Agreed. But...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mekhana
No, that's how you get a cluster**** of homogenized power-creep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mekhana
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07-31-2023, 07:55 AMShurrikhan
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07-31-2023, 08:55 AMLyth
It seems like the word 'homogenization' always gets trotted out as a way of stifling opposition to the status quo. At the very minimum, 'homogenization' is better than 'unbalanced', so you feel that it's impossible to make skills both unique and fair, then it's well within players' rights to at least demand fairness. Nobody wants to play a uniquely bad job.
Balance is mandatory to ensure that diverse playstyles can exist in the first place, otherwise everyone migrates over to the same job. Build your creativity from a point of fairness. -
07-31-2023, 09:43 AMShurrikhanSure, but that requires neither among (A) purposely ignoring gameplay in the pursuit of that capacity nor (B) literally never stopping requests even after you're already balanced/ahead, as was suggested in what I was replying to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
The first is how you get increased homogeneity; the second is how you get power-creep that leaves role-balance out of whack. -
07-31-2023, 12:56 PMOizenWell Endwalker was a very homogenized expansion, and also not a very well balanced one so we're living in the worst of both worlds here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
I also disagree, the game could stomache worse balance if it meant moving away from the homogenized slog it has become, Anabaseios seemed to be designed as a hard reaction to the fuckup of the damage checks of Abyssos, we honestly could push this further and make damage checks even more lenient if the devs are struggling that hard to even balance what the game has become now. To be honest the issue I'm seeing is that SE isn't putting a lot of effort into this front, especially when it comes to understanding the core of what makes a job, or why it may be meta or not.
The latest balance changes we saw were definitely a reaction to the numbers put out by TOP, hence why WAR got such an insane buff, DRK didn't get anything and the others got buffed as well. Well the reason for that is theres an exploit you can do to put out way more damage than intended as DRK in that fight specifically. The devs ignored this as they likely just reacted to the numbers, and now DRK's output has fallen behind a bit because the devs didn't bother to look into this. No this isn't crying for DRK damage potency buffs, this is pointing out how I don't think the devs particularly try when it comes to balancing jobs, and they haven't been trying for a while. -
07-31-2023, 04:15 PMLyth
This depends on where you think the balance issue is. If you're talking about damage output, then you can say with confidence that they're playing closer attention to damage values than they have been previously (i.e. WAR doesn't have a 500 rDPS advantage, like it has had in previous expansions), and the decisions are not random (even if we could debate around the philosophy behind them). DPS jobs very clearly are set up such that melee and BLM all have similar rDPS to each other, and the remaining ranged jobs have similar rdps to each other (again, design direction debate for another thread). They very clearly are capable of tweaking potencies such that 6+ jobs with different gameplay mechanics are within 100 dps of each other if they want to, so this is not an impossible dream.
Tanks used to have very similar rDPS values during Abyssos, but then WAR mains kept maintaining that tank balance should be done on the basis of aDPS instead because they couldn't tolerate a 50 rDPS disadvantage. Unsurprisingly, now WAR has both an aDPS and rDPS advantage. Abyssos was a silly tier to be doing an aDPS comparison in anyways because of Everburn, but this forum was loud on the subject when it counted. So if the tank numerical balance looks bizarre now compared to every other role, at least now you know why the balance was thrown out the window for tanks specifically. If it bothers you now, know that you could have easily objected to these arguments when the debate was actually happening. I did.
The funny thing is that the balance issues on DRK from the start of the expansion actually had nothing to do with damage numbers. They just become obvious when you take away the last thing the job had going for it. And given that expansion launches are when non-numerical balance is looked at, this is the time to get it fixed. Why is it acceptable for Shake and Veil to be so much more powerful than Missionary and HoL? If we can't come up with unique alternatives, that's fine, get rid of Dark Missionary and turn it into Dark Shake. I assure you I won't shed a tear. Oh no, power creep? That's fine, get rid of Shake, Veil, PoA, Missionary, and HoL. We supposedly took away Reprisal from DRK because it was supposed to fulfil a raidwide mitigation function across the entire role, right? Why do we need all these other layers to it? If you're unable in identifying a creative solution to this problem, at least provide a fair one.
Self-sustain is another obvious one. There are many creative ways you can do self-sustain without homogenization. You can heal yourself. You could regenerate. You could have timed lifesteal. You could absorb damage and turn it into HP. You could reverse time to a previous HP state. But lets say for the sake of the argument that you're not a particularly creative person, and you only know how to create one type of self-sustaining tank. That's fine. Homogenize it then. Or get rid of self-sustain altogether if 'power creep' bothers you. But don't use the excuse of 'we only know how to create this one flavor of advantage, so that's why WAR is the only one that has it'. Fairness comes first. And if you're able to be both creative and fair, even better. -
07-31-2023, 04:53 PMShurrikhan
Agreed on the most of the rest, but...
All buffs-less jobs' damage should be balanced on the basis of aDPS rather than rDPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
Two jobs with equal rDPS could easily vary in how much damage they actually bring to a team on the basis of how well they exploit raid buffs / team synergies. Yes, that advantage will at least appear on someone else's bars in a given party, but that is useless when comparing jobs against jobs, not an 8-man composition against the same with that single job swapped (to the same effect, but of no practical use to anyone).
I don't know why you keep trying to pretend that being better able to produce more DPS for your party shouldn't count just because that margin comes from how well one can exploit raid buffs. All jobs with any degree of rDPS buffs ought to be balanced with an eye on both their rDPS and aDPS. It's a unique property of those without any buffs, though, that you only need to look at one graph for their variance.
(Don't give me the "but aDPS depends on one's composition" BS again; every buffers' rDPS value also depends on its composition and yet we don't discount their metrics. Why? Because it's a team game; we don't balance jobs around solo play. So why would we remove the quantifiable differences in output from team synergy from our comparisons?)
