You pull you tank question.

It's petty to not want to tank from then on, but yeah, what I do it's simply I move on to the next pack and tank it. They can either come to me if they make it, or not.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I just hope they use arm's length and bring them to my AoE range so I don't have to chase them to Narnia for aggro.

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They never do.

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Originally Posted by Midare

It's petty to not want to tank from then on, but yeah, what I do it's simply I move on to the next pack and tank it. They can either come to me if they make it, or not.

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What a good idea. Gonna star doing this.

YPYT is against ToS. Letting your party die intentionally/refusing to play the game is griefing.

It's also just childish. It takes literally one aoe to get aggro back and if someone is pulling for me I'm obviously going too slow, so who cares?

I'm also tired of tanks making their solo fights with the boss if the healer or dps dies. You can't even play or practice mechanics of the boss.

When I read all this, I wonder why I still play tank ... I mean, it's pretty obvious that the dps know exactly how much the healer can take, how much I'm comfortable with, they know exactly how fast I can or want to go with the pulls (or they make me go their speed) ... so, why play tank? (btw, as a dps you do NOT know those things, just to be clear here).

Really, tell me. Because when I play tank, then
- I know after the first pull how good my healer is and how much I can pull. You usually don't, because I'm the one who gets healed the most.
- I also know exactly how much I can pull. While in my case specifically this is W2W obviously, but at my speed, not yours.
- New tanks (and we're talking low level dungeons here) are often still not very comfortable with the role, so pulling for them might stress them out and they might stop playing tank. Don't do that, let them go their pace and follow. And don't expect that they are super comfortable with tanking at level 50, they're probably not.
- I you want the group to go your speed - play tank yourself.

I'm not saying that I would let anyone die if they pull mobs (I wouldn't) - but that doesn't mean I like it (I don't).

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Originally Posted by Aurumis

I'm also tired of tanks making their solo fights with the boss if the healer or dps dies. You can't even play or practice mechanics of the boss.

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I'm guilty of doing that - if the boss is at a low health like 10-15% and I'm positive that I can kill him. Otherwise I just wipe :). But if a boss is that low, you've seen most of the mechanics anyway.

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Originally Posted by Luca_

YPYT is against ToS. Letting your party die intentionally/refusing to play the game is griefing.

It's also just childish. It takes literally one aoe to get aggro back and if someone is pulling for me I'm obviously going too slow, so who cares?

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It's also against the ToS to force someone to play at a speed that is uncomfortable to them

If a tank is new, or if a healer is new, the tank may have reasons not to pull W2W.

Sometimes the tank knows what mobs are ahead and doesnt want to mix them with the current batch of mobs.

It shouldnt be that big of a deal honestly. The extra 2 minutes to clear the dungeon isnt going to kill anyone.

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Originally Posted by Burmecia

They never do.

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LOL no they don't. And it's been especially bad with picto recently. I AoE that first pack more than usual and I still see green buttons when I get to the second set and the picto just standing back there fighting it XD

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Originally Posted by AmorfaVex

It's also against the ToS to force someone to play at a speed that is uncomfortable to them

If a tank is new, or if a healer is new, the tank may have reasons not to pull W2W.

Sometimes the tank knows what mobs are ahead and doesnt want to mix them with the current batch of mobs.

It shouldnt be that big of a deal honestly. The extra 2 minutes to clear the dungeon isnt going to kill anyone.

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Yknow, a lot of people don't agree with that position and think that W2W is the only proper way to do dungeons, but I honestly think you're right that it's not a big deal if that's not what the party wants to do. My original comment is from the view of being a very confident tank main that always W2Ws, but even then, I personally play it by ear and only pull ahead if I'm certain the tank can handle it or is already in the process of getting to the next pack.

But - and this is where a lot of nuance is lost in the conversation from both sides - the proper thing to do is ask politely that someone stops pulling or running ahead. If you're who the tank is asking to slow down, be a team player and chill out. Try to work something out with your party members. If you can't, just leave and take the 30 minute penalty.

