The appeal for many is probably "I can fix him."Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
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09-12-2023, 07:14 AMSaberMaxwell
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09-12-2023, 08:36 AMIscahI disagree. He's still just one part of a larger story – as I wrote earlier, I came out of Shadowbringers loving all of the other story threads: our rekindled friendship with Raha, an increased focus on the Scions (finally some decent screentime for Urianger), and our connection with Ardbert. Emet only ever felt like the villain driving this plot along, until eventually it became clear that the writers intended him to be seen in a different way to how I was seeing him and I don't think it was conveyed well at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassar
True, but Emet isn't presented as someone you're meant to dislike, particularly once you get past 5.0 and into things like the side stories. Neither does it seem that any of the fanbase regard him as a "love to hate him" character who is popular for being a wicked villain.Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage
He's treated as a tragic hero and lauded for trying to reach out to us despite being on opposite sides, which isn't what it feels like to me at all.
I have to wonder how many people actually replay the story, and how many go through it once and let the ending of Shadowbringers reframe how they remember Emet acting towards us, thinking he was more open than he actually was.
Sure he did, but in a condescending manner, and clearly only ever telling us the parts of the truth that suited him and wouldn't derail his private plans. He was smug about the fact that he was plotting something secret, enforced himself on our group, vanished again when it suited him while potentially getting us in deep trouble... That's not talking to us, that's just plotting and scheming in the open instead of the dark, utterly confident that we won't catch on to his actual intent before it's too late.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightamethyst
By that point, even his saving Y'shtola didn't feel like proof he's genuinely helpful, just another way to keep us constantly off-guard and confused about his true motive.
The closest he gets to honesty is that one moment at the Ladder where he starts getting all nostalgic about Amaurot, but he still turns it into an "I'm explicitly keeping secrets from you" moment by making the remark about us not remembering, then refusing to elaborate when we question it. -
09-12-2023, 11:10 AMClereticYeah, it sucks! But it's less because Emet is really pervasive of pivotal to the story as a person--I know I can mostly omit him from all of it, and it doesn't really matter much. Hell, Elpis actually helps with that, because it means Emet doesn't have to be the primary contact point for anything about his story; I can reference Elpis and Pandaemonium for Ancient stuff, I can reference... well, any other Ascian for Ascian stuff, and I can reference the copious amount of stuff on the Empire for Solus stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassar
What actually sucks is that conversation about him is so pervasive, and so counter to negative discussion about him. For comparison, I'd ballpark that the least popular MSQ villain in the game is Thordan, just by the fact I've never seen someone actually express liking him. But if you hate Thordan, that's never gonna come up, in game or out; once Thordan's dead he's abundantly dead, he never comes back, and nobody's really around talking him up, or saying he's actually super important to everything, or defending him as actually being the hero, or shipping him with the WoL, or writing elaborate fanfiction about him. If you want to play FFXIV, but don't want to talk about Thordan, nobody will force you to. But all that stuff's present for Emet, conversation around the game is constantly going back to this character, and going back so lovingly.
It's not a good feeling to constantly be dragged into everyone talking positively about a character you have nothing but negative feelings about. It especially sucks when both feelings are actually valid, but the sheer volume of strong talk about one drowns out the other; we're not wrong for not liking Emet or thinking he's a bad guy, he's a monster and thinking that about him is absolutely valid, but it sure doesn't feel like you're allowed to sometimes. -
09-13-2023, 01:00 AMCassarI can definitely see your point. I will add though, just because the character is written to be a monster, it doesn't necessarily mean- Actually, as I'm writing this, I feel I need to ask: do you (and everyone else who dislikes Emet) dislike him because you think he's a bad guy, or because you think he's just not well written? Because I feel I've had the wrong impression this whole time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
A character that always comes to mind in this context is Asahi. Asahi is written to be by far the most unlikeable and despicable person to ever exist, and yet I still love his character (in terms of how he's written) and the role he plays in the story. -
09-13-2023, 01:52 AMDenishia
As someone who dislikes him more than Zenos (used to be a tight race but the way Zenos’s boring ennui and single-focused battle high was worked into Endwalker’s multiple examinations of finding purpose and combating depression, his continued plot existence finally started to satisfy me when even Zenos’s introduction scene had me groaning with boredom) - I’d say Emet isn’t the best-written character but he isn’t badly written or shallow. But the writing does stumble personally in ways that has been articulated by others: he is only given a small rebuttal at the climax of 6.0 and his direct hands on culpability for the numerous Garlean evils is painfully glossed over by never having him interact with any Garlean but Varis and none of their direct victims- we don’t even get to tell Jullus or Drussila the true mastermind behind their suffering. And the Allagans and his culpability a light touch as well. 6.1 helped to reenforce the narrative presence of Eulmore and that the horrible place of Soylent-Green Meol exploitation under Vauthry wasn’t what Eulmore had been like decades after the Flood of Light and was another horror to lay at Emet’s feet.
