A few questions for the BLM mains/enjoyers

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Originally Posted by Post

Can't believe we used to play around a 10 second astral/umbral buff that refreshed when your spell did the DAMAGE, not upon or slightly before the cast bar finished... I guess before Fire 4 it was still among the easiest DPS jobs though.

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The funniest thing is the BLM community constantly says that BLM is the most perfect and best designed class in the game, and collectively squee over every small quality of life change it gets.

Like, don't get me wrong, I think BLM's core is great, but its structure is trash and this continual use of a literal ARR design choice to structure the rotation is so confusing that new players still can't figure out how to properly do its rotation when they get fire 3 and 4.

And yeah, losing AF/UI because of spell travel time was hilarious and stupid. They 'fixed' it fast but never dealt with the underlying problem.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Umbral soul probably doesn't need to be level 10 (I think it's good that BLM starts by transpose juggling and then gets more powerful as the job progresses) but it should at LEAST be pre-70, not getting to use it in ultimate feelsbad, never mind that so much of BLM damage is tied up in Xenoglossy.

I think the 15 second timer is plenty, but I wouldn't mind a "stasis" GCD that basically works like Anatman until you press either Fire III or Blizzard III (or Fire II or Blizzard II I guess) on like a 30-60s cooldown. The Catch™ is that this stasis GCD would need to work even through movement or cutscene triggers, and I don't think Anatman even does that.

So the way I envision it, it would work like a mixture between Anatman and Perfect Balance "finisher" where it locks your current timer and buffs, but ONLY B3/F3 or B2/F2 are lit up to use. If you don't use one of those (applying the fast cast if the AF/UI was level III), then you lose it. And yeah something like 60s CD would probably be fine.

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For existing blm players this sounds fine, but the point of the 20s specifically is geared towards people trying out the job or who are new, make the job a little bit more forgiving which makes people new to the job less frustrated at playing it and feel bad when they miss the 15s timer while keeping it exactly the same for existing blm players, they don't get affected by this at all so win win.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

For existing blm players this sounds fine, but the point of the 20s specifically is geared towards people trying out the job or who are new, make the job a little bit more forgiving which makes people new to the job less frustrated at playing it and feel bad when they miss the 15s timer while keeping it exactly the same for existing blm players, they don't get affected by this at all so win win.

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It would undoubtedly make the entry to BLM easier, but increasing it to 20s would most likely have huge impact to how BLM is played at high level, both pre-Paradox and post-Paradox. Fire IV optimisation and the value of spell speed would change and more lines completely without Fire I (pre-Paradox) and potentially skipping Blizzard IV will exist, using the Paradox gained via Umbral Ice swap in Astral Fire instead. Can also see an increase in Transpose + Sharp Fire III uses to further avoid Blizzard IV / Fire I lines.

At least this is how I see it. Regardless, 20s AF/UI would have a huge impact for both entry level and high level BLM.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

It would undoubtedly make the entry to BLM easier, but increasing it to 20s would most likely have huge impact to how BLM is played at high level, both pre-Paradox and post-Paradox. Fire IV optimisation and the value of spell speed would change and more lines completely without Fire I (pre-Paradox) and potentially skipping Blizzard IV will exist, using the Paradox gained via Umbral Ice swap in Astral Fire instead. Can also see an increase in Transpose + Sharp Fire III uses to further avoid Blizzard IV / Fire I lines.

At least this is how I see it. Regardless, 20s AF/UI would have a huge impact for both entry level and high level BLM.

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Some spitball that comes to mind, but perhaps they could bring sharpcast at a lower level to ease the barrier of entry a little bit? I mean, ultimately it would probably still be used for thundercloud in most contexts, but it still would allow new players to use it on Fire I to reserve a firestarter proc

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Some spitball that comes to mind, but perhaps they could bring sharpcast at a lower level to ease the barrier of entry a little bit? I mean, ultimately it would probably still be used for thundercloud in most contexts, but it still would allow new players to use it on Fire I to reserve a firestarter proc

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Would be completely nonsensical to me. Sharpcast is already Lv54 and before Lv60 when obtaining Fire IV there is basically no decision to be made when using Sharpcast. You use it on Thunder III once and then basically hold it on cooldown using Fire I, which is your main spell until Lv60. You don't even preserve Firestarter at those levels, you actually use each one of them as they are available EXCEPT if you get Firestarter on your final Fire I in your Astral Fire window, then you go one of those lines for optimisation:

• -> Blizzard III -> Blizzard I -> Thunder III (Thundercloud) -> Transpose -> Fire III (Firestarter)
• -> Blizzard III -> (Sharp) Thunder III (hardcast) -> Scathe -> Transpose -> Fire III (Firestarter)
• -> Blizzard III -> Blizzard I -> Scathe -> Transpose -> Fire III (Firestarter) [only if you recently reapplied Thunder III)

What they COULD do is bring the 30s-Sharpcast trait down to baseline since Sharpcast has a 60s recast initially.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Would be completely nonsensical to me. Sharpcast is already Lv54 and before Lv60 when obtaining Fire IV there is basically no decision to be made when using Sharpcast. You use it on Thunder III once and then basically hold it on cooldown using Fire I, which is your main spell until Lv60. You don't even preserve Firestarter at those levels, you actually use each one of them as they are available EXCEPT if you get Firestarter on your final Fire I in your Astral Fire window, then you go one of those lines for optimisation:

• -> Blizzard III -> Blizzard I -> Thunder III (Thundercloud) -> Transpose -> Fire III (Firestarter)
• -> Blizzard III -> (Sharp) Thunder III (hardcast) -> Scathe -> Transpose -> Fire III (Firestarter)
• -> Blizzard III -> Blizzard I -> Scathe -> Transpose -> Fire III (Firestarter) [only if you recently reapplied Thunder III)

What they COULD do is bring the 30s-Sharpcast trait down to baseline since Sharpcast has a 60s recast initially.

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Makes sense. I think Black Mage is perfectly fine as is (I enjoy optimizing and skill-expression even in places it doesn't matter), I was just trying to find a sort of compromise.

Sharpcast being brought down to 30s baseline is something I have thought about while running Black Mage occasionally in roulettes, but then I wonder if it would be truly necessary, which I don't feel it is personally.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Makes sense. I think Black Mage is perfectly fine as is (I enjoy optimizing and skill-expression even in places it doesn't matter), I was just trying to find a sort of compromise.

Sharpcast being brought down to 30s baseline is something I have thought about while running Black Mage occasionally in roulettes, but then I wonder if it would be truly necessary, which I don't feel it is personally.

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Making Sharpcast 30s baseline is something you will start feeling if you do Lv60 and Lv70 EX trials and Savage raids synced for the experience or you doing Ultimate. It would be a huge benefit for the consistency and a fair change given how obscenely powerful Summoner is allowed to be on those levels while having a fraction of hardcasts that BLM does.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

For existing blm players this sounds fine, but the point of the 20s specifically is geared towards people trying out the job or who are new, make the job a little bit more forgiving which makes people new to the job less frustrated at playing it and feel bad when they miss the 15s timer while keeping it exactly the same for existing blm players, they don't get affected by this at all so win win.

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On top of what Reinhardt said about the implications for a 20s timer at endgame, people new to the job presumably will be leveling it from level 1, meaning every spell they do either refreshes the timer or cancels it. I suppose with this in mind I don't see how making the timer longer would be helpful to low level play.. not sure how anyone could go a full 15 seconds without casting a single spell and if they do then their issue is not BLM specific it is the ABC fundamental.

And as an aside, from a "job learning" perspective this is probably the main reason that Fire IV is still level 60 and not 50, for players to get the feel of how refreshing works first.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Makes sense. I think Black Mage is perfectly fine as is (I enjoy optimizing and skill-expression even in places it doesn't matter), I was just trying to find a sort of compromise.

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I agree that BLM actually having rotational optimization and skill expression is a thing that should be protected, however I strongly dislike the mindset that the job (or any job, or ANYthing in the game) is "perfectly fine as-is". We as a playerbase should ALWAYS be pointing out possible unintended quirks and frustrations, letting them decide if it was intended or not, and suggestions for improvement, as we are the people who actually do the stuff regularly.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

On top of what Reinhardt said about the implications for a 20s timer at endgame, people new to the job presumably will be leveling it from level 1, meaning every spell they do either refreshes the timer or cancels it. I suppose with this in mind I don't see how making the timer longer would be helpful to low level play.. not sure how anyone could go a full 15 seconds without casting a single spell and if they do then their issue is not BLM specific it is the ABC fundamental.

And as an aside, from a "job learning" perspective this is probably the main reason that Fire IV is still level 60 and not 50, for players to get the feel of how refreshing works first..

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And yet you still see ice mages, 0 damage healers, keyboardturning tanks, etc etc ...

The majority of mmo players in general aren't good at games, this was a thing back in wow, in gwars, in eso and also in ff14.