The problem wasn't that WARs asked that balance look at the metric that actually includes all the damage a buffs-less job brings to the table instead of one that purposely excludes a large portion of it and ignores that we play a team-game and that jobs should be balanced accordingly.
The problem was that they asked for damage parity despite already being superior in terms of sustain (combined healing+mitigation) and features (the value of SiO over the likes of Veil or HoL/DM, IR's KB-immunity, etc.), which would then make them objectively OP overall even if the devs' hadn't slightly overshot that damage buff and put them above mere parity even there, too. -
07-31-2023, 06:58 PMvetchIn current-tier Savage/Ultimate raiding, maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
In the other 95% of the game? No, I want fun jobs with satisfying gameplay even at the cost of numbers parity. -
07-31-2023, 07:07 PMGoatOfWarWelp, Warrior is an upgrade over Dark knight now. It does everything better.Quote:
Originally Posted by vetch
Can't say knowing i'm playing an objectively inferior, and therefore the incorrect job makes the game particularly enjoyable or satisfying. -
07-31-2023, 07:18 PMSupersnow845
I like savage, I like progging it and I like spending time in it
I would still return to HW balance to get HW classes back even if it’s for casual content (the worst example of balance in HW wasn’t even class balance it was them trying to have magic and physical tanks)
Like think in causal content you have 1 healer, because they are all the same, you have 1.5 tanks depending on how many buttons you want to press for literally the same result and you have like 5 DPS designs (melee+MCH, DNC, BRD, BLM and RDM (SMN is a healer)), give me a reason to want to play more than 1 class in each role and I’ll take my main being 5% weaker than others in its class every other patch -
07-31-2023, 08:44 PMvetchCan't speak to that since I'm talking about fun jobs, not Dark Knight.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatOfWar
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07-31-2023, 08:57 PMGoatOfWarWell, judging off of your post history i can see that you play Warrior, which plays very similar to Dark knight but is just stronger arbitrarily.Quote:
Originally Posted by vetch
We have an equivalent for almost all of your buttons just lower potency and without the extra bonus effects, but with extra ogcd's we weave on top.
So i'm inclined to believe your original point is moot and you just enjoy jobs that are better.
But please, do proceed to tell me how 123 fellcleave is more fun than 123 bloodspiller. -
07-31-2023, 09:32 PMShurrikhan???Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatOfWar
The dude said nothing about Warrior, only (A) that he'd rather not sacrifice fun gameplay for a brief turn at being Flavor-of-the-Patch and (B) that current DRK is not fun to him.
Or are you honestly of the opinion that a transient place as top aDPS was worth turning DRK into a WAR-clone? -
07-31-2023, 10:00 PMGoatOfWarI mean if we're going to say that a job is not fun and be dismissive about it in a balance disccusion at that, then yeah, i'm going to make a point out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
But no, i'm not advocating that Drk should become more like War. I want balance, but Warrior is currently better at everything.
Dark knight as of now is just Warrior but with extra steps and is strictly worse at everything. Our damage is lower, our sustain is lower, our utility is weaker and even our invuln is worse.
It's not like with the healers where some have different abilities that provide things others can not provide.
Like scholar having access to a party wide sprint, a raid buff or a fairy that will heal you even when you're cc'd. Or Ast with it's neat buffs and sage with it's instant casts and personal mobility.
Tanks as they are now are so painfully similar that there isn't really reason for Dark knight to exist. It's sustain is lacking compared to the rest, it's damage is no longer ahead, it's party wide is tied for the worst with Gnb, and it has no unique utility to make up for that gap. So i am advocating for changes in either way, really. I'd prefer Warrior nerfs if anything because it should be taxed for it's kit like paladin still is, or it should lose the bells and whistles so that it's damage is warranted. I'd also be okay with Dark knight receiving unique utility, but for now it doesn't have any. Another change i'd be interested in seeing is all tanks except for Drk losing Reprisal and perhaps a general nerf to sustain. But i highly doubt we'll see that.
More likely, they'll streamline the game further and just copy and paste War's sustain to other tanks so that they don't have to offend the streamers that play War.
War currently does everything. The only way they can balance the tanks is by either letting the other tanks do everything as well, (Homogenisation) Give them tools that War doesn't have, or they need to start taking tools away.
Choose your poison i guess. -
08-01-2023, 01:10 AMOizenDRK had already been considered a war-clone for 2 expansions by the time that happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
The thing that changed was the emphasis on the 2m meta, and it just so happens that designing the entire game like that overly rewarded DRK's high number of oGCDs, I really don't think anything done here has been intentional.
It is increasingly strange to me that a PLD/DRK/GNB skill be written like:Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatOfWar
-Reduce Damage by 20%
CD: 90
But a WAR skill will be written like:
-Reduce Damage by 20%
-Additional Effect: Cure Potency 600
-Additional Effect: Gradually Restores HP
-Cure potency: 200
-Duration: 15s
CD: 90 -
08-01-2023, 05:11 AMvetchThis is what I'm saying. Give jobs better gameplay loops and job fantasy, and balance concerns start to recede into the background.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoatOfWar
I leveled DRK once on my free trial account, around patch 5.4 or so. If it had had fun core gameplay instead of just being 'Greatsword Warrior with forgettable oGCD spam', I might be playing it on this account too. Having worse mits and poorer aDPS at endgame did not even enter into the decision not to unlock it again. The job wasn't fun.
I wish I could go back and try the Heavensward DRK that people post about.
It should be the nerfs, because 'does the most DPS but has no real flavor or gameplay loop' isn't a valid job fantasy.Quote:
I'd prefer Warrior nerfs if anything because it should be taxed for it's kit like paladin still is, or it should lose the bells and whistles so that it's damage is warranted.
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08-01-2023, 07:11 AMShurrikhanBut that's still within the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
If the idea, as Mekhana put it, should be to "never to look a gift horse in the mouth," that means that we ought not critique or analyze any state favorable to the job, even if it leaves us feeling like we have less to do overall (all meaningful action consigned to 15s per 120s), or would copy over Inner Release into ShB Delirium in giving DRK its "buff" relative to StB, etc., etc.