Throwing a tantrum and turning off your tank stance to teach people a lesson by killing them is the most common thing I see, and that's the part that will get you smacked by GMs. YPYT does no one any favors.

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Originally Posted by CatWeazle

I'm guilty of doing that - if the boss is at a low health like 10-15% and I'm positive that I can kill him. Otherwise I just wipe :). But if a boss is that low, you've seen most of the mechanics anyway.

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If it's just a bit of health it's okey. They do this when they have 50-30 of hp and that's stupid. Let people play. I'm not here to see you do a solo tank.

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Originally Posted by CatWeazle

When I read all this, I wonder why I still play tank ... I mean, it's pretty obvious that the dps know exactly how much the healer can take, how much I'm comfortable with, they know exactly how fast I can or want to go with the pulls (or they make me go their speed) ... so, why play tank? (btw, as a dps you do NOT know those things, just to be clear here).

Really, tell me. Because when I play tank, then
- I know after the first pull how good my healer is and how much I can pull. You usually don't, because I'm the one who gets healed the most.
- I also know exactly how much I can pull. While in my case specifically this is W2W obviously, but at my speed, not yours.
- New tanks (and we're talking low level dungeons here) are often still not very comfortable with the role, so pulling for them might stress them out and they might stop playing tank. Don't do that, let them go their pace and follow. And don't expect that they are super comfortable with tanking at level 50, they're probably not.
- I you want the group to go your speed - play tank yourself.

I'm not saying that I would let anyone die if they pull mobs (I wouldn't) - but that doesn't mean I like it (I don't).



I'm guilty of doing that - if the boss is at a low health like 10-15% and I'm positive that I can kill him. Otherwise I just wipe :). But if a boss is that low, you've seen most of the mechanics anyway.

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You say you play tank and then you try and try to make it sound so complicated "How much I can take", lmao. For most dungeons the answer is simple, w2w. And that's that. I am now really curios how exactly do you play tank.
Also it is always nice to remember some simple things: the tank is called tank, not "puller". Also the tank is not some main character or leader of the party. A tank's job is to hold aggro.

ANYONE who intentionally refuses to play the duty, perform the duties of their role, or cooperate with others in order to see the duty to completion is breaking ToS and is classified as griefing.

"you pull you tank" is classified as this in every case.
Letting someone die intentionally is classified as this in every case.
Rescueing someone into something on purpose is classified as this in every case.
Not pressing your damage buttons on purpose, or intentionally only spamming the one weakest ability is classified as this in every case.
Abusing the kick-system to remove players who do not listen to you, or who do not play the way you want them to, but otherwise the player is still cooperating in the completion of the duty would also be classified as griefing.

GM's will primarily use chat logs to determine what is happening. GM's will also look at player location data and actions used by players to see who is doing what at the time of the incident.

YPYT is lethargic gameplay and is reportable.

It is also a symptom of an insecure and bad player. When you encounter these people, simply report, kick, ignore, and move on.

If someone pulls something, I'm going to assume they actually bring it to the rest of the mobs I'm hitting, if not, they why did you pull? Pull it into my AOE please, I suck, I need all the help I can get lol

YPYT is soy energy
I am the tank, oh you pulled more mobs? LOVELY bring them to me my brothers so we may all relish in the glory of COMBAT

As a tank main if people are doing that for me that just tells me i'm not going fast enough, and i must put on my running shoes

Speaking as a primarily tank player this is extremely childish. Considering the extreme linearity of the dungeons for this game if a healer or dps wants to speed things up then lets go. If we die, we die and I get to giggle.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

YPYT is soy energy
I am the tank, oh you pulled more mobs? LOVELY bring them to me my brothers so we may all relish in the glory of COMBAT

As a tank main if people are doing that for me that just tells me i'm not going fast enough, and i must put on my running shoes

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What's wrong with soy? I like soy...

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Originally Posted by Tint

Well here are the rules:



So yes refusing to tank is against the rules. But running ahead and start pulling could be considered "uncooperative behavior" and "aiding the enemy" as well.

