Not healing Damage Dealers

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

If you have a healer that needs to have another healer watch them and keep them alive. You seriously need to start playing with better players.

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Simply priorities. Healers take damage sometimes and you have to learn to adjust. Even for other healers.

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Simply priorities. Healers take damage sometimes and you have to learn to adjust. Even for other healers.

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A healer is far more capable of keeping themselves alive then a Dps is.
Honestly if a healer is taking too much dmg that they need help from another healer? they are most likely doing something wrong.

Seriously if you have 2 healers in the group and both of them can't keep themselves and everyone else in the party alive. They really we need learn how to play. My group runs with 1 whm for most content and she can easily keep the entire party healed and alive without mp issues. There is no excuse 2 whm can't.

I'm not saying DD's should not keep themselves alive and don't need to watch what they are doing because they do. taking unnecessary dmg is a dumb thing to do. But as a whm your job is to keep the entire party alive so they can do their job. Failing to do so only brings the entire party down.

Dear DD,

Quit sucking so much in Moogle.

Love me.


Seriously though...

Either your party set up has Bards that refuse to AOE Stoneskin in an efficient and organised manner or you are incapable of watching more then one thing at a time and knowing where to stand or not... which is probably why you don't main a Whm.

I think the general skill of the group that had annoyed you so much that you feel you need to make a forum post instead of directing it at said party is far less then capable.

You need to work on your skills as a group... who knows... maybe your tank was the one that sucked, maybe the whms did suck... or maybe it was just you, I wasn't there... can't say.

I can say there is one fight and one fight only that I refuse to 'heal' DD on... and that is Ifrit. Why? Because if I save you each time you get yourself blown up you will never learn to dodge properly. Don't get me wrong... you will get the usual Regen and Stoneskin... but stop acting recklessly and dodge that shite like a solid unit!

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Dear White Mages,

I can understand healing can become a chore sometimes. I can understand how frustrating it can get when melees take damage they can avoid when they either get hate or whatnot. What confuses me is the fact that half the time, some of you White Mages aren't healing melee DD's at all. I just got out of a random party where I have no choice but to take damage from the Moogle King doing the MRD move. As you can tell by my HP bar in the party member section, I had red HP with no way to heal myself since you did not heal me previosly. Please White mages, your job is to heal the entire party, NOT just the tank. It will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
All the DD's

P.S. I've played CNJ and WHM in the past, it's not hard when you have TWO WHM in party... >.>

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Simple solution everyone here seems to be missing for this particular case, if you don't kill MRD before King then he won't spam Moogle-go-round.

Honestly, after reading all the 5 pages, I think the true problem here is that OP never played with good WHMs, or something like that.

Because I've never seen a WHM that wasn't healing other people.

(Well, that's not 100% true. Actually, I did it myself, on my first few Ifrit fights, I was a white mage. But it didn't take long to know the fight and to be able to heal others)

I must also I haven't tried Moogle or Garuda (hard)

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Dear White Mages,

I can understand healing can become a chore sometimes. I can understand how frustrating it can get when melees take damage they can avoid when they either get hate or whatnot. What confuses me is the fact that half the time, some of you White Mages aren't healing melee DD's at all. I just got out of a random party where I have no choice but to take damage from the Moogle King doing the MRD move. As you can tell by my HP bar in the party member section, I had red HP with no way to heal myself since you did not heal me previosly. Please White mages, your job is to heal the entire party, NOT just the tank. It will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
All the DD's

P.S. I've played CNJ and WHM in the past, it's not hard when you have TWO WHM in party... >.>

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That's just a bad whm. Even when my job is to focus on tank, if the DD's are close enough, and the tank is in good standing, I'll toss a cure towards a DD if I can and the other WHM is busy.

But it helps when the whm I'm pting with is in mumble XD I'm quite good at alternating jobs. Er...but I digress, I'm going off topic.