But also that I didn’t find him funny. He wasn’t fun to hate like Nabriales or Asashi and he wasn’t wrong but still pitiably sympathetic like Ilberd or Nidhogg. Fandaniel? Fantastic. But Emet was the vile two-faced lie by omission and blindness that only his goals mattered - but unlike Elidibus there was very little wiggle room allowed for a range of negative player reaction to him. And that type of enemies to lovers power fantasy that the “our WoL is Azem so the villain cares for us not on our own merits or that his bigotry is wrong but he decides we’re the exception that doesn’t count in the dehumanization” - it gets into the specific version of that type of Chosen One trope I bounce off of instead of enjoy.
The writing assumes I don’t find his presence annoying at best but likes him- same as why DRK 30-50 is one of my least favorite job quest lines because it requires the player character to have been annoyed with ARR and not enjoy the player fantasy that those fetch quests fulfill for the emotional narrative beat to work and make Fray resonate.
Also as aesthetically unpleasant as Valens. At least while I think most of the Garlean armor isn’t that cool or appealing to look at, the Hydrus model is better than Zenos’s suit. So Valens at least has a decent body design. Emet is just ugly with a character appropriate if meh outfit. And the Elpis look is so hilariously on the nose with the meme-tastic ugly Xenohart clone that it’s just laughable. -
09-13-2023, 05:40 AMTurnintino
I agree with a lot of that. And I'll also concede that it's ultimately a much simpler issue for me at the end of the day: I just find him incredibly grating lol. His endless smarminess, his painfully transparent attempts at manipulation that the narrative allows no room but to fall for, his eternally smug face, his bottomless hypocrisy and utter lack of self-awareness that makes every interaction with him all the more frustrating because it's never properly resolved... The list goes on. All that combined to make the suddenly sympathetic bent of his arc's climax in Shadowbringers all the harder to swallow, and certainly not without leaving an awful taste in my mouth.
Now, I think any handful of those things can still make for a compelling and entertaining villain, but all together it was a bridge too far to be fun or enjoyable -- for me. This is as much about his characterization as it is about the writing that surrounds him, which, as Denishia said, stumbles as it approaches the finish line... And then Endwalker picks up where its predecessor left off, with the assumption that it was successful in endearing him to everyone. While I was left to roll my eyes at every narration and appearance lol. -
09-13-2023, 07:31 AMCiliaI can't speak for anyone else, but...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassar
Personally I don't like him because the story kind of forces you (or at least your character) to sympathize with him, while simultaneously glossing over the fact he's wrought the same death and destruction on the reflections and Source he condemns Hydaelyn for several times over. I think Y'shtola tells him off once in the Ocular, but other than that nobody ever brings up his raging hypocrisy even after the fact (since we only learn that in Amaurot and he dies shortly thereafter). The smarmy attitude I can deal with - affable or not, he's still an antagonist and it suits him - but the fact he's responsible for countless deaths and the destruction of who knows how many civilizations, whines about how unfair the end of his own was, and the story still assumes we were best buddies with him (to the point we summon his soul twice with the Azem stone, and our attitude when first arriving on Elpis immediately picks up when we hear his voice) really rubs me the wrong way.
The fact lots of people declared the Ascians to have done nothing wrong in the wake of the half-truths he provided really didn't help either.
Emet-Selch is pretty well-written and a good person on a personal level, but that doesn't change the fact his methods (if not quite his end goals) are nothing short of horrific.
I enjoy his character, in the sense that he's the smarmy antagonist plotting just behind your back but trying to force the "not bad just misunderstood" angle didn't quite work for me. Not a fan of the tsundere attitude either. -
09-13-2023, 07:48 AMBrightamethystYou don't have to agree with someone to sympathize with them. Understanding doesn't automatically mean acceptance. You can feel sorry that he has a tragic backstory while still agreeing that he's a villain and needs to be stopped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
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09-13-2023, 09:41 AMClereticThe very first point I make in my video about why I don't like Emet (it's over here and I stand by all my points) is that I don't think that he's badly-written. Hell, I'd probably hate him less if he was, because I find it really easy to dismiss and forget about something I recognize as badly-written. I don't think he's a masterpiece of writing, and that video is largely built around the fact that Fandaniel is just a better-executed version of him from a structural perspective, but I don't think he's badly written.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassar
I think he's a monster and don't find him sympathetic mostly because of that, but get really annoyed at both the game and its community assuming it's earned the sympathy from me that his story needs to function. And it really just hasn't, because I can't be sympathetic towards someone who's unapologetically responsible for the things Emet is.
Fortunately, the game doesn't actually need you to be sympathetic towards him in the long-term; the story still functions, it's just that a number of Emet scenes fall flat and hit wrong notes. -
09-13-2023, 12:58 PMCiliaWhich would be a fair point - if the story let you get away with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightamethyst
When you finally meet Emet-Selch in phantom Amaurot you have the option of telling him you showed up to stop him or to save G'raha. Going with the former will have him go on a tirade about how unfair it is the Ascians are painted as villains for their actions, and he monologues so long nobody thinks to call him out on the hypocrisy of it all. (Alphinaud just reaffirms their resolve.)