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This, but also you have possible violations under MPK or compelling a player style depending on the details of the situation. YPYT is actually the default stance any developer would have/lean toward simply because they're not going to allow any group of players in a given content to be able to force any amount of stress onto a tank regardless of their personal comfort level. A developer is not going to see a party member run ahead and pull another 3-6 adds, nearly die potentially and drain healer resources, and add uncalculated stress to the tank and justify that behavior and force the tank to take aggro and possibly die in the process. You're compelling a fixed playstyle that isn't demanded in the content itself. Where people mess up is how they respond. By stating that you aren't tanking on purpose and without stating a reason, you open yourself up to a violation because now you're not cooperating with the team and it's not for a reason. All you have to do is not say anything in chat. You can single target and say that you're playing the game the same way as trusts taught you to focus down one target at a time. You can state that you think you'll die and you're not comfortable. You can say that you're lagging. You can just not say anything at all. As stated in Prohibited Behaviors, being apathetic, adversarial is fine. The gameplay is never going to get you a violation, only the speech showing intent to punish a player will land in a possible sanction.

I've always played tank in most mmos, if somebody pulls off you or they pull early, or accidentally or whatever, it's the tanks job to get it back and protect the group. If you're gonna throw a hissy fit over an add that takes a single aoe attack to regain threat maybe you shouldn't be playing tank.

As a tank - the pulls will go smoother if the tank initiates the pull. However it's one GCD to get things under control again. So it's not optimal, but not a dealbreaker.

And I've never encountered this behavior on the JP data centers. What a strange mindset.

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Originally Posted by Alyko

As a tank - the pulls will go smoother if the tank initiates the pull. However it's one GCD to get things under control again. So it's not optimal, but not a dealbreaker.

And I've never encountered this behavior on the JP data centers. What a strange mindset.

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You've never encountered it on JP, because JP players expect a modicum of skill from each other. NA and EU seem to like coddling the lowest common denominator and wasting everyone else's time.

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Originally Posted by Alyko

And I've never encountered this behavior on the JP data centers. What a strange mindset.

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JP tends to have players that are more respectful and a higher base skill level so it's not as big of an issue by default.

Not sure if it's the case nowadays, but years ago at least, I had heard/experienced in lower dungeons at least, that wall to wall pulls were less common. This would be pulling likely 7/8 (strong) or 9+ adds at a time between bosses, only stopping when the game doesn't physically let you gather more adds. The issue is that this playstyle is only possible under minimum skill requirements. You need a tank that is capable of rotating mitigation properly, you need a healer that knows their kit well enough to handle the damage in stress, and the damage output to kill the adds before the tank and healer run out of resources since mana and defensive cooldowns are a limited resource. If any of those are missing, you will wipe.

What will often happen is, people (other than the tanks, more commonly dps's, but sometimes healers) will force this situation in every dungeon, regardless of the content level, regardless of their experience with the other players in the group and can possibly wipe the team for no reason. When you have a higher population of "new or low skill" players, this becomes a problem. While this method is expected in high end content, that learning process/curve, imo, is to be handled/discussed by the tank and or healer for what they are comfortable with. As a healer, I will give confidence to my tanks. As a tank, I will give confidence to/advice to my healers if they're open. But there are times where people have anxiety, where people have lag, where people have irl distractions, where that expectation is not going to be met. And instead of discussing that beforehand, it'll be a dps not caring about those factors forcing the situation and causing people's gear to break and the run to take longer because they cause wipes or throw off mitigation rotating.

When you run into enough of these people not being considerate of others, it spawns the mindstate from those of us who can handle bigger pulls, to start punishing people who actively disregard the situation of others in an effort to dissuade them from doing it with random people. Depending on the details of how the aggro is taken by the person pushing the party to handle more and what gets said in chat, you may not have a direct violation of ToS that is easy to report, and it much easier to just enforce YPYT and cause that rushing player to die repeatedly than to deal with filing a ticket. After they die once or twice, they will fall in line after realizing that they are now the one's making the run take longer because their dps is gone and time to group adds is still going to be the same.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I don't care if someone runs ahead. I just hope they use arm's length and bring them to my AoE range so I don't have to chase them to Narnia for aggro.

