Please don't change Viper

In case this changes anything, just want to put my voice out there and also say please don't change viper. It is solo carrying all the enjoyment I am having in this expansion. After years and years of job rework, I don't really jive with any of them anymore. Now I finally clicked with viper, not because it resembles things that I liked, but rather because it feels so different to play. I love it because of how busy it is and how I'm juggling its rotation to try to optimize it on the fly. Being busy is what makes viper fun. Having simple things that you have to do really fast also makes my subway surfer brain happy.


So please, don't change viper. At the very least, leave it be for a bit and let people feel it out. We haven't even had a week to play with it yet, and I'm sure many players were focusing on the MSQ and have not leveled viper yet. Those people wouldn't even know how great viper feels at this rate!

The jobs braindead easy, what could they possibly change? Okay that's not entirely fair, it's not Nu Summoner easy but my point still stands. What issues are people having that CBU3 feels the need to fix?

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Originally Posted by Palladiamors

The jobs braindead easy, what could they possibly change? Okay that's not entirely fair, it's not Nu Summoner easy but my point still stands. What issues are people having that CBU3 feels the need to fix?

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I believe they mention positionals, the positionals are not that bad once you learn them.. I think they may keep the positionals at the ends of the main combos but revoce the other 2 which is not cool really as they dont take much effort to read and do.

Fun? In MY FFXIV? That's preposterous!

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Originally Posted by AngaratoSvartberg

I absolutely love this job and you're already going to simplify it? maybe just add another ingame tutorial? its really easy and super busy its so fun it feels like a dance. the positionals and speed is what keeps it from being braindead.

please dont gut it. i dont want a slower class. we have a million of those already.

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Sorry to disagree but seeing viper players and movements gives me lots of anxiety and that's something SE needs to take care and resolve immediately.

Probably giving it the 2 min window meta sill solve the issue for us.

Im mind blown theyre changing it, its like the easiest job to play in the game now besides monk with those awful changes.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

Sorry to disagree but seeing viper players and movements gives me lots of anxiety and that's something SE needs to take care and resolve immediately.

Probably giving it the 2 min window meta sill solve the issue for us.

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fuck the 2 minute window meta

I'm late to the party. Are they saying it's too difficult?
They might want to work on the story first before job changes. I'm still going through it so I can't say anything definitively yet, but it is a little slow and there are way too many cut scenes now.

so I actually looked into what's going on with these viper changes and it looks like it's literally nothing.
Big complaints are coming from the JP community, though same complaints can be seen here:
>combos are a bit confusing when you first get the job
>clarity could be better, especially for colorblind players when concerning hind/flank combo enders
>buffs/debuffs aren't long enough
>some people dislike the lack of a BIG DAMAGE BUTTON like communio/midare
>Ogcds of dreadwinder combo could use more range (this I agree with)

This, in conjunction with the post on lodestone makes it clear the only changes are probably just going to be:
>easing positionals/making it easier to discern for colorblind etc.
>increasing noxious gash to 30-40 seconds instead of 20

SE has no intent on changing the way the job itself works. All that is changing is QoL improvements and clarity.
So it's a nothingburger, there is nothing to complain about. Job will stay the same.
Before anyone whines about whether or not they are gonna be changing/removing positionals, just don't worry about it. In a perfect world there would be 0 positionals and all the best fights in the game don't have positional requirements anyway.

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Originally Posted by AddictedToWitches

so I actually looked into what's going on with these viper changes and it looks like it's literally nothing.
Big complaints are coming from the JP community, though same complaints can be seen here:
>combos are a bit confusing when you first get the job
>clarity could be better, especially for colorblind players when concerning hind/flank combo enders
>buffs/debuffs aren't long enough
>some people dislike the lack of a BIG DAMAGE BUTTON like communio/midare
>Ogcds of dreadwinder combo could use more range (this I agree with)

This, in conjunction with the post on lodestone makes it clear the only changes are probably just going to be:
>easing positionals/making it easier to discern for colorblind etc.
>increasing noxious gash to 30-40 seconds instead of 20

SE has no intent on changing the way the job itself works. All that is changing is QoL improvements and clarity.
So it's a nothingburger, there is nothing to complain about. Job will stay the same.
Before anyone whines about whether or not they are gonna be changing/removing positionals, just don't worry about it. In a perfect world there would be 0 positionals and all the best fights in the game don't have positional requirements anyway.

