been coddled by the devs and designed as "baby's first job".

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For a lot of content, baby's first job is the tank. It's just so forgiving.

Absolutely easiest time I have playing is being 'off tank' for 8 or 24 man contents where I am just an immortal half-dps that doesn't need to move out of mechanics.

I see people bringing up "but what about ultimates?" again, so I feel the need to point out again that ultimates were introduced in Stormblood, when most jobs still retained complexity and flexibility and people managed to clear it back then.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

While many ideas sound cool on paper, I would dread them in-game. Having to juggle so many systems and resources will make the ceiling of a class extremely daunting and high. Pair that savage and ultimates and you are in for the vast majority that would not even dare to touch it. Savage and Ultimates are already daunting to jump into as a sprout, having this complex system will further push people away from those.

I do honestly think, there is nothing wrong with having a mix of complexity. It's not wrong to have a class that is easy to understand and play.

Also, what are these super complex classes for? which type of content?

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I argue any job should be easy to pick up but should have a high skill ceiling. There shouldn’t ever be a situation we’re you have sleep inducing jobs that press 1 button over 100 times per fight. Also these fights are ultimates and savage they are supposed to be hard and a challenge. People should work and learn these fights and don’t demand hand holding for the very single thing in this game.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I see people bringing up "but what about ultimates?" again, so I feel the need to point out again that ultimates were introduced in Stormblood, when most jobs still retained complexity and flexibility and people managed to clear it back then.

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And honestly if complexity is bought back into the game and makes TOP and DSR harder since they were designed in the “hard encounter easy job” era i genuinely couldn’t give less of a f…… if I tried

I’m sick of the totality of the design decisions of this game being bent around ultimates when better ultimate balance leads to worse feeling jobs

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

And honestly if complexity is bought back into the game and makes TOP and DSR harder since they were designed in the “hard encounter easy job” era i genuinely couldn’t give less of a f…… if I tried

I’m sick of the totality of the design decisions of this game being bent around ultimates when better ultimate balance leads to worse feeling jobs

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Funny thing is that it wouldn't make DSR or TOP any harder because most of the complex dance mechanics happen during full downtime with no boss to hit.

If anything, old job gameplay would probably make short phase dps checks like TOP p4 easier because you'd have the flexibility to shift 60s and 90s into it without affecting full burst because full burst only happens every 3 minutes past the opener.

That said, honestly, if more complex jobs makes ultimates harder, so what? That's the content you'd want to tackle after you're already solid on your job of choice anyway, if you're fumbling your rotation, you shouldn't be doing ultimate on that job.

I've tried to say, that additional DPS complexity would theoretically be balanced such that it is mostly ignorable in all content (eg on SCH you wouldn't need to do stancedancing to get the +20p via Offensive, even in an Ultimate). This mentality of 'you need to do the optimal damage or you've failed at the game' needs to stop, so we can get back to 'the most important aspect of clearing the fight, is clearing the fight, not the funny coloured number you get afterwards'. We're playing FFXIV, not FFLogs

But ignoring that for a moment, I would look at the other parts of the kit, and I'd argue (though I might be biased) that some of the changes I listed would make even an Ultimate easier, rather than harder. Take TOP for example. P6 can be a struggle for SCH because it has to stand still to cast its barriers. With the rework I laid out on page 1, a SCH could ignore Strategy: Offensive (because they don't need the bonus potency to clear because PCT now exists/potency 'bonus' is tuned to be 'optional optimization' in all content, even Ult), and instead camp in Strategy: Defensive for the whole of Phase 6. With that, comes a modification to Indom that makes it an instant OGCD Barrier effect every 30s, Excog gets a Galvanise attached that can be Deployed, Protraction can be Deployed, Fey Blessing gets turned into a Barrier (which then gives a regen when it breaks), etc. There would be so many more tools at the SCH's disposal to overcome that weakness of 'I can't really cast barriers very well while I'm running to dodge stuff/get to position'

WHM would have an additional healing action that doesn't cost damage, reducing how often the player has to rely on Medica spam/Cure3 spam, and would have around 60% of its damage actions be instantcaasts, vastly increasing its mobility (especially good for keeping damage up in phases like Hello World). SGE would have the ability to apply barriers without dropping its damage, via Kardia manipulation, and the reworked Krasis would allow it free movement with any action (giving 4 stacks of 'next spell casts instantly'). For both of these, avoiding needing to GCD heal means dealing more damage, and that makes the DPS check more lenient. However, for those SGEs who want to play 'safer' by relying on GCD shielding (eg they don't feel confident they can do the 'set up' required for Kardia-based barriers, and prefer the 'on demand' nature of E.Prognosis), they'd still be able to do that, as the DPS check of TOP was designed with that strategy being 'the only way to do it' back then.