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This. I dont care if dps and healers pull- just bring it to me at least. Dont run around with the damn thing lol

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Originally Posted by AngaratoSvartberg

as a long time tank its extremely annoying when other people pull. specially in the newer dungeons. just chill and let them pull. if its "too slow" either ask nicely to pull more or deal with it.

that being said i wouldnt be petty about it and stop tanking. however if i have to ask people multiple times to stop pulling and they refuse ill stop and boot that person out.

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As a long time tank, just do your job. It aint that hard and its not a big deal.

My main is tank, I am a warrior.
I honestly don't care.

When I'm playing a WHM or any healer really and my hubby is on PLD. I am always pulling early on him, but that is because he is a nervous tank.
I know I will be able to keep him alive and everyone else. However I don't pull early on others on newer content. Get me in old 24 man content or old 8 man content also fair game.

Also EVERYONE that says YPYT is against the TOS good luck proving it.
GM Why did you get them die.
I got a phone call and was playing with 1 hand.

You would need to have this happen every time and all the time and always reported to get disciplinary action.

Sure it is harassment but that's a tall burden to prove it was direct directly at your because you pulled early.

As someone who tanks Mythic dungeons in WoW, I don't mind other people pulling in FF14 dungeons. Tanking in FF14 is braindead easy. There is hardly a risk of wiping. Wall to wall pulling exists because of how easy tanking in this game is. Even if you do somehow die, whatever. It's not like you're going to brick your key and lose rating. You just respawn and teleport back and get to it.

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Originally Posted by Eluvyel

You're violating two different rules of the ToS doing that. Lethargic Play and MPK. One day it'll be a report too many.

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Nope. I won't stay in the game, I quit the dungeon and take 30mins timeout.

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Originally Posted by FudoMyoo

Nope. I won't stay in the game, I quit the dungeon and take 30mins timeout.

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dps/healer pulling ahead of you? can't say i have that happen to me. i just press sprint and stay ahead of everyone, problem solved.

I'll usually wait, but if it's getting beyond resonable I'm pulling. If they complain they are getting kicked and that's the end of that. Doesn't matter what role they are on, when you queue with randoms it's no longer your own time you are wasting. If they want to kick me that's also fine. Either option I don't deal with a time waster.

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Originally Posted by Zomkei

dps/healer pulling ahead of you? can't say i have that happen to me. i just press sprint and stay ahead of everyone, problem solved.

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If you play tank long enough, you will encounter these players. They can sprint too ... right?

Especially for some DPS, they can't resist this as they need to keep the combo skills on-going. Mainly we are referring to those who deliberately sprint in front of you, pulling everything and letting us (tank) sort out the hate. They don't finish the kill and sprint to the next batch of mobs.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

And the odds of wiping in a dungeon pull are what? Extremely low in level 50/60/70/80/90/100 content from what I've experienced anyway. Levelling not included because everyone knows those pulls can be spicy (except in DT it seems).

Living Dead should be used as a CD anyway and that could be what the Healer is counting on if you're running DRK.

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......... do you even know how it works? It is a very long cool down and if you don't die when it happens the skill does nothing. 50% of the time when a Dark Knight is forced to use it they still die because the healer continues to not heal. So no, the Dark Knight should never be using Living Dead in a random party finder dungeon unless something is going seriously wrong.

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Originally Posted by CheshCa7

You say you play tank and then you try and try to make it sound so complicated "How much I can take", lmao. For most dungeons the answer is simple, w2w. And that's that. I am now really curios how exactly do you play tank.
Also it is always nice to remember some simple things: the tank is called tank, not "puller". Also the tank is not some main character or leader of the party. A tank's job is to hold aggro.

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Well, I play tank for a very long time, so ... I'm not saying I'm "the best" or something, but I consider myself a decent tank. You're saying it yourself: "For MOST dungeons it's w2w". True. For some it's not. I personally go W2W if possible. I try not to pull more than I can handle mainly when I'm running low-level-dungeons in roulettes that are not streamlined for w2w. I'm one of those tanks who uses mitigation and I do all I can not to let anyone die. There, now you know how I tank.