And that's ok, you play games to have fun first and foremost, and losing that 15s timer and have to start all over again, isn't fun, and this happens to many people who try out blm, then drop it because of that (and the rotation seem complicated at first glance, but it's really not that bad at all once you practise it a bit.)

You have to stop looking at this from an experienced player pov and try and view it from a beginners or not so good players' perspective, those extra 5s can be a huge help to them to keep having fun.

And yeah it might affect max lvl rotation, but you're still bound by your manapool, once you used font it's basically same as usual.
Who knows, maybe this could lead to an interesting new strat even at max lvl that make blm more rewarding for experienced players and being top dps in the raid.

This is why I wish there was a non content but only job PTR for ff14, do changes like this, let players break the job completely doing this, and if the data is good, implement if, if no find another way, hard to say other wise.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

And yet you still see ice mages, 0 damage healers, keyboardturning tanks, etc etc ...

...You have to stop looking at this from an experienced player pov and try and view it from a beginners or not so good players' perspective, those extra 5s can be a huge help to them to keep having fun...

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I don't think I was able to fully communicate the weight of what I mean when I said missing ABC fundamentals, so let me do so now.

Always Be Casting is of course a pretty intermediate notion, not even really "experienced", but trying to adjust the job to make up for someone not adhering to this fundamental rule for ALL jobs in the game is a flawed idea. If a player is not doing ABCs, the problem is not the job, and no amount of design changes for the job are going to help.

Yes players are going to ice mage or pure heal, but that shouldn't inform the overall design of the class, if not solely because those players don't care about the design of the class.. they just want to spam freeze or whatever. As an aside, a good way to combat something like the ice mage fantasy IMO would actually be to lean into it... make an NPC at the THM guild that basically "swaps" your astral with your umbral, so the class functions exactly the same but backwards (So Blizzard IV is your damage spell, Fire IV gives you Astral hearts, Freeze/Flare inverted, etc.). That purely aesthetic option alone would would probably go SIGNIFICANTLY further than any standard job tweak they could throw (and they would probably FEEL better after being acknowledged, frankly), because again the nature of the issue is not the job, it's the player mentality.


Also on the contrary, we DO have to look at it from an experienced player POV, that experience including trying to grasp how to level when I started playing the game 10 years ago, because jobs cannot be balanced around lower level play if they become broken/ruined at higher level play because of it. As an experienced player I vividly remember the leveling frustrations (in fact they were even worse when I did it, but that's besides the point), and it is from that perspective that suggestions should be made precisely because of experiencing said frustrations, not just saying "screw the newbies".

Please don't take Scathe away. When doing FATEs with other players (especially at low levels), it is really nice having an instant-cast spell that will hit my target before someone else kills it. I also like having a button to click during dungeon pulls while moving. This spell is not obsolete.

I thought the main point of Sharpcast was to give you Firestarter procs when you need to move, especially since you typically use your Firestarter procs as you get them. Am I wrong? I feel like saying "your only real option is using Sharpcast to hold onto a Thundercloud proc" ignores the fact that mechanics exist.

I like the idea of holding up to three charges of Firestarter and Thundercloud, and I would find it helpful to have indicators for them on the job gauge.

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Originally Posted by Zatoh

Please don't take Scathe away. When doing FATEs with other players (especially at low levels), it is really nice having an instant-cast spell that will hit my target before someone else kills it. I also like having a button to click during dungeon pulls while moving. This spell is not obsolete.

I thought the main point of Sharpcast was to give you Firestarter procs when you need to move, especially since you typically use your Firestarter procs as you get them. Am I wrong? I feel like saying "your only real option is using Sharpcast to hold onto a Thundercloud proc" ignores the fact that mechanics exist.

I like the idea of holding up to three charges of Firestarter and Thundercloud, and I would find it helpful to have indicators for them on the job gauge.

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One aspect of higher end optimisation is using sharpcast for a fire 3 proc and then holding that proc throughout your ice phase so you can use paradox ice [instant cast] to weave transpose and then use the f3 proc under af1 for higher potency. There are more nuanced options than just this one but it is a key aspect of optimized blm play.

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Originally Posted by Zatoh

Please don't take Scathe away. When doing FATEs with other players (especially at low levels), it is really nice having an instant-cast spell that will hit my target before someone else kills it. I also like having a button to click during dungeon pulls while moving. This spell is not obsolete.

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I agree that Scathe being the exact same spell that it was 10 years ago doesn't feel great, but I cannot emphasize how much I agree with THIS kind of sentiment right here.