Imo, though, we should analyze them and critique as necessary. When we got a state better able to exploit the 2-minute cycles by having so many perfectly 60s or 120s CDs, it was good that many were asking, too, what the price of that was to our gameplay and how that advantage might stymy other capacities. When we had Delirium "buffed" by being turned into Inner Release in ShB, it was good that so many said, "No, this is now somehow even worse. Try again."
Throughput alone should never be an acceptable replacement for gameplay. We can ask for both parity and an enjoyable identity.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by vetch
Though, that's mostly just because every fight in XIV is to reduce a unit's HP to zero and that gear upgrades increasingly reduce the relevance of all but damage, making it so that "identity" would at best be the default 90% of the time, rather than an actual compromise that affects how the party plays.
Otherwise, I'd just say it's a problematic and shallow one, but still potentially "valid", much like a tank capable of especially high self-healing or a tank with especially high external support -- shallow, but... not an inherently flawed niche. -
08-01-2023, 08:35 AMLyth
There are a lot of tangential issues being introduced around tank design, but the central point of this thread is about fairness and less about whether you personally enjoy every tank as it is currently designed. Even if you happen to not personally enjoy a job's gameplay as it currently exists, all jobs within a role should be able to bring the same amount of value to the table. Let's use the absolute simplest example:
Sentinel: Lv. 38 Ability. Reduces damage taken by 30%. Duration: 15s, Recast 120s.
Vengeance: Lv. 38 Ability. Reduces damage taken by 30% and delivers an attack with a potency of 55 every time you suffer physical damage. Duration: 15s, Recast 120s.
Shadow Wall: Lv. 38 Ability. Reduces damage taken by 30%. Duration: 15s, Recast 120s.
Nebula: Lv. 38 Ability. Reduces damage taken by 30%. Duration: 15s, Recast 120s.
There are two ways to resolve this in a fair way. The first is to remove the thorns effect from Vengeance, making them all identical. Oh no! Homogenization. We are stifling the deep creative expression of Vengeance's thorns effect. But don't worry, there's an alternative. Give each action its own unique effect. If you can't draw a comparison to what that benefit is, then it's simultaneously fair and heterogenous. Example:
Sentinel: Lv. 38 Ability. Reduces damage taken by 30%. Additional Effect, Watchful Eye: Any healing or shielding effects that you receive are also applied to target under the effect of Cover granted by you. Duration: 15s, Recast 120s. (Note: this would require a Cover rework functioning as a permanent buff similar to Kardia).
Vengeance: Lv. 38 Ability. Reduces damage taken by 30%. Additional Effect, Brutal Counter: The next ability that consumes Beast Gauge restores HP proportional to the amount of damage received in the previous 5 seconds. Duration: 15s, Recast 120s.
Shadow Wall: Lv. 38 Ability. Reduces damage taken by 30%. Additional Effect, Blood Price: Gain stacks of blood price proportionate to the amount of incoming damage received. The next time Oblation is used, the defensive value is increased by X% per stack and target player receives Y potency healing per stack. Duration: 15s, Recast 120s.
Nebula: Lv. 38 Ability. Reduces damage taken by 30%. Additional Effect, Event Horizon: Every time that you take damage, reduce the recast of Heart of Corundum by X seconds. Duration: 15s, Recast 120s.
And while you can debate over which of these effects is better and how to distribute them fairly, it's at least not blatantly obvious that one action is better than the rest like it is right now. Either you completely homogenize the effects so that they are identical and thus balanced, or you make them sufficiently different that you can't draw a direct comparison.
That was a relatively simple example (but one that still needs to be addressed in the next expansion), but the one that really needs to be scrutinized is the raidwide defensives. But we do need to drive this point home to the dev team so that they realize that it's a problem. -
08-01-2023, 09:52 AMShurrikhanThese would be great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
I don't think we need to necessarily need to structure each tank's value in the same way (shared template base + extra) instead of allowing job X to have some skills weaker than others and some skills stronger but to the same total value in practice, but it's a damn site better than PLD, DRK, GNB, and WAR getting, respectively, the base effect, the base effect, the base effect, and the base effect + extra.
That goes for balance, sure, but identity even more than that (as a 2-minute CD like Vengeance countering 4 autos or so for 50p each is still only an extra 100 ppm... which the rest of the kit could just be tuned according to, making it negligible outside of AoE). (Obviously, SiO and the like form far more significant imbalances; just noting the 30% because that was what was used for those examples.) -
08-01-2023, 11:39 AMMarxamIts definitely rose tinted glasses. 3.0 DRK was very jank but they designed content that prioritized magic dmg and you got a tank that specializes in magic dmg mitigation so ppl played it regardless of the high resource management and the awkward toolkit. I'm not saying we should go back to that but I think they should revisit the idea behind Dark Arts, which was an ogcd that buffed the next skill used, via damage and/or utility. That is something WAR very lightly touches on with Infuriate procing inner chaos.Quote:
Originally Posted by vetch
DRK went heavy into it and it opposed WAR which only used Infuriate to get 50 gauge so you can FC. Some examples of Dark Arts being used include: Low blow (DRK exclusive at the time) was a stun that can be proc'd from parries. Parry rate can be increased by Dark Arts buffing Dark Dance. Dark Arts + Dark Passenger is a line aoe with a blind (which also increases chances of missing and/or parrying). If you need more MP, Dark Arts + Siphon Strike. Need more enmity? Dark Arts + Power Slash. Need more magic mitigation? Dark Arts + Dark Mind for 30% mag mitigation. You get the idea.