Btw: The dps is also not called "puller".

Going into a dungeon in a group is cooperation, like it or not. But what I hear from most people here is "hey, I want to have fun my way, and all others have to follow that playstyle" ... that's not how it should be. It should be fun for everyone. When I play dps for example, I simply let the tank set the pace. It doesn't hurt me, it's usually not THAT much slower, I go nuts on the mobs the tank has pulled and we finish the dungeon smoothly. Everyone is happy.

Just don't make me play healer, we'd all die at the first trash pack. Repeatedly. :D

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Originally Posted by Karkarov

......... do you even know how it works? It is a very long cool down and if you don't die when it happens the skill does nothing. 50% of the time when a Dark Knight is forced to use it they still die because the healer continues to not heal. So no, the Dark Knight should never be using Living Dead in a random party finder dungeon unless something is going seriously wrong.

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Sounds like you should communicate with your healer and let them know you're gonna use Living Dead, then. Also it's not like you're gonna use it for anything else so why not use it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

For the people saying it's ToS for a tank to let someone who pulls die.
It's also ToS for a DPS to pull, it falls undergiving the enemy NPC's advantage, since as a tank I've popped my cooldowns, I don't have the mit to deal with additional mobs right now.

The ToS argument is stupid, it's unprovable and can easily be attributed to anyone.

Wall to wall is fine, but if the tank isn't pulling wall to wall, maybe stop ask why. You don't know as DPS what's going on.

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Originally Posted by Malthir

For the people saying it's ToS for a tank to let someone who pulls die.
It's also ToS for a DPS to pull, it falls undergiving the enemy NPC's advantage, since as a tank I've popped my cooldowns, I don't have the mit to deal with additional mobs right now.

The ToS argument is stupid, it's unprovable and can easily be attributed to anyone.

Wall to wall is fine, but if the tank isn't pulling wall to wall, maybe stop ask why. You don't know as DPS what's going on.

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You do literally the same thing whether it's 3 or 6 or 9 mobs. You are doing something incredibly wrong if you "run out of cooldowns" because you can't handle the rhythm of "2 big pulls, boss, 2 big pulls, boss...", because that only forces you to use your cooldowns more efficiently.

You open with your short CD and a heavy cooldown (Arm's Length or 30%, don't use both at once). You'll always, always have either big cooldown available this way, with invuln as a safety net. The only way you mess up is if you start randomly splitting the pulls and wasting your better mitigation on small groups.

The DPS is trying to help you play smarter if anything.

And yes, it's pretty obvious even to DPS players when you have to use a invuln, but before that happens they have no reason to not pull while you and your party have that get-out-of-jail-free card still available. If you immediately melt and have to invuln, then sure, it's probably really stupid for the DPS to continue to pull. Calling it "against TOS" is still a huge fucking stretch though.

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Originally Posted by Malthir

For the people saying it's ToS for a tank to let someone who pulls die.
It's also ToS for a DPS to pull, it falls undergiving the enemy NPC's advantage, since as a tank I've popped my cooldowns, I don't have the mit to deal with additional mobs right now.

The ToS argument is stupid, it's unprovable and can easily be attributed to anyone.

Wall to wall is fine, but if the tank isn't pulling wall to wall, maybe stop ask why. You don't know as DPS what's going on.

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Just how bad is your gear if you're having to use cooldowns on single pulls? An awake healer can keep themselves/a dps alive for that, and they lack the innate 20% mitigation trait.

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Originally Posted by Malthir

For the people saying it's ToS for a tank to let someone who pulls die.
It's also ToS for a DPS to pull, it falls undergiving the enemy NPC's advantage, since as a tank I've popped my cooldowns, I don't have the mit to deal with additional mobs right now.

The ToS argument is stupid, it's unprovable and can easily be attributed to anyone.

Wall to wall is fine, but if the tank isn't pulling wall to wall, maybe stop ask why. You don't know as DPS what's going on.