By my measure he is a tragic and pitiable character, just not in the way the narrative presents him as being. -
09-13-2023, 03:35 PMIscahI dislike him because he's presented inconsistently, and the way he's written in some parts is at odds with others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassar
First impressions matter, and his early interactions with Varis show him to be cruel and manipulative, basically abusive to Varis, with the implication that this how "Grandfather Solus" has treated him all his life. (It had the seeds of sending Varis off in a more sympathetic direction, together with what unknown secret plans we thought he might have had at the time of the parley and the old plot thread of the Warring Triad storyline suggesting we might become allies with him in future, but the writers tossed it all aside to make him a total villain who wants to use Black Rose for the sake of it.)
Then, as I outlined earlier, most of Shadowbringers gave you reasons to not trust him, hinted at his involvement in so many atrocities, then suddenly throwing the "actually you were friends once" thing at me – which felt so jarring exactly because I couldn't picture my character ever having been willing friends with someone who was so casually cruel and ruthless.
His sudden appearance at the Seat of Sacrifice should have been the last of him. It was a perfect send-off. If they wanted to tie up loose ends of what happened to the real Hythlodaeus, my guess/headcanon at the time was that G'raha has his soul, which I think would have rounded things off nicely.
Instead we got first the Tales From the Shadows, which delved into his mindset a bit more but also reframed the whole Convocation as a comedy, and then Endwalker itself was complicated. (Somewhere around here I had resigned myself to the mindset that I will need to at least attempt to like Emet if he gets mentioned again, because the writers are dead set on writing from the perspective that you like him.)
The first thing with Endwalker was that it made Emet inherently less "tragic" by reframing the whole situation. Where the language had previously pointed to people "giving up their life energies" to form Zodiark, and the Ascians obsessed with the impossible prospect of reviving what was already dead and gone and beyond reclaiming, they were now genuinely working to rescue people who could be rescued (with that little forever-glossed-over detail of whether the whole plan involved replacing willing souls with unwilling ones). Again it seems to be intended to make you think Emet is a good person, at least from the world as he experiences it, but the ambiguity – to say the least! – of how it affects people around him still makes it hard to accept that reframing.
And then we have Elpis, where we really have to put aside all his future misdeeds and like him there if he's likeable, but... meh. He's just non-stop prickly and unlikeable, even if he does get some funny remarks in sometimes, and I still can't picture him being friends with my character or even "Azem as an independent character" from what little we know of them. Hyth and Azem and maybe Venat as a group, sure, but it sounds like they're all bent on making Emet's life hell and it's not clear what they actually get out of each other as reciprocal friends.
And finally Ultima Thule where he's this messy tangle of behaving like his Elpis personality but also still insisting that all the things he did in his life were the right things to do, while also being in "we're back to being friends now" mode and he gets a happy ending that is... well, in isolation and in the context of "your old friend who has suffered for years doing what he thought was right", a very nice send-off and I liked that he and Hyth finally got what they always wanted: finish their life's purpose and depart the world together by choice. BUT, once again, that immediate niceness jars with the wider picture of what the game showed me of him, particularly the element of him never showing regret for what he did in his long time as an Ascian.
Showing is a key point, I think. We got told a lot that he is (or was) actually a good and noble soul in harsh circumstances, but we never really saw it.
I still find it problematic that (particularly in Shadowbringers) the sympathy card was thrown in at the end, inbetween his story-long untrustworthiness and outright trying to kill you all. It just feels forced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightamethyst
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09-13-2023, 08:08 PMMortex
I do think emet would work way more if he had doubts and being troubled over killing so many people and effectively doing the same thing too other worlds as has happened with the ancients. Like he knows what he does is utterly vile and evil but it’s the only way for zoodiarc too bring back all his friends and people he cared about. His smug and holier than thou attitude plus his quote “I do not consider you to be truly alive. Ergo, I will not be guilty of murder if I kill you.” is the most villain thing you can do and then thing people feel bad about him. Like they had even the chance too make him light hearted and not a tsundere in Elpis and explain his shitty ass behavior in the future with this. Like from mildly grumpy too mega grumpy isn’t a good character arc.
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09-13-2023, 09:06 PMClereticI've seen a lot of people say he actually does have that conflict, but I haven't really seen a lot of evidence for it. Everything I have seen says that his rhetoric about the sundered people didn't change across the ages; he describes them with the exact same language both shortly after the event, and when he's posing as Solus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortex
If that was really the intention, they could've used driving that point home much harder. But it does hit a bit of a struggle point; because of his overall purpose within the story, the writers wouldn't want him to seem too regretful or hesitant. They ultimately want him always thinking he was in the right, otherwise that overall angle of 'he made a hard decision in a situation where there were no good answers, but he stands by it and that by nature puts him against you' doesn't quite land. -
09-14-2023, 12:54 AMCassar
Always interesting to read different perspectives on Emet, even if it was already talked about many times in the past and you guys are probably already tired of repeating yourselves.
I can definitely see it being annoying to have to deal with the story assuming you like a character when in reality you don't. I know a lot of people have this kind of issue with Zenos too and it was even mentioned in a QnA session I believe - when they were thinking of how to make the main character react to the mention of Zenos in 6.4.