Dark Arts could have worked if they just focused on what it can affect instead of just letting everything work with DA. If they trimmed it down to two ogcds and two gcds it would have worked. You would have a bad ass animation that's iconic to the job similar to how WAR has Infuriate or PLD has hallowed. -
08-01-2023, 12:09 PMShurrikhanAt the time, most tanks had at least some mitigation only usable against physical damage. DRK wasn't actually much above WAR in that regard, with only PLD really dragging behind*. Without any incoming physical attacks, it wasted both Dark Dance and Reprisal (couldn't parry to unlock it). Warrior wasted Raw Intuition (which was an auto-parry at the time). Paladin wasted Bulwark and Shelltron.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marxam
* Though at least back then Clemency was worth up to 2160 or 2340 potency, iirc, since it was 1200 potency raw (up from 1000), benefited from the Job Actions Bonus II (+20% damage and healing) or Mend and Maim III (+30% damage and healing) trait for extra output, and could get an additional 50% total value by healing an ally instead. Now, it's worth only 615 healer potency or 923 on an ally, since healer potency is actually 130% of the stated value... due to healers alone retaining the Mend and Maim III trait (whereas everyone's output used to be +20% or +30% by level 40 back in HW). Sure, Clemency was still at-cost back then, but it trucked. (And it had some rare uses for preventing Shelltron from being spent on an auto-attack instead of the tankbuster, but that was rarely possible without canceling a combo and is beside the point.)
Not quite. Dark Arts caused Dark Dance to grant 20% Dodge chance, so it actually reduced your chances of getting a parry. Blinds also only increased the enemy's chance to miss, not to be parried, likewise reducing your chance to parry and thereby refresh Low Blow or to ready Reprisal.Quote:
Parry rate can be increased by Dark Arts buffing Dark Dance. Dark Arts + Dark Passenger is a line aoe with a blind (which also increases chances of missing and/or parrying).
Which, honestly, was a kind of interesting part of Dark Knight. You could go deep on mitigation short-term, but at longer-term cost.
I'd still rather (enemy) Accuracy and the way RNG mitigation works had been rehauled (Crits prevented RNG mitigation, dodge was completely bimodal, and each form of RNG mitigation was mutually exclusive with the others -- such that if you blocked, you couldn't also parry, even if the parry would have occurred and would have been stronger when carrying a light shield, since at least heavy shields had higher %mitigation than parry), but I didn't mind that DRK's skills could be slightly overpowered individually without being overpowered together in practice due to certain anti-synergies.
Agreed on reworking and revitalizing Dark Arts, though. But for that to see much value, we'd also have to bring back ways for the other tanks, too, to trade offense for sustain or vice versa (which I'd also like). -
08-01-2023, 12:17 PMKabooaCould be a fun thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
"Add One Mechanic to your Job: Tank edition" -
08-01-2023, 03:56 PMMarxamRemove the cost of TBN, DA costs 3k MP, put DA on a 7 sec recast with only 3 secs to use it (just long enough to not have it up for back to back gcd usage) and maybe put TBN on a longer cd but with 2 charges and problem solved. Something like 20 secs with 2 charges but it no longer offers the mp cost/refund since that has moved to DA. DA doesn't need to be anything more complicated than buffing abilities since we have moved away from utility as a whole and it's definition has changed from what it used to mean. Utility back then was things like TP regen, aggro tools like smokescreen or cc like blind. Utility now is just party dmg buffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Regardless, some examples of DA usage if it existed in the game today:
DA + TBN = 25% HP shield and 3k MP refund and small HP heal 400-500 potency
DA + Dark Mind = 30% magic mitigation
DA + Oblation = 20% mitigation
DA + Siphon strike = MP restore and MP regen hot
DA + Souleater = heal 100% of dmg dealt
DA + Stalwart Soul = cure potency of 100 on each enemy hit
A lot of these examples are things that could have worked if DA existed as a button similar to infuriate, but unlike infuriate, its not a gauge spender but rather opens up options in your tool kit. This is how they could have made a "WAR-clone" without actually copy-pasting. Both tanks revolve around a singular button but both have vastly different approaches. WAR's infuriate only gives you a gauge spender which helps proc crit heals when in BW whereas DRK's Dark Arts opens up your options to your current rotation. If DA worked as I stated above your standard 123 now has the options of either more MP for more darkness spams or HP for more sustain.
DA would also give you the options with you defensive cds when mix and matching them. Tank buster coming up and need more upfront mitigation, DA + TBN. Tank buster is a magic multi hitter, DA + DM. DPS getting hit with a spicy dot, DA + Oblation. Ultimately the idea is that DA coming back will only add to the job and return the flexibility it once had. Shadow spam will still exist but now you have an option not to do it since DA exists. -
08-01-2023, 07:00 PMShurrikhanDRK: Dark Arts/Dark PassengerQuote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
WAR: Wrath/AbandonDark Arts: Spend MP to enhance your next GCD action, adding value (in some not-directly-offensive way) through some new effect.
Dark Passenger: Spend MP to follow up on an oGCD action used in the last few seconds by hitting that same button again.
Effect: DRK gets more APM and a margining mechanic (Passenger after CnS and Shadowbringer, at minimum), and is more able to more its resources between different types of outputs/utilities, deepening a portion of its identity (as the resourceful, deliberate, and cunning no-holds-barred 'bastard' tank).
PLD: Sword/Shield OathContext:
- Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone are no longer replaced by Fell Cleave and Decimate; the latter just become new, more offensively oriented options at the same time the defensive benefits of the first two are slightly increased.
- Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone heal for damage dealt instead of a flat amount.
- Inner Release separated from Berserk and now instead simply doubles all gauge generation while halving all gauge spending. It has been turned into a 90s CD that lasts 15 seconds, while Berserk now increases crit chance and chance to be crit for 10 seconds (attacks which cannot crit simply have their damage increased instead). [TBR; the more Berserk-y Berserk effect is still spitball.]
- Enhanced Infuriate changed to Seeing Red, which allows you to rush the cooldown of Berserk or Inner Release by 1 second for the cooldown of both Berserk and Inner Release by 1 second for every 10 Gauge spent.
- Upheaval, Orogeny, and Onslaught again cost Beast Gauge, and all spenders now have a minimum to maximum amount that they can spend at a time, based on current Beast Gauge.
