Mentor Status AKA the new Sprouts AKA Burger King Hats

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kolaina

I absolutely agree with you. A mentor is there to help when they can and if they can. They are not all knowing, elite players. This expectation some of the community has for mentors should be reserved for only the top few percent of players.

Ideally we should only have high expectations of ourselves

---

Generally speaking, mentors have probably seen all of these mechanics. So, many won't be "new" but it doesn't mean they'll get it right 100% of the time.

Mentors should carry me tru the entire game, even savages nor ultimates period.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kolaina

So the sprouts die because of the mentor, who is expected to excel at over 100 instances. No fault of the sprout or any other non mentor player in the instance.

How about being responsible for your own progress and / or performance? No? Alright, my bad

---

Then why have the mentor system at all? If they aren't there to help others improve and learn and everyone has to do that themselves without any assistance from anyone ever in the game then it sounds like the mentor system isn't necessary at all and should be removed.

mentor make me so angwy!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

Then why have the mentor system at all? If they aren't there to help others improve and learn and everyone has to do that themselves without any assistance from anyone ever in the game then it sounds like the mentor system isn't necessary at all and should be removed.

---

They didn't say anything about a mentor not helping or providing assistance. Just that a mentors responsibility isn't to ensure a sprout/non-mentor doesn't die. The mentor can offer advice and encouragement and, if the sprout/non-mentor has a question, try their best to answer it. Sprouts/non-mentors are still responsible for themselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

Then why have the mentor system at all? If they aren't there to help others improve and learn and everyone has to do that themselves without any assistance from anyone ever in the game then it sounds like the mentor system isn't necessary at all and should be removed.

---

ChrysOce already answered that on the previous page.

It’s a voluntary service to provide knowledge and insight. Not to be walking strategy guides and hand holders

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dspguy

Generally speaking, mentors have probably seen all of these mechanics. So, many won't be "new" but it doesn't mean they'll get it right 100% of the time.

---

Generally speaking, most mentors unsynced those fights

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Makarovv

I find it incredibly annoying wiping multiple times in a row in roulettes cause half or more than half the party, in some cases, are made up of sprouts following the mentor that doesn't actually know the mechanics., when your just trying to get through your dailies. I have no problems helping out sprouts, i enjoy it, the problem is the sprout in disguise (aka Mentor) causing the wipes due to the crown.

---

I didn't notice people following mentors just because they are mentors. There is a good chance half or more of the group will be some type of mentor. I have had the full mentor crown for like a month and I didn't unlock the mentor roulette and I don't really plan to. Aside from that, I don't run all of the daily roulettes and most of them only on my healer main job, not as tank just because I don't want to end up in a modern raid which I did once to unlock it / see the story and which has actual mechanics to obey I forgot long ago. If you want RIO / M+ score for each instance to allow access then get ready for 100% Crystal Tower, Titan/Ifrit and no SHB/EW or even SB/HW trials or raids. Even dungeons like Ktisis Hyperboreia would die out. There is way to many instances and there is no encounter journal to quickly refresh what's it all about (and not enough time to open wiki or Mizteq video and go over it :D)

Part of the problem is that players think mentors should be something they aren't. Mentors are simply people that have 1500 commendations, 1000 dungeons, and a level 90 tank, healer and DPS. SE lays out what mentors do:

#1 Provide gameplay advice for new adventurers and other players.
#2 Be an exemplar for player etiquette.
#3 Invite new adventurers to the Novice Network, and answer their queries in the chat channel.

That's all it is. Nowhere does it say mentors have to be 100% perfect in everything. That's a community perception. Mentor status doesn't require any major changes. It serves its purpose. The only thing I could recommend is that mentors need to sometimes execute the "kick from channel" on other mentors for breaking #2. That's what gives mentors a bad reputation, in my opinion.

Players don't come on Novice Network to get answers on how to completely maximize their DPS for raid purposes. That's what discords like The Balance are for. Mentors can give advice on how to get better, but the squabbling in NN over whether it makes more sense to use Chainsaw before Air Anchor for an extra 5 dps is plain silly.

I don’t think anyone has to worry about SE implementing OPs proposal. Not going to happen. Too complicated, impractical and not in line with SE’s “no individual player humiliation” in public approach. Besides, that would mean being demoted for soloing extremes and ignoring mechanics when soloing stuff for WT.

The mentor system and how it works is 90% of the time a total joke, that is one of the reasons never going to wear any of them so called crowns.... and many of them that end joining in more difficult content just instant quits when the ex trials and likes turn up on the Mentor roulette.

The best thing would be to burry the mentor mount and achievement for good, due to the lack of dedication normally seen and that many ruin it for the few.

If you notice most Novice Networks, it is usually only the same old same old people replying to stuff and trying to do a difference.... and 1000s of others that just has the mentor crowns as an empty symbol they can't and wont live up to when you see them in game as it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Expecting a mentor to know the mechanics of every singular duty contained within said roulette, most especially when this includes extreme content, is just simply not pragmatic, this is why the mentor system isn't really feasible in the first place.

