SAM casting

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Originally Posted by ShadowyZero

OooOO did i touch a nerve?:D you seem awfully upset that i described a real samurai to you with facts that they are anything but slow and not cringe weeb material.
and it seems you glossed over my other response to what samurai mains really want it to be like i wonder why?:rolleyes:

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if you getting shown to be a fool is considered stirring my nerve, then ReeEEEEEEEeeeEEeeeee indeed.

you described a samurai from the point of view of someone that watched sword art online.

a real samurai didn't even use a sword unless forced too, they used a bow, and they were considered dishonored if they were so bad a shot that their enemy got close enough for them to have to draw the sword... not to mention the katana is a flimsy easily broken weapon that cost too much to wield carelessly...

as far as your other responses, you are not that important dude, I'm not following you around the forum to hear your less than intriguing takes..

the stormblood trailer 100% shows what this games intention for samurai is.

I really could care less about the Op's argument, my issue with Samurai is the damage on the cast doesn't quite feel impactful enough on any mode, PVP/PVE so an increase would be nice, if not that I would like to see them remove the GCD of Kaeshi Namikiri to allow us to make a follow-up attack instead of waiting on the GCD. Samurai were also considered the knights of the east which while they never worse heavy armor like a night, I would like to eventually see a true deflection mechanic given to them. right now we have damage redirection and a small damage reduction, but nothing that makes them immune to damage for a brief period of time. I would honestly like to see this for SAM as i believe both of these points play true to the class.

1) Increase the damage of Ogi Namikiri since its a long cast (and yes 1.3 cast time is a long time in pvp and pve) or take Kaeshi Namikiri off the GCD so we can use our other abilities right away.

2) Give SAM a deflection mechanic that allows them to deflect damage for 2 seconds

Both of these open up a higher skill cap allowing people the freedom to outplay their opponents better or stay in the fight longer.

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Originally Posted by ShadowyZero

thats the headcanon most go with i am sure but its 100% not that in japan they practice sword techniques and swings some of which is visibly shown in the way samurai executes certain skills or abilities but also they believe in their study of the blade that its an extension of the self and how you treat it and hone it will decided how great of swordsman you become and so on and so fourth but thats in "practice" and performed on "Stage" if you were to go watch actual kendo or japanese sword competitions you'd see that literally none of their practice techniques are held in place for any longer than a split second or less cause whats he gunna do? let his oponent smack the ever living daily light out of him while he's trying to act all cool like on tv??? absolutely not lmao that would be extremely embarrassing to watch and would shame his school and his mentor both
And the same can be said for when they had times of war in ancient japan civilization you really think a samurai who also mind you was covered in armor from head to toe which weighed tons is gunna let himself get wailed on an possibly behead or worse? just to active some kind of imaginary special ki finisher? lmao get outta here

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Kendo is about hitting, not cutting Kenjutsu and Iaido are more in-line with Samurai where they do practice methodical attacks aimed for precision. A Samurai Fight is meant to end in 1-2 strikes. Hence why i believe the damage needs to be increased on SAM's casted abilities. Casting is fine, just make it worth it more than what it is in both PvP/PvE.

A deflection for SAM is useful, but not during the cast time. needs to be its own button. Would be dumb for counter play.

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Originally Posted by Jaydarksol

Snip.

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For potency you'd have to remove other abilities or lessen their potencies otherwise SAM would start completely out performing all DPS.
I think honestly if they made damage numbers more satisfying and maybe a special crit sound or something this could be fixed without touching potency.
As for everything else I don't really know enough about SAM, a deflection mechanic seems cool but would only be useful in solo play considering a tanks job is to get hit in group content.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

For potency you'd have to remove other abilities or lessen their potencies otherwise SAM would start completely out performing all DPS.
I think honestly if they made damage numbers more satisfying and maybe a special crit sound or something this could be fixed without touching potency.
As for everything else I don't really know enough about SAM, a deflection mechanic seems cool but would only be useful in solo play considering a tanks job is to get hit in group content.

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Would also do well to allow a healer time to res a tank while the SAM takes a hit or two, as for the damage potencies making it always crit would be very nice as well i would settle for that. as for pvp allowing it to always hit 12k potency at least for the casted portion of Ogi Namikiri, id settle for that too.