- For instance, Fell Cleave spends 75% of available Gauge to a minimum of 25 (so, 25 to 75 Gauge) for proportionate potency(-over-average-ppgcd), while Onslaught costs 5 to 15 Gauge.
- Warrior now passively drains or gains Beast Gauge over time until coming to its resting point of 50 Gauge. As such, one has to balance the advantages of (A), say, getting as big a Fell Cleave as possible for the additional ppgcd and higher ceilings for burst eHP or offense and (B) maximizing overall Gauge generation.
- Upheaval maximum spending increased and its damage again scales more greatly with one's current and maximum HP, but at twice the intensity it did in Stormblood.
- Another gauge spender added (some sort of enraged channel of blows) and/or Orogeny made more interesting.
Spending Beast Gauge on Defiance Gauge (Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone, Inner Chaos, Chaotic Cyclone) Spenders grants a granular amount of Wrath, increasing your Tenacity, Maximum HP, and Leech based on damage dealt. Spending Beast Gauge on Deliverance skills (Fell Cleave, Decimate, Inner Chaos, Chaotic Cyclone) grants a granular amount of Abandon, increasing your Critical Hit. Additionally, all Beast Gauge spending grants an amount of Attack Speed and Movement Speed based on gauge spent.
These benefits generated fade linearly over time (e.g., bursting to 20% and fading to 0% over 20 seconds if no further effects come in; any number of applications may occur simultaneously).
Note that Defiance skills (Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone) have a high amount of innate Leech (heals for % of damage dealt), while Deliverance skills (Fell Cleave and Decimate) have none except as provided through Wrath or other external effects. As such, the higher potencies of Fell Cleave and Decimate benefit more from the Leech generated by Defiance skills and Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone benefit more from crit chance, since they can crit either
Effect: Warrior is now the ramping behemoth job for whom survival depends on timely offense and accumulation.
GNB: Aetherocharge and Cartridges (reworked)Paladin now generartes Oath Gauge from both attacks or defense, gaining a flat amount of Oath from blocks and a variable amount from damage nullification, and gaining a flat amount per attack and variable amount based on physical damage dealt. Oath may be spent to rush defensive CDs (spend gauge to instantly complete their cooling times early) or enhance them, or to skip a rush a combo step or follow up an attack for an additional effect.
The more Oath is generated from one source (from Sword [defensive generators] or from Shield [offensive generators]), the more Oath can be spent at a time for the respective effects.
Effect: Essentially, Paladin remains as flexible as before, but can follow a particular route as either a bastion or crusader type to increasingly pull off some unique levels of defensive or offensive strength, though at cost to combined/simultaneous value.
_______Powder Gauge's function as a pace-setter for burst actions replaced by a more granular Aethercharge gauge built towards Continuation. Those "cartridges" themselves are now used instead as consumable, skill-altering augmentations for the gunblade, based on what form of Aether they've been charged with. Empty cartridges can be charged by absorbing aether as an enemy attack is charging, shortly after the enemy's attack (gauge generated depends on damage absorbed relative to base HP at min ilvl) via Draw, or spending Aethercharge to typify one's Cartridge based on your recent offensive or utility actions. Cartridge types available regardless of enemy include Galeforce Charge, Polarity Charge, Shellshock Charge, and Hardlight Charge. Each adds a general buff (like additional movement and attack speed based on current Charge level), an additional effect to one or more actions, and a unique charge spender (such as no-CD gap-closers and combos therefrom).
Charge drains slowly over time but can be generated to a varying degree by your weaponskills or other actions, based on Cartridge type. Charge can be spent all at once via Burst Strike, emptying the Cartridge to allow it to be retypified while dealing massive damage based on the Charge stored. Starting at level 64, one can cycle between Cartridges using Cycle Cartridge; by level 84, one can cycle between 3. However, note that each Cartridge will drain individually and simultaneously, so there is a cost to that utility, meaning that one will probably want to let at one drain and recharge it burstily later if it's needed.
Effect: Imagine a combination of Nero's DMC5 mechanic and rotating mechanic-granting duration-consumable buffs a la Heavensward Blood of the Dragon, such that GNB is now a stance-dancing, stance-forming madman of tremendous versatility despite an average size button count. And GNB is just now utterly gigabrain instead of just uniquely a bit clunky.
Overall Effects: DRK now has the most immediate and active/deliberate utility, WAR and GNB have the most involved macrorotations (managed/salvaged/gambled line-ups between CDs, gauge, and GCDs); WAR has the most gauge management and combined eHP + DPS ramping; GNB has the most soft utility and versatility and the most fight-specific milestones for gleaning damage and/or further utility and would generally appear the most gigabrain; and PLD has the highest highs of offense or defense, though at cost, able to pull off some cheese strats no one else could possibly manage. -
08-02-2023, 02:08 PMKabooaOddly enough I think you could accomplish this as is with just "Improved Dark Arts" on the current Dark Knight. Talked about it some in a random thread like a year+ ago, where the Dark Arts from TBN is just consumed for the various OGCDs, Carve/Spit, Salted Earth, Abyssal Drain (unlocked from C/S), and whatever else they add. A future proofed mechanic that also divides itself from the 2min meta, as you can only get so many Dark Arts in a given period, so you can try and greed more, but it would ideally always be more beneficial to use an OGCD with one rather than without one, even under buff windows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I think Abandon/Wrath would be better utilized as enhancer stacks. By using Defiance skills, you build Abandon, and by using Deliverance skills you build Wrath. You create a push and pull style of spending for defense to set up offensive windows, and spending on offense to set up defense windows. From here you could go for a pendulum style as something I would favor for White Mage but can still work here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Something like - I build Wrath 1. Use a stage 1 enhanced Defiance skill to spend Wrath 1, and swing to Abandon 2. Use a stage 2 enhanced Deliverance skill and swing to Defiance 3. Use a stage 3 enhanced Defiance skill and reset to 0.