I think everything you said is valid, there's not much that I can add or counter argue as it all comes down to opinion. As I said previously, it's just very unfortunate that this ended up happening with this character.
What I can say is what I personally feel, which is the fact that I never really cared too much about the intricacies of his character. I knew his purpose and motives, I put myself in his shoes and I thought "Damn, I probably would do the same thing". And in the end that's really all I need to appreciate the character.
When it comes to personality, I think I subconsciously cast that aside as a factor. Going back to the Asahi example: absolutely despicable personality, but I still like the character.
But of course, as always, to each their own.
Either way, still good to see different perspectives and here's hoping whoever's the next big evil man is enjoyable for everyone :D . -
09-14-2023, 08:59 AMClereticIn a character focused story, how much you like the character is invariably going to factor in to if that character's story is sympathetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassar
Here's the thing about bringing in Asahi as a comparison: you're not supposed to like him. He's an absolutely detestable, loathsome and pathetic guy, and is absolutely designed to be, there's not a sympathetic bone in his body. He's designed for one purpose, and that purpose is 'make you want to give him a swirlie'; you not liking him is the character working as intended, and his intention is very simple. Hell, that purpose comes back when Amon takes his body; the fact he's got Asahi's body shortcuts how we're supposed to feel about him, you immediately kick off with the intended response of thinking this guy's kind of a dolt, a response that they build on in interesting ways.
Emet's a much more complex situation, because there's a few layers going on. But the ones relevant to this for me: he's a character who asks for sympathy to some degree, but has the personality and demeanor of some of the worst people I've met in my life. On a logical level I can engage with the facts of his story and recognize that those are probably sympathetic and land at one of the intended responses of 'I can get why someone would get themselves into this position, but I don't feel I would do that'. But Emet's personality is an undismissable element: he's too strong a personality, too impossible to divorce from his own story. And for me, and several others that frequently get drowned out in greater discussion, that personality does more to hurt his point than help it, both for directly related reasons of 'this person doesn't seem like he's trustworthy or genuine' and more unrelated reasons of 'I don't like this guy, so I'm less inclined to like his point'. -
09-14-2023, 11:08 AMLyth
The inconsistency that people have noted in Emet's writing results from flanderization. His original story arc from late Stormblood through to the end of the 5.0 MSQ was enjoyable, and he was an interesting villain. He's ultimately an Ardyn expy, but a well executed one.
What him uniquely popular was Azem, and the last minute revelation that we were secretly friends all along from another life. Couple that with the transition from 'You will not inherit our legacy' to 'Fine, you can inherit our legacy' and you have a strong audience hook.
The end result of this popularity surge was that the Tales of the Shadows short stories and Endwalker flanderized him from ruthless psychopath to facepalming softy. It's a bit like trying to redeem Kefka or Sephiroth and turn them into your buddies at the end of their respective stories. It would make for a cute AU spin-off manga idea, but trying to actually work it into story canon makes for a bit of whiplash. I think that's what people take issue with in his writing.
It's perfectly fine for a villain to just be a villain. -
09-14-2023, 12:29 PMSannaR
Emet for me is the immortal being who has either written off mortals or almost has done so until they meet a PoV character or a group. Who may or may not have tried or thought of ending themselves yet is unable to pull the trigger themselves due to feeling some sense of honor or duty. Dracula at the start of the Castlevania series and Marius de Romanus from Anne Rice's The Vampire Chronicles pre Queen of the Damned. Spoilers for The Vampire Lestat and I guess the TV series if it ever gets that far plot wise or goes this route but Marius ends up becoming the care taker of the 1st two Vampires where if one is able to shove the 1st Vampire out into to the sun it ends up acting as a suicide and countless murders as anyone who isn't lucky or really stupid old ends up turning to ash. As that's what happened the last time someone pulled placing two statuesque beings into an area that would become covered in sunlight once daytime came about. Along with a guy who might have finally gotten to the acceptance stage of grief.
As he looks and reads as a person who thinks and feels as though they are doing most of the heavy lifting when it comes to the rejoinings. Lahabreha really let his tainted by his wife part of him go wild and Elidibus only seemed to do things if there looked to be an imbalance. He purposely goads the Scions into disliking him because he knows how they are and how the WoL is. Fandaniel proves to us that if Emet was able to allow himself to be vulnerable in front of people that they would have questioned why he wanted to stop doing the rejoinings. Why he needed our help to carry his burden.
He lies mostly to himself because he feels so bound by the plan, and his duty that it feels wrong to even just think of stopping. It feels shameful to want to give up on the rejoinings to accept that even if they did succeed in rejoining every shard most of the people they knew were gone. Same with most of the places they loved or cared about. That only those inside of Zodiark would still be who they were. Sort of as I feel even Hythlodaeus wouldn't 100% be the exact same person he was before becoming apart of Zodiark.