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Originally Posted by Jaydarksol

Would also do well to allow a healer time to res a tank while the SAM takes a hit or two, as for the damage potencies making it always crit would be very nice as well i would settle for that. as for pvp allowing it to always hit 12k potency at least for the casted portion of Ogi Namikiri, id settle for that too.

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the only problem I can see with that is the whole Crit issue, Double Down 1.2k potency has an incredibly noticable dip in damage if it doesn't crit. For Ogi I would remove the second half of it make the time cast maybe slightly longer and combine the potencies if I were to balance it. upwards of 12k potency doesn't work in PvE rn because the damage numbers are literal while PvE potency is percentage based.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

There's nothing lamer than a nerd who thinks they can look cool by putting down other nerds over some most arbitrary distinction only they can see. "Uhm yeah but actually at least I'm not into some weeb shit" *goes back to playing a raging fantasy berserker with comically sized axes* "Oh yeah this is the cool stuff"

You'd be 1000% cooler if you just owned the fact you like stupid fantasy bullshit. Every job is stupid fantasy bullshit, and it's great.

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yea totally so i'm supposed to just sit down and take the abuse right? from those telling me to abandon my favorite job in ffxiv cause i don't agree with or dislike a factor about it right??? nah they brought the guns but i brought the heat back at them in case you didn't know this is a public forums an people are allowed to express their grievances with job design and gameplay i mean heck! the developers straight up ask for feedback nearly all the time even live!
so why don't you just say you disagree with my take and move on with your life go bother another thread if you dislike this one so much :)

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Originally Posted by Mostly_Raxus

a real samurai didn't even use a sword unless forced too, they used a bow, and they were considered dishonored if they were so bad a shot that their enemy got close enough for them to have to draw the sword... not to mention the katana is a flimsy easily broken weapon that cost too much to wield carelessly...

the stormblood trailer 100% shows what this games intention for samurai is.

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okay bet then,

absolutely wrong on your part you should do your research more thoroughly my guy, wiki and google are not the only sources of intel in case you didn't know
Samurai wielded not just a sword(katana or wakizashi)which by the way wasn't as flimsy as you like to claim because they refined their swordsmithing literally so that the blade would cut thru bones an armor a technique called "folding" they also sometimes wielded spears, bows(as you pointed out) short swords or blades, axes, and were at times taught basic hand to hand combat.

and your claim is that from a trailer ??? really lmao i can't take your argument seriously you wanna know what they told us samurai really is how they envisioned? from the mouth of Naoki Yoshida, producer and director of FFXIV Online when asked by an interviewer what they based the concept of samurai off of he told them he envisioned it to be like that of the "Ronin" which are lordless/houseless(noble) samurai who used unconventional means of fighting while maintaining the discipline of bushido(way of the blade) they were mercenaries most of the time and didn't care for honor nor technique so this bull shit of them being refined or polished is just a lame excuse to look cool and thats it period nothing more. and is completely inaccurate to what they claim they envision when its fact that Ronin were anything but disciplined or refined they were cut throats and killers who could give a rats behind about any of that they needed to kill to survive if not then to look intimidating enough so to scare trespassers or rule breakers.

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Originally Posted by Jaydarksol

Kendo is about hitting, not cutting Kenjutsu and Iaido are more in-line with Samurai where they do practice methodical attacks aimed for precision. A Samurai Fight is meant to end in 1-2 strikes. Hence why i believe the damage needs to be increased on SAM's casted abilities. Casting is fine, just make it worth it more than what it is in both PvP/PvE.

A deflection for SAM is useful, but not during the cast time. needs to be its own button. Would be dumb for counter play.

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ah you're right how could i forget about iaido had a brain spasm in the heated moment lol ditto to kenjutsu,
but whole heartedly agree with you there if they wont get rid of this annoying an not accurate to the samurai's identity casting times then at the very least compensation needs to be offered either in the form of a parry/deflect buff to iajutsu casts or just increase their potency powers to justify the excuse for making us samurai enjoyers have to hold completely still with the potential of being in danger from heavy hitting attacks(some bosses being instant casts for example)and possibly being knocked out in the process of trying to get the cast off an angering the healer(s) of the group.