Apply the same idea that you build bonuses based on which stage of Wrath/Abandon you're in for all your basic skills, so you have planned areas of extended empowered states, and utilizing Beast gauge to cash in / build back up. Reminds me a lot of how TK Monk used to play where being at Stage 3 was the preference, but resetting had such a large boon and rebuilding was made to be short enough that you regularly dumped to 0 and rebuilt to 3.
Having trouble picturing this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
While I don't agree with the hard specifics, the general idea of Gunbreaker rotating through cartridges that provide different effects to their base stats and their spenders is something I'm absolutely on board with. I would remove the Charges depreciating, as I personally find the idea of overcapping forcing a response to be good. Burst Strike consuming all charges I'm 50/50 on. On one hand, moving into "Hardlight" and dumping a full cartridge into Burst Strike while generating a superbarrier for doing so sounds awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
On the other, I fear it encourages staying in whatever the "Damage" cartridge is and just cycling to Burst dump and then go back into, I don't know...Shellshock sounds like the Crit stance :P. -
08-02-2023, 02:41 PMShurrikhanFair enough. T'was all spitball anyways, haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
In my head, Shellshock would still be dual purpose. It'd be the one that had the highest consumption damage, but would tie damage dealt to target-suppression -- i.e., it's both the shell/armor-breaker... and shocks (as if an artillery shell exploded on them). /shrugQuote:
On the other, I fear it encourages staying in whatever the "Damage" cartridge is and just cycling to Burst dump and then go back into, I don't know...Shellshock sounds like the Crit stance. :P
The general idea was that any Cartridge with a notable damage advantage could only be formed following certain offensive CDs and most of that offensive value would come from consuming it, thus making it at most a small overall DPS bump to include it per 2 minutes or whatever as a milestone (e.g., forming and burning it during the 2-minute raid buffs if you could afford to go little Aetherocharge for the moment or the mitigation it provides also wouldn't go to waste).
Apart from that, all Cartridges would have about equal mixtures of damage, sustain, and utility (that which cannot easily or directly be quantified into sustain or damage value and generally feels a bit more 'fun' and 'extra'), though in rather different ways.
Charge (granular/centigrade gauge), rather than charges (discrete, lower-maximum values), to be clear. And I should have been clearer that you'd have new pseudo-burst and rotational options to take Burst Strike's place.Quote:
Burst Strike consuming all charges I'm 50/50 on.
So, really, I guess it's just that you're getting a new skill that's more akin to an infrequent nuke that you can rush at cost if you know the fight will soon end. What Burst Strike provided to gameplay before, you'd still have in some new, but Cartridge-dependent, form.
Draw/Infuse would have two charges, of maybe 20-40s, in place of Bloodfest (but obviously they're acquired far earlier on, so that you can get access to the actions and effects unique to typified Cartridges -- as compared to just raw Charge), and those would ultimately be what let you recover from blowing your whole Cartridge (though less vitally after you get access to a 2nd or 3rd cartridge simultaneously held).
As for it blowing all the charge, that just seemed the most thematic way of clearing the Cartridge of its additional effects, reverting it to a raw state to be retypified.
That's the idea, yup.Quote:
On one hand, moving into "Hardlight" and dumping a full cartridge into Burst Strike while generating a superbarrier for doing so sounds awesome.
I'll probably do a "Diversifying Tanks" thread at some point that will include a few sample scenarios. It's similar to the suggested Wrath/Abandon mechanic, but with options to devote oneself more towards either single direction, or to more deliberately swap between them.Quote:
Having trouble picturing this [Sword/Shield Oath]
I feel like the suggested version already applies plenty of push and pull / pendulum swing, just with a bit more freedom / space for ingenuity... so long as damage intake isn't stupidly low (which then would be a gamewide problem to be addressed first and separately, imo). But I was likely less clear than I should have been in that example if that didn't come across. I'll try to address that in future mock-ups.Quote:
I think Abandon/Wrath would be better utilized as enhancer stacks. By using Defiance skills, you build Abandon, and by using Deliverance skills you build Wrath. You create a push and pull style of spending for defense to set up offensive windows, and spending on offense to set up defense windows. From here you could go for a pendulum style as something I would favor for White Mage but can still work here.
I wouldn't mind that as a bandaid fix for now, but I'd rather have that complete on-demand freedom for technical utility of a Dark Arts that exists independently of TBN.Quote:
Oddly enough I think you could accomplish this as is with just "Improved Dark Arts" on the current Dark Knight... where the Dark Arts from TBN is just consumed for the various OGCDs, Carve/Spit, Salted Earth, Abyssal Drain...
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08-04-2023, 01:49 AMRithy255
Warrior vs Paladin
Generally you want to always pick a Warrior over a Paladin, The only real benefit PLD has over Warrior is Passage of arms, even then the benefit is situational at best as you're not always going to line up the cone with the party... You also can hold two stacks of your mitigation due to how oath gauge works, but generally this is only useful in double tank buster situations or being more flexible with your charges, The Devs likely consider Cover & Clemency actual benefits to PLD likely why its been awful all expansion, personally they need to make those abilities have more general use, I know passage of arms will likely stay more situational with its cone because "pretty animation".
Warrior Vs Gunbreaker
Gunbreaker defensive wise is pretty comparable to PLD in a lot of ways, but in general PLD has slightly more utility, but the thing is Gunbreaker does a lot of damage so it actually has a place in teams while PLD's utility isn't really enough to stand out, compared to Warrior? I think it's in a decent spot, but It's a lot more difficult to play then Warrior even if tanks are "easy"
Warrior Vs Dark Knight
Both follow very similar rotations, DK is the OCGD spammer version of warrior generally, but does less damage right now currently, Defensive wise? yeah its pretty good actually you got so many mitigations on Dark Knight, Dark Mind and TBN might just be really badly designed abilities but they do work really well for raiding content. Honestly Dark Knight is a good defensive pick over the other tanks if played correctly, Not to say in casual content its well made defensively, it's kit is basically designed purposely around savage raids more then any other job.