Emet is socially awkward and tends to be prickly again due to wanting to keep people out. He doesn't enjoy people seeing underneath the mask he wears on the outside. Nor does he enjoy at all having people see him being weak or vulnerable. So much so he would rather have people see him as a unkind, all business type. Yet we know from how Hythlodaeus and Venat tease him that is all a front. -
09-14-2023, 03:34 PMBrightamethystThat depends entirely on whether you actually like the whole "the WoL is Azem reborn" thing, which many people do NOT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
Personally, I almost laughed out loud at the audacity of the writing team when they pulled the "actually you're the secret extra special SUPER chosen one!" card, and spent most of EW unable to take anything seriously. -
09-14-2023, 05:29 PMTurnintinoI tend to resign myself to the whole "chosen one" narrative, since it's often par for the course in any remotely linear RPG (even if you aren't innately super ultra extra special, the player character is still often saddled with immense responsibility or even authority; they'll never get to be "just another adventurer"), and of course I wouldn't want to write that off because it obviously does well to heighten the stakes in any context where your character is the "main" character. And power fantasies like that, in general, are very broadly appealing. But man... I sure rolled my eyes at the Azem revelation lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightamethyst
In the same way that I took issue with the revelation that much of the fauna we've seen since the game's introduction are all or mostly descendants of Ancient creations... There's just something about things like that that both make the world feel smaller and also diminish its (and its characters) identities in my mind. It just feels so reductive and unimaginative.
I've already long distinguished my character from the WoL who we play in the MSQ, because of how simultaneously too-broad and too-limited their characterization is, how they interact with the narrative, etc. And I'm fine with that, I'm not really complaining; this isn't Pathfinder or Baldur's Gate or even Dragon Age (where at least you get to have the illusion of personality), that's not what we're here for. But indisputably Mary Sue-y elements like being Azem reincarnated -- for no other reason than that it ingratiates or at least elevates the WoL in the eyes of pivotal characters -- something like that makes the story, even on its own merits, less compelling to me. Especially when the WoL is already so painfully exceptional without it that it's practically inconsequential. And outside of the Ancient/Ascian stuff, it is (or has been) inconsequential, which is its one saving grace, while also making it that much more frustrating, imo.
But... c'est la vie, I guess! In light of its context, at least, I assume it won't play too much into future storylines. But it certainly chafed for a hot minute. -
09-14-2023, 11:13 PMClereticWhile for most of ARR I look at the game's story from a general perspective of trying to see where the writers coming from and trying to achieve, and sometimes they might not be making the best choices but are making understandable and workable ones, Azem is the one thing in the entire MSQ that I look at as an outright mistake that they shouldn't have done, down there with the 'reveal' in Heavensward Paladin. And perhaps the worst part is that it's a choice that's only a mistake for FFXIV. Turnininto is right, some level of 'chosen one' narrative is pretty standard for RPGs; I don't have to like it there either, but it's there, and often serves something of a purpose of why this character specifically is doing the cool stuff, or why you can do some resident game mechanic. That doesn't work for MMOs, of course, because you're not the only person in this world.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brightamethyst
Instead, MMOs often go for a subtype of 'chosen people', where instead of you being one special guy, you're one of a collection of people who get some sort of elevated status, usually getting access to some central gameplay conceit like respawns or something, while not necessarily being some great hero of destiny. That's a decent way to say that yes, you're special, but only in the same way everyone else who's playing is; you're more special than the random pedestrian walking down the street, but not more special than the other players on the team with you. That's a pretty solid angle, actually, because it gives you that necessary access to the game's functions and 'special-ness' to say that yes, you are allowed to do all this special stuff, but still leaves your achievements to be your achievements; you didn't slay the dragon because you're the destined dragon-slayer, you slew the dragon because you worked at it, and you're someone who's trained the skills of slaying dragons.
Suddenly turning around and going 'you're the one and only chosen special person, and this was always your destiny' in an MMO is a terrible idea. It invalidates everyone around you, declares all of them to basically just not be canon, and at the same time also takes away from your own accomplishments by implicitly saying 'oh yeah you were always going to do that stuff'. And on a more narrative perspective, they haven't really used Azem in a way that suggests they're anything but a way to declare us to be The Chosen One and connected to Emet-Selch; I'd call it a link to the Ancients as a whole, but they've never used it for that. -
09-15-2023, 12:17 AMIscah
I would be mostly okay with the whole Azem business if they weren't so intent on the "Azem is like you so we will dance around the subject of giving them any solid traits or even a gender" – doubly so when it comes between the very solid and not-you character of Ardbert also having Azem's soul, and Amon not identifying with Hermes despite having the same soul.
From those other cases we can extrapolate:
1. Being a shard of an ancient soul does not guarantee you will physically resemble the original bearer.
2. This is not just a difference between soul-shards from the Source and the reflections.
3. Being a shard does not make you the same person as the original.
So there is no need for Azem to be like our character, except in basic personality. It would be better to make them more of a distinct individual.