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Originally Posted by ShadowyZero

from those telling me to abandon my favorite job in ffxiv cause i don't agree with or dislike a factor about it right???

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You literally don't like the core feature or aesthetic of the job. What else are they supposed to say? You say it's your "favorite" but it really, really doesn't sound like it is. Have you even tried other melee jobs, which are exactly what you are asking for? Or do you just expect SE to rework SAM into something entirely different than what it has always been, just because you can't be bothered to level another job? What's going on here?

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

You literally don't like the core feature or aesthetic of the job. What else are they supposed to say? You say it's your "favorite" but it really, really doesn't sound like it is. Have you even tried other melee jobs, which are exactly what you are asking for? Or do you just expect SE to rework SAM into something entirely different than what it has always been, just because you can't be bothered to level another job? What's going on here?

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okay i am going to need you to back up that statement you just said "Casting" is in no ways a core feature of samurai the job is not called "swordmage" it is called SAMURAI SAM-OO-REYE and like another poster you seem to have missed something i said previously i LIKE having a melee that has a single blade holstered to their waist and i grew up with plenty of jrpgs, anime, and watched some samurai flicks Auron in Final Fantasy X is also one of my most favorite final fantasy characters of all time and he is a literal samurai (even though his world calls him a warrior monk lol) i used to also main ninja back in the ARR and HW era if thats not enough for you to think i have a preference leaning more towards eastern then i honestly dont know what else to tell ya lol

and i have tried all the other melee jobs that currently exist but they don't vibe with me i don't like the positionals on monk but martial arts is cool and can be fun to watch, and i don't like spears or heavy armors so dragoon is not appealing to me, and i tried to like reaper but its just not my slice of bread or cup of tea its cool and all with its dark fantasy and forbidden power aesthetic it has going for it but for ME PERSONALLY i prefer and enjoy being a swordsman who claps back hard and fast with parrying/deflecting, and hard counters.

and since we are asking questions tell me why are you so against this? it wouldn't be anymore braindead then playing as a summoner or healer right now so explain to me your reasoning on how shortening, compensating, or removing the casts outright would possibly ruin samurai? they removed kaiten and yet there are still so many people playing samurai to this day i see them in duty finder and party finder all the time wether i'm playing on one myself or not.

Wait doesn't Samurai and Monk have the exact same amount of positionals?

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

Wait doesn't Samurai and Monk have the exact same amount of positionals?

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Yep. They removed positionals from 4 of Monk's 6 rotational weaponskills. Now only Snap Punch and Demolisher have them, and since you only hit Demolisher once every 3rd/4th? combo you barely even need to move to land any of them.

If anything, SAM does a lot more moving around to land positionals, especially during burst phases.

I wonder if it's possible to make iaijutsu behave like stardiver in reverse. If you don't know, stardiver has a strong animation lock that absolutely prevents it from being weaved with any other oGCD. If they applied a strong animation lock to the sheathed part of iaijutsu and then made it free up the moment you release it and kept the gcd timing upon release, they could preserve the feel of the ability while also removing the cast bar.

I don't care either way, I like how the cast bar feels with the build up to the release of the iaijutsu. I don't think there is a skill expression to it and I don't think it is the only way to achieve the feeling the cast bar provides.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Yep. They removed positionals from 4 of Monk's 6 rotational weaponskills. Now only Snap Punch and Demolisher have them, and since you only hit Demolisher once every 3rd/4th? combo you barely even need to move to land any of them.

If anything, SAM does a lot more moving around to land positionals, especially during burst phases.

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Yeah I thought so

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

Wait doesn't Samurai and Monk have the exact same amount of positionals?

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samurai does have some positionals but they are so trivial to how it plays that you can easily forget they even exist lol and they add so little when you factor most samurai weapons skills are guaranteed crits and they get a damage buff from on of their combos as well just from smacking the boss in any position they are facing or standing.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

I wonder if it's possible to make iaijutsu behave like stardiver in reverse. If you don't know, stardiver has a strong animation lock that absolutely prevents it from being weaved with any other oGCD. If they applied a strong animation lock to the sheathed part of iaijutsu and then made it free up the moment you release it and kept the gcd timing upon release, they could preserve the feel of the ability while also removing the cast bar.

I don't think there is a skill expression to it and I don't think it is the only way to achieve the feeling the cast bar provides.

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thank you! for having a polite take toward the discussion compared to these other jerks telling us to quit what we love over a petty disagreement between views. and this is exactly what i was saying in my original post is that there are way better ways of expressing a stylized sword swing or slash then just standing stone faced like a statue waiting for a fly or some other creature to move towards us etc.
the whole point of a Ronin like Samurai is to get their job done quickly and with efficiency the code of "honor" was something done by the traditional lord/house serving samurai and this is even addressed in the samurai job questline our hero/heroine learns from our mentor Musosai that sometimes its more important to forge your own path or own way not to be tied down by traditions and this i believe is also further explained in the lore of how samurai powers up itself because we essentially hone our techniques and make them our own.

I will just put my two cents here

Removing SAM's cast is removing DNC's dancing or BRD music and so on... it's what makes the feel so strong. It's the taste of the job.

I am against this, even if it changes to a "locked animation" it won't have the same impact, plus its its a fast cast you can even slidecast

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Originally Posted by Nekuroi

I will just put my two cents here

Removing SAM's cast is removing DNC's dancing or BRD music and so on... it's what makes the feel so strong. It's the taste of the job.

I am against this, even if it changes to a "locked animation" it won't have the same impact, plus its its a fast cast you can even slidecast

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i will re-iterate that the whole point of samurai is not to be mystifying (yes i've already addressed other comments stating this is "final fantasy" but where in the rules does it say a samurai has to be a caster? ) not even in anime styled media where they are most present do they go that hard on stand offs they just go straight into it hacking at eachother with blocking, parrying, and quick strikes/swings.
or even using some fancy sword play which results in either a stalemate or instant kill

and to your other point they've made some bosses even quicker than our "short" casts some bosses are instant casters which smacks us samurai who are mid cast or about to finish said cast hence why i feel there is a need to either further shorten casting times, to compensate our solid stance with either potency increases or giving to us a parrying or deflection boost/buff to iaijutsu an if they can't reasonable do that because of these stupid other complaints of " it will out perform my favorite melee nerf samurai!" or "muh balance!" SAM LITERALLY has no group utility so shove it! they are meant to be powerful to compensate for the lack of group support or synergy with other jobs. then maybe they need to consider just removing casts and inventing a more unique effect of showing off the skill of a samurai's technique and style.

ya'll out here complaining about casts but lets not forget BARD and MACHINIST also had casts once upon time where's the outrage for their removal gone!?
SAMURAI IS NOT A CASTER PERIOD IT WAS NOT DESIGNED TO BE A MAGE GET OVER IT YOU WERE GIVEN YOUR SWORD-MAGE HYBRID CALLED REDMAGE GO PLAY IT!

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Originally Posted by ShadowyZero

ya'll out here complaining about casts but lets not forget BARD and MACHINIST also had casts once upon time where's the outrage for their removal gone!? or are ya'll just stuck up hypocrites? which is it? or maybe ya'll are just jaded black mage and summoner mains lmao i am really starting to wonder XD seriously.
SAMURAI IS NOT A CASTER PERIOD IT WAS NOT DESIGNED TO BE A MAGE GET OVER IT YOU WERE GIVEN YOUR SWORD-MAGE HYBRID CALLED REDMAGE GO PLAY IT!

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Samurai has had cast bars since it was added to the game. It has always had them.

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Originally Posted by Emitans

Samurai has had cast bars since it was added to the game. It has always had them.

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so did machinist and so did summoner but wowie did they ever change their stance on it because of player feedback :) no machinist has 0 casting bars and summoner has had their casts significantly reduced.
do you want to add anything else? or should i just continue to add reasons as to why melee dps shouldn't have to cast if they are specifically not designed to be magical in nature?

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Originally Posted by ShadowyZero

why melee dps shouldn't have to cast if they are specifically not designed to be magical in nature?

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Samurai is magical in nature actually, you literally manifest ice when you Midare.