I think in general Warrior isn't as "OP" as people make it out to be, but I will say I dislike how much group healing it has, shake it off shouldn't give a regen (PLD should at least lore wise lol), Warrior's aoe healing is also unfun for casual content, Healers should actually have to heal.
I'd say the main issue with tanks lies in PLD being so underwhelming while it seems Warrior gets good treatment over other tanks, I think Dark Knights design is due for a overhaul So is a lot of PLD's Kit, but I don't think it's 100% a warrior issue, but I would love it if they cut down on warriors AOE healing and removed the Regen. I'd also hope they would aim to make Dark knight do slightly more then warrior as it requires more work. -
08-06-2023, 03:43 PMMarxamThe irony is that WAR healing is actually at its weakest albeit, most accessible to newer players at the cost of reducing the skill ceiling. Originally, WAR healing was based on a % of dmg dealt. Inner Beast used to heal for 100% of dmg dealt (after 2.1) and 300% on ARR release. Hit a training dummy right now and that was exactly what you healed for or multiply it by 3 to get the original WAR heal effect. You also have to consider that originally, Berserk increased attack power so you dealt more dmg and thus received more healing. Berserk used to a 50% atk power increase only to eventually get nerfed to 20% before just being replaced by IR via trait.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255
Healing potency caps the amount of healing you receive with the only exception of being crits and you only get 4 heals per use of BW/NF, assuming you hit all your gcds. It also removes the "healing" you get from vengeance's counter effect and ogcds since those deal dmg as well but are not counted as weaponskills so that's less healing overall. In general they made it much easier not to mess up your self sustain but as a trade off the skill required in executing high heals like timing your ogcds with gcds has been nerfed. Pair that with the forced rng of direct hit crits and this is actually the weakest iteration of WAR healing currently. They compensated by adding regens to skills like equilibrium and SiO. Both a bit redundant but still nice changes in terms of utility.
However, you are right in saying that WAR only looks far more superior because the other tanks look bad. -
08-06-2023, 03:59 PMOizen
Well to be honest I don't think its WAR's -self- healing thats overpowered. Its WAR's other features. The skills I view as bloated are Nascent Flash, and Shake it Off.
Nascent Flash is wayyyy better a skill than TBNOblation, HoC or HS when used on an ally, Its not like those have any direct benefits to the tank who cast it other than keeping said ally alive. Not WAR though, its still healing itself WHILE ALSO pocketing said target. This double dip is insane.WAR very much can act as healer #3 or pocket another player indefinitely in some content. Something the other tanks just cant do.
Shake it off is more straightforward, its just overpowered compared to the other options, this skill has so much value compared to the others, and also compounds the previous issue more of allowing WAR to just team sustain far better than the other tanks. I really don't think this skill needed to be given a regen a few patches ago, but here we are. Its also bizzarre to me that Paladin has to pay for its lesser utility yet WAR gets rewarded for it.
Equalibirum feels like it doesn't really have a counterpart on other tanks as well, and I'm kinda surprised they decided it needed "Additional Effect: Steal GNB's Aurora", but if it was just this it probably be fine. -
08-06-2023, 09:02 PMGoatOfWar
Browsing the forums and other online discussion platforms it just seems like Warriors want to be the best at everything, and will gatekeep other tanks for the sake of ''uniqueness'' when they don't play the inferior tanks.
I highly doubt they'll ever accept meaningful changes to the other tanks. Jank makes them unique, you see. Don't homogenise my game!
Warrior getting the same, and better tools than the other tanks while having no jank of it's own is different though, because apparently Warrior really needs to be the best at everything. -
08-06-2023, 11:47 PMValkyrieL
I think shake it off got the healing regen as a result of P8S, bleeding effect was a pain for healers and shake had no coverage besides initial hit. Also shake is not always better than HoL like many claim, there are many raid wides where HoL double dips on mitigation that can save you....regen is not going to save you if you never survive the hit in the 1st place.
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08-07-2023, 12:12 AMShurrikhan
I still don't get the idea, thematically / as it'd fit to Warrior's aesthetic, of Nascent Flash. I could understand some manner of War Cry where up to 4 wounded allies within 10 yalms of you split a 50% Bloodbath buff for 6 seconds or so, but some weird sort of channeling vampiric energies directly? It just feels so out of place.
Same with the healing on Shake it Off, though not quite as badly.
Heck, I'd gladly just replace both Nascent and Shake it Off with a 2-charge 90s-recast dynamic skill that spreads your latest personal buff to nearby allies at reduced/split effect. No Nascent Flash, no Shake it Off. The prior is replaced by Bloodwhetting, which is now pure healing opposite Raw Intuition's pure mitigation.
Instead, you'd just have War Cry, and you get to decide what to spread with it. Thrill of Battle's current and maximum HP? Raw Intuition's mitigation? Vengeance's counterattacks (for rDPS against spam AoE damage)? Inner Release's knockback immunity? Bloodwhetting's Leech effect? Use it smartly, because you only get the one per 90s. -
08-07-2023, 02:18 AMLyth
I wish they kept a changelog of the actions (including added and removed actions) on the FFXIV job pages. You can still retrospectively piece the timeline of changes together if you put in some effort, but it should be a lot more transparent to the end user.
The raidwide heal on Shake it Off and Divine Veil was added on Endwalker's launch (02/12/2021). It's a bit of a strange decision for starters, because they were already superior to Dark Missionary and Heart of Light. The regen effect on Shake it Off looks like it was added on 10/01/2023, which would have been Patch 6.3. It's a bit of a strange choice because bubble shields can absorb damage from DoT ticks as well as of this expansion.
I think what they need to do is just put all of the tanks' raidwide mitigation side-by-side. I'll do it now.
Paladin:
Lv. 56. Recast: 90s, Range 30y.
Creates a barrier around self and all party members near you that absorbs damage equivalent to 10% of your maximum HP. Duration: 30s.