Sure, you'll encourage improvement of performance, but this also isn't really pragmatic in a roulette of this scope.

---

Yeah, I've seen and cleared a lot of instances, but I'm never going to remember everything all the time. Usually, it takes getting hit by something or dying to it to jog my memory, but then I'm good. No one is perfect, not even the best of mentors. Everyone is capable of human error.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SannaR

Sounds like the guy wants a parse to me. You might not have directly said that you expect a mentor to know everything in or remember how a fight works, but your grading scale that changes during the fight(?) would be doing just that. Your Op is also heavily suggesting that if the mentor doesn't give advice post wipe that they're a bad. Not everyone is going to want advice or even listen to said advice. Heck not everyone wants to hear about mechanics going into a fight. Some fights are mechanic heavy that trying to explain them all takes up too much time. That and until a wipe happens you don't know if the later mechanics should even be brought up.

I also haven't seen people flock to wherever the rare crown wearer is. The dorito wearer? Heck yes and even then I've had that person get me dead (HI 3rd Puppet's Bunker boss amongst others).

---

nowhere in my post did i suggest a parse as in (dps), i could care less for that stuff. i've seen how toxic it can be from different mmo's. i also didn't say the mentors gotta know every mechanic , nor did i say they gotta teach or give advice about the fight/instance. i was suggesting a grading system for mechanics done successfully during the instance and shows you the grade [B]after[B] the duty is complete next to the instance name in duty finder or on the picture template on the right..... Not seeing people flock to wherever the crown is, this is true, most of the time sprouts are just doing sprouts things, which is no biggie. This is just from my experiences, everyone has different experiences, i've seen it multiple times.it gets annoying when it happens. all i said was , for their crown to be turned off automatically for that specific instance that they're not good at, until their personal success rate is up there, not every instance as everyone is assuming. i might've worded it wrong might be the problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Yeah, I've seen and cleared a lot of instances, but I'm never going to remember everything all the time. Usually, it takes getting hit by something or dying to it to jog my memory, but then I'm good. No one is perfect, not even the best of mentors. Everyone is capable of human error.

---

wholeheartedly agree

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ThroatDeep

mentor make me so angwy!!!

---

actually chuckled lmao

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hagare

well this ted talk was disappointing.

---

Agree lmao

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Makarovv

nowhere in my post did i suggest a parse as in (dps), i could care less for that stuff. i've seen how toxic it can be from different mmo's. i also didn't say the mentors gotta know every mechanic , nor did i say they gotta teach or give advice about the fight/instance. i was suggesting a grading system for mechanics done successfully during the instance and shows you the grade [B]after[B] the duty is complete next to the instance name in duty finder or on the picture template on the right..... Not seeing people flock to wherever the crown is, this is true, most of the time sprouts are just doing sprouts things, which is no biggie. This is just from my experiences, everyone has different experiences, i've seen it multiple times.it gets annoying when it happens. all i said was , for their crown to be turned off automatically for that specific instance that they're not good at, until their personal success rate is up there, not every instance as everyone is assuming. i might've worded it wrong might be the problem.

---

But how do you qualify that someone is bad at it? Cause they failed a mechanic? How do you tell that the failing was them not understanding the mechanic or a cascading issue from someone else not understanding the same/earlier mechanic? A tower needs to be soaked, but there is someone in the wrong spot. You try and rush to get to the tower to soak it (faster than typing in chat) but fail. Did you personally fail the mechanic? How do you separate group vs individual mechanics? And how do you improve the grade? By re-doing the instance and getting it right? Or do you need to show consistency? And, again, how do you grade this with the possible impact from other party members, that can affect your positioning/execution?

It's just not practical in any way to implement and it doesn't align with the role Square wants for mentors.

Unless the mentor says to follow, they shouldn't follow. I mean, if I'm on my main tanking and mess up a mechanic, with most everything I won't die (outside EX, savage, etc). If sprouts follow me, though, they probably will since don't have the def or mitigation. Sometimes tanks are lazy and sometimes just eat mechs we know we can live through. Plus as others have said, sometimes we get unlucky and get a dungeon we maybe only did once - in that case we might as well be sprouts too ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Makarovv

I believe this will push players/community to want to do better or strive to be a better player. you get the gist of it, im out. Thank you for coming to my ted talk o/

---

You don't know people very well, do you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kolaina

ChrysOce already answered that on the previous page.

It’s a voluntary service to provide knowledge and insight. Not to be walking strategy guides and hand holders

---

You literally said everyone should be responsible for their own progress and performance, which would mean mentors should not help them with their progress through the game nor with their performance, so what are mentors helping with then?

I think the mentors are actually teaching the sprouts a very valuable lesson, learn mechanics and don't just follow people or you will die.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by angienessyo

I think the mentors are actually teaching the sprouts a very valuable lesson, learn mechanics and don't just follow people or you will die.