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Ok, this feels more reassuring to me at least, they can also take that 2 min window crap and stick it, I find that schtick so boring!

Loving VPR so far, can't wait to have my cuppa log on and carry on levelling it today :D

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

Ok, this feels more reassuring to me at least, they can also take that 2 min window crap and stick it, I find that schtick so boring!

Loving VPR so far, can't wait to have my cuppa log on and carry on levelling it today :D

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While I fully agree, the 2 minute window thing is annoying and limits how classes can play, you know that Viper too works in that meta, right?
With Serpents Ire being 120s and you generating about 50 serpents offering every minute, you usually do one reawaken at 60s, and a double reawaken at 120s

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Originally Posted by ovIm

While I fully agree, the 2 minute window thing is annoying and limits how classes can play, you know that Viper too works in that meta, right?
With Serpents Ire being 120s and you generating about 50 serpents offering every minute, you usually do one reawaken at 60s, and a double reawaken at 120s

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I dont know, im only lvl 85 on VPR and enjoying it so far, I feel the 2 minute meta is absolutely garbage boring and restricted gameplay, SE really need to ditch this meta come 8.0 with the job revision as I don't think there's many people who actually enjoy it.

I agree, Please don't simplify the class, and "simplify" positionals. I've been waiting for proper dual-weilding for almost a decade. (I was excited for Ninja Release but it never felt right) Dual-Wielding comes at a price, and I've never felt more connected to any DPS class than Viper.

If the positionals are already a concern, increase the up-time of true north, allow us to have more stacks (three seems to be the most reasonable) and allow us to get two proper rotations off of one true north stack, If needed please remove True north and add a class specific variant of it for Viper.

In the past I struggled (and mostly ignored) Positional requirements for abilities (and neglected) True North (2014-2016), this has been the first time I have actually cared to understood them with any class and been able to rationalize the rotation so naturally. I'm already close to having it so down, that the mechanics don't become obscured.

I know it's a new class, but making it for everyone (that wants to try it) might take away from it's strengths. Again, I've never had as much fun, and never felt as connected to a DPS class. All I ask is that you not let the feedback from everyone "trying" the class, ruin it for people who may well end up staying with the class. The fast paced / Combo Nature paired with positionals feel very excellent and I couldn't make any recommendations to change the class other than maybe reducing total potency of abilities. Viper is a strong class that should take the time to learn, and learn how and when to best apply their strengths, and mitigate their weaknesses.

So far I think DT is amazing. ♥

The viper change is evidence for one thing: SE is not confident in their job design. They are deathly afraid of letting players fail while they get better. Reacting on feedback on how difficult an entirely new job is that has barely been out for an entire week is plain stupid and the data indicating that such a change is necessary literally cant exist yet. It's just a kneejerk reaction. I wish SE had their own vision that they actually stick to.

Honestly this reminds me of the reaper mains that said that the weakness dot debuff thing should be removed from Reaper.
Im instantly thinking wtf that's literally the only thing you have to maintain on reaper??

Even the data that we do have suggest that viper is not too difficult in any way. The aggregated logs from the first extreme trial have viper with the second highest median, the second highest minimum and far and away the most clears logged. People are playing viper and they are not failing to put out damage compared to other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Even the data that we do have suggest that viper is not too difficult in any way. The aggregated logs from the first extreme trial have viper with the second highest median, the second highest minimum and far and away the most clears logged. People are playing viper and they are not failing to put out damage compared to other jobs.

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It's so crazy that they'll "fix" a perfectly fine job within 2 weeks of launch. Yet they haven't touched support roles in 5 years and machinist's flamethrower for the same amount of time. Wtf is the priorities of the job design team right now.

For the sake of the job identity please please please don't change Viper. Make me believe on job identity for real. Or job identity is just an meanless and shallow marketing campaign?

What kind of feedback could they have received after one week that led to this decision? Where was it posted? When?
Are they high?

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

What kind of feedback could they have received after one week that led to this decision? Where was it posted? When?
Are they high?

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There was one sarcastic post with 2 likes. That's apparently the threshold.

Oh joy! I haven't even started to play Viper yet and they are already messing with it, assumingly because I am moderately interested in it!

DRK: Screwed because people didn't want to learn how to play it, now it's worse off.