Back OT, It's not that hard to keep the DD's healed up...if NOTHING else, toss a regen on them or something; low mana cost and quick cast/cooldown time. However, the only time I'll struggle to heal a DD is if they run out of range in, let's say, Ifrit....I wont leave my post and risk getting killed (which would ultimately lead to the party's wipe if the other whm or another raiser isn't fast enough at raising me) when it's possible to keep them alive if they just come back. I know they'll have to run out of range because of cracks, but I've had some people run out of range and stay out of range even when it was safe.

Another way I'll let a DD die is if by healing them, it puts the rest of the group in danger OR if the tank is at greater risk. As a DD-player as well as whm, I'm ok with dieing if the tank lives. It's much easier to save a fight by raising a DD than a tank.

meh I'm rambling now...sorry ^^;
tl;dr version: As a whm I'll make sure the DD's are healed, unless it threatens the success of the fight....that whm was just lazy.

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Don't get me wrong... you will get the usual Regen and Stoneskin... but stop acting recklessly and dodge that shite like a solid unit!

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When we don't, that's when DD's complain.

I know when I'm to dodging properly or not taking hate. But I'm also very highly aware of when I'm not being topped off and I have to switch out of damage skills to self-sustain skills.

And I'll be frank, some players are just not cut out to play the roles they play. That goes both for damage dealers and healers. But goddamned if healers are the more important to get that down.

This is why I love playing Jack of All Trades jobs as it allows me to prioritize assisting where players are having difficulties. FFXIV lacks that sort of thing right now, except for Bards. I like being able to shift tactics like that quickly. But it's not conducive to an MMO environment.

But from my days as healer/support. Triage of your DDs is a bad mentality to have, as it will extend your run time and provide even more chances for things to go wrong. Your healing priorities should be synonymous with the hate order, and healers need to do their best to stay as low as they possibly can go on that order - lower than the DD's as they're your tanks if the main tank falls for any reason - (Granted FFXIV makes that difficult with little hate dumping abilities.) and you can't heal or raise if you're the one having to kite or defend yourself.

So when it comes to restorative control, tank is first priority for all healing, then your spare defensive and HoT skills should go on the individual that's next on the hate list (Or if it's swapping between the two, the one most likely to take more damage.) Then on the line down.

Ideally, you should be taking the least amount of damage, so the occasional HoT on yourself should allow you to maintain. Only time you top yourself off is when you know you're about to get smacked hard. The only one lower than you on the priority list to immediately heal unless you're top on the hate list is Bards, as they should be smack bottom on the hate list and restore the self.

The priorities of Tank > Healer > DD has never worked for me. That situation assumes everyone is all taking the exact same damage and you're cutting off your 'expendables'. Your MP is equally irrelevant if you're fleeing from your life as it is if your dead or spent out. Your priority is the hate list, recovering damage on the top person of the hate list, and preparing the secondary on the hate list a buffer against damage when they take it. Everything else is HoT aside from emergency cures, which usually should be responded to by an AoE recovery/protection of some sort. (In this game it would probably preceded by Shroud of Saints, which is WHM's only real hate manipulation tool.)

Healing priorities should be a lot easier to maintain once 2.0 comes out and people will get a clearer picture on how hate is being distributed, so I don't think the complaints will last much longer past that. But keep in mind, Triage is bad mmkay? It's the absolute last thing you should think of doing.

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Originally Posted by Gugnir

In triage people are moved to the back of the line, like mp sponges and if you're a hot mess, as a damage dealer do you really think it looks good for you blaming others for your short comings? I've been in many parties where I just left people dead because it was more efficient to raise some one else, their dps sucked and when parsed they took more damage than the tank. It is a white mages job in my humble opinion to keep the party alive not a person. So, given the choice between that and a wipe, if you don't have second wind or a pot you'll need to wait for a heal.

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This. Sometimes the party is even better off with certain DDs dead.

Didn't read this whole thread but my response to all WHM is this.

Shut up and heal. =)

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Dear DD,

If the tank is taking a lot of damage, DD are just going to have to use an elixir.

If the tank is not taking a lot of damage and my HP is not down, I'll cure you, but I won't leave my spot to do it. Come in range.

Stop getting hit so much. I don't have the MP for TWO tanks.

Hiir, WHM

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I have always been able to heal everyone no problem, people still die occasionally but mainly by their own fault for getting hit with something they should not have. Majority of the time in a fight you have enough time to drop a Cure or SP CURE on the DD in between big cures on tanks. Though obviously there is variables and situations which restricts you sometimes where you can't heal the DD and they should understand that.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

Two healers should not require full attention on tank (Ifrit for example)

If the tank is not taking a lot of damage, YOUR job as a WHM is to heal. Mine is to damage deal. If everytime I needed a heal and had to move to you, I wouldn't be doing my job as a damage dealer.

If you read what situation I was talking about, you would understand that I have no choice but to get hit. The White Mages were in range. And I'm not tanking, I'm a melee damage dealer.

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Actually 2 WHM on Ifrit isn't as easy as you say even if you have done it before. Yes it can be solo'd healed but even when you have two WHMs the other WHM is usually helping keep up buffs on the whole party and spot curing those oh shit moments which happen more often than not on Ifrit.

Ifrit still has latency issues so a lot of times people are taking damage on things they should not be. As a healer that fight is intensive from the start to finish and stressful, because if you devote too much time to keep the DD alive when they should be avoiding majority of the damage in the first place the tank will die, period. It also depends on the skill/gear of your tank and the skill/gear of your healers. Don't call the healers out as a whole call out the crappy healers you had a problem with. kkthx.

P.S. Make sure to use your utility abilities if your job has them available. Use everything at your disposal and don't overly worry about how high your damage is going to be in the parser. Staying alive and doing your part is your job in a team based effort.

"Derp derp y wuld heelerz need heeling?"

Probably because they pulled hate from spam healing to keep the dumb lazy DD (who's taking far more damage than the other 7 members of the party because they're facerolling while standing in a damage hazard) alive.

Some people are such bad players that they're worse than an empty slot in the party, and its best to just let them die before they sabotage the fight or waste too many needed resources.

I personally dont bother healing DD that constantly keep taking damages from plumes/eruption/pom flares. Terrible players are terrible.

i know what the OP means.

im almost always a WHM and its not hard if you can think ahead, alot of people just do things as it happens then its too late. theres always gonna be people who cant manage what to do thats why you keep regen on the tank and melee DD so when you have to keep focus on the tank atleast there getting a little hp while they wait.

only thing i hate in boss type fights is when people wont stand where they need too then i gotta burn up my raises & mp on them, accidents happen but happen less when they do what they need to. range DD need know a fight good enough to not get constantly beat up and some refuse to learn and keep doing what they been doing. like standing on the out side ring in moogle fight where the tank is kiting and then the kings aoe destroys them.

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Originally Posted by Darkillumina

Didn't read this whole thread but my response to all WHM is this.

Shut up and heal. =)

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No


10 words to post

That all depends on the fight, Lina is 100% right when we talk about Moogle, cause you can't avoid taking damage as a dd there. Usually one WHM takes care of the tank and the other one of the rest in my PTs.

When we talk about Ifrit it all depends on the situation. Both WHMs have main priority on the tank there, having one focus on the rest of the party should be necessary as DDs SHOULD avoid almost all damage (his close-range AoE is the only thing that should hit melees, but a Regen is usually enough for that). I gladly toss a Heal/Regen/Stoneskin in the back lines there, but if I can't afford the MP or the Tank needs healing, I simply can't help them. And especially in the last phase, that's often the case. :3

Please don't take my levels too seriously as I rerolled my character.

My favorite thing is when DD's or tanks complain about heals when they themselves have never mained healed as a "career" job in a game. The only job that has leway in complaints is a tank because the have a pretty big responsibility. But DD's...you have maybe 3.

1.) Deal damage
2.) Don't steal hate
3.) Mitigate damage

As a main healer your job is to keep THE WHOLE GROUP alive and ALL BUFFS up, with some situational triage as necessary. That is a pretty tall order considering how important our buffs are and and one misstep could mean a wipe. Yes, sometimes the healer needs healing because we play a risk v reward game. Step in to heal an ailing party member and we might take a hit which needs to be healed or wait for a safer opening which may cause them to take another hit and die. That's why 2 healers in a party prioritize each other. We are not immune to damage and while we have ways to heal, our hp and defense are far lower than a DDs. No class DD, tank, or heals, is excused from using consumables...everyone should have them, but it is also not always feasible to use them at exactly the right moment. It is never any classes job to make up for people's stupidity, that was mentioned somewhere so I am commenting on it. Games are designed as a team effort and should be played as such. a Bard has ways to heal and support, all jobs have a form of damage mitigation via dodging and self healing. Do your part.

Lol I don't know if this is true or not but it seems like people are making assumptions that I'm a bad DD lol. So many times on Ifrit and Moogle have I outlasted the whole party because I've done the two so much.

No I am not taking damage from things that can easily be missed like Pom Flare.

This one experience was with Japanese players and I've noticed a trend with NA players.

Please people, don't make assumptions about my skill level because of this thread. Seems like half the people making assumptions didn't even read the Actual post

No job is really harder then the other it depends on the player and the group. Every job though depends on each other.

A tank can't tank if he doesn't get heals.
A DD can't deal dmg if a tank doesn't keep hate or a healer doesn't keep them alive.
A healer can't keep people alive if they keep doing stupid things to take damage.

If one job doesn't do their role it will effect everyone else's role and brings the entire party down.

The problem most of you seem to have is you run with shitty players most the time. So you only have experience with shitty DD who don't know wtf they are doing. If they are really so bad they bring nothing good to the party then stop running with them. It's your own fault and doesn't give you an excuse to not do your job when you do get good DDs that need heals from time to time. People will make mistakes and take dmg.

Edit: If DPS is such an easy job. Why do most of them suck so bad?

I love playing WHM :)

it's the bestest. also the stressedest. don't piss us off or you won't get to your loot chest. ;)

j/k we love you all equally, even the "special" ones.

Pissing and moaning that DD shouldn't take damage doesn't do anyone a bit of good. If you aren't healing the people that need healing regardless of how or why they took damage, then you're an awful healer.

when i whm guess the only real pet peeve i have is when DD that's getting hit decides to just kinda stay there taking hits or when a DD goes into red hp and doesn't even allow a second or two for a heal to be que'd. It is my job as a whm to heal you from an unavoidable big hit but then when you decide to stay there and take more big hits and you die because cures cant keep you alive and cura has a cd then at least have the decency to recognize your mistake. Admittedly as someone that used to heal in WoW at least the overall "healers fault" ideology in FF 14 is considerably less present, but when you nag a healer it makes them wanna heal you even less. :P

If you're healing the tank only in a party as a white mage. You need another profession.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

If you're healing the tank only in a party as a white mage. You need another profession.

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Unless there is 2 WHM and one is designated as the tank healer. Of course this is totally situational based on skills of WHM A or B. Though in general nothing wrong with an assigned healer doing his assigned job.

seems like u need to talk to your party not all of FFXIV hmmm....................?

Lol do people not read at all? RANDOM PARTY... geeze

not this thread again plz let the topic die alreadr thh forum is ment to help the dev team with ideas not sit here and cry about other pc the drama forum is down the hall ty

ffxiv illustrates what happens when you make lvl'ing too casual. You end up with situations where good players don't want to intermix with pugs and when your in pugs you deal with players who make retarded decisions constantly.

ex. running to wolves camp and healers see members taking dmg on the way their reaction is to pop curaga even though half the party is not in range, or cura on a war who has taken 25% of dmg loss from gathering up a group of mobs. Then pulling hate before the war gets off SS and then dieing. Then the BRD proceeds to dps single target at close range and rather then raise the whm or use aoe out of combo they try combo'ing and using up their TP so they have none left for rain of death/wide volley. Best part is the party probably wipes rather then running back to the previous gate to let the mobs leash.

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Originally Posted by dragorian

not this thread again plz let the topic die alreadr thh forum is ment to help the dev team with ideas not sit here and cry about other pc the drama forum is down the hall ty

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If your gonna call out a thread, make sure you can at least type a sentence. Periods, use them.

Oh, this isn't "pc drama". This is something that is legit problem.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

If your gonna call out a thread, make sure you can at least type a sentence. Periods, use them.

Oh, this isn't "pc drama". This is something that is legit problem.

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Not as far as game mechanics go. This is strictly a PC problem. {Brain} {You can have this}
Also, not everyone speaks English as a first language.

It basically comes down to this:
-As a WHM, your job is to heal and not die
-As a DD, your job is to do damage and not die
-As a Tank, your job is to keep aggro and not die

If the DD makes a mistake, it's his fault. Should you heal him? Yes. If you don't, then neither of you are doing your job. If he's consistently taking too much damage, replace him. If the DD are taking reasonable amounts of damage occasionally but not getting heals, the WHM should be replaced.

Mistakes happen, that's fine. Neglect isn't (regardless of whether it's done by a DD or a WHM).

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

Seriously if you have 2 healers in the group and both of them can't keep themselves and everyone else in the party alive. They really we need learn how to play. My group runs with 1 whm for most content and she can easily keep the entire party healed and alive without mp issues. There is no excuse 2 whm can't..

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Except when the dd who needs the cure for some reason known only to themselves runs all the way over fkn there..........

As for throwing cures to top of dds hp screw that, use regen. if a dd is taking more damage than regen can keep up with then they're doing something wrong for the most part. yes shit happens and you need the occasional cure but most of the time regen + there self heals second wind necrogenesis etc is enough to keep any dd standing.

Done ifrit fights with DD who like to stand where ever they want and out of range of whms. i expect the DD to be in range of the whms for heals i dont expect the whms being forced to move out of thier position to heal them.

Heal the DD as much as possible. The only time I dont is if they're about to get one shotted and won't make it out anyway, or if the tank is in need of heals more at that moment. If they pull hate, they're doing their job, while the tank isn't keeping up with his. Some tanks are just gimp so it's inevitable.. I've gone from green to flashing red in one combo on my Monk before. Whm's should be prepared to deal with situations like that.

Can't really agree on that - if the tank can't hold the hate, you have to stop nuking.

Of course the best case would be a tank that holds hate whatever you do, but remember that not every tank will live up to your expectations - if you can't live with that slow down a bit on damage (its just ifrit we're talking about here) and replace him, but don't keep nuking and bitch at him afterwards, thats kind of unproductive :3

I have played both tanks and healers on alot of mmos, especially ff11. I personally find healing the easiest of the 3 jobs... as long as DDs play by the rules. Unfortunately on 14 I have been a solo player but I will most likely raise WHM as my job. I will say tanking takes skill in knowing when and how to best use hate gaining abilities but that being said DDs need to watch there own enmity. I have healed groups in other mmos that did not know a fight was to play out or where to run when the defecation hit the rotating oscillator. I let them die all for the greater good... IOWs i let them die to conserve MP, you do have incompetent DD, healers AND tanks and wipes could be due to any combination thereof. First thing ANYONE should look at is if they are well enough to do the fight.. ie.. gear.. some are some aren't.. if your gear isn't up to par dont do endgame... you're just dead weight... if everyone is up to par then it falls on skill and some people need to be dropped and replaced... unless you need or are running 2 tanks/healers neither job can be carried... but DDs can and some do crap because of it, but a bad healer/tank can also wipe a group.. so it's best to look at every player and not just one or 2.. and because I could i used to both heal AND DD in ff 14 as a SMN/WHM and I did pretty good at it too.. my group never needed 2 healers in rough spots.. if it is truly a rough battle then maybe one of the caster DDs (if they are able to) should equip some healing spells to their action bar and honestly help the healer. Things can go wrong and it can be alot on one healer if you have bad DD or a tank that can't get hit like s/he should and a few extra heals are needed from time to time. I know it may not be the wisest decision with all the changes but im not going for WHM til i cap CNJ. As stated I AM a solo player but I do study whatever role I chose to take so that I know I not the cause for the wipe.. Perhaps some people need to rid themselves of their pride and check their own skills out first.. But remember first and foremost.. IT'S A GAME!!! You play to have fun, and endgame must remain difficult and not for the leisurely player who doesn't want to have their skills tested.

O you want heals? stop running and come in range then. christ reminds me of people who *demand* raises even if it costs the battle.

I try to keep everyone up, but people tend to get grouchy when the whm or tank dies because dds can't manage their hate and hp recovery skills
EDIT thus causing whm to wrongly decide to start cure bombing them, blah

Look, it boils down to this...The party needs to work together. Tanks need to keep and hold hate while at the same time, keeping the mobs AOE's (if they have them) from hitting the party. DD's need to take things out as quickly as possible without taking hate from the tank or taking too much damage. Healers need to keep everyone...yes everyone alive.

As a whm, I do everything I can to keep everyone alive. SS/Regen/Protect...I dream them. Benediction, not afraid to use it. Seeing party members in the red, causes my blood pressure to rise...that said:


Do you know how many DD's run out of range while we're buffing because you're too impatient to wait?

Or how many run AWAY from me when you need a cure...look if you have hate run TOWARDS the TANK. I can heal you there and you won't pull that angry baddie towards the party/me which could cause me further healing dilemas.

Do you know how many times I'm in a battle like Chimera, where even if everyone IS doing their job, I'm still riding red...some random blm decides he's gonna pull hate in the beginning of the fight instead of letting the tank build properly? And I have to choose, cure them and pull hate or let them take a dirt nap (which btw resets that BLM's hate problem).

Do you know how many times I've been in Coin Counter Battles, and people keep on DDing right through Animal Instinct only to either kill off or severely injure most if not all the party?

Or how many tanks and DD's who don't avoid the moves they properly should?

Yet, to my knowledge, there have been no forum posts started by WHM's whining about how other classes/jobs don't hold their weight in the party...you know why? Because a GOOD WHM know how to compensate for your screw ups...and they are YOUR screw-ups. We already plan for the damage we know people will take: Regen rotations in AV, Keeping buffs like SS/Protect up during an Astral Flow, knowing the spots a tank will stop in a dungeon to cure them to full/buff them etc....and still usually manage toovercome the damage that shouldn't have been taken. I think WHM is probably the most quick-decision making role in the game atm. We have to watch the entire battlefield, our hate, MP levels etc and instantly decide, who gets what when....sometimes we screw up. But usually we only get put in a position to screw up when someone else already made the mistake.


...and sometimes, it IS more efficient to let the DD who is constantly getting hit by stuff that everyone else is avoiding, take a dirt nap...Raise is sometimes cheaper and more effective than spamming cure. If you don't like it, you could always, I don't know...become a White Mage ;)

I haven't been in a situation really where Regen/stoneskin wasn't enough to keep the DD's alive. aside from massive AoE, in which case i benediction.

if my DDs are taking massive damage, they did something wrong. in which case dieing will reset their hate. if they want to stay alive, they need to not do stupid crap and learn to manage their hate.

Fortunately Regen is IMBA so I just toss that on any DD and if they are taking more damage then what Regen can protect them for then 9 times out of 10 it is their fault ; D.

Sorry, us WHM's expect DD's to avoid things.