My feedback on the method of obtaining relics in Endwalker

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Considering Bozja is still the most interacted with content that’s not on a roulette i think saying they were a failure is about as wrong as possible

Whether you think this is because of genuine enjoyment or simply “because of the relics” it shows that a zone with relics gets engagement rivalling roulette content, how is that anything but a resounding victory for bozja’s content design

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1. It's not populated enough and never will be.
2. Just because it has any population or interaction doesn't mean it was successful. Being forced to do something you hate doing to get something you normally get otherwise without having to do this content is not a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Mecia

You did not and do not need tanks and healers though, DPS can fill both roles and thats what makes Bozja so fun. All it took was one player to step up, ive tanked it as BLM plenty of times for example.

You can dislike exploratories all you want but youre either just lying or forgetting what you can do in them.

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You do if no one's using actions. A BLM cannot tank it if they aren't using actions and no one else is. Did you miss that point?

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Originally Posted by Mithron

1. It's not populated enough and never will be.
2. Just because it has any population or interaction doesn't mean it was successful. Being forced to do something you hate doing to get something you normally get otherwise without having to do this content is not a good thing.



You do if no one's using actions. A BLM cannot tank it if they aren't using actions and no one else is. Did you miss that point?

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You have literally just described the roulettes

What kinda content do you actually want then, because Bozja beats out any content not on a roulette

Should we delete all content not on a roulette

To me the Eureka weapons were the best. Seeing other people with a prestigious glowing weapon made me want to do Eureka too. I loved progressing through the four Eureka Zones to get my relic weapon, and that is how I would prefer to get future relic weapons.

I didn't like how Bozja was only two zones (also other issues like the aesthetics not being good for spending dozens to hundreds of hours grinding in), and how at certain points you couldn't continue progressing your relic weapon by playing Bozja. At a certain point, you are forced to leave Bozja and do the crappy experience of farming FATEs in Gyr Abania or Othard by yourself, or queue up for the Mhach or Ivalice raids I was already sick and tired of when I levelled alt jobs.

Endwalker having welfare relic weapons that require you to just watch a zany questline that has long outstayed its welcome and then pay up to tomestones to immediately get your weapon and everyone else has the same glowing weapons doesn't feel satisfying.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You have literally just described the roulettes

What kinda content do you actually want then, because Bozja beats out any content not on a roulette

Should we delete all content not on a roulette

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I enjoy roulettes outside MSQ roulette which is obviously optional. I don't enjoy Eureka or Bozja. I enjoy being able to complete relics without ever touching Eureka or Bozja. So instead of deleting content, make relics not attached to Eureka or Bozja. It's not hard.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I enjoy roulettes outside MSQ roulette which is obviously optional. I don't enjoy Eureka or Bozja. I enjoy being able to complete relics without ever touching Eureka or Bozja. So instead of deleting content, make relics not attached to Eureka or Bozja. It's not hard.

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The answer is to make Eureka Bozja content and then add in an alternative after for people who dont like it, it's that simple.

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

The answer is to make Eureka Bozja content and then add in an alternative after for people who dont like it, it's that simple.

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But dae if your do that, nobody will play the new Eureka Bozja!!!!!11 /s

Discarding that bad faith argument, that would be a good solution, but even Bozja still required you too grindfest through to progress the relic because story ties. If relic was truly completely unrelated to the expedition zone, but you could just also get pieces for it by doing the zone, it'd be perfect.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I enjoy roulettes outside MSQ roulette which is obviously optional. I don't enjoy Eureka or Bozja. I enjoy being able to complete relics without ever touching Eureka or Bozja. So instead of deleting content, make relics not attached to Eureka or Bozja. It's not hard.

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You are missing the point, Bozja has higher engagement than any content not in the roulette and exceeds some content in the roulette, how is square meant to see that any other way than making field content and attaching a relic to it is a way to generate content that gets that sort of engagement

You are currently talking out of both sides of your mouth “field content is dead so nothing important should be tied to it” but also “remove important things tied to field content”

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

But dae if your do that, nobody will play the new Eureka Bozja!!!!!11 /s

Discarding that bad faith argument, that would be a good solution, but even Bozja still required you too grindfest through to progress the relic because story ties. If relic was truly completely unrelated to the expedition zone, but you could just also get pieces for it by doing the zone, it'd be perfect.

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Yeah my whole idea is that you have the Field Content zone more involved with the relic, and you can earn it through progression, in a much less, tedious way. And then after that step is done, you have an alternative put in either at the end of the expansion or at the end of each patch. People win on both sides and no one can really feel left out. The alternative also doesn;t collide with with the concurrent step so the Field Content Zones stay active.

If they were going to do it half half the step that is done outside of the zone should be one step behind but that would still impact the contents evergreen potential

So they release step 2 inside the field content zone and then step 1 gets the outside the field content option

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If they were going to do it half half the step that is done outside of the zone should be one step behind but that would still impact the contents evergreen potential

So they release step 2 inside the field content zone and then step 1 gets the outside the field content option

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It's why you can just back end the alternative to the end of the expansion for players who can't be assed to grind in dedicated content and keep the in zone ever green thus making sure players can do it in new expansions either way and players during the expansion can't say they were forced to do something they dont like.

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

It's why you can just back end the alternative to the end of the expansion for players who can't be assed to grind in dedicated content and keep the in zone ever green thus making sure players can do it in new expansions either way and players during the expansion can't say they were forced to do something they dont like.

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That would work too, just dump the poetics option in 7.58 for people who dont care about the field content zone

If they ever want to make alternative way to grind relic, they better make it more efficient by engaging the field content than trying to farm some rando sh!t outside like they did to 3 colored memories in their inception.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Considering Bozja is still the most interacted with content that’s not on a roulette i think saying they were a failure is about as wrong as possible

Whether you think this is because of genuine enjoyment or simply “because of the relics” it shows that a zone with relics gets engagement rivalling roulette content, how is that anything but a resounding victory for bozja’s content design

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How is being propped up by a highly desired reward that prior to SB was its own separate questline a resounding victory for Bozja's content design? If it can't stand on its own without the relic tied to it, then how is it any better than this expansion's Variant and Criterion?

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

How is being propped up by a highly desired reward that prior to SB was its own separate questline a resounding victory for Bozja's content design? If it can't stand on its own without the relic tied to it, then how is it any better than this expansion's Variant and Criterion?

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Because having the relic included is contributing to its success. The fact that it’s not like current variant shows that tying relics to it is the right design because it gives the content massive engagement

I’m not saying bozja’s actual design (as in content structure) is the success I’m saying its reward structure is the success

People on here are both saying “bozja is dead” then also asking them to rip one of bozja’s biggest rewards out of its reward structure and acting like that is a good plan

Bozja just needs better accessibility but making it more accessible would remove some of its uniqueness that makes it more desirable. This ties into making it easier to get and therefore people feel that, is stripping it of the hard work earned.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

Bozja just needs better accessibility but making it more accessible would remove some of its uniqueness that makes it more desirable. This ties into making it easier to get and therefore people feel that, is stripping it of the hard work earned.

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Accessibility or just straight up QoL?

Group organizing within Bozja-related content is just rough.

Doing DRN is fine, but the fact that you have to wait 10 minutes for a queue because you're obviously not going in with a full group of 24 is insane. That's 50 minutes worth of queue times for one relic by the way.

You can't use PF in Bozja either, so cluster farming is literally going inside Bozja, shouting a bit, then bringing your party back out to throw up a PF under DRN to see if you can find anyone else before going back in. Or maybe you don't bother with the second bit and just hope other people will join later.

Most of the field content is also kind of underused. People like myself enjoy CLL or Dalriada as raids, but we don't have to do anything to spawn those. We could try to speed up the spawn, but afking in base is valid, especially considering you can get use out of your current essence 2-3x per instance or more by doing so.

A lot of people just don't want to work to spawn CEs. Really it's almost better to go to Dynamis and solo spawn them since you're most likely going to be aiming to get the achievements for solo battle CEs if you're actually interested. Oh yeah, I didn't mention that did I? There's achievements tied to the solo boss battles, and people who have enormous amounts of clusters are always buying priority just so they can suicide immediately when they get picked to spite everyone else in the instance.

Making adjustments to all of these wouldn't change Bozja into something completely new, and it would make it a lot more enjoyable. I still appreciate and enjoy a lot of the content, but you're not going to convince me that it's some sort of standard when it was in need of a lot of improvements.

I take the opinion of people who didn't like the previous relic grinds and throw it into the trash bin.

Not every reward should be easily and quickly obtained by people who don't enjoy the type of content that reward was meant for. Relics were a cool little reward for people who enjoyed long time commitment type of MMO content.

Just like savage gear is made for people who enjoy practicing and clearing hardcore boss fights that require good group coordination.

Just like pvp rewards exist for people who like partaking on pvp.

Just like gold saucer rewards exist for people who like playing minigames.

For people who didn't like the grind or field operations because they complain about 'not having time' for that kind of thing, there already was a type of weapon for them. It's called tome gear. And the final tome gear of each expansion's cycle is more than enough to carry them about as far as a relic would in terms of item level.

I'm not whining that I can't get pvp glamour without doing pvp. Because I'm not entitled to every reward in the game despite not liking the content that locks it. Neither are any of you.

Feel free to disagree. But at the end of the day your whining about how relics used to be is just more irritating noise that makes this game a little worse each expansion.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

I take the opinion of people who didn't like the previous relic grinds and throw it into the trash bin.

Not every reward should be easily and quickly obtained by people who don't enjoy the type of content that reward was meant for. Relics were a cool little reward for people who enjoyed long time commitment type of MMO content.

Just like savage gear is made for people who enjoy practicing and clearing hardcore boss fights that require good group coordination.

Just like pvp rewards exist for people who like partaking on pvp.

Just like gold saucer rewards exist for people who like playing minigames.

For people who didn't like the grind or field operations because they complain about 'not having time' for that kind of thing, there already was a type of weapon for them. It's called tome gear. And the final tome gear of each expansion's cycle is more than enough to carry them about as far as a relic would in terms of item level.

I'm not whining that I can't get pvp glamour without doing pvp. Because I'm not entitled to every reward in the game despite not liking the content that locks it. Neither are any of you.

Feel free to disagree. But at the end of the day your whining about how relics used to be is just more irritating noise that makes this game a little worse each expansion.

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We sadly don't live ina time where people wanna actually involve themselves with content to earn things. And I honestly blame MMOs trying to cater to types who don't actually enjoy MMOs. As a whole MMOs right now are trying to appeal to groups who can care less for prestige and making memorable moments by playing the game itself. And this isn;t to say theres no room for social interaction as a focus, but, theres second life, imvu, VRchat, like if you wanna stand around and look pretty you have an entire genre of games for you where all you have to do is buy what you want and look pretty and have fun.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

A lot of people just don't want to work to spawn CEs. Really it's almost better to go to Dynamis and solo spawn them since you're most likely going to be aiming to get the achievements for solo battle CEs if you're actually interested. Oh yeah, I didn't mention that did I? There's achievements tied to the solo boss battles, and people who have enormous amounts of clusters are always buying priority just so they can suicide immediately when they get picked to spite everyone else in the instance.

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Why did you need to remind me?
The duels themselves were actually decent, but good luck actually getting to prog one. Their implementation is one of the most baffling design decisions I've ever seen.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Because having the relic included is contributing to its success. The fact that it’s not like current variant shows that tying relics to it is the right design because it gives the content massive engagement

I’m not saying bozja’s actual design (as in content structure) is the success I’m saying its reward structure is the success

People on here are both saying “bozja is dead” then also asking them to rip one of bozja’s biggest rewards out of its reward structure and acting like that is a good plan

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It's not a reward exclusive to Bozja, though. The relic was only tied to exploratory zones in later expansions. It was originally its own questline and reward for that questline. So in a sense that reward is kind of borrowed glory.

If what you're saying is that Bozja's content sucks so badly that it needs a relic, then should they really make more of it? Shouldn't they aim at making content that is going to be fun and engaging and that players want to do and keep going back into, instead of having players push themselves through it and then abandon it when they get what they want so players after them have a hard time?

I bet people would constantly be in Variant if they propped it up with a relic in the same way.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

It's not a reward exclusive to Bozja, though. The relic was only tied to exploratory zones in later expansions. It was originally its own questline and reward for that questline. So in a sense that reward is kind of borrowed glory.

If what you're saying is that Bozja's content sucks so badly that it needs a relic, then should they really make more of it? Shouldn't they aim at making content that is going to be fun and engaging and that players want to do and keep going back into, instead of having players push themselves through it and then abandon it when they get what they want so players after them have a hard time?

I bet people would constantly be in Variant if they propped it up with a relic in the same way.

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Again your personal enjoyment of the content is irrelevant to this discussion, whether you think Bozja is bad or Bozja is good or variant is bad or variant is good it doesn’t change the stats, Bozja had high retention, variant has garbage retention; Bozja is the second grindiest core combat content in the game and it has interaction that exceed some roulette content

By every measure Bozja was an overwhelming success, part of that can be contributed to the inclusion of the relic, if they can generate that level of interaction via what Bozja already has plus the relic then what’s their incentive not to, yes they could have tied the relic to variant, they probably should have, variant isn’t bad content it’s just this “people will play for the sake of it if the content is fun” doesn’t exist in this game, people will only play when given rewards, and that’s why criterion failed

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You are missing the point, Bozja has higher engagement than any content not in the roulette and exceeds some content in the roulette, how is square meant to see that any other way than making field content and attaching a relic to it is a way to generate content that gets that sort of engagement

You are currently talking out of both sides of your mouth “field content is dead so nothing important should be tied to it” but also “remove important things tied to field content”

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Both statements are not mutually exclusive. The main point is to make it so no one has to do exploratory zones to get their relic. It's not fun content for everyone, especially for many players who like to get their relics the "classic" way. If it's an option, fine, even if it's the optimal option to do exploratory content I'd be fine with it so long as it's within reason. What's not fine is standing AFK next to an Aetheryte waiting for other people to pop FATES so I only tab back in, shout lfg, clear the FATE, then go back to AFKing next to the Aetheryte until I'm done with my relic. It's even worse doing the content the way it's meant to be done. That isn't fun, that isn't good, and I shouldn't be forced to do that to get my relic when I already have expectations set on ARR and HW relic methods being far superior.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Both statements are not mutually exclusive. The main point is to make it so no one has to do exploratory zones to get their relic. It's not fun content for everyone, especially for many players who like to get their relics the "classic" way. If it's an option, fine, even if it's the optimal option to do exploratory content I'd be fine with it so long as it's within reason. What's not fine is standing AFK next to an Aetheryte waiting for other people to pop FATES so I only tab back in, shout lfg, clear the FATE, then go back to AFKing next to the Aetheryte until I'm done with my relic. It's even worse doing the content the way it's meant to be done. That isn't fun, that isn't good, and I shouldn't be forced to do that to get my relic when I already have expectations set on ARR and HW relic methods being far superior.

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Again you miss my point, this has nothing to do with enjoyment of the content on a personal level, not yours and not mine, you don’t like field content (though I find it hilarious you barely even engage with it then call it bad, pretty much the reason I instapull fates I prep in eureka) I do like field content, neither of our opinions matter

Square created grindy (by 14’s standards) content and made it overwhelmingly successful by tying a relic to it, then they made content in EW and didn’t tie a relic to it and it failed, why would square not tie a relic to their big content piece for the expansion (whether that’s field content or not in DT) when it can help drive that level of engagement (even if the entirety of the engagement of Bozja is not due to the relic it 100% contributed)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Again your personal enjoyment of the content is irrelevant to this discussion, whether you think Bozja is bad or Bozja is good or variant is bad or variant is good it doesn’t change the stats, Bozja had high retention, variant has garbage retention; Bozja is the second grindiest core combat content in the game and it has interaction that exceed some roulette content

By every measure Bozja was an overwhelming success, part of that can be contributed to the inclusion of the relic, if they can generate that level of interaction via what Bozja already has plus the relic then what’s their incentive not to, yes they could have tied the relic to variant, they probably should have, variant isn’t bad content it’s just this “people will play for the sake of it if the content is fun” doesn’t exist in this game, people will only play when given rewards, and that’s why criterion failed

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(bolded by me)
A scathing indictment on the playerbase and honestly the genre as a whole but it's not far off. This is why the genre is trash.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

(bolded by me)
A scathing indictment on the playerbase and honestly the genre as a whole but it's not far off. This is why the genre is trash.

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As much as people don't like the reality of it, you're not gonna work if you don;t get paid. You're not gonna waste time if it has no results, be it pleasure or relaxation, that's a reward for your time wasted. Genre isn't trash because it rewards time. It;s trash because a bunch of people who don;t wanna work for anything came into the genre when there's literally other genres that they can play that reward them for simply existing and turning on the game.

So many other MMOs have blended Social interaction with rewards and grinds and people remember them fondly, we're having this issue in XIV now because so many people hear casual and forget they have to play the game to get something. Nothing should be handed to you for free, nothing should be unearned. Nothing would matter if given away for free.

Many of us would rather create memories and make friends and push content to enjoy our subs the most and want to do explore and complete as much engaging content as possible. If the Genre is Trash because we want rewards for our efforts, then dang working for anything in life is must suck for a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Again you miss my point, this has nothing to do with enjoyment of the content on a personal level, not yours and not mine, you don’t like field content (though I find it hilarious you barely even engage with it then call it bad, pretty much the reason I instapull fates I prep in eureka) I do like field content, neither of our opinions matter

Square created grindy (by 14’s standards) content and made it overwhelmingly successful by tying a relic to it, then they made content in EW and didn’t tie a relic to it and it failed, why would square not tie a relic to their big content piece for the expansion (whether that’s field content or not in DT) when it can help drive that level of engagement (even if the entirety of the engagement of Bozja is not due to the relic it 100% contributed)

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If we just use engagement as metric than the current relic has been a massive success and we shouldnt hold the relic back with bozjas.

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

As much as people don't like the reality of it, you're not gonna work if you don;t get paid. You're not gonna waste time if it has no results, be it pleasure or relaxation, that's a reward for your time wasted. Genre isn't trash because it rewards time. It;s trash because a bunch of people who don;t wanna work for anything came into the genre when there's literally other genres that they can play that reward them for simply existing and turning on the game.

So many other MMOs have blended Social interaction with rewards and grinds and people remember them fondly, we're having this issue in XIV now because so many people hear casual and forget they have to play the game to get something. Nothing should be handed to you for free, nothing should be unearned. Nothing would matter if given away for free.

Many of us would rather create memories and make friends and push content to enjoy our subs the most and want to do explore and complete as much engaging content as possible. If the Genre is Trash because we want rewards for our efforts, then dang working for anything in life is must suck for a lot of people.

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And here I thought games should be entertainment. For fun. If the genre only works because of bribery and cant stand on its own with fun gameplay then it is a failure.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

And here I thought games should be entertainment. For fun. If the genre only works because of bribery and cant stand on its own with fun gameplay then it is a failure.

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It's called enjoying the work and effort you put in, content being fun means nothing if I get nothing for doing it. Like I love my job, being a nurse is really fun as a biology nerd and someone who has a LOT of empathy to give. But it also pays my bills.

Variant and Critireon are fun, but worthless given it's lack of rewards, I did it once and moved on. So the experience was nice, but the content isn't standing up for replayability. SE is a company that needs to make a bottom line and keep people paying subs, so rewards and long term reward, goals, and achievements are the core of why we play the fun gameplay. This is MMO 101 It's been this way since the inception of MMOs

I'm sorry you expect food to be on your table without work, but that's not how life, nature, and our literal existence works. Wolves hunt to eat, we work to get paid, we play to get rewarded.

If the Genre is trash because it's form of entertainment imitates life then this genre isn't for you.

Edit: Fishing is fun, Going out to the middle of a lake, or going to a nice calm shore is fun. But I also want to catch some fish as well.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Again you miss my point, this has nothing to do with enjoyment of the content on a personal level, not yours and not mine, you don’t like field content (though I find it hilarious you barely even engage with it then call it bad, pretty much the reason I instapull fates I prep in eureka) I do like field content, neither of our opinions matter

Square created grindy (by 14’s standards) content and made it overwhelmingly successful by tying a relic to it, then they made content in EW and didn’t tie a relic to it and it failed, why would square not tie a relic to their big content piece for the expansion (whether that’s field content or not in DT) when it can help drive that level of engagement (even if the entirety of the engagement of Bozja is not due to the relic it 100% contributed)

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Your definition of success is wrong. People doing content they hate to get a reward they want is not success. It doesn't matter what you say do think or believe otherwise, it won't change that fact.

When I engaged in Eureka/Bozja, it was even more antifun than AFKing next to the Aetheryte.

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

content being fun means nothing if I get nothing for doing it.

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Absolutely insane thing to say.

Also I dont expect food to be on my table without work. That's why I have a job. This game is not a job tho. I have my job to be my job.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Your definition of success is wrong. People doing content they hate to get a reward they want is not success. It doesn't matter what you say do think or believe otherwise, it won't change that fact.

When I engaged in Eureka/Bozja, it was even more antifun than AFKing next to the Aetheryte.

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You definition of success is coloured by what you enjoy, not what makes square more money and drives more interest in their content which is what I’m arguing

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Originally Posted by Saraide

If we just use engagement as metric than the current relic has been a massive success and we shouldnt hold the relic back with bozjas.



And here I thought games should be entertainment. For fun. If the genre only works because of bribery and cant stand on its own with fun gameplay then it is a failure.

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The current relic has had more completion but less overall engagement in collective 14 because it can be completed in less time and content not tied to it died way too fast like VC

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You definition of success is coloured by what you enjoy, not what makes square more money and drives more interest in their content which is what I’m arguing

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Then this definition of success via engagement is useless to us because we arent shareholders.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The current relic has had more completion but less overall engagement in collective 14 because it can be completed in less time and content not tied to it died way too fast like VC

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I'd respond with a counter to this - even though each individual relic can be completed in less time, how many relics are people completing? I'll give myself as an example - I only ever progressed one ARR relic through the Atma phase, and I never completed even a single ShB relic because I'm not as much a fan of the exploratory zone style. Meanwhile, I'll be fully completing 6 relics in EW (PLD, SCH, WHM, RDM, DRG, and BRD). I'm running noticeably more roulettes, and I'm still doing hunt trains long past the point I generally stopped in ShB. I complete each individual relic quicker, but my overall engagement is significantly higher because I'm completing so many more of them in the end.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Then this definition of success via engagement is useless to us because we arent shareholders.

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Correct; but it is the definition that square enix is likely to use, which has always been my point, I’ve never argued it’s a good system on squares part, have I not explained this clearly because I feel like I’ve explained this same point like 12 times at this point

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Originally Posted by Striker44

I'd respond with a counter to this - even though each individual relic can be completed in less time, how many relics are people completing? I'll give myself as an example - I only ever progressed one ARR relic through the Atma phase, and I never completed even a single ShB relic because I'm not as much a fan of the exploratory zone style. Meanwhile, I'll be fully completing 6 relics in EW (PLD, SCH, WHM, RDM, DRG, and BRD). I'm running noticeably more roulettes, and I'm still doing hunt trains long past the point I generally stopped in ShB. I complete each individual relic quicker, but my overall engagement is significantly higher because I'm completing so many more of them in the end.

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That’s a fair point, completion of multiple EW relics is likely to be higher than previous relics so it could be argued that overall the benefit to the game is positive

I’m not trying to argue that the relics must be tied to the exploratory content zones, doing 15 easy relics may actually lead to more benefit than doing 3 hard relics even if it makes the zone suffer

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Correct; but it is the definition that square enix is likely to use, which has always been my point, I’ve never argued it’s a good system on squares part, have I not explained this clearly because I feel like I’ve explained this same point like 12 times at this point



That’s a fair point, completion of multiple EW relics is likely to be higher than previous relics so it could be argued that overall the benefit to the game is positive

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It's because people are dense and self centered and forget that the company has to account for engagement metrics. Seeing beyond themselves is hard.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Correct; but it is the definition that square enix is likely to use, which has always been my point, I’ve never argued it’s a good system on squares part, have I not explained this clearly because I feel like I’ve explained this same point like 12 times at this point

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No, you're completely missing the point. The exploratory zones aren't successful, the relic is successful. People want the relic. Most don't want to do the exploratory zones. So slap the relic in Diadem and by your logic it automatically becomes successful, irregardless of the content.

If we're talking shareholder logic, they don't care at all about player retention. All they want is a high turn over rate of new players who pay a high amount of extras for a short time then move on quickly, especially if you have a discounted sub from 1.0. We could go even deeper into the political aspect that 14's been driven to since SHB, furthered in EW and complete in DT that the shareholders are pushing.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

No, you're completely missing the point. The exploratory zones aren't successful, the relic is successful. People want the relic. Most don't want to do the exploratory zones. So slap the relic in Diadem and by your logic it automatically becomes successful, irregardless of the content.

If we're talking shareholder logic, they don't care at all about player retention. All they want is a high turn over rate of new players who pay a high amount of extras for a short time then move on quickly, especially if you have a discounted sub from 1.0. We could go even deeper into the political aspect that 14's been driven to since SHB, furthered in EW and complete in DT that the shareholders are pushing.

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You just said I missed the point then explained my exact point back to me

Yes the relic helps drive content in exploratory content zones and that helps leads to their super high retention, ergo tying a relic to something is a great way to drive engagement for it, Bozja proves this, VC proves the reverse, that’s literally the entire point I’m making

Your personal opinion that it shouldn’t be this way because you don’t like Bozja is totally irrelevant to that argument

I do not want a return to exploration relics. Eureka was long slog. 4 zones too many. Bozja is the lesser of two evil with only 2 zones. That is 2 exploration relics need something different. I recently went back to eureka and bojza. eureka had about 20 players on avg bozja had about 50 so more going on for it. 3.0 relics are pretty good 2.0 is too many books and for eureka well it is just harder to do with less people. I would like something down with 5.0 relic to speed it up.

I wish the ew relic was not currency based. It just makes it seems you had less dev time and you just put that in.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You just said I missed the point then explained my exact point back to me

Yes the relic helps drive content in exploratory content zones and that helps leads to their super high retention, ergo tying a relic to something is a great way to drive engagement for it, Bozja proves this, VC proves the reverse, that’s literally the entire point I’m making

Your personal opinion that it shouldn’t be this way because you don’t like Bozja is totally irrelevant to that argument

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No, your point is that Bozja is successful and all relics should be kept in exploratory content because it was successful but your definition.

Your personal opinion that it should be this way because you like Bozja is totally irrelevant to that argument.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

No, your point is that Bozja is successful and all relics should be kept in exploratory content because it was successful but your definition.

Your personal opinion that it should be this way because you like Bozja is totally irrelevant to that argument.

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I’ve explained my point at least 10 times, if you still aren’t getting it I don’t know what to tell you, I have even explicitly said if square’s “big content piece” for DT is not field content they should tie the relic to that content

Bozja is a big content piece that succeeded due to a relic, the fact it’s field content means nothing

I had an idea for this, why not use the open world as the Eureka/Bozja fill-in?
The first step could work like this:
• Instead of Tomestones, the turn-in items cost Bicolor Gemstones (from FATEs).
• Each of the EW areas has its own turn-in item, six total. They will appear in the Bicolor Gemstone vendors in that area once you unlock the Relic quest.
• You need a combination of 3 turn-in items that changes depending on what weapon you are aiming for.
• To spice things up, we'll bring in multiple Critical Engagements (FATEs but with limited members) to each area as well with Combatant's Priority Deployment (i.e. those who help spawn the Critical Engagement get spawn in priority).
• They could also add Manderville Lockboxes/Caches that you can earn from EW FATEs once you unlocked the relic quest.

With this people would get their open world content, open world FATEs will have a purpose (outside of the rare, big FATEs that give you turn-ins for glam items), it won't be too hard or different from current gameplay, and it won't be as annoying as ARR's relic FATE grinding. *(*´∀｀*)☆