SCH: Screwed because people didn't want to learn how to play it, now it's worse off.

SMN: Screwed because people REALLY didn't want to learn how to play it, now it's a job for lobotomites.

Here's a thought. Maybe, you should do what you said, and not kneejerk react to like one person on JP forums complaining that after 1 week of playing a job they aren't doing optimal DPS.

Here's another one. If you don't enjoy a job, stop playing it. Stop ruining it for people who do like it, like you keep doing for every goddamn job in this game.

Please don't touch Viper for the sake of job identity you SE has mentioned. Don't ruin one of the last class we melee dps can play and have fun. Don't make viper another SAM MNK SMN etc.:mad::mad::mad:
Just bought Dawntrail because of Viper. Come on SE. Don't make me cancel the sub please. Viper the way it is is the only reason I still play this game gosh.

14 is full of people who want to be involved with stuff they don't actually want to do I feel, I think job changes overlap a little bit with that sometimes

Cause I've met people that play jobs just for fantasy reasons and complain that the job sucks the entire time but won't play a job that might have gameplay they like because that's not the point. Two cases I've personally encountered:

I need to be a dark knight! Why is it a tank, this sucks, I just like dark souls and want to have a big sword, why do I have to learn about aggro.

I need to play monk! I like punching things. Why is the rotation so complicated, why do I have to do positionals.

Then non job stuff like playing pvp for gear while insisting it's miserable but refusing to quit, same for the fall guys event. Just "this is awful I hate it" then proceeding to play more because REWARDS, MUST CONSUME REWARDS RAGHH

Watching people unsync grind for a horse mount and then say it's ugly and then continue grinding..

Like I can understand the fun they're having but it feels like a lot of people really don't like the game they're playing, they just like doing stuff with their friends or the rewards that they can get in the game but not the process of getting them

A job is a skin for some players and any difficulty is just getting in the way of their fun pressing buttons and seeing cool effects. A skill floor or ceiling is getting in the way of doing content with their friends. It's getting in the way of getting that glamour I want, or even some content I think is trash but that I'm going to collect because it's there. I must see all content and do all things but never be challenged in doing so.

Agreed I really hope they don't change and ruin Viper, it's a very fun job I've enjoyed playing through the MSQ as, and it's my new main. I very much enjoy the business of it and don't want them messing with stuff like positionals anymore. It's not even a particularly difficult job, it may be a little hard at first to learn because a lot of abilities are condensed into one keybind but it just works if you sit down and learn it (like we did learning every other job in the game). I was sad to see Monk lose it's buff and DoT management which was my favorite job to play, but Viper gives me a similar feel that I enjoyed playing Monk. Please don't make a hasty decision when we've barely got time to play the new job.

If they make viper slower I will actually unsub, I already decided it's my main after finally moving on from Samurai once and for all, which also got a worse change once again.
The story in DT was already a disappointment, first time I was disappointed by the game in fact. If they make the class I play worse for the third time in a row, I've lost all hope in the game actually getting better. It will prove me it willonly get worse and worse.

Friends told me about this yesterday and I couldn't believe it T.T This is a super simple job! Even I am picking it up and getting some good dps in and that should be saying something! I love the combo's and the interactions. If you stack things right, you can combo for daaaaaays and have buffs always up and its just great please please please don't change (I know a losing fight T.T)

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Originally Posted by Aulainn

If they make viper slower I will actually unsub, I already decided it's my main after finally moving on from Samurai once and for all, which also got a worse change once again.
The story in DT was already a disappointment, first time I was disappointed by the game in fact. If they make the class I play worse for the third time in a row, I've lost all hope in the game actually getting better. It will prove me it willonly get worse and worse.

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they mentioned positionals mostly so im hoping thats the only thing thats changed. I am still against that and think its really dumb but id prefer them gone over the speed being make slower.

They still should keep positional the only issue with them is the lack of clarity with the job gage.
There is two options either rework the job gage or make the positional be in fonction of the button pressed by rearranging the combo route.
So that everytime the left side of the sword glow blue it's a rear positional and vice versa.

Naoki Yoshida please reconsider this change. I still am not clear on the positionals myself but thats okay! It gives me a goal to play toward and learn the class properly.

I would like to add my voice to this. I greatly enjoy Viper in it's current state- directional requirements and busyness included. Please don't change the busyness! It's what makes Viper fun. Also, the positionals are not hard to manage around. I've found a way to help me learn them until I have it memorized that works well, so I hope others can find the same way. These aren't aspects of Viper that should be changed.

If anything, the only aspects that could use adjustment are in Dreadwinder and Pit of Dread- but not those actions specifically. Instead, I'd rather change the gauge increase being on Hunter's/Swiftskin's Coil and Hunter's/Swiftskin's Den to it being on the initial actions of Dreadwinder or Pit of Dread- in any situation where you can't complete both follow-up actions, you end up with only 5 gauge, and that feels awkward. This issue is mostly common in dungeons so far.

The other aspect I'd like adjusted is an increased range on Twinfang and Twinblood actions. Using Dreadwinder actions while doing mechanics can sometimes force me to move out of range, but the tightness of the GCD with Hunter's/Swiftskin's Coil means in that situation, I have to let my GCD rest while i finish up the oGCD actions, which could be solved by having a slightly increased range on them, similar to GNB's Hypervelocity. This issue is mostly common in trials.

The above two points are what I would like addressed, but I still firmly believe the busyness of the job and the use of directional requirements actually adds enjoyable complexity to the job and makes it engaging. Those aspects of Viper should not be adjusted.

Why change it? It hasn't even been out for a month yet

I like Viper as it is, but I also hate positionals. So I'm of two minds on this.

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Originally Posted by Ardeth

I like Viper as it is, but I also hate positionals. So I'm of two minds on this.

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I don't want to say "Summoner main so opinion invalid", but here's the real secret: if you hate positionals, you can not do them. The damage gain for hitting 100% of positionals over the course of a long fight is 3-5%. Ignoring positionals completely is fine in 99.99% of content.

When the majority of SMN mains complained that DT's lack of changes was disappointing, and Neo Bahamut does nothing for the rotation and you still just "eat your gummies" to play, melee mains didn't all pop in here to weigh in and go "well actually, this is a good thing because..."

Sorry, but people really need to learn when and how to stay in their lane.

I really do think jobs are best designed when you don't have to do the optimal rotation in the majority of content but I think players will assume they have to and then run into stuff they can't do and complain

But you don't need to do it

Can we just get that through everyone's heads

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Originally Posted by AngaratoSvartberg

I absolutely love this job and you're already going to simplify it? maybe just add another ingame tutorial? its really easy and super busy its so fun it feels like a dance. the positionals and speed is what keeps it from being braindead.

please dont gut it. i dont want a slower class. we have a million of those already.

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The two skills that have 2 charges cannot really be used until you apply your own buffs through your skills. This is the thing that needs to change imo. The buffs should be triggered through many other skills.

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Originally Posted by SushiOishiiii

The two skills that have 2 charges cannot really be used until you apply your own buffs through your skills. This is the thing that needs to change imo. The buffs should be triggered through many other skills.

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Absolutely untrue. The current/WIP Balance opener is, yes, to apply Noxious Gnash and self-apply haste; but then immediately use Dreadwinder to apply the second 20s of Gnash and to apply the personal damage up. I also don't know what you mean that the buffs should be triggered through "many other skills" when your single target combo, AoE combo, and Dreadwinder/Pit of Dread all apply it. What else could we possibly need?

This community sometimes lol...

They take one of the easiest classes with so few keybindings and are going to nerf it further because you all cannot even handle that.

I have like 20 keybindings on viper. The class is easy and intuitive as it is.

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Originally Posted by Brian25

This community sometimes lol...

They take one of the easiest classes with so few keybindings and are going to nerf it further because you all cannot even handle that.

I have like 20 keybindings on viper. The class is easy and intuitive as it is.

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The majority of this thread and threads in English on Viper are pro keeping it the way it is

Do you have a hobby of not reading threads you post in

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Originally Posted by gllt

The majority of this thread and threads in English on Viper are pro keeping it the way it is

Do you have a hobby of not reading threads you post in

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I fully understand the context of this thread, I am just not surprised that they are nerfing based on player whining. The "you all" was in a broad sense, meaning the FFXIV community at large, and not specifically referring to this thread, because lets face it, there have been many other instances where people complained about difficulty and that is how we got to where we are at with some of these dumbed down classes.

Not sure how much value these forum posts have, but I agree with the underlying premise of "don't change viper". It's fun as is!