Scathe HAS its uses, and they may be closer to niche than not-niche but they are still gains. If you're not using scathe in dungeons as an execute (last button before a mob dies when you otherwise couldn't get another full cast off), or just before boss downtime as the same, then you are missing optimization. Hopefully though it goes without saying that fights are situational, and if you have something like a xeno or a firestarter or thundercloud (or even transpose > ice paradox), then those should be prioritized at those levels given the scenario, but I use scathe literally every day like this, and everyone probably should.


I don't think scathe really needs fixed that badly (or more accurately, I don't think it deserves to be high on the priority list of things to be addressed for the class), but if I were to fix it, I would probably make the double potency thing just be passive in astral fire instead of 20% chance thing, and reduce its MP cost to 400 like Thunder, so using a single scathe in a fire phase if you REALLY needed to would not cost you a Fire IV from a standard rotation MP perspective. HOWEVER, I understand them being hesitant to give ANY buff to scathe, because they don't want scathe mages either (otherwise I might suggest the six-sided star treatment).

Something I'd like to see added to all damage-over-time spell descriptions is their potency if kept for the full duration. This is extra true for BLM because the single-target and multi-target thunder DoTs have different potencies and do not stack with each other. This is also extra true due to how Thundercloud works. Answering the question of "will using my Thundercloud proc do more damage than casting Fire?" should not require me to do a math problem and somehow glean the tribal knowledge that DoTs hit every three seconds. (I would also need to somehow know the size of my Astral Fire boost.)

Relatedly, it would be nice if the descriptions of fire spells included their potencies with Astral Fire 1, 2, and 3. I think one of the reasons people find Black Mage difficult to learn, and also one of the reasons there are ice mages, is that this information is not easily-accessible. Reading the spell descriptions, it looks like Blizzard and Fire have the same potency.

The total DOT potency I think would be iffy because server ticks determines that sometimes, and then invuln mechanics happen, so might be disingenuous, though I agree that there should be a more sanctioned and straightforward way that the player learns about how DOT ticks really work in game.

I never really thought about listing a "total potency" for skills based on Astral Fire though now that you're saying it out loud it doesn't seem like a bad idea... perhaps SE thinks it has something to do with "researching" your class from a fantasy perspective, maybe. Which feels ok I suppose but I'm not married to it (again, fantasy/lore should NEVER be prioritized over accessibility/user experience).

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Originally Posted by Llugen

The total DOT potency I think would be iffy

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An estimate would work well enough, and I think calling it an "estimated total potency" would be acceptable. I am glad we have potencies at all for helping compare actions, but the provided potencies for DoTs are not particularly useful without further context (and honestly make DoTs look terrible to the casual observer, despite the opposite being true).

For anything that deals damage or heals over time, why not simply something like:

Potency: 75 every 3s
Duration: 21s

I would like to see an increase to the aoe range of our aoe's. 5 yalms is just too small. In a group of trash mobs with a couple of big guys, I usually can't get all the mobs in the blast range. WHM holy is 8 yalms, please make blm's the same.

Only time Mao uses Scathe anymores is when Hunts Trains get so big that Mao needs use insta-cast spell to tag A-Rank before it dies.

With the recent buffs I think BLM is ideal shape. The main problems with FFXIV combat have nothing to do with the job for me. I see lots of problems with many other jobs and the combat in general.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

With the recent buffs I think BLM is ideal shape. The main problems with FFXIV combat have nothing to do with the job for me. I see lots of problems with many other jobs and the combat in general.

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Mm, by the numbers, including class use rates both in savage/ultimates and outside, BLM is in anything but ideal shape.

There's only 1 class less played than Black Mage right now, and it's nowhere close to ideal. Or, to put it another way, they made BLM the literal best DPS class in the game and people still aren't playing it. That should say a lot about the state the class is actually in.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Mm, by the numbers, including class use rates both in savage/ultimates and outside, BLM is in anything but ideal shape.

There's only 1 class less played than Black Mage right now, and it's nowhere close to ideal. Or, to put it another way, they made BLM the literal best DPS class in the game and people still aren't playing it. That should say a lot about the state the class is actually in.

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It's in the state of sharing a dps slot with the Caster that you can teach a lab rat to play that still produces acceptable DPS numbers at lv90 and borderline broken numbers below 80.

The reason why BLM is in such a state is because people will go the path of least resistence when having to learn a Caster job by choosing the Caster that essentially doesn't cast.