Additional Effect: Restores target's HP, Cure Potency: 400.
Lv. 70. Recast: 90s, Range 8y.
Increases block rate to 100% and creates a designated area in a cone behind you in which party members will only suffer 85% of all damage inflicted. Duration: 18s.
Effect ends upon using another action or moving (including facing a different direction).
Cancels auto-attack upon execution.
Warrior:
Lv. 68. Recast: 90s, Range 30y.
Creates a barrier around self and all nearby party members that absorbs damage totaling 15% of maximum HP.
Dispels Thrill of Battle, Vengeance, and Bloodwhetting, increasing damage absorbed by 2% for each effect removed. Duration: 30s
Additional Effect: Gradually restores HP. Cure Potency: 100 Duration: 15s.
Additional Effect: Restores target's HP. Cure Potency: 300.
Dark Knight
Lv. 76. Recast: 90s, Range 30y.
Reduces magic damage taken by self and nearby party members by 10%.
Duration: 15s.
Gunbreaker:
Lv. 64. Recast: 90s, Range 30y.
Reduces magic damage taken by self and nearby party members by 10%.
Duration: 15s.
Looks balanced, right? It's especially funny when you remember that Dark Missionary and Heart of Light were introduced one expansion later. This is the same balance team that actually thought it was 'balanced' for a tank to be down 1-2 raidwide mitigation actions compared to the others.
If they want a fair gameplay experience, they have to go back to the drawing board and redesign these abilities. The easiest solution without any bloat is to just remove all of them and have tanks rely exclusively on Reprisal, which is supposedly why it was handed out to every tank job in the first place. If you don't want to do that, the alternative is to create four unique actions that each provide a different benefit. For example:
Passage of Arms:
Increases block rate to 100% and creates a designated area in a cone behind you in which party members will only suffer 90% of all damage inflicted, and prevents draw-in and knockback effects. Restores HP over time. You may move into this area once activated.
Divine Veil: Removed.
Shake it Off:
Increases maximum HP of self and all nearby party members by 10% and restores the amount increased.
Dispels Thrill of Battle, Vengeance, and Bloodwhetting, applying the following effects:
Thrill of Battle: Healing actions on self generate healing on nearby party members.
Vengeance: Increases maximum HP of self and all party members by 2%.
Bloodwhetting: Restores additional HP to party members for every weaponskill delivered.
Dark Missionary:
Creates a personal barrier around self and nearby party members that absorbs damage totaling 10% of maximum HP.
Grants Dark Bond: Increases movement speed by 10%. Effect can jump to a nearby player. You cannot reacquire Dark Bond once it has been passed on. All players receive healing proportionate to the amount of times this effect was passed when it expires.
Heart of Light:
Creates a field in which absorbs incoming raidwide damage proportional to the number of players inside. Any damage in excess of the total is split equally between players within its area. When the effect ends or the barrier shatters, restores HP to all nearby players.
Either way, they should do a formal review of the raidwide mitigation tools on tanks and either reduce it to one unique job specific action each or just stick to Reprisal in isolation. And the magical damage only criteria needs to go. -
08-07-2023, 03:12 AMvetchDidn't you get the design memo? Consistent job theming is out, stapling numbers to other numbers is in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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08-07-2023, 04:47 AMOizenI would say that while true there is some places where DM or HoL can shine over Shake, those are the exception and not the status quo, double dipping on mits is good, but rarely is it required.Quote:
Originally Posted by ValkyrieL
There are far more situations and content where those two skills are just flat out dead hotbar space, and Shake absolutely thrives. Anything normal mode, heavy focus on physical, deep dungeons, shake is never a bad skill, while HoL and DM can be made absolutely irrelevant. Felt like shit to get a mech like HH and only being able to contribute a Reprisal.
And its obvious to say that Shake does better in situations where HoL thrives, than HoL does in situations where Shake thrives. Its just an all around more powerful, applicable skill. -
08-07-2023, 05:38 PMAbsurdityWhich is partially a problem with Endwalker's fight design. We don't get back-to-back magical aoes where DM or HoL would get more value, instead we get 1 big aoe followed by 30+ seconds of nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
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08-07-2023, 06:20 PMShurrikhanWhich would allow for a painfully easy fix in the name of balance... without even having to touch the kits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
(Yes, encounter redesign is a larger endeavor than adding a new property to an existing skills, but frankly we really ought to have more damage intake anyways.) -
08-08-2023, 12:54 AMKabooaFrankly, I think there should simply just be less healing power in non-healer kits, and probably in the healer kits as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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08-08-2023, 01:03 AMShurrikhanOh, agreed. Go back to Shadowbringers levels, rework Nascent Flash to be less insane, and give PLD some manner of free healing that is weaker but more time-able than Req-heals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
Additionally, kill Tank Mastery, reduce the Fending gear advantage to eHP slightly, tune down anti-tank damage slightly accordingly, tune down all healing to nearer to damage-dealing potency per action... and ideally remove Rangers' +20% damage traits in favor of just 20% more potency on their skills, and the +30% damage and healing traits from Healers in favor of a bigger damage increase on their level 40ish attack upgrades (no buff to healing), so that one job's 400 potency isn't randomly another job's 520 potency. Then --very pipedream-- actually give back healers some offensive complexity and give back tanks some control between prioritizing sustain and pure offense. -
08-08-2023, 03:48 AMAbsurdityReturning Nascent back to it's Shadowbringers version would already be sufficient I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Nascent healing relying on your dps output would already reign in the free healing because the situation where you need to heal yourself or someone else will rarely overlap with your burst phase.
And then of course return Bloodwhetting back to Raw Intuition so you have to decide between healing and mitigation.
I'm also completely for removing the Tank Mastery trait because it's a trap anyway, iirc it came packaged together with a hidden nerf to tank damage calculation anyway. -
08-08-2023, 03:58 AMOizenThats not going to change the damage types used in other content, Magic damage in something like a Deep Dungeon or Criterion add-phase is significantly more rare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity