When are we as player going to demand from SE a better MSQ experience

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Originally Posted by Valkret

First off, I am not referring to the story. I am talking about the gameplay. We are now on the 5th expansion and the MSQ formula remains the same; talk to a couple of npcs, do some fetch quest, talk to more npcs, kill one or two mobs every couple of hours, rinse and repeat. It's feels extremely outdated. I think in the span of an expansions MSQ (excluding trails and dungeons) we probably don't get to kill more than 30 mobs.

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This is how I want a MMORPG to work:
10 minutes of story
10 minutes of combat
10 minutes of explore

Optional quests unlock "free gear" for that level. MSQ quests reward only EXP. No money.
Money is only earned by completing the dungeon at levelsync+ilevel sync or the first time.
Roulette earns you EXP+money the first time that day (eg sellable to NPC only "allag coins"), EXP+ gear tokens thereafter.

What I want to get away from is 4 hours of unvoiced cutscenes and 1, 20 minute dungeon. Do we need exactly a solo duty every 20 minutes, No. But if a "road is dangerous" why aren't we encountering bandits multiple times? Half the MSQ just seems like "go to X, and then walk all the way across the map to Y" encountering nothing dangerous. You just exchange yapping and then more yapping.

I'm not really hating on the fact there is story here. But even I, someone who enjoys the game's story overall, find it somewhat exhausting to basically do the mcguffin quests, and none of them actually involve a fight. But if you go back to EW, and Shadowbringers, you notice that this distance between each dungeon/trial is nearly the same (20 to the first dungeon, and then 15 to each dungeon/trial thereafter.) So why does DT feel so much longer? Are the quests actually longer? The lack of stakes?

Like would it be so much to ask to give us twice as many trials. Like aside from ARR which you basically did nothing of substance for the first 30 levels, why is it that there aren't "trials" that are of a different variety. Maybe not all the trials have to be high stakes choreographic works of art. Why aren't there 8-man duties that aren't trials/raids. Remember how we had 1-hour long 8-man MSQ dungeons that were like 50% cutscene? Can we maybe get some of those types of things back but without the 20 minute cutscenes? Like that original Livia fight in the white devil magitek armor was interesting, but didn't really work because the armor did no damage to the party. Or taking the magitek armor ourselves into something else that requires blowing up doors.

Well, playing through the MSQ further... It only took them like 6 levels into the expansion for things to actually start happening. Until a very specific point, aside from the first Trial fight, everything's been very slow paced and incredibly low stakes.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

But if a "road is dangerous" why aren't we encountering bandits multiple times? Half the MSQ just seems like "go to X, and then walk all the way across the map to Y" encountering nothing dangerous.

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This has always been one of my biggest gripes with he game!! "The road is very dangerous blah blah blah" Then we get on the road and absolutely nothing, or if we are lucky 2 mobs spawn at a predetermined location, but the challenge is so braindead that it takes absolutely no effort at all. Then we are back to the super dangerous road, to talk to several other nps for 3 more hours.

It is not our place to demand and get it all the way we players want, it is first of all the Developers and writers and all that get that say.

The idea by it should be the players doing requesting and demanding it all is old and does not work, like thos expansion or not... eg. I hated Heavensward and Alphinaud and Estinien and Haurchefaunt... and alot others thought it was awesome... I like SB better than HW due to could get more areas but hated Zenos and even more so hated Zenos in what was to come in EW where made no sense.


So please just cut it out, no one here is in the position of anything here anyway as it is.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

It is not our place to demand and get it all the way we players want, it is first of all the Developers and writers and all that get that say.

The idea by it should be the players doing requesting and demanding it all is old and does not work, like thos expansion or not... eg. I hated Heavensward and Alphinaud and Estinien and Haurchefaunt... and alot others thought it was awesome... I like SB better than HW due to could get more areas but hated Zenos and even more so hated Zenos in what was to come in EW where made no sense.


So please just cut it out, no one here is in the position of anything here anyway as it is.

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You clearly did not read the post. I am not talking about anything story related, just gameplay design. Picture this as an example. Imagine the story did not exist in this game. As you are going through the MSQ, when you speak to someone all you see is a blank box. Can the game survive this way? How many players would actually continue playing the game? Now this is obviously an extreme example, but when you compare it to other MMOS (WOW, GW2, BDO, etc) is not really that implausible, because you can play any of these other games without reading a single line text or watching a single cutscene and still have a decent gameplay experience as you level.

I am not asking for FFXIV to be all gameplay and no story through the MSQ, but instead of being 98% story and 2% gameplay, maybe we can do 70% story and 30% gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

It is not our place to demand and get it all the way we players want, it is first of all the Developers and writers and all that get that say.

The idea by it should be the players doing requesting and demanding it all is old and does not work, like thos expansion or not... eg. I hated Heavensward and Alphinaud and Estinien and Haurchefaunt... and alot others thought it was awesome... I like SB better than HW due to could get more areas but hated Zenos and even more so hated Zenos in what was to come in EW where made no sense.


So please just cut it out, no one here is in the position of anything here anyway as it is.

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Ahhh yes the sit down lick boots and enjoy being fed crap, make sure to keep giving them money while they give you crap.

It is 100% the players say otherwise game dies. First and foremost players way, without us there is no game period.

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Originally Posted by Valkret

You clearly did not read the post. I am not talking about anything story related, just gameplay design. Picture this as an example. Imagine the story did not exist in this game. As you are going through the MSQ, when you speak to someone all you see is a blank box. Can the game survive this way? How many players would actually continue playing the game? Now this is obviously an extreme example, but when you compare it to other MMOS (WOW, GW2, BDO, etc) is not really that implausible, because you can play any of these other games without reading a single line text or watching a single cutscene and still have a decent gameplay experience as you level.

I am not asking for FFXIV to be all gameplay and no story through the MSQ, but instead of being 98% story and 2% gameplay, maybe we can do 70% story and 30% gameplay.

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What do you fear about the current story, it is very spot on what happens in the real world in many aspects as what is happening around... alot of the negative stuff coming from people is due to that they refuse to accept what really is going in the world right now and over the past few years as they lack the imagination to seek information elsewhere other than poluted local media, and that it all is stored in the cloud and forgotten or censored/manipulated away by people in power.

It contradicts peoples way of what they believe in what is going on and what is right instead of knowing what is going and what is right and wrong.

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Originally Posted by Malthir

Ahhh yes the sit down lick boots and enjoy being fed crap, make sure to keep giving them money while they give you crap.

It is 100% the players say otherwise game dies. First and foremost players way, without us there is no game period.

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It is more like that alot of things going on in the game contradicts what is going on in your own little bubble that you might want to consider bursting out of, later parts in the game explains it and it is spoton the problem with the Information Age, is not information anymore, but manipulation instead and alot is victims of it, especially huge countries by all means.

I would just like more quests to fight stuff
more gameplay in the MSQ you know

I overall really enjoyed the story of Dawntrail. I just wish I had gotten to play the story instead of watch a movie.

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Originally Posted by Little_Giant

They should start with adding more story through gameplay scenarios. I think single player duties does this decently well, we just need more of it to balance out the all the talking in the cutscenes.
Any situation where I can actually use my abilities in the story is a good situation.

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They don't even need to do a unch of solo scenarios either, just have some voiced dialogue while we walk on a road and enemies attack us in waves

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

It is more like that alot of things going on in the game contradicts what is going on in your own little bubble that you might want to consider bursting out of

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I'd probably give you this. Regardless of what anyone says on the forums, the devs clearly have their vision, whether anyone agrees with it or not.

But then you say this...

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

it is spoton the problem with the Information Age, is not information anymore, but manipulation instead and alot is victims of it, especially huge countries by all means.

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And suddenly you are making zero sense. Talk about serious whiplash.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

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Honestly, it wouldn't be so bad if the writing wasn't also kinda slow, I had an absolute blast in

Shaaloani, between Erenville actually being really entertaining company, the change of pace from forest to wild west, and us throwing that dung into the campfire and the absolute chaos that ensued, it's honestly my favorite zone so far.

Plus I feel like we actually got a bit of our character back, I couldn't help but smile at the "But the Rroneek Erenville, the Rroneek!" dialogue option we got at the beginning of the zone, and the fact that Erenville was just like "Here's a bag, go pick up some bird dung" and our WoL was like "...Ugh, do I really have to?" made me crack up.

Plus there was the entire subplot with the sheriff and the other midlander whose name I forget, as well as meeting Jerryk and the trolley crew's source counterparts that was genuinely kinda touching.

It just really feels like the writing picked up in that zone, albeit I'm still at level 96 in the MSQ so maybe it gets better, but man, we need to get whoever wrote the MSQ for that zone to do more.

Loved Shadowbringers, Endwalker was awesome, this one is a bit slow but it has it moments. Over all enjoyed it.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I'd probably give you this. Regardless of what anyone says on the forums, the devs clearly have their vision, whether anyone agrees with it or not.

But then you say this...



And suddenly you are making zero sense. Talk about serious whiplash.

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It makes perfect sense, especially if you come form an area in the world that is open with information to all things and encourages people to seek out stuff instead of just being coloured by a single path.

Like it or not, Americans, namely US, probably is the ones who got the biggest problems as of the 'English' part of the game that is, but hey lets get a Convicted Felon to rule in six months time, when there is so many other choices from the same branch instead.

Just saying, and remember it all forgotten and put into the cloud instead, for never to be found again.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

The quality of the MSQ and actually reading the story slows down progress quite a bit, but having just beaten the level 95 dungeons and going through the scenes immediately after that... It's very much just been wuk's story, and the WoL is dragged along and forced to agree with everything. I don't even feel like a side character, I feel like I'm not even in the story.

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I wish there was more pushback from the scions and the WOL and to show meaningful growth. It feels weird (and maybe I missed something during the MSQ) that we just seem full willing to mentor the future potential leader of this land, without any real back and forth or any growth on our trust for them.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

It makes perfect sense, especially if you come form an area in the world that is open with information to all things and encourages people to seek out stuff instead of just being coloured by a single path.

Like it or not, Americans, namely US, probably is the ones who got the biggest problems as of the 'English' part of the game that is, but hey lets get a Convicted Felon to rule in six months time, when there is so many other choices from the same branch instead.

Just saying, and remember it all forgotten and put into the cloud instead, for never to be found again.

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It's a garbage written re hash of 2 expacs without the context of those plotlines backdrops. Don't kid yourself, this entire story is an elongated and dumbed down Stb act 1, with a piss poor rendition of Shb act 2 bolted on the end failing to capture the emotions of the shb finale because we only just met these characters and they are all flat, the end goal of the endless is basically eat the souls of the living to keep their heaven alive. Great in what would can you even justify them or be on their side. At least with Emet, he was basically trying to piece us back together, every person alive today is a fractured reincarnation of the ancients, he wants to make us whole again. We can understand his plight what his goal is, but we don't want to sacrifice what is for what was. See the different. DT sets up nothing for the future and nor does it really do anything for the now. It was complete drivel.

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Originally Posted by Roda

Me: a lvl 100 entering a [COUNCIL APPROVED BUTTON PRESSING ZONE] to spawn a monster for a quest: it does nothing but auto attack me and dies in 3 hits.

Content!

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This is my biggest gripe. I'm bored by the gameplay and the open world. And that's coming from a lore person who actually walks around and looks at stuff. It's so disappointing. Why can't you give me *at least* a solo instance and difficulty options? That's literally not affecting anyone else. Mobs my level die 1/3rd through my burst, it's weak sauce.

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Originally Posted by Malthir

It's a garbage written re hash of 2 expacs without the context of those plotlines backdrops. Don't kid yourself, this entire story is an elongated and dumbed down Stb act 1, with a piss poor rendition of Shb act 2 bolted on the end failing to capture the emotions of the shb finale because we only just met these characters and they are all flat, the end goal of the endless is basically eat the souls of the living to keep their heaven alive. Great in what would can you even justify them or be on their side. At least with Emet, he was basically trying to piece us back together, every person alive today is a fractured reincarnation of the ancients, he wants to make us whole again. We can understand his plight what his goal is, but we don't want to sacrifice what is for what was. See the different. DT sets up nothing for the future and nor does it really do anything for the now. It was complete drivel.

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I don't want an additional 10 years with 'Ascians' in it, so please somethign new is better, but suite yourself, people often dwell in the same things but fear change instead of embracing it.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

What do you fear about the current story, it is very spot on what happens in the real world in many aspects as what is happening around... alot of the negative stuff coming from people is due to that they refuse to accept what really is going in the world right now and over the past few years as they lack the imagination to seek information elsewhere other than poluted local media, and that it all is stored in the cloud and forgotten or censored/manipulated away by people in power.

It contradicts peoples way of what they believe in what is going on and what is right instead of knowing what is going and what is right and wrong.

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WOW again you did not read the post. I can see this is not worth arguing with you,

There is a bunch of stuff super easy to do, like the Solution Nine inn, which props are already ingame that are just not there. or Solution Nine Housing. Its not even hard, the map and style and props are already there and they have the code programmed for other cities, its just copy paste and we just don't have that.

At least make us kill more stuff, explore more nooks and crannies, have mini bosses in the open world while doing MSQ, rewarding exploration.

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Originally Posted by BoltNixter

At least make us kill more stuff, explore more nooks and crannies, have mini bosses in the open world while doing MSQ, rewarding exploration.

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Even the enemies the quests have us fight spawn in and are basically like "guess I'll die now", often leaving me wondering how they weren't handled to begin with. If they were such a nuisance, I shouldn't be able to simply sneeze in their general direction and watch them fall over.

Mao seeings trend here. DT kinda lookings like reskinned copy-paste of past expansions. Mao gettings really bad feeling that well of creativity has run dry at SE.

Story? What story?

First of all it's Wuk Lamat, we turn the corner it's Wuk Lamat, we go to our room to rest? Wuk Lamat. We are trying to talk to someone? Wuk Lamat. We open the fridge? Wuk Lamat. Why am I bringing this, considering this is about story format rather than Dawntrail story problems? Well, format is not the problem if we are engaged in the story, if the story is compelling it can follow a script. Is it predictable as in "we are about to get to the new dungeon!" yes it is, but if we are captured by the story, it's not really an issue. But if there is nothing to captivate the audience, if all we see is Wuk Lamat who seems to be "new better WoL" taking on main character role for no apparent reason aside from being detached from reality furball (and having important father). I was bored not because of the format per se, it was just so much more exposed with a story which is worst (excluding visuals and all the fun things) than 2.0

Enough of fetch quests in msq. Even "Kill 10 boars" type of quests are better than fetch quests.

Prob never, since its a FF game and most people are content with how it is. That being said, I wouldn't be against some changes, but I'm also fine with how it is, as this is what I expect anyways.

My main gripe is the constant loss of controlling my character. It's been really frustrating how when I talk to someone to turn in a quest I have to wait for all these emotes to go by and then they scatter like roaches before I can move at all.
I'm not sure if it's just me I haven't read all the posts but the constant amount of cutscenes is also a nuisance. From literally getting in one cutscene to go to another area to talk to someone and to enter another cutscene. I literally spent over an hour of just skipping cutscenes in the intro quests before I even step foot out of the city. If they want to do cutscenes they really need to do a better job at it. I would rather they cut out all the cutscenes and then have one at the end that they put extra effort in to get the story going.
Having to get into a cutscene with no voice acting just feels really lazy and I'm not going to be reading all that. I just want to get quests to kill mobs and do dungeons/trials.

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Originally Posted by Valkret

First off, I am not referring to the story. I am talking about the gameplay. We are now on the 5th expansion and the MSQ formula remains the same; talk to a couple of npcs, do some fetch quest, talk to more npcs, kill one or two mobs every couple of hours, rinse and repeat. It's feels extremely outdated. I think in the span of an expansions MSQ (excluding trails and dungeons) we probably don't get to kill more than 30 mobs.

We were able to overlook this in the past two expansions because the story being told was so good. In my opinion no matter how hard SE tried, they were never going to be able to to capture the magic in storytelling that we've had for the past several years with one single expansion. Just because these type of stories take time to build and it takes time to create an in depth world and complex characters. And I am ok with that, I went into dawntrail fully expecting the story to be average. But I did not expect to be so bored playing through it.

Part of me is actually happy that a lot of people are not liking the story, so we can finally realize that outside of the story, how boring and monotonous the MSQ content actually is. The other part of me is a little upset that SE actually thinks that 6+ hours of boring fetch quest is acceptable content.

When it comes to the MSQ, SE has been riding on the back of their brilliant writers and amazing storytelling. I am hoping that this less well received start to a new story serves as a wake up call for them to finally modernize the gameplay aspects of the MSQ.

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the new story is great, and its the start of a new adventure
If you dont like the new story, all I have to say is, you have missed what Yoshi has been saying this whole time...
Dawntrail is the BEGINNING of a NEW STORY

The BS that it's a new or casual story has to stop. Stories are either well written or they aren't. Dawntrail has extremely poor pacing and very dull moments mixed in with some very good moments. It's not the worst story but it's not the best story. That's just how it is. It doesn't really live up to the best expansions of XIV.

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

the new story is great, and its the start of a new adventure
If you dont like the new story, all I have to say is, you have missed what Yoshi has been saying this whole time...
Dawntrail is the BEGINNING of a NEW STORY

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i want to push buttons and be tested on my participation while experiencing a new story.

I mean, this is the Final Fantasy brand published by Square Enix. What makes you think they listen to fans?

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

the new story is great, and its the start of a new adventure
If you dont like the new story, all I have to say is, you have missed what Yoshi has been saying this whole time...
Dawntrail is the BEGINNING of a NEW STORY

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Great cope! I love seeing this from nearly every single person who tries defending this game without actually saying anything positive. I dare you, say something good about the story. You won't, because you can't. You have a dozen posts lambasting critics without actually saying why they're wrong. Should fans really be expected to spend $40 for the chance to spend another $40 in three years to play the real expansion? And I thought that WoW's expansion plan was insane!

As OP said, this isn't about the story but the gameplay of the MSQ. But you conflate the two because there is no gameplay for the most part. The only thing that's here is the story. Shadowbringers and Endwalker worked as visual novels because the story was good. But without a good story, you need gameplay. That's why ARR was a success: despite being derided as having the "worst plot", it had far more gameplay content than any other expansion including 16 dungeons, 7 trials and 5 raids on release day. You cannot sell a visual novel without a decent plot or an MMO without gameplay, and yet that's what Dawntrail is on launch. Square Enix failed, and yet again, it has to pick up the pieces after the fact. I fully expect plenty of groveling from Yoshida unless he's learned from his Square Enix mentors, in which case he'll say nothing as the company continues to flounder.

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

the new story is great, and its the start of a new adventure
If you dont like the new story, all I have to say is, you have missed what Yoshi has been saying this whole time...
Dawntrail is the BEGINNING of a NEW STORY

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My very first sentence was "First off, I am not referring to the story." You clearly did not read past the title and your brain decided to shut off the moment you perceived something as negative about the game.

I dunno if I can even force myself through this MSQ, I don't mind the fact the story is possibly filler (not too far into it to judge atm), but the gameplay has become so mindnumbingly boring. I don't think I've died while exploring since Heavensward 9 years ago. There's no sense of threat, no sense of progression, no wonder or sense of exploration, no anticipation.Everything is instant gratification. Adding ontop of the continious dumbing down of the battle system and jobs, I genuinely think this is my last expansion.

Is FFXIV the least engaging comparatively to other big MMOs in terms of MSQs?

How do other big MMOs (WoW, GW2, ESO) handle their MSQs? Are they more engaging? Can anyone shed light?

Least engaging here means --> loss of control of character, passively watching cutscene, no battle, etc.

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

Is FFXIV the least engaging comparatively to other big MMOs in terms of MSQs?

How do other big MMOs (WoW, GW2, ESO) handle their MSQs? Are they more engaging? Can anyone shed light?

Least engaging here means --> loss of control of character, passively watching cutscene, no battle, etc.

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I can only speak for GW2, but it basically hasn't had cutscenes for a long time. You're always in control of your character while the story happens, and as a result it's all voiced.

This has positives and negatives. It's a lot less cinematic, obviously, but that's somewhat mitigated with gorgeous framing (see: Aurene's final scene in EoD). But at this point, if I had to choose between a 30 hour cutscene and a story told in a less cinematic manner, I'll go for the latter. None of that is to say that GW2 is a bastion of storytelling or any thing.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

Great cope! I love seeing this from nearly every single person who tries defending this game without actually saying anything positive. I dare you, say something good about the story. You won't, because you can't

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You're so based.

So much defenses are drones repeating the last thing they heard from Yoshi P.

What is intrinsically good about having a low stakes story lol? A low stakes story can either be good or bad.

It's just so obvious the only thing they're capable of is regurgitating what Yoshi P told them. I daresay 90% of their enjoyment isn't even coming from the game but coming from CBU3 telling them that this is gonna be great. Like a father telling his toddler "hey it's so fun picking up these scraps on the floor! Yay!" And his little son picks up garbage enjoying himself the whole time.

In the back of my mind a voice is saying "Ok, Lighter story is fine depending on the player of course. But lightening up the gameplay as well is going to drive people nuts" Gameplay is obiviously not the only thing driving people nuts. But to each their own as they say..

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

Is FFXIV the least engaging comparatively to other big MMOs in terms of MSQs?

How do other big MMOs (WoW, GW2, ESO) handle their MSQs? Are they more engaging? Can anyone shed light?

Least engaging here means --> loss of control of character, passively watching cutscene, no battle, etc.

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I can't speak for ESO, but I've played the other two extensively.

Purely form a gameplay perspective I would rank then as such: GW2>WOW>>>>>FFXIV
From a lore and story perspective I would rank them as such: FFXIV>>>>>WOW>GW2

GW2 delivers its story with very little loss of character control. There are some cutscenes here and there, but for the most part each story chapter is heavily focused on gameplay. Lots of exploration, jumping puzzles, battling other enemies and some bosses which are actually quite fun and challenging. And after you are done with a story chapter it usually opens a new area/map which is dynamic, meaning there are events that change the layout of the map and eventually culminate in large map events. Not to mention the zones are full of secrets and fun challenges such as races, jumping puzzles, etc.

Wow is a little more traditional, you go from one zone to the other completing quests, and the story is drip fed to you through these same quests, and standard cutscenes here and there. Other than these cutscenes you basically never lose control of your character. The zones over the years have become more engaging with world quests, treasures and rare mobs to find, but they are not nearly as interactive as GW2.

And FFXIV well you know how it goes. Where FFXIV wins by a country mile, like is not even close, is on story delivery and dungeon/trail/raid encounter design (not mechanics, but design stuff like music and ambience of the encounter.) The world development and character lore in FFXIV is so far ahead of the other two is not even a fair comparison.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

Great cope! I love seeing this from nearly every single person who tries defending this game without actually saying anything positive. I dare you, say something good about the story. You won't, because you can't. You have a dozen posts lambasting critics without actually saying why they're wrong. Should fans really be expected to spend $40 for the chance to spend another $40 in three years to play the real expansion?

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I agree. The whole 'it is the beginning of a new story' argument is done to a tedium by now. It is like if I were to go to dine and people tell me not to complain about the appetizer because I shouldn't expect it to be as impressive as a main course -- except, I am not complaining that the appetizer is not a main course, I am complaining that the charcuterie smells off and the sauce was served curdled. There are basic standards of quality for all things, whether that is in cooking or in game design, and if something fails at those basic standards then you can't defend the product against claims it is bad just by saying it isn't supposed to be the highlight yet. Being only the first part to greater things to come is irrelevant, an appetizer that fails basic standards that we could reasonably expect from an appetizer is a bad appetizer and can be called that.