If melee wasnt so dominant that you do double melee or bust AND if Summoner wasn't disrespecting the role by essentially being a physical Ranged DPS in caster gear and actually had a modicum of casting let alone skill requirement, you'd see a better balance between Caster jobs. It would also help if they axed Resurrection and Verraise since that heavily skews reason to pick the other two over Black Mage.

BLM has issues, but none of them big enough to be "the reason" why participation is low.

I don't think both of your comments are really mutually exclusive.

I find the case of BRD a lot more puzzling myself tbh. rPhys also has the same issue of job representation with DNC that gets similar ludicrous ratios, but fortunately MCH and BRD don't fare better on numbers, unlike BLM (so imagine that job without an edge there, that would be something to watch on caster job representation, or the other way around, if MCH or BRD was doing significantly more damage, you'd see a lot less DNC players).

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Originally Posted by Valence

I don't think both of your comments are really mutually exclusive.

I find the case of BRD a lot more puzzling myself tbh. rPhys also has the same issue of job representation with DNC that gets similar ludicrous ratios, but fortunately MCH and BRD don't fare better on numbers, unlike BLM (so imagine that job without an edge there, that would be something to watch on caster job representation, or the other way around, if MCH or BRD was doing significantly more damage, you'd see a lot less DNC players).

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Actually I heard that relative to before the addition + recent buffs, Machinist is now actually picked a fair bit more. While not surpassing Dancer, the re-addition of Dismantle to offer a 2nd defensive raid utility and the most recent damage buffs have made Machinist see more play. Or at least I got told so, feel free to verify it.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

It's in the state of sharing a dps slot with the Caster that you can teach a lab rat to play that still produces acceptable DPS numbers at lv90 and borderline broken numbers below 80.

The reason why BLM is in such a state is because people will go the path of least resistence when having to learn a Caster job by choosing the Caster that essentially doesn't cast.

If melee wasnt so dominant that you do double melee or bust AND if Summoner wasn't disrespecting the role by essentially being a physical Ranged DPS in caster gear and actually had a modicum of casting let alone skill requirement, you'd see a better balance between Caster jobs. It would also help if they axed Resurrection and Verraise since that heavily skews reason to pick the other two over Black Mage.

BLM has issues, but none of them big enough to be "the reason" why participation is low.

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This would only be true if people didn't regularly also play jobs that were hard. Samurai is not an easy class to play but is overwhelmingly the most popular melee. Back in stormblood, when it was arguably the hardest DPS class to play (tied with BLM,) it was also overwhelmingly the most positive.

By the end-cycle of a patch, parse groups tend to bias higher-DPS jobs because bored people like getting big numbers. Classes people favor for parsing tend to be used a lot more. We're not seeing jumps in play rates of BLM, like we did in Shadowbringers. The class is, simply, not being chosen or played right now except by the few die hards. It's not as dire as Machinist during stormblood as it's hard to break a class that badly, but it is very reminiscent of Machinist in Stormblood in that something is fundamentally broken.

It being hard doesn't explain people not playing it, since even with the requirement of being hard, people still played it in savage in SB and ShB. Hell, I saw it even in HW when its gameplay could best be described as broken by design.

The only thing that accurately describes the play rate of BLM is that the class doesn't fit the game the devs are making. The reason why I further bring this up is because both BLM and RDM have seen massive drops in play rates going from ShB into EW. And you can't use the argument that RDM is somehow a hard class to play, because it's truly not.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Actually I heard that relative to before the addition + recent buffs, Machinist is now actually picked a fair bit more. While not surpassing Dancer, the re-addition of Dismantle to offer a 2nd defensive raid utility and the most recent damage buffs have made Machinist see more play. Or at least I got told so, feel free to verify it.

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Bard and Dancer used to be played more than machinist. When MCH got buffed in...6.4 I think? the numbers jumbled around and people abandoned bard. There's probably a good argument that if Bard, Machinist, and Dancer were buffed to rDPS numbers similar to summoner/black mage, they'd all be played more than RDM/BLM. People do have a tendency to chase numbers, and only start to avoid classes with good numbers if they play particularly terribly, such as with Black mage.

Bard definitely plays badly, but it's not bad enough for people to avoid playing it in my eyes, especially since its gameplay is closest to WoW's general DPS design, so there's a lot of overlap for people who love priority-based rotations. It needs refinement, but I don't think it needs much. Black Mage, on the other hand, is designed for a game the devs stopped making in late shadowbringers, but also has deep-seeded problems in class design that are depressing the numbers more than, simply, the high-movement meta by itself would account for.

For a class everyone says has more movement than red mage, it's played a lot less.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

For a class everyone says has more movement than red mage, it's played a lot less.

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Reasons people pick Red Mage over Black Mage:

• Verraise
• Melee burst phases to mix up caster gameplay
• It's an easier gameplay loop than BLM to learn
• Did I mention Verraise yet?
• Shortcast + Dualcast + Accel is easier to manage for many than BLM's CD and proc management for movement, even if it might be less total
• Maybe they just like the aesthetic more
• No, seriously - Verraise matters for this

BLM has more/better mobility when it matters. RDM has more perceived mobility, i.e. has overall good mobility but can't bank 9+ instants in a row like BLM or use teammates / their Leylines as anchor points for dashes.

Really, BLM isn't this crazy difficult job some pretend it to be, there is just a lot of other things skewing it.

Verraise isn't even really picked anymore because everything's a body check. No, really. Everything is a body check.

And, you missed my point. Red Mage went from the most played caster outright to barely played more than black mage. People abandoned it for this expansion as well.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Verraise isn't even really picked anymore because everything's a body check. No, really. Everything is a body check.

And, you missed my point. Red Mage went from the most played caster outright to barely played more than black mage. People abandoned it for this expansion as well.

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Well... Summoner. Don't what to tell you except the comment I made about Summoner in my first response to you.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Well... Summoner. Don't what to tell you except the comment I made about Summoner in my first response to you.

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And I would say that in a world where raising isn't that important, what summoner brings to the table is the only caster DPS in the entire game designed to play in the fights the devs are actually designing.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

And I would say that in a world where raising isn't that important, what summoner brings to the table is the only caster DPS in the entire game designed to play in the fights the devs are actually designing.

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You mean the only "Caster" DPS that pretends to be a Caster when it isn't anymore? The original challenge about Casters was finding good windows and spots to cast, pre-positioning was their niche where melee had positionals and Physical Ranged were the movement gods. Summoner is an outlier that should be purged, not a baseline that should be adopted for the other casters.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

...Or, to put it another way, they made BLM the literal best DPS class in the game and people still aren't playing it...

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The primary issue with BLM in this way is that it takes A LOT more work to play it at its best than other jobs require. An exceptional BLM can outdamage an exceptional SAM by a slightly-too-small margin, but has to do MUCH more work and generally adapt entire party strats around it (I'm looking at you Bonds 1 and Superchain 1) to do so. Meanwhile, a "good" SAM will outdamage a "good" BLM pretty much every time. I appreciate that there can be cool and niche speedkilling BLM strats on some level, but they are inaccessible to 99.9% of the playerbase, and that is not well thought-out. Throw the uncertainty of PUG life/PF strats into the mix, and of course you're not going to get a high percentage of players going for the class with high work and risk with proportionally little reward.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

...If melee wasnt so dominant that you do double melee or bust AND if Summoner wasn't disrespecting the role by essentially being a physical Ranged DPS in caster gear and actually had a modicum of casting let alone skill requirement, you'd see a better balance between Caster jobs...

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Big agree, SAM unironically has more casts per minute than SMN does. And as an aside, I also agree they should probably remove verraise and resurrection and should just make raise a kind of "duty action" that has a big cooldown like 60-120s, so if both healers down the group isn't SCREWED but you can't spam it. Or they could just suck it up and give BLM some kind of access to raise already, because for the sake of the role it is important that it has access to the things the others in the role have. Maybe just like a 60s cooldown that costs all your mana or something crappy so you don't WANT to use it but it's better than wiping if healer(s) dead. And remember, Fantasy/Lore™ should never ever outweigh actual game mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

...And you can't use the argument that RDM is somehow a hard class to play, because it's truly not.

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Don't even get me started about scorch and resolution. Can't wait for them to add a third in DT.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

...what summoner brings to the table is the only caster DPS in the entire game designed to play in the fights the devs are actually designing.

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I half agree with this. BLM at 90 has the tools to deal with the heavy movement mechanics like Bonds 3, LOTL/Shadowed Messengers, Archaic Rockbreaker, etc. but it doesn't feel good... they keep buffing Xenoglossy damage which is fine but the cognitive dissonance is palpable when you don't actually get to USE your big damage spell charges in buff windows- you have to save them for movement, and then Manafont drifts because it also is poorly designed at the moment (see other thread/below).

I fully agree that the virtually castless design of SMN right now does not feel right. The FANTASY of the class is downright fantastic, and they nailed the rotation so well in fact that it's... boring (a FAR cry from SMN in literally any other iteration). Hopefully 7.0 will bring about changes that will add more actual casts, such as after phoenix you get Leviathan/Ramuh/Shiva and those have more cast time oriented spells, etc. But all this aside, I am less concerned about it because an exceptional SMN (if there even really is such a thing anymore lol) is still pretty considerably behind even a "good" BLM. I am slightly nervous about potential rebalancing in 6.5 that may change my view on this, but for now it is reasonable.



But getting back to what should actually change on BLM:


-I would like to see something more interesting done with Thunder. Years ago now I suggested that Thunder should be additive to 60s on the boss (like death's design), I might throw that out again as a potential thought, that way fewer ticks are lost.

-I also still really want to see Thundercloud and Firestarter stored on the job gauge and stack up to 3. This is far overdue, and we are ready. This would also be great for vets and new players alike because then you new players don't get as punished for overwriting their firestarter at level 50 (and movement can be better planned ahead this way, frankly) and vets can strategize better as well.

-I said before in this thread that I DON'T want a 2 minute "nuke ready" buff, but it would be nice to have at least something for opener burst damage on the job... getting unlucky with crits and then watching it take 90 full seconds for me to hit 2nd/3rd on enmity list feels real bad for a "high damage" class (basically no reason to play BLM in hunt trains unless they're taking 90+ seconds to die when you can press like 5 buttons on SMN and profit).

-An "Astral Stasis" button like Meditate as mentioned previously in this thread would be nice as well, maybe it also charges Polyglot faster somehow (think like Shoha).

-I'm still a big sucker for Between the Lines movement strategies (think Sepulture racecar knockback saves), so BtL resetting the recast timer on Aetherial Manipulation would also really cool, and valuable in high movement/precise moments (once again looking at you, Superchain 1).

-A summarization from my other thread, but Manafont should be a "buff" like Excogitation, granting you the MP when you hit zero, to reduce drift and frontload off-GCD pressing. Again see other thread.

-Agree with whoever said the range of BLM AOE spells should probably increase.. doesn't need to be MASSIVE massive but maybe 7-8y instead of 5y, might help make dungeon optimization slightly more accessible to newer players.

-See earlier posts for potential changes to leveling rotations (pre-despair, the manafont change, etc)

-I am hesitant to touch Blizzard III because I do think it is interesting that the class has non-standard gameplay options, but if the devs decide that they don't like this, then Blizzard III out of Astral at 0 MP could give some kind of like... stacks of "Sheer Ice" or something that makes it so your ice Paradox and Blizzard IV (or maybe just the next 3 spells while ice phase is active or something) get increased potency to discourage transpose.

-They could also make the MP regen from Umbral Ice no longer tied to the server tick, as it really should be at this point honestly, so that way we never have to sweat bad MP ticks.

-Kind of minor and pissy but why is Manaward a 2 minute CD while Radiant Aegis gets TWO charges and another per MINUTE while also lasting TEN seconds longer...?




Things I DON'T want for BLM:


-2 minute "nuke ready" a la ogi namikiri/starfall dance

-a second charge of manafont as it currently stands, or like another sharpcast charge or something (lol)

-another increase to Enochian's damage percent increase (so boring)

I fondly remember the thread about BLM dps and how many raiders told me that BLM could never be top DPS because it would break the game. Pretty funny to see nothing is broken and the class isn't experiencing any kind of notable uptick. It's almost like BLM being high DPS makes total sense given that it's a selfish DPS with the kind of gameplay it has. Happy to see devs agreed with the feedback despite me and others getting absolutely roasted.

People get really sweaty about the fact blm has no raise and so can't cover for their mistakes in prog. It's a them problem not a blm problem. Caster res is a bribe.

Fix MP ticks either show me them or 0 them until I get into UI idk just fix them, otherwise BLM fine BLM borderline too strong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OgruMogru

...It's a them problem not a blm problem. Caster res is a bribe.

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I would agree with this, except that I'm the one who gets to wipe my incredible run because the healers ate shit and I can't do anything to save them, and everyone sighs wishing there was a RDM/SMN. If raise is something that the role is expected to do, then BLM deserves access to it, period.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alex1337

...otherwise BLM fine BLM borderline too strong.

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Sorry for the salt, but spoken like a true SAM main who continues to benefit from melee uptime META (which is correct, but not the point) and pretty much dominates dance partner, and who nobody has any qualms with taking in their party since they don't need any specific strats and their role isn't responsible for back-up raise.