On a separate note, I don't particularly feel like I'm the chosen one because of Azem. It's convenient that we have personal connections back to all these plot-important characters but that isn't quite the same thing. -
09-15-2023, 01:28 AMWhiteArchmageWhat irks me is that XIV was already in that direction, since the opening cutscene for ARR where the PC meets Hydaelin is pointed with two other generics going around the crystal receiving the same message. Implying that others are having their own adventures. This is further reinforced with the other adventuring parties around Sastasha, Copperbell, and Tam-Tara, where maybe you were lucky enough that your group DID clear the problem without dying or disbanding. Though the "chosen one" replacing the "chosen many" decision must've come early enough in the game considering the post-ARR patches already start the "super special Warrior of Light" narrative; from there we've had a lot of issues of "well, we'll poke fun that maybe your adventurer friends came on a fishing trip to the far east" and the MANY "which duties are we sure that we did solo/with companions?" threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
It also, like Iscah mentioned, makes Azem themself kinda murky because they're in a weird spot of "we have a canon personality and idea of them and will mention how brave but also scatter-brained and a bit of a trickster they are" and "we can't and won't show or say [i]too[/] much about them because it may go against how players see themselves." Just take a trip through twitter to see just how many "This is my Azem, they're just like me" posts one can find. -
09-15-2023, 01:38 AMBrightamethyst
The chosen one aspect itself doesn't really bother me. We've been the "Warrior of Light, Champion of Hydaelyn, Slayer of Eikons, etc..." since 2.0. As a plot device that's fine, especially since lore wise other players also have the Echo so it's not weird when you team up for primal fights, and such.
My sticking point is specifically with Azem. That feels like Destiny™. Like being the hero was inevitable, instead of being something you chose and worked for (and that's before you throw the Elpis time loop into the mix.) I feel like it limits the story and lessens the WoL as a character. -
09-15-2023, 02:14 AMTurnintino
I would argue that is the "chosen one" aspect. In 2.0, yes, we're chosen by Hydaelyn, but to Cleretic and White's points, we're one of many. And remaining that way would've been preferable.
I agree that the notion of the WoL's exceptionalism is seeded even earlier than 2.x, but at least by that point, you can still try to argue that their accomplishments are their own, based on their own skill, their own merit. Cut to the Azem revelation, though, and suddenly it's all been predestined -- you're not just a cut above the chosen many, you're the chosen ONE. And even in an RPG with linear storytelling like this, the agency that suddenly robs the WoL of is frustrating. Which, to be fair, can be its own source of drama. But the writers aren't interested in allowing the player to rail against the idea in-game, or even to have an opinion to begin with lol. -
09-15-2023, 02:18 AMDenishia
Azem could have been easily tweaked if they tied it to how Hydaelyn’s many chosen were handled and if it used the very common “Inheritor of Will” trope when there is a Chosen One trope in play - to use a manga/anime that should be familiar right now: One Piece. Luffy is not the son of the Pirate King and the Will of D is shared across dozens of seemingly unrelated or at least possibly so distantly related as to be meaningless characters and his eating of the GumGumFruit was accidental. But he embodies the Joyboy spirit/working to fulfill prophecies without aiming too and his aim to be King of Pirates is directly mirroring Roger but that straw hat was passed down by a mentor-mentee chain. Therefore the destiny element of the story is still placed subservient to character choice and agency.
With the WoL inheriting Azem’s power only by the happenstance of birth, it undercuts the player character and also as said weakens the MMO. And because Azem isn’t allowed to be a complete character like Ardbert nor allowed to be a blank slate, it gets the worst of both decisions. What is set in stone is that Azem’s BFFs are two obnoxious characters in that of Hythlodaeus and Emet Selch, and at least for Emet there’s the most unpleasant personality that the game wants to come across as endearing instead of purposefully loathsome. Tsunderes aren’t bad for a character trope but they aren’t a universally loved trope type and Emet fails at making it endearing.
And that the Ancients are untenable as a MMO setting because of the nature of combat job/quest design (see Pandaemonium instantly rebuking the no voluntary peaceful deaths) and the narrowing of the origins of everything while being opaque on any origin or sense of history to the Ancients themselves with a boring shallow monolith of a world setting, and there’s just not a lot of interest or wiggle room for Azem to exist as a character.
And the only point of tying the WoL directly to Azem instead of being gifted a piece of their power or acknowledgment of the WoL as the new type of Azem for this era is because that sharing of soul is the only way that Emet’s bigotry would have an emotional connection to the WoL. It’s not actually necessary for any of the Elpis plot. -
09-15-2023, 03:43 AMIscahTo be fair, we're quite definitely told that Azem is indeed just like you, right down to some degree of appearance. IIRC it's ambiguous whether this is at a physical or aetherial level, but enough people are going to decide-or-interpret it as physical, and it's not like we have anything else to go on. If they share your gender, why not other attributes?Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage
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09-15-2023, 11:04 AMClereticFor minor clarification there: it's not 'right down to appearance' for some. That's the description given if you're hyur or elezen (I think roegadyn but I'd have to check, and I won't). With more beastlike races they don't make that comment, and with lalafel I believe the implication is that you look similar but are way smaller. Our aether's always the same, but our physical appearance might not be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
I think the shared gender is sort of a functional conceit. I've mentioned this in other threads, but Ardbert gets some metatextual help to pass on the 'this is you' message, because he's clearly 'The Trailer WoL'; he has the one static design that actually can be recognized as the WoL. Most of us can immediately recognize that as the reference being made, so when they take that from being a wink-nudge reference in 3.x into the more literal in 5.0, it sells. But Azem doesn't appear in person (and I would argue probably can't for a few reasons), so they need to sell that in a lot of non-physical ways. That means them having the same gender, and it means being described in pretty similar ways to how others would describe us. And they need to sell that approach in every way they can, because if they leave a single way for Azem to be Not Like Us, then people will inevitably reject it through that, and that's the last thing they want.
...which, unfortunately, means that Azem comes off as sort of a 'can do no wrong' perfect figure that everyone loves (except for the one guy we're meant to hate), because they're written too vaguely to have negative character traits. I don't want to describe them as a Mary Sue, because that term's been warped into meaninglessness by certain corners of the internet and doesn't really function for official, canon characters anyway, so I'm instead going to call them a Ferris Bueller. -
09-29-2023, 07:25 AMGrimr
I can see the writing is off kilter for much of the post 6.0 msq quests. It wasn't like shadow bringers at all. Hydalen had her reasons for the sundering. It probably would of end up of running out of sacrifices or aether if they stuck with zodiark's plan. The best choice out of a bad situation. My beef is with the void quests this expansion and the seemingly disconnect on what we know so far about voidsent and thirteenth. From what i have gather the voidsent do not eat each other though maybe diablolos ate scatach. They are only so many of them and aether is a prob on the thirteenth. But that alone is there motivation not restore there mortality. Even if they invanded the source, its going to take more that stealing everyone's aether to restore their mortality.
I truly wish the person that did the blm questline and the void ark raids and questline had done these void adventures.
I think its obvious at this point endwalker was sidelined due to ff16. They got their work cut out for them for dawntrail(lamest name ever) The only good news is the blm questliner is set to do dawntrails msq. So he knows what hes doing. -
09-29-2023, 11:49 AMClereticI have good news! Unfortunately, you're not gonna like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grimr
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10-03-2023, 03:37 AMSilverquick
Yeah I'll be honest with you,
Endwalker was probably the worst of the story expansions. I really just flat out did not enjoy the story much except at small points. There was just sooo much cringe in this one that even went beyond the kind you saw in ARR the original. The Climax was pretty engaging with the ending of the Meteion arc, but... so much in between was either flat out boring or just cringe worthy. And as much as I loved the Shadowbringers expansion, which really had a very mature story... the reality is, it really almost completely re-wrote the Ascians into something they never were or were intended to be. Now they are screwed with the Meteion arc which comes out of nowhere because it was originally supposed to be the Ascians who did those things.
You can clearly see in ARR and Heavensward the Ascians were supposed to be attached to the Void or emptiness. They were the bad guys working with the Voidsent to devour the world. This played itself out in all of the after stories and alliance raids of those two. Hell they even hosed it in the Endwalker where Zodiark actually looks more like a Demon or Voidsent, not some Eikon or Primal created by what was originally in the new story line the "peace loving" Ascians.
Not only did Endwalker hose up the original story... but on top of that it really just wasn't that terribly exciting to play through other than the end run.
I didn't start feeling like I was even playing a Final Fantasy game until the afterstory with the Voidsent.
And even then they still threw in so much cringe it was annoying at times. This constant "need for emotional reinforcement and support" or "rah rah" you can do it stuff was even more overdone in Endwalker as a whole, than it was in the ARR. All it really did was make the many of the important characters look weak and insecure. It's fine to do it on occasion, but god it was almost every other conversation. -
10-05-2023, 04:53 PMShookbeastIf the story goes the way it seems to be pointing - then our characters will probably time travel back to a time before Elpis, meet our Ancient frenemies, and gain the title of Azem. The big twist is that we’ll actually be our Azem - and we’ll get to play a bunch of adventures as “Azem.” I’m cool with this, as our character stays in the driver seat - or something this game deems close enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
Later on we’ll travel back to the future, (explaining our absence during the Sundering), but we’ll probably have to leave some portion of our self behind to become the sundered “Azem” shards. (Or this will literally be the final part of the game and we’ll just reboot on the cart with the twins).
If this is indeed the end-point of the Azem adventure, I kinda dig it - as it centers the story on our character, not some stranger we inherit all our personality from - and the (admittedly limited) decisions we get to make along the way are decisions made by us and us alone. -
11-02-2023, 08:48 AMJooleeThe dialogue has been making me rant at my screen in these last couple of expansions. Lots of repetition of phrases like "I daresay" from different characters and (to support your point), "apologies for the wait" - even coming from Y'shtola, who should never apologise for anything. It feels like it needed a good editor!Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
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11-02-2023, 11:06 AMTurnintinoThe sudden and unusually frequent use of "sally forth" in 6.5 is what I picked up on lol. As in your example, it felt particularly weird coming out of Y'shtola's mouth too, but she felt kind of uncharacteristically twee in 6.5 in general (setting aside the earlier stuff with Drippy, which worked, at the time, precisely because it was unexpected), and I assume that wasn't a localization issue... Maybe just because they were missing the sort of character in that finale's cast who would normally make the kind of quixotic proclamations they felt they needed for the climax to work; I can only guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joolee
That said, I haven't really disliked the 6.x writing over all. In past patch storylines, even if the events were debatably more compelling (Vrtra and Azdaja's plight were enough to make me care, personally), the pace and density of those storylines tended to make the writing feel thinner to me in general -- at least until their threads got picked up later. And 6.x felt pretty consistent with that, imo. Like, I'd argue the post-HW MSQ felt sloppier over all without context at the time, and that was similarly focused on setting up the pieces for a storyline that wouldn't immediately bear fruit despite its relatively tidy conclusion.