It's not a realistic swordsman, it's a "doing a draw slash to cut steel in half" kind of samurai. You can argue mechanics all you wish just don't try to argue the job is something it's not.

Quite honestly after losing Kaiten removing the casts on Samurai would be the final nail in the coffin.

Removing the casts pretty much removes the last thing that makes using the big hits satisfying. It would just solidify being on the eternal bench after leveling it.

It really, really sucks to see the job in this state as someone who held the firm opinion that on EW launch samurai felt the best it ever has and makes me sad I didn't play it more at the time.

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Originally Posted by ShadowyZero

ya'll out here complaining about casts but lets not forget BARD and MACHINIST also had casts once upon time where's the outrage for their removal gone!?![/B]

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I'm gonna bite:

HW BRD got a Cast because of MCH, but it didn't have before so people complained accordingly. Even tho it makes sense to me to have some cast time (since you gotta pull the string back) but still.

MCH was fine cuz the reload system since it was build upon that so it wasn't bad
but I wouldn't mind MCH getting some cast back (like drill to potency it up), or even the PvP action that you can cast but walk veeery slowly, I wouldn't mind one bit.

Plus, it's not "caster" it's "magical ranged", they can have cast time for flavor, which is the case for SAM.


It's the "relax and think on nothing" and bam, swords. And you can even slidecast at half of it to move.

They should give BRD, and MCH back their cast times, but like use the walking cast mechanic from their current PVP versions.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

They should give BRD, and MCH back their cast times, but like use the walking cast mechanic from their current PVP versions.

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It'd give the role some badly needed flavor, plus the slow aim and walk feels great in PVP.

It kills me they have in fact acknowledged their PVP design is more interesting, but that they don't want to bring anything interesting into PVE because well, it might create *gasp* niches. The horror.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

It'd give the role some badly needed flavor, plus the slow aim and walk feels great in PVP.

It kills me they have in fact acknowledged their PVP design is more interesting, but that they don't want to bring anything interesting into PVE because well, it might create *gasp* niches. The horror.

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Really-? That's so lame. if done right it would only deepen current playstyle niches -- which are already kinda present, and not power scaling niches. Like SAM already has its nice with having to cast Iaijutsus, NIN has its niche with Mudras, DNC has its niche with its dances, and GNB has its niche with continuation. Job mechanic niches already exist.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

People aren't hating. They are disagreeing with you.

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Bump.

It's kind of sad watching someone with a victim complex start lashing out like a spoiled child at perceived personal slights, making their insecurity a self-fulfilling prophecy when that behavior inevitably starts to actually turn everyone against them.

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Originally Posted by ShadowyZero

ya'll out here complaining about casts but lets not forget BARD and MACHINIST also had casts once upon time where's the outrage for their removal gone!? or are ya'll just stuck up hypocrites? which is it? or maybe ya'll are just jaded black mage and summoner mains lmao i am really starting to wonder XD seriously.
SAMURAI IS NOT A CASTER PERIOD IT WAS NOT DESIGNED TO BE A MAGE GET OVER IT YOU WERE GIVEN YOUR SWORD-MAGE HYBRID CALLED REDMAGE GO PLAY IT!

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I would love the return of Foe Requiem for Bards. sadly we have just accepted it since the dev's don't undo things.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Bump.

It's kind of sad watching someone with a victim complex start lashing out like a spoiled child at perceived personal slights, making their insecurity a self-fulfilling prophecy when that behavior inevitably starts to actually turn everyone against them.

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LMAO bruh i was only asking for changes or removal of cast bars on a MELEE damage per second job XD i literally don't care if you or anyone likes me or not it was commentators in this thread who picked a fight by telling me to stop caring about my favorite job or abandon it LOL
and your being over generalizing this place this spot in the forum is no where near "everyone" neither you nor i represent an imaginary collective whole thats hive mind sheit hahaha what am i your favorite poster to make fun of now or something? there are other people here too that put fourth alternatives but you seem largely focused on just me XD please go do something else i am not that important to warrant your constant attention.

I don't have an issue with it, what have an issue with is the dmg and cooldown line ups

I actually like a melee not being like the others and having cast times on their main mechanic. It's not even long and fits the animation style since the Stormblood cinematic trailer.

I hope Iaijutsu retains cast times. I find it to be a fun mechanic.

i just want to say a HUGE thank you to the replies that have remained civil and respectful we may not agree on the topic at hand but i at least respect your manners and courtesy

I think if you go back and look at most poorly received job changes, you can usually trace them back to one person forcing their pet idea on the forums without regard for the current design for the job. Looking back, there was at least one thread advocating for Kaiten's removal in the past. Perhaps history would be different if people spoke out against that suggestion back then.

If you are passionate about your job, then you do need to step in and make it clear upfront that you don't want the devs to do this. There's no point complaining after the fact.

I personally think removing the draw time on Iaijutsu is a terrible idea for SAM, because it's part of the job's personality. You can rename 'cast' to 'draw', if you like, but it's very much central to the job.

This is such a bad take I can't even put to words my disappointment in the mere suggestion of removing the cast. It's literally a part of SAM's identity.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think if you go back and look at most poorly received job changes, you can usually trace them back to one person forcing their pet idea on the forums without regard for the current design for the job. Looking back, there was at least one thread advocating for Kaiten's removal in the past. Perhaps history would be different if people spoke out against that suggestion back then.

If you are passionate about your job, then you do need to step in and make it clear upfront that you don't want the devs to do this. There's no point complaining after the fact.

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lol i'm not your enemy or some boogie man on the forums you know xD you can disagree with me i've said just don't sit here and tell me to quit or play something else truly i really think you forum kids these days take things way too personally or too seriously i love the heck out of this job and since i started the game all those many years back ago i was disappointed it wasn't in ARR or even 1.0 i had such fond memories of it in previous final fantasy titles and even just in jrpg's in general.
i was super ecstatic when it was announced for stormblood and switched to it immediately as my main job but that doesn't mean i thought it was perfect or couldn't use some adjustments or enhancements here and there its just that way with any and all jobs we play and like is that not so?

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Originally Posted by ninjasoldier014

This is such a bad take I can't even put to words my disappointment in the mere suggestion of removing the cast. It's literally a part of SAM's identity.

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its still not a caster or mage, don't know how many times i need to repeat that xD you can say it has magical affinity and i will accept that as fact but casting spells is never going to be a samurai thing any magic they do is all completely relegated to their weapon an they don't cast with their sword lol they swing it in multiple directions an the "magic" releases from either the edge or the tip of their blade.
honestly if you ask me since Samurai shares a gear set and dps identifier with monk that being (striking) it should have a similar mechanic to it with how they store their chakra's then release them upon executing weapon skills or job actions to me that would make much more sense to a samurai to be storing magic incantations within their blade and it immediately releases upon drawing the blade from its sheath without the need of casting just a simple and clean draw no stare-downs like some wacky wild west movie when the two gunman stare at eachother awkwardly waiting to see who draws first lmao

A class doesn't need to be a caster to have cast times.

Comparing Samurai to the likes of BLM, RDM and upcoming PCT is laughable at best. You're only casting your big hit, tsubame gaeshi is even instant.

The cast times being on your Iaijutsu is a huge part of what makes Samurai gameplay feel like it has its own flavor and feel. You're charging up your one of the hardest hitting strikes in your arsenal and the wind up helps that impact land dramatically.

You *are* building up your resource to then use on weaponskills. Setsugekka, Goken, and Higanbana are all weaponskills. Where do you think they got the idea for the Nadi system on Monk?

The point was never "your casting magically powered abilities" the point is "You are focusing all of your gathered power to unleash immensely powerful attacks and it takes a small amount of time to do so"

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Originally Posted by Zairava

You're charging up your one of the hardest hitting strikes in your arsenal and the wind up helps that impact land dramatically.

You *are* building up your resource to then use on weaponskills. Setsugekka, Goken, and Higanbana are all weaponskills. Where do you think they got the idea for the Nadi system on Monk?

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why does it need a cast timer than to achieve that effect then? first i need you to answer that question if its not magical then why the need for a cast bar? they don't need us to stand still by that logic then it should be a stored action if we're winding it up to be released in one big go etc