The one that I might agree with, that 'it might be too complex for Ultimates', would be AST. But AST has always been busy to play, look at EW AST with all the Draws and Plays in the opener there. I don't think what I had for AST is necessarily 'more complex' to execute than something like EW AST, but it could be argued that this reworked AST has more 'burden of knowledge' due to needing to know card effects. That, however, could be addressed with UI elements, such as how cards got a coloured border on the job gauge in EW to denote if they're Melee or Ranged. So a card in this system, let's say Bole, would have a symbol next to it to indicate 'this is best on a Tank'. But as a reminder of how much 'simpler' EW AST was to execute in an Ultimate compared to what I posted here, here's an example of EW AST's opener (thank you Fanbyte):

https://static.fanbyte.com/uploads/2...tro_opener.png

I've not fully thought about it, but my assumption for this redesigned AST's opener would be...:

Earthly Star > Potion > Prepull Malefic > Royal Road > Play Major Arcana > Malefic > Royal Road > Divination > Malefic > Play Major Arcana > Oracle > Malefic (opener ends here, spam Malefic until Minor Arcana comes up)

...Maybe with a Redraw or two in there, depending on how the cards come up. But even including as many Redraws as possible (assuming the worst 'luck' with cards), this opener still has less APM than the EW opener. So the source of this AST's complexity can't be from its mechanical execution, but rather, from having to learn all the new card effects. But as mentioned above, A: Card effects would have 'assistance' in the UI, to help teach new players which card is best on which role, and B: while the job would ask that you learn 6 Major Arcana effects, 6 Minor Arcana effects, and then 3 Royal Road interactions, these are split up into brackets at level 30, 50 and 70. So a veteran player would have all these changes thrown at them at once, and have to learn everything in one go, but the player who picks up this AST fresh, would have 20 levels to get used to the Major Arcana and internalize how they work, before being presented with the next chunk of knowledge (Minor Arcana), allowing them to build their understanding of the Job's systems in more manageable pieces. That's the whole point of the levelling process, surely?

For a Veteran player, who is having trouble internalizing the changes (because they're trying to learn the level 30, 50 and 70 knowledges all at once), luckily we have a system in the game wherein we can go back to older dungeons, and be level sync'd down to a lower level. So, if this system were implemented in the game, personally I'd run a dungeon like Brayflox Longstop a couple of times, to learn the Major Arcana effects. Once I'd done that to the point where I'm 'comfortable', I'd move onto a level 50+ dungeon like Sohm Al (not Dusk Vigil cos I hate it) or The Aery, and practice in that level bracket a bit to get a handle on the Minor Arcana effects. At the same time, being in that level bracket would allow me to test myself and see how well I've learned the Major Arcana effects too. Finally, I'd move onto level 70+ dungeons like Holminster Switch to learn the Royal Road interactions. Throwing yourself into the deep end in a current dungeon, while not my personal recommendation, is also entirely possible now without feeling like you're griefing others, because we can do Trust dungeons too

I do agree that there needs to be some consideration applied to making sure that old Ultimates don't get 'harder because my job changed', because that's a worse feeling than 'old Ultimate (cough UCOB) doesn't have a DPS check now that SMN got reworked'. I just don't fully agree that these reworks would necessarily be enough to create that feeling of 'old Ult got harder'

Tiny update to rework AST's Oracle action so that it's not so much of a victim of Crit Variance (I'm tired of seeing it fail to Crit/DHit like a wet noodle). In this rework, rather than a single hit of 860p, it instead deals 12 hits of 60p (totalling 720p), each of which is elementally attuned to the members of the Twelve, as its animation implies (so 2 Fire hits, 2 Ice hits, etc), plus a bonus strike of 150p from your Patron Deity (yes, that system gets to see some use outside of RP with this). Ideally, the VFX of the spell could even change in colour to better match your Patron Deity, allowing players to express their choice with the skill, EG: A player who chose Byregot (Lightning) could have a more purple-looking animation, whereas a player who chose Halone (Ice) would have a pale blue animation. That would mean making 5 more copies of the VFX though so I wouldn't call it 'necessary' per se (assuming the current yellowy-gold one is used for Earth)

Controller, all-rounder enjoyer here with not too much experience (I started about a year ago).

I generally enjoyed seeing the ideas presented here and have been rereading them for the past few weeks. I especially liked the White Mage concept (though not seeing a trait for upgrading Divine Seal into Temperance threw me for a loop on if they were separate until I saw that that should be the case in a previous comment); so much so that I figured it would be interesting to recreate my cross hotbars in what is essentially the leveling process but using the ideas here. The following are my results and how they compare to my current hotbars (currently at level 89) using images that hopefully make sense given the concepts (a few things from the Eureka Exploration Zone for instance).

https://imgur.com/a/YgNglAX
(in case the image embed doesn't work, https://imgur.com/a/YgNglAX)

Hah, now that you explained it people will tl;dr you- you can't win with people who want to just say no, they'll just go for whatever is nearby and toss it at you like pocket sand. If you don't explain your entire belief system, they'll simplify your desires into the worst possible representation, if you attempt to explain it they'll ignore or grasp at SE's pocket book or something. "we can't do that, it's different"... *insert face desk jpg* OF COURSE ITS DIFFERENT WHY AM I GIVING FEEDBACK IF I WANTED IT THE SAME lol.

On the other hand, I had a lot of fun reading your post and just thought to say nice :)

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Originally Posted by UltraBV64

I generally enjoyed seeing the ideas presented here and have been rereading them for the past few weeks. I especially liked the White Mage concept (though not seeing a trait for upgrading Divine Seal into Temperance threw me for a loop on if they were separate until I saw that that should be the case in a previous comment)

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How the

Thanks for pointing that out, I'll add something there to show 'yes Divine Seal does upgrade to Temperance'

Also, I appreciate the time you took into mocking up how you'd arrange your actions on a controller hotbar, I don't play on controller so I can't really visualize how it'd look.
For comparison, I'll do the same, and show what I'd maybe do with my UI:

https://i.gyazo.com/574f9bb0e807654c...20c6f5dc46.png

Maybe I'd swap Banish to 4, and Esuna to 5, or something, given how rarely we have to actually press Esuna. Ctrl-5 was where I used to have Bio2/Aero3 in Stormblood. I also don't have Repose bound since I don't do Deep Dungeons