The amount more work that BLM is than SAM demands that it be stronger, and by a larger margin than it currently is, doubly so when it demands changing entire strats to accommodate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I would agree with this, except that I'm the one who gets to wipe my incredible run because the healers ate shit and I can't do anything to save them, and everyone sighs wishing there was a RDM/SMN. If raise is something that the role is expected to do, then BLM deserves access to it, period.




Sorry for the salt, but spoken like a true SAM main who continues to benefit from melee uptime META (which is correct, but not the point) and pretty much dominates dance partner, and who nobody has any qualms with taking in their party since they don't need any specific strats and their role isn't responsible for back-up raise.

The amount more work that BLM is than SAM demands that it be stronger, and by a larger margin than it currently is, doubly so when it demands changing entire strats to accommodate.

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You checked my profile and saw most of my clears are on SAM, did you also see that I play plenty of BLM? Albeit not that much this tier. I see 0 SAM ones on yours to make the sweeping statement that BLM needs far more work than SAM, i'm not saying its not true, because by in large it definitely does I'm just saying I have a basis to compare and it would appear you, well, don't, I, however, am also no professional at either job i just press buttons. Looking at YOUR profile it would also seem like you play bog standard BLM, i'm not sure if that's what you mean by more work? Having to do P12 door boss para 1 behind the tanks if clones end up south? Having to either preposition your LL on P10 bonds 1 or line it with the bridge so you ibtl? NOT stacking with the group for light tether on p11? None of that is particularly complicated, lets not act like you need a phd to do any of those things. And, not to be salty myself but using transpose lines and a bit of foresight can really help with movement. If we're talking rotation, the 'standard' BLM rotation isn't exactly rocket science.

I just think the 6.4 buff was tone deaf and over the top and just widened the gap by far too much undermining both SMN and RDM massively, I know a large number of the game's BLM populus won't agree though which is fine and, I'm not interested in how that compares to SAM or any melee for that matter I think if you were going to buff BLM by ANOTHER 3% in 6.4, the same should have been true for the other 2 casters. I also heavily disagree that the gap should be wider than it currently is, its already very wide that's just some 'my job should always be stronger' cope, there's literally no objectivity in that statement and just indicative of someone who plays 1 job and 1 job only in a game where there's like a million(-999981). But who knows maybe you will tell me this is your alt or something, the perfect line.

Partner domination is an entirely different conversation, for BLM to get within top 3 prio, they would HAVE to give them damaging ogcds and foolproof looping rotation which they do not currently have either of because they simply wouldnt work outside triplecast or a UI phase (former), which you wouldnt want to be in during devilment. BLM simply doesn't benefit from devilment as much as Melee that have ogcds every other gcd and basically loop perfectly every 2 min, if they wanted BLM to be a viable partner too much of their kit would need to change or too much of others jobs' would.

Regarding your comment of 'qualms', I have never had any issue with joining a random group as BLM, is that an NA thing?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Llugen

I would agree with this, except that I'm the one who gets to wipe my incredible run because the healers ate shit and I can't do anything to save them, and everyone sighs wishing there was a RDM/SMN. If raise is something that the role is expected to do, then BLM deserves access to it, period.

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In that case it was the healer's fault not yours so you framing it as *you* causing the wipe is silly. SC1 leylines and bonds leylines really don't require that much effort to accommodate and I feel like the main reason people are so unwilling to cooperate with BLMs is because there's a bit of simmering resentment that they aren't playing a job that can fix other people's mistakes. No caster should have a raise. If anything the "caster" res should be a long cooldown ogcd skill that you have to apply before a player takes lethal damage, like excog but it still applies weakness, but even then I only think that's appropriate for smn with their phoenix kit. I also think blms should be shifted into taking a melee spot by default because this solves so many of their uptime/movement problems. I admit I always get a real smug sense of satisfaction if I get a dnc partner in content but at optimal play it really is better used on other classes for all the reasons Alex said. Constant goalpost moving and pretending all the concern is about helping new and less confident Blm players and then lo' and behold the issue is actually just pure insecurity because no one will dance with you.

What I love the most in those discussions is how it mirrors perfectly real life conditions. People would rather fight each other between roles, arguing that theirs is harder to play and therefore deserve more damage or whatever, than band up together to face the devs in order to have some kind of unified balance.

Welcome to life as a Warrior, we really should be working to make the game better rather than have a contest of whose better but god forbid you say something without being labeled as "having it better" and somehow being labeled as a gatekeeper.
It comes in waves with some classes with bad patches and good patches, some just never get those real good patches though which should be addressed, but getting people to be as unified as the Samurai's with Kaiten is about as likely as Kaiten coming back soon(I wish it would).