I don't think 6.x (or 6.0 for the matter) is the game's best showing in terms of narrative quality, by any stretch, but I'm not doomsaying yet. Knowing what we know about the way EW proper was written makes it easy to point a finger at and go, "Oh, that's why this was questionable to me". And 6.x was stuck between a rock and hard place to begin with, in terms of what the story could be and how they could tell it. But I know the writers are capable of creating stories I enjoy, and I'd argue they've done that more than they've disappointed me yet, even if the disappointments are more recent.
So anyway, I'll worry after Dawntrail. -
11-02-2023, 11:25 AMIscah"Apologies for the wait" is such an automatic polite thing to say when arriving late, on the same basic level as please and thankyou, that I don't know why you would object to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joolee
Y'shtola probably wouldn't ever apologise for her opinions, but that's not the same thing as not being courteous. If the latter is part of Y'shtola's canon portrayal then I have been missing it all this time. -
11-02-2023, 12:16 PMCleretic
Yeah, Y'shtola's absolutely polite, she'd apologize for being unintentionally late. What she wouldn't apologize for is being intentionally rude, because she rarely steps without purpose as far as social interactions go.
If anything Y'shtola strikes me as an 'ask forgiveness instead of permission' sort of person, so perhaps the most surprising thing about that little nugget is that the 'sorry' didn't come with a reason. But, maybe this is grossly overthinking a single line that isn't actually out-of-character, and basically exists so that the cutscene can be framed in the most logistically comfortable way. If the demonstration is only going to begin once everyone is there, and most people in the scene just sorta live there anyway (Vrtra, Estinien, Zero), then it feels better if Y'shtola's the one that they're waiting on rather than ourselves. Especially for the first scene in a patch; if they call us late for that, that just feels like them blaming us for the patch cycle! -
11-12-2023, 09:33 AMDreadCrowI think he's a fantastic villain. I feel he's written in a way that makes you love to hate him; he's arrogant but affable and it's sort of fun to have him around while you wait for the inevitable betrayal. Emet's issue is that it seems a lot of people are really thirsty over him and don't want to admit they want to basically bugger a dude that personally created two totalitarian dictatorships and did planetary genocide about seven times so they bend over backwards trying to argue he's not actually a total monster but actually an unsung hero. They don't want him to the villain he obviously is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
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01-02-2024, 10:54 PMLady_SilvermoonWell a cat boy did travel 200 years into the past with a building full of the most advanced technology ever created by man. That probably helped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufalus
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01-02-2024, 11:00 PMLady_SilvermoonBut in this case you're made of the parts of his murdered friend. It's not like he's saying that to a random person. He's saying it to Frankenstein monsters from his perspective. And the Ancients viewed death as just part of the natural cycle of life. Had he succeeded, the world would be restored and mankind would be able to abide in peace, harmony and happiness. What happens when we're confronted with a being no longer recognizable as human life? A blasphemy or a sin eater? *stab* *stab* That's what.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortex
We're the sineaters of the Ascians' Saga. -
01-02-2024, 11:08 PMLady_SilvermoonIt's not that. It's that he's in the unique fictional case of attempting to reverse a genocide. He's not just killing people for funsies. He's trying to put them back together and end their torment. The sundering is a torture machine and he's trying to break it.Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadCrow
And while yeah, we're well in our rights to fight for our lives. He's well in his rights to try to save his people.
I very much agree with his line, "The victor shall right the tale and the vanquished become it's villain."
Emet-Selch is a Scion of the Ancient world. What he's doing is exactly what the Scions would do if some evil god reduced the human race to ants and we had to squash the lot of them to make them people again. I know this because the blasphemies used to be people, the sin eaters used to be people, the voidsent used to be people. At least Emet-Selch is attempting to restore the people who have been mutilated. We just kill our mutilated brethren and call it day's work. -
01-02-2024, 11:21 PMLady_SilvermoonI loved Endwalker as I played through it. I felt all the feelings I was supposed to feel, when I was supposed to feel them. I even bought into the Ancients deserving to die because they were weak and culturally inferior. And as the new strong superior race we deserved to inherit the star. Emet-Selch was simply mistaken over which race was superior. Turns out, it was us. He was only looking at physical and magical strength, we were superior in spirit (ignoring everything the unsundered endured in their attempt to restore the world, that looks like fortitude to me). Then little by little did the fuzzy feelings fade and the horrible reality of it all trickled in...wait, was my character the direct cause of a genocide? Did an entire species get wiped from existence because I time traveled and impressed mommy goddess? Did Emet-Selch, Lahabrea and Elidibus get tortured for 12k years to make me? Were the calamities by design to create me? Did billions of people die so I could sit here and fish? OH GOD!Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick