Dawntrail's MSQ story is a disaster and waste of potential. [full spoilers]

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Originally Posted by Batthosai

For Zarool Ja i felt there is a lot of unexplained stuff , Like when the Vilagarmanda broke loose, He actually assisted the fight sort of showing that he is not just a cold fighting machine, if they wanted him to be the main antagonist it could have been better written like he could have been the 1 to strike a bargain with Bakool Jaja to free the Vilagarmanda and when he claims to be Dawnservant he will give promises. *Noticed the respond he given to the random citizen which beg for better lands*

Bakool Jaja has potential with a better redemption arc at a later stage.

Wuk Lamat is too overwhelming dont need to explain much.

The whole 7 feat contest felt a bit out of placed and could have been better paced

When facing Vilagarmanda, honestly i felt nothing.

The dungeon which have the 4 teams racing to the top could maybe have a time limit with some mechanics to catch up from being slowed down by the other participants.

The scions are like celebrities you invite just to show their faces on a red carpet event.

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There was definitely no stakes with Vilagarmanda. This monster did nothing after being released and felt like a non-issue, it didn't even kill the guard over the prison.

I've found more confusing how bad Vilagarmanda's prison was. One of the most dangerous entities of the zone and you can free it with only two fireballs? And later, it had a random mob feeling. You just kill it in a raid and no more Vilagarmanda. -.-





Cheers

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

Second: the principle how the Golden City works. They steal souls from the living and use them to recreate a materialized version of the Eternals. Buuuut, it is WAY too complicated and risky to achieve it and clearly violates the principle of parsimony. Because since the memories of the Eternals are saved in a computer, they could easily create a completely virtual world in the computer itself. And the funny thing is, it happens in the last dungeon of the expansion. We upload our memories/soul into the computer to overcome the protection systems of this computer system to shut it down. So the creation of a fully virtualized world for the Eternal's memories is possible and the soul theft makes no sense.

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This is a good insight.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

I've found more confusing how bad Vilagarmanda's prison was. One of the most dangerous entities of the zone and you can free it with only two fireballs? And later, it had a random mob feeling. You just kill it in a raid and no more Vilagarmanda. -.-





Cheers

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And this too.

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Originally Posted by localareanetwork

I honestly really liked the 4th zone. Just you and Erenville (no Wuk thank god..) there in a down to earth wild west themed area getting up to no good. It was a much needed break from the first half of the expansion, but I could be biased.

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To be honest I think the fourth zone would be far better suited as a first zone. With how robust the servers are now there's also really no point in splitting the MSQ anymore.

In a vacuum I would've liked the fourth zone but after the tedium that is the first three zones by the time I got to the fourth zone I was just bored out of my mind.

To be honest we should've been introduced to Erenville's family at Lv90, so that Cahucia's eventual death feels more resonant for us. This should've been Krile and Erenville's expansion. IMO the main arc should be us trying to investigate what Galuf did at the Golden City, piecing together clues from the places we visit, while the battle for the throne was in the background that we interact with once in a while. This way we get exposed to Wuk Lamat, Koana, and Zoraal Ja in equal measure, and more importantly flesh out Koana and Zoraal Ja more. Putting it in the background would honestly make Wuk Lamat much more bearable. I honestly would've rather focused on Krile and Erenville.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

I've found more confusing how bad Vilagarmanda's prison was. One of the most dangerous entities of the zone and you can free it with only two fireballs? And later, it had a random mob feeling. You just kill it in a raid and no more Vilagarmanda. -.-





Cheers

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Glad I was the only person who thought that, after the amount they hyped it up it kinda ammounted to nothing

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

I've found more confusing how bad Vilagarmanda's prison was. One of the most dangerous entities of the zone and you can free it with only two fireballs? And later, it had a random mob feeling. You just kill it in a raid and no more Vilagarmanda. -.-





Cheers

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How about the Golden City had literally had noone watching it and Galool Ja turned it into a game to pick a successor?

The best line I've heard so far in this MSQ is "But we don't sell Sabotender here". That's how low the bar is so far holy shit.

JP forums are also apparently not very happy about the story.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...81%9F%E3%80%82

(28 likes)


[Golden Legacy] I fell asleep halfway through the story.

Just my opinion.

It might be just me, but there was almost no battle until the first instanced dungeon, and I just watched cut scenes. Then I got sleepy and fell asleep. (lol)

Coach Anzai! I want to play the game.

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There are positive threads too: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...82%B7%E3%83%BC

But it's like 3 or 4 likes lol...

Just to add my own frustration regarding the last zone in particular. I have never at any point in the story all the way back to ARR disagreed more with the actions the game makes my character take. You arrive in the Golden City, and within five minutes you're approached by Cahciua, requesting that you erase all of the Endless because she thinks their existence is "wrong".

Internally, my response was "Who the hell are you to decide that for everyone here?", and if you tell her no (or to be more specific "There has to be another way!"), the game hand-waves your objection away with one or two lines of dialogue and then puts you back at the "What will you say?" screen with the "no" option removed. At that point I just skipped the rest of the cutscene, because I'm not going to give the writer the satisfaction of saying "I will do as you ask" like I'm OK with this plan in the slightest. That felt patronising as hell.

The game spends 90% of the story pushing a point of understanding and acceptance and preservation of other cultures, and then when the time comes to test that principle regarding a culture that is outside the relatively "normal" ones you've met earlier, railroads you into siding with the argument that you should wipe out all of these people because they're "not natural".



Side note: I'm aware that these people will most likely die after we stop Sphene anyway, and I do agree that she should be stopped. That doesn't mean I'm willing to execute them all here and now without even trying to find an alternative solution (and considering Cahciua's opinion of the Endless I doubt she tried very hard when she says there isn't one). Isn't killing one people to save another exactly what Sphene wants to do?

I'm disappointed with how the last zone looks after the MSQ is done... I get the reasoning behind it with the story and all, but it's so desolate looking and depressing. I really don't enjoy going into that zone.

Great summary of everything wrong with the MSQ in this x-pac.

To me, it feels like the new writer(s) were given a huge toolbox with lots of characters and lore already established but they decided to just put them aside in a very arrogant way and went like : "Look, this is my character (Wuk), you're gonna love her because she's the main now, and she's better than everyone else that came before her. As for the story ? Creating something new ? No thanks, I'm gonna show you a speed run of 2.0 -> 6.0, and do it better than it was done the first time."

Except they failed miserably.

Well here's some MSQ spoilers:

Are we really meant to actually believe that Bakool Ja Ja's arrogance, spoken superiority complex, and the like from the start is because he "wants the mass breedings of 2 heads to end"?! All of that, especially after being disowned and being dripfed these ideas and ideals by the elector. What an absolutely missed opportunity to have a moment for Alphinaud/Alisaie and the WOL draw parallels between Bakool Ja Ja and Vauthry by being drip fed this idea of superiority from others, rather than Bakool Ja Ja having ideas and dreams of what he actually wants. Oh sure we know what he wants with the story given to us, but it doesn't add up and match up at all. There could've been an arc for Bakool Ja Ja to learn ON SCREEN with learning to think for himself. Let the party and Bakool Ja Ja see the mass breeding eggs going on in an area where Bakool Ja Ja was originally "forbidden from going" or something that he blindly went along with since he wasn't thinking for himself.

But no. Instead we're supposed to believe that his superiority complex and active glee and delight in his underhanded tricks were for some morally righteous reasons after a few waterworks and now everythings all hunky dory?

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Originally Posted by Singularity

The game spends 90% of the story pushing a point of understanding and acceptance and preservation of other cultures, and then when the time comes to test that principle regarding a culture that is outside the relatively "normal" ones you've met earlier, railroads you into siding with the argument that you should wipe out all of these people because they're "not natural".

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100% agreed. It was such a whiplash to see Wuk Lamat and the Scions preaching cultural acceptance but once we reach Sol 9 they're all suddenly hesitant to.

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Originally Posted by Manamaru

Well here's some MSQ spoilers:

Are we really meant to actually believe that Bakool Ja Ja's arrogance, spoken superiority complex, and the like from the start is because he "wants the mass breedings of 2 heads to end"?! All of that, especially after being disowned and being dripfed these ideas and ideals by the elector. What an absolutely missed opportunity to have a moment for Alphinaud/Alisaie and the WOL draw parallels between Bakool Ja Ja and Vauthry by being drip fed this idea of superiority from others, rather than Bakool Ja Ja having ideas and dreams of what he actually wants. Oh sure we know what he wants with the story given to us, but it doesn't add up and match up at all. There could've been an arc for Bakool Ja Ja to learn ON SCREEN with learning to think for himself. Let the party and Bakool Ja Ja see the mass breeding eggs going on in an area where Bakool Ja Ja was originally "forbidden from going" or something that he blindly went along with since he wasn't thinking for himself.

But no. Instead we're supposed to believe that his superiority complex and active glee and delight in his underhanded tricks were for some morally righteous reasons after a few waterworks and now everythings all hunky dory?

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I got a different impression from Bakool Ja Ja. It seems that he acted arrogant and abrasive because of his father's conditioning and being seen as the hope of the Mamool Ja. He was raised to feel that he was superior. But at the same time he also at some point learned about the sacrifices that culminated in him. Because of that he feels that he has the responsibility to really be the superior specimen so that his dead infant siblings did not die for no reason.

I don't think he started out wanting the eugenics to end because he probably saw it as inevitable, as part of the natural order. I agree though that the switch from him being superior and arrogant to pleading with us to end the eugenics program is so sudden and frankly almost nonsensical. The writers wanted to write a bully character with a traumatic backstory but don't seem to know how to build up to that switch.

I also agree that it's weird that everything's suddenly A-OK with him after the cutscenes, as if he didn't just unleash a catastrophic threat just two levels ago.

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Originally Posted by Singularity

Just to add my own frustration regarding the last zone in particular. I have never at any point in the story all the way back to ARR disagreed more with the actions the game makes my character take. You arrive in the Golden City, and within five minutes you're approached by Cahciua, requesting that you erase all of the Endless because she thinks their existence is "wrong".

Internally, my response was "Who the hell are you to decide that for everyone here?", and if you tell her no (or to be more specific "There has to be another way!"), the game hand-waves your objection away with one or two lines of dialogue and then puts you back at the "What will you say?" screen with the "no" option removed. At that point I just skipped the rest of the cutscene, because I'm not going to give the writer the satisfaction of saying "I will do as you ask" like I'm OK with this plan in the slightest. That felt patronising as hell.

The game spends 90% of the story pushing a point of understanding and acceptance and preservation of other cultures, and then when the time comes to test that principle regarding a culture that is outside the relatively "normal" ones you've met earlier, railroads you into siding with the argument that you should wipe out all of these people because they're "not natural".



Side note: I'm aware that these people will most likely die after we stop Sphene anyway, and I do agree that she should be stopped. That doesn't mean I'm willing to execute them all here and now without even trying to find an alternative solution (and considering Cahciua's opinion of the Endless I doubt she tried very hard when she says there isn't one). Isn't killing one people to save another exactly what Sphene wants to do?

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This actually bothered me about the story more than everything else combined. Like, our merry group of war criminals readily dismisses the Endless as lifeless facsimiles and constructs recreated from dead peoples memories... but literally everything we experience while talking with them seems to contradict this? They are self aware, capable of feeling, decision making, planning and forming memories, and as far as I could tell nothing was brought up to imply that they aren't mentally the same as any living person. Did I miss something?

The writing was set up to force us into an "us or them" situation, which is... hamfisted, but fine. But the happy-happy heroic celebration afterwards did not at all mirror my mood when the credits were rolling. Like what the hell? We may have just committed genocide, at least feel bad about it for more than a few minutes?

I'm seriously not sure if I missed something important, because as is there is a very easy parallel to be drawn between our heroes and one of our previous major villains.

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Originally Posted by Singularity

Just to add my own frustration regarding the last zone in particular. I have never at any point in the story all the way back to ARR disagreed more with the actions the game makes my character take. You arrive in the Golden City, and within five minutes you're approached by Cahciua, requesting that you erase all of the Endless because she thinks their existence is "wrong".

Internally, my response was "Who the hell are you to decide that for everyone here?", and if you tell her no (or to be more specific "There has to be another way!"), the game hand-waves your objection away with one or two lines of dialogue and then puts you back at the "What will you say?" screen with the "no" option removed. At that point I just skipped the rest of the cutscene, because I'm not going to give the writer the satisfaction of saying "I will do as you ask" like I'm OK with this plan in the slightest. That felt patronising as hell.

The game spends 90% of the story pushing a point of understanding and acceptance and preservation of other cultures, and then when the time comes to test that principle regarding a culture that is outside the relatively "normal" ones you've met earlier, railroads you into siding with the argument that you should wipe out all of these people because they're "not natural".



Side note: I'm aware that these people will most likely die after we stop Sphene anyway, and I do agree that she should be stopped. That doesn't mean I'm willing to execute them all here and now without even trying to find an alternative solution (and considering Cahciua's opinion of the Endless I doubt she tried very hard when she says there isn't one). Isn't killing one people to save another exactly what Sphene wants to do?

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Absolutely.

This is around when myself and my partner starting hitting skip on everything. It felt gross and evil. We just nod and go along with a genocide without questioning it.
It felt pretty hateful. After all that preaching of acceptance and learning, they sure as hell didn't extend a fraction that same grace to the Alexandrians. Sure, we ask them questions and talk with them knowing full well we plan on erasing them, their friends, and their family from existence.

Not saying that it could have worked out at all, but our characters didn't even attempt to search for a solution.

Also the last zone is awful. It was so wonderful and magical and stripped away to nothing as a constant reminder that our WoL followed a stupid cat to kill a bunch of sentient, happy beings.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

I got a different impression from Bakool Ja Ja. It seems that he acted arrogant and abrasive because of his father's conditioning and being seen as the hope of the Mamool Ja. He was raised to feel that he was superior. But at the same time he also at some point learned about the sacrifices that culminated in him. Because of that he feels that he has the responsibility to really be the superior specimen so that his dead infant siblings did not die for no reason.

I don't think he started out wanting the eugenics to end because he probably saw it as inevitable, as part of the natural order. I agree though that the switch from him being superior and arrogant to pleading with us to end the eugenics program is so sudden and frankly almost nonsensical. The writers wanted to write a bully character with a traumatic backstory but don't seem to know how to build up to that switch.

I also agree that it's weird that everything's suddenly A-OK with him after the cutscenes, as if he didn't just unleash a catastrophic threat just two levels ago.

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Yeah, I was actually quite fine with his backstory and to an extent I feel it even justifies his sudden change of heart and accepting our help. As hilarious as it is I find his character one of the better written ones so far after finishing third zone. I do however completely agree not having a single word mentioned so far of his unleashing a continent level threat to upend the contest and being wholly unpunished for it is sad.

I personally absolutly love the story so far I love Wuk Lamat she is dumb and cute and dungeons and the trials and the music my favourite expension since Shadowbringer

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

This actually bothered me about the story more than everything else combined. Like, our merry group of war criminals readily dismisses the Endless as lifeless facsimiles and constructs recreated from dead peoples memories... but literally everything we experience while talking with them seems to contradict this? They are self aware, capable of feeling, decision making, planning and forming memories, and as far as I could tell nothing was brought up to imply that they aren't mentally the same as any living person. Did I miss something?

The writing was set up to force us into an "us or them" situation, which is... hamfisted, but fine. But the happy-happy heroic celebration afterwards did not at all mirror my mood when the credits were rolling. Like what the hell? We may have just committed genocide, at least feel bad about it for more than a few minutes?

I'm seriously not sure if I missed something important, because as is there is a very easy parallel to be drawn between our heroes and one of our previous major villains.

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Agreed! I'm not against the idea that the Endless HAVE to die for the good of the star and all its reflections, but why is it not played up to be as tragic and messed up as it truly is? These are obviously sentient beings able to experience emotions and create memories, not just some crazy computer simulations. Why is it that when we kill them everyone just frowns and moves on to the next and then the ending has the gall to play that loud-ass harpy Disney music as if we didn't just erase thousands, potentially hundreds of thousands, of living beings in order to save the world? Nah, couldn't have "sacrificing for the greater good" as a theme in our expansion about mentoring a country's ruler. That is way too scary and complex for this writing team.

Also, screw Cahciua. She was annoying, her robot form took away any tension at a part of the MSQ that needed it, lied to her son (that she ditched when he was a child) that she was alive, and her plan sucks and she never acknowledges that it sucks. Another character who was obviously written to be overly likeable but just comes across as disingenuous and emotionally manipulative.

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Originally Posted by SirShady

Also, screw Cahciua. She was annoying, her robot form took away any tension at a part of the MSQ that needed it, lied to her son (that she ditched when he was a child) that she was alive, and her plan sucks and she never acknowledges that it sucks. Another character who was obviously written to be overly likeable but just comes across as disingenuous and emotionally manipulative.

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Yes but her name is a play on Captcha and she's a robot hahahahahahaha aren't you amused by how witty and silly it is, hahahahahaha

I feel like the second half of Dawntrail single handedly carries the entire expansion by itself. Like, really, as someone who is very into Buddhism and the idea of samsara/reincarnation/life cycle, I kinda dig and am very into the latter part of the expansion. That being said, the first half of the expansion is kinda bland and mid, as the op said, a waste potential.

On Wuk Lamat, I find her to be quite, idk, too innocent and loud, like very little character growth and so on. She has her moments here and there, but overall, she's just not there yet.

tldr: The latter part goes hard, but the first half is kinda hit and miss

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Originally Posted by SirShady

...These are obviously sentient beings able to experience emotions and create memories, not just some crazy computer simulations.

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To be fair, they still could be. They might just be extremely elaborate ChatGPT666 chat bots, running on the memory input of dead people. What we see could all be an outwards illusion. It would be stupid (more so than we already know the Endless project to be), but possible. The main issue is that we see absolutely no evidence of this, and I'm not sure why the heroes think it to be such a clear cut situation.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

To be fair, they still could be. They might just be extremely elaborate ChatGPT666 chat bots, running on the memory input of dead people. What we see could all be an outwards illusion. It would be stupid (more so than we already know the Endless project to be), but possible. The main issue is that we see absolutely no evidence of this, and I'm not sure why the heroes think it to be such a clear cut situation.

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That seems to be a main hiccup for 7.0 . A lot of telling and exposition, but not showing.

Also, why is the guy that's supposed to be infamous for his tacos and whatever else not actually a [b\Food Vendor]/b]?

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Originally Posted by NiceNox

tldr: The latter part goes hard, but the first half is kinda hit and miss

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The latter part is just Shadowbringers again, Endwalker again, and the 13th again.

It kind of worked in those cases because in ShB it was new, Endwalker was a direct sequel so it makes sense that they'd be playing with those themes again, and the 13th was part of EW so I thought their goal was to mirror it.

But pulling this again? It feels like they have no ideas at all left in the tank.

I spent 30 hours to try my best to appreciate it, and now at lvl96 I’ve decided to give up and skip text/cutscenes. Genuinely, the side quests have been so much more entertaining and fun than the MSQ. 30 hours just to accept that it’s been horrible from the start and I’ve thoroughly not enjoyed it

The best part of the story so far has been when we finally go on our own adventure without wuk Lamat, to the Wild West style place with Erenville. I tried so hard to like Wuk Lamat, tried so hard to like this expansion’s MSQ, but it just isn’t enjoyable.

If this was a book or a comic I was reading, I would have dropped it after the first few chapters. I need to re-do Shadowbringers MSQ as a genuine palette cleanser and to renew any faith I have in this game.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

To be honest I think the fourth zone would be far better suited as a first zone. With how robust the servers are now there's also really no point in splitting the MSQ anymore.

In a vacuum I would've liked the fourth zone but after the tedium that is the first three zones by the time I got to the fourth zone I was just bored out of my mind.

To be honest we should've been introduced to Erenville's family at Lv90, so that Cahucia's eventual death feels more resonant for us. This should've been Krile and Erenville's expansion. IMO the main arc should be us trying to investigate what Galuf did at the Golden City, piecing together clues from the places we visit, while the battle for the throne was in the background that we interact with once in a while. This way we get exposed to Wuk Lamat, Koana, and Zoraal Ja in equal measure, and more importantly flesh out Koana and Zoraal Ja more. Putting it in the background would honestly make Wuk Lamat much more bearable. I honestly would've rather focused on Krile and Erenville.

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This would have been a much more enjoyable adventure. Instead we got... whatever this is. One of the great mysteries was the location of the Golden Cities (yes plural, it has been retconned to just one), yet instead of piecing clues to it's location together, we just get it handed to us on a golden plate, ruining all the mystery around it.

And don't get me started on the 2nd part. They tried to do a 2nd Endwalker, without the buildup and failed miserably. So many plotholes... Like when Sphene closed the portal and the barrier disappears showing us blue skies, only for it to still be there in the zone.

They tried to copy themes from their successful expansions, but instead made something worse than StB.

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Originally Posted by Embran

Were people this critical of Stormblood when it launched?

I'd like honest answers without the rose-tinted glasses or the benefit of hindsight regarding the MSQ patches or appreciating the threads that Stormblood introduced and were later tugged on.

Anyway, I'd agree that it's the weakest. I don't think it's bad. I'd give it a 7/10. But I'm easy to please and always prefer to focus on the things I enjoy rather than the things I don't like.

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I actually liked Stormblood a lot. Can't remember if people were critical at the time or not. My problems with Dawntrail mostly boil down to the pacing. Everything is excruciatingly drawn out. Every cutscene is 2-5 minutes too long. It's a story that doesn't have that much to say, and instead of telling a compact story, they're stalling for time.

I don't think the first part would be as bad if we at least could choose between Wuk Lamat or Koana to support, given that both of them end up being Dawnservants, there would be no narrative loss. And the WoL ends up positively engaged with both of them anyway. It would be, of course, more development work to provide the narrative branch, but it would help. Plus, a reason to repeat it in New Game + or another character. However, that alone wouldn't suffice, they defnitely would need to address the pacing because a boring quest with Koana wouldn't be so different than boring quests with Wuk Lamat.

But ultimately, what hurts DT for me is not the premise of the first part, not even Wuk Lamat as a character. The plot's idea is good, but the execution of that writing is not, to the point I agree with the OP's perception that the only culture that is actually interesting is the last one with the children sacrifice conundrum.

I was super disappointed that the 'cultural quests' weren't special and just fetch stuff or talk to people. The cooking could be a minigame, where you control the contestant (just to make sure there's no CUL advantage from the WoL). The closest thing we have from a novelty is the Pelupelu quests with a special pop up with the trade, and I can hardly think that's remotely sufficient.

Said in another post, but the bulk of those quests resume to "Let's split our party and talk to the locals to learn about mundane aspects of their culture that totally could be explained in a few lines of dialogue."

Another thing that bothered me is the 'reason' for why the Twins wanted to embark on the journey. To help Garlemald? Why then they didn't bring someone from there like Jullus? Plus what ever the twins learned there that they didn't know already from similar cultures they found in HW, SB and ShB? Honestly I don't think their presence contributed with anything narration wise. Krile already could fill in the 'scholarly' niche anyway.

I'm worried that the writers feel the need to make every last zone, dungeon and boss be super emotional endeavors. I really don't think they need to be one upping Shadowbringers and Endwalker like that, or following the same formula. While I did shed some tears in the last section, it felt 100% hamfisted and not like any of these story beats were there organically, but rather they were really thinking of ways to how to make the player emotional in this last segment of the MSQ.

Honestly, it's not needed. The last zone, dungeon and trial should sound and look great, and the battle content should be top notch, and that is enough. The added melodrama that is so obviously forced because '' the last expansions did that as well and we expect players to be disappointed if we don't do the same again '' is not needed, and will eventually narrow down the kind of stories they can tell.

I cant believe I killed so many souls to safe the Source. Nice gg, thanks for letting me do another genocide!

Joke aside, the expansion suffers from 3 regions in 1 - Tural, Solution Nine (North Tural) and Alexandria. It lacked so much development and storytelling to actually learn the more important areas. Instead we spend 70% with beast tribes instead of Alexandrias issues.

Remember when we had a full expansion for 1 shard? Yeah, Shadowbringers made you journey through so many locations. The last map got so unbearable due to the constant unnecessary meetups. Holy hell, I was delivery boy for getting Krile ice cream?

It's super sad that we had no proper development with Sphene. It would of been so much better to get to know her and get attached to her. Such a wasted chance.
It feels like we're speedrunning the story, so the game can finally get into maintanence mode.

Remember back when Alphinaud tried to unite Eorza with the Grand Company of Eorzea, with his visions of moral justice, the nations working together for a Lasting Peace, bound by the power of friendship, even though he really knew nothing about the lands of Eorzea and was just the grandson of a high profile savior of the land?

He learned a hard lesson about naivete and the complexities of ruling.

If only he had gone to Tural instead of Eorzea, where that would have been Super Effective™. No Merlwyb or Raubahn to put him in his place when demanding they do the Right Thing. No Ilberd to erupt from underlying tensions. No political complexity at all. He wouldn't even have had to go around commanding his Warrior of Light lackey to kill primals, either. All he'd have needed was some voiceless muscle to stand around making the "Wow, everyone is an idiot, but it's kinda funny" face, who would occasionally offer some forced words of encouragement and take care of the Obvious Villains. Alphinaud could even take credit for that while being seasick and getting spit on by some alpacas.

All would've been well.

One thing is for sure. Even those who still insist saying Emet-Selch was an un-nuanced terrible character despite all his sympathetic traits simply because he would consider genocide as a means to enforce his ideals over ours, now have nowhere left to go -- because we just performed a genocide on another reality because we deemed their continued existence incompatible with our ideals of how existence should work. The game can sugarcoat it all it wants by throwing a few people patting us on the back and saying it's okay, I feel that was entirely NOT okay and we did not even try anything else first. Like, did we need to even completely erase them? They supposedly only used up aether while manifesting physically anyway, it really looked to me like they could have happily lived in virtual reality forever without bothering anyone. Especially after seeing the last dungeon. Our motivation was literally, "If our enemy is doing this to preserve the lives of her people, then if we kill all her people first, she won't have a reason to go through with it anymore." And then the writers forgot that was the point of that exercise and everything went ahead anyway so it wasn't even just unnecessary, it was full on meaningless.

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Originally Posted by Eyrilona

One thing is for sure. Even those who still insist saying Emet-Selch was an un-nuanced terrible character despite all his sympathetic traits simply because he would consider genocide as a means to enforce his ideals over ours, now have nowhere left to go -- because we just performed a genocide on another reality because we deemed their continued existence incompatible with our ideals of how existence should work. The game can sugarcoat it all it wants by throwing a few people patting us on the back and saying it's okay, I feel that was entirely NOT okay and we did not even try anything else first. Like, did we need to even completely erase them? They supposedly only used up aether while manifesting physically anyway, it really looked to me like they could have happily lived in virtual reality forever without bothering anyone. Especially after seeing the last dungeon. Our motivation was literally, "If our enemy is doing this to preserve the lives of her people, then if we kill all her people first, she won't have a reason to go through with it anymore." And then the writers forgot that was the point of that exercise and everything went ahead anyway so it wasn't even just unnecessary, it was full on meaningless.

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I mean to be honest we didn't have much choice, their end goal is functionally burn up the souls of the living to keep the paradise of the dead going.

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Originally Posted by Malthir

I mean to be honest we didn't have much choice, their end goal is functionally burn up the souls of the living to keep the paradise of the dead going.

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There wasn't even a shred of hesitation from anyone to say "well... maybe there is another way". We came in the company of Eorzea's smartest people and you're telling me that they couldn't even get together for a second to muse over it? The gang says "Sounds good. Let's kill them." It's like you're travelling with copies of Wuk Lamat who don't have a shred of thought.

Even if it ended the same way, it could have been written to seem less cruel and more tragic.

Also.. people have mentioned the boy we left paralyzed in Solution 9 without saying anything, even though his condition was aetheric unbalance which the scions knew how to cure.

That gets worse.

In the final zone, there is even a side quest where you have to recover three medical text books about their attempts to cure aetheric unbalance, and it rubs in hard that they are talking about the same condition that we know. And then at the end of the quest, the medical professional asks our character what our take on the books was, and our only options are... 1. to remark that a lot of electrope is used, or 2. recite their own book's conclusions at them that the condition is incurable.

Like.. no option to tell them a cure was found for that in our world?

Why do you even have a side quest to explicitly bring attention to one of the story's plotholes?!

So hermanos....

I tapped out this morning in Texas after Naruto became the Hokage of Tural. I think I'm just going to pull what that 1 user in here did back in Stormblood and just log out in middle of a zone and leave.

The part that really did it for me was so there was a supposed hidden and secret backup set of the Infinity Starbursts and the very key itself. Why was it just randomly stolen? Shouldn't it be under constant guard given we were told how dangerous the Bass Pro Shop could be? They busted both of those items out in the span of 2 cinematics? The Roe that got killed off just felt like such a plot convenience event.

If it's that easy why couldn't we just do it and become the Hokage of Tural?

I agree with nearly everything. I don't feel exactly 100% with Zoraal Ja, but I can see where you're coming from. I thought his personage early on in the story was closer to Leto II, who wanted to walk the Golden Path. Do what needed to be done, as vile and atrocious as it is. Plunge the star into a constant state of war until conflict was intrinsically repulsive to the people.

That said. I also felt like Wuk Lamat had very little character development and it made zero sense why she was a worthy candidate for Dawnservant. She seemingly always had the answer and the right perspective from the get-go. Learning about cultures was always the answer to EVERY SINGLE TEST. She was never wrong. She never fucked up or caused pain or conflict because of her naivety. She was grossly reluctant to admit she had fears or faults for quite a long time, and when she finally did, she still reverted to hiding her true feelings and pretending she wasn't afraid of flying or walking alone in Solution Nine. This isn't a leader putting on a façade for her subjects to inspire them or so they don't lose hope. This is a person hiding and putting up walls with her comrades, people who crossed an ocean and left their homes to help her. She never learned.

Even Koana realized that his focus on the future was too single minded and he learned to appreciate that seemingly mundane traditions have value to a people and their culture. Koana had actual personal growth. Koana stepped down from being a candidate for Dawnservant so he could help with Wuk Lamat's trial. Koana's personal sacrifice for his aspirations to Dawnservant so he could help his sister was character growth. He sacrificed something deeply personal for the greater good. These are great qualities for a true leader. Wuk Lamat had none of this growth.

I will 100% mirror the OP's confusion, and my own revulsion. That when this story is about understanding cultures, as soon as the main characters encounter a culture with whom they disagree on core values they express their revulsion and immediately suggest to try and change a system that has been in place for hundreds of years. A core function of another culture, without understanding or educating themselves on the implications of said change, or whether the people of a foreign culture even want the change. Not to mention that this isn't even their place. Imaging visiting another country and within a day telling someone they should change a core feature of their civilization because it's different from your own.

Right now I'm in the final zone and as a player and WoL I have no agency in my response, which is legit really bothering me during the cutscene I'm paused in. If you're going to give a player choices, then let them be actual choices. I don't think it's morally correct to erase the Endless. I think it's hypocritical that Wuk Lamat and Co. are angry and have repulsion that another civilization would attack another for what is essentially a war for resources/survival, but then barely have any reluctance and quickly agree to massacre the opposing side's populace. It's apparently ok to commit genocide as long as Wuk Lamat can understand their culture and then "reject someone's beliefs". There's clearly a core difference in values and concepts of what constitutes "alive", but instead of exploring this and how we resolve differences or compromise, we're essentially at war with Alexandria in the same way Sphene is at War with Tural. This is fine in a sense. It's a fight for survival, but then just call a spade a spade. Stop this disgusting moralizing justification for mass slaughter of another people.

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Originally Posted by Eyrilona

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Thank you for this, I feel the exact same way. I'm pretty sure there have been other people who have pointed out the flaws of the whole Soul stealing to perpetuate false existences but to think that we wouldn't have considered other options and went straight to 'this is an abomination' and 'they aren't actually people' is far too close to genocide and the mindset of Emet-Selch then I'm comfortable with. Granted, I was sick to my stomach from the MSQ before that point and was largely skipping all dialogue and cutscenes but even still, it did not sit well with me.

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Originally Posted by CosmoBabylonia

So hermanos....

I tapped out this morning in Texas after Naruto became the Hokage of Tural. I think I'm just going to pull what that 1 user in here did back in Stormblood and just log out in middle of a zone and leave.

The part that really did it for me was so there was a supposed hidden and secret backup set of the Infinity Starbursts and the very key itself. Why was it just randomly stolen? Shouldn't it be under constant guard given we were told how dangerous the Bass Pro Shop could be? They busted both of those items out in the span of 2 cinematics? The Roe that got killed off just felt like such a plot convenience event.

If it's that easy why couldn't we just do it and become the Hokage of Tural?

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I got to the same point this morning and was just slapped with more questions than answers. Why did Madara Ja Ja know to kill the First Hokage's friend for the infinity keystones when they explicitly say it was a stroke of luck he had them? Why did they kill him in the first place? If they wanted to pull a reason out of their ass, that's fine, but the fact it was shown and those very glaring questions weren't answered just made me yell "why?" at my computer and leave the zone to just do some roulette grinding.

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Originally Posted by arstoka

but to think that we wouldn't have considered other options and went straight to 'this is an abomination' and 'they aren't actually people' is far too close to genocide and the mindset of Emet-Selch then I'm comfortable with. Granted, I was sick to my stomach from the MSQ before that point and was largely skipping all dialogue and cutscenes but even still, it did not sit well with me.

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exactly; this could've been a powerful story beat, the moment our YEARS of experience [LIVING THE CONSEQUENCES OF] & [LITERALLY FIGHTING AGAINST PEOPLE WITH] THIS EXACT SAME ENDS-JUSTIFY-THE-MEANS MENTALITY actually proved relevant and we finally stepped forward & were given some agency in how this on-rails narrative ACTUALLY RESOLVED. But of course not. of COURSE not.

It's like the cumulative themes and tone of this entire saga until this point (up to and including EW patch content, even) are reduced to irrelevant set dressing in someone's FFXIV fanfic.

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Originally Posted by bitterhorn

It's like the cumulative themes and tone of this entire saga until this point (up to and including EW patch content, even) are reduced to irrelevant set dressing in someone's FFXIV fanfic.

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You're saying the Wuk can't hear, feel, and think her way to becoming the hokage?