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If you dont wipe that way the dps was correct in pulling more and if you do wipe that way the main contributer to that wipe is you because any pull that is dicey with 4 people will be a wipe with one person down since you lack the damage to kill enemies before your resources run out. The only thing you are proving is that you dont understand how to play as tank.

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Originally Posted by Malthir

For the people saying it's ToS for a tank to let someone who pulls die.
It's also ToS for a DPS to pull, it falls undergiving the enemy NPC's advantage, since as a tank I've popped my cooldowns, I don't have the mit to deal with additional mobs right now.

The ToS argument is stupid, it's unprovable and can easily be attributed to anyone.

Wall to wall is fine, but if the tank isn't pulling wall to wall, maybe stop ask why. You don't know as DPS what's going on.

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Intent would have to be demonstrated that the goal was to MPK, something of which you can only feasibly do if the DPS were to pull and then subsequently not DPS at all without prior communication. Newer tanks won't know what they really are capable of until they try big pulling to see how it goes.

Intent for lethargy is much more easily derived if you're touting "You pulled that? Nah, you can tank it and die buddy".

ToS is not unproveable, and nor can it be attributed to absolutely anyone.

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Originally Posted by Aurumis

I'm also tired of tanks making their solo fights with the boss if the healer or dps dies. You can't even play or practice mechanics of the boss.

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Trade: dps stops running ahead of tank (because their sprint came off cd like 3 sec too late or something), expecting tank to grab the trash off them when it should be dps bringing their hault to tank, and we stop soloing bosses when you mofos die to first aoe or something as ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

You do literally the same thing whether it's 3 or 6 or 9 mobs. You are doing something incredibly wrong if you "run out of cooldowns" because you can't handle the rhythm of "2 big pulls, boss, 2 big pulls, boss...", because that only forces you to use your cooldowns more efficiently.

You open with your short CD and a heavy cooldown (Arm's Length or 30%, don't use both at once). You'll always, always have either big cooldown available this way, with invuln as a safety net. The only way you mess up is if you start randomly splitting the pulls and wasting your better mitigation on small groups.

The DPS is trying to help you play smarter if anything.

And yes, it's pretty obvious even to DPS players when you have to use a invuln, but before that happens they have no reason to not pull while you and your party have that get-out-of-jail-free card still available. If you immediately melt and have to invuln, then sure, it's probably really stupid for the DPS to continue to pull. Calling it "against TOS" is still a huge fucking stretch though.

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If I start a fight, against 3 mobs I'm still using Cd's because this is the fight, these 3 mobs, time to kill 3 is the same as time to kill 6. If I've popped these and then you as a dps get bored and decided you want more mobs and run off an puil when it is not the DPS's role to pull, as taught to players via the novice hall. Then you've given advantage to the npc enemies as I don't have the mit and it's not you job to pull.

My point was the whole ToS argument is stupid as you can make a logical argument for both side being ToS. If you pull and the tank is not ready for those mobs, you're getting stomped out by those mobs until the tanks ready to deal with them. Leave tanking to the tanks. The novice hall covers that it's the tanks job to pull mobs, therefor the dev's have made their stance on this clear, tanks pull dps don't. I'm all for people having dialogue with one another and discussing as a team, but what happens the majority of the time, is a member of DPS get's bored, mid way through a smaller pull, so they use their range attack to grap the next pack, which the tank and healer may not be ready for, no discussion no can we go faster, just here deal with this too because I've got the attention span of a 5 year old. At the end of the day nothing changes, DPS are selfish players that only think of themselves. DPS love saying Tanks have ego, but we pale in comparison to DPS giant egos.

By the same logic every tank doing more than a single pull is "against ToS". If the DPS can't have awareness of the tank's situation then by the same token you as tank can't have awareness of the healer's situation. How do you know you aren't accidentally griefing by dragging along some poor healer without knowing their cooldown situation? How do you know the DPS are up for the task of killing bigger groups fast enough, for that matter?

See how silly it gets? You have to constantly assume everyone is the worst player ever not to be toxic by this logic.

The DPS assuming you have basic competence is not griefing. It's not ego either.