---

https://media.tenor.com/R89bWK82PhEAAAAM/falcon-out.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SieyaM

You literally said everyone should be responsible for their own progress and performance, which would mean mentors should not help them with their progress through the game nor with their performance, so what are mentors helping with then?

---

You are responsible for your own progress. That doesn’t change.
Mentors can volunteer information, give guidance, whatever. But they are not responsible for you.
People are allowed to seek help. People are able to help, when they want to.
The op states that these mentors are being followed during mechanics, leading to wipes because the mentor was wrong. The mentor is not the “follow me if you want to live” marker the op suggests they should be.

I get you’re trying to pull a “gotcha” which would make your discussing this disingenuous, but you’re reaching for things that aren’t there

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dspguy

Part of the problem is that players think mentors should be something they aren't. Mentors are simply people that have 1500 commendations, 1000 dungeons, and a level 90 tank, healer and DPS. SE lays out what mentors do:

#1 Provide gameplay advice for new adventurers and other players.
#2 Be an exemplar for player etiquette.
#3 Invite new adventurers to the Novice Network, and answer their queries in the chat channel.

That's all it is. Nowhere does it say mentors have to be 100% perfect in everything. That's a community perception. Mentor status doesn't require any major changes. It serves its purpose. The only thing I could recommend is that mentors need to sometimes execute the "kick from channel" on other mentors for breaking #2. That's what gives mentors a bad reputation, in my opinion.

Players don't come on Novice Network to get answers on how to completely maximize their DPS for raid purposes. That's what discords like The Balance are for. Mentors can give advice on how to get better, but the squabbling in NN over whether it makes more sense to use Chainsaw before Air Anchor for an extra 5 dps is plain silly.

---

I disagree. The whole system needs to be reworked from the ground up. Not really like how OP suggests, but it needs a change.

Also no one really wants to kick in the NN unless it's bots or whatever, because as it turns out you can have a bunch of mentors collude to kick any mentors offering helpful advice in the NN, but you can't have a mentor kick another mentor that's spamming nsfw feet fetish lines in the chat without a GM talking to you later.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Makarovv

nowhere in my post did i suggest a parse as in (dps), i could care less for that stuff. i've seen how toxic it can be from different mmo's. i also didn't say the mentors gotta know every mechanic , nor did i say they gotta teach or give advice about the fight/instance. i was suggesting a grading system for mechanics done successfully during the instance and shows you the grade after the duty is complete next to the instance name in duty finder or on the picture template on the right..... Not seeing people flock to wherever the crown is, this is true, most of the time sprouts are just doing sprouts things, which is no biggie. This is just from my experiences, everyone has different experiences, i've seen it multiple times.it gets annoying when it happens. all i said was , for their crown to be turned off automatically for that specific instance that they're not good at, until their personal success rate is up there, not every instance as everyone is assuming. i might've worded it wrong might be the problem.

---

A Parser does more than tells you how much dps you pumped out though. It will tell you if you took avoidable damage from a mechanic you messed up. Along with if you're over healing or not. It's like what ChrysOCE says who and how does your grade system (which others have suggested before.) quantify a person's performance? They could be having an off night, lag, or be distracted. How do you know a wipe happened due to something they did vs enough of the group didn't know (let's be honest care) how to do a mechanic? How many time do they need to show that yes they know to stack for an Ahk Morn, stand on Bismarck's back in order to do damage, or combine the white and black circles Sophia hands four players. Or that one isn't a damn prime number? Before their grade gets better. Is it per mechanic or that roulette run?

If you expect every mentor to know the mechanics of every single dungeon, raid and trial by heart..dont. That is patently idiotic..not to mention impossible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Makarovv

First and foremost , this post is not meant to come off as elitism or anything of the sorts, just some suggestions to improve the system in place. I find it incredibly annoying wiping multiple times in a row in roulettes cause half or more than half the party, in some cases, are made up of sprouts following the mentor that doesn't actually know the mechanics., when your just trying to get through your dailies. I have no problems helping out sprouts, i enjoy it, the problem is the sprout in disguise (aka Mentor) causing the wipes due to the crown. In order to combat this, i have some suggestions:

1. Add a grade system for each instances.
2. Anyone with a (B+) in said instances crowns will show , Anyone with (B), (B-) in said instances crowns will be turned off as soon they zone in.
3. Don't Make the grades hard to bring back up for the instances in case people fail mechanics multiple times.
4. Grade updates after duty is complete.
5. Make achievements for having all instances (extremes and below) At an (A) - give a title and (A+) - gives a Mount.

I believe this will push players/community to want to do better or strive to be a better player. you get the gist of it, im out. Thank you for coming to my ted talk o/

---

Just because not all mentors succeed at content doesn't mean that they are bad mentors. This is is a horrible take. A mentors job is to help new players understand the BASIC levels of gameplay that anyone with enough patience can do. Not extremes, not savage, and not ultimate. Yes they can wipe in a dungeon too. It doesn't mean they don't know of mechanics, or how to play the game. A mentor shouldn't have to be a perfect player with no flaws. Stop it with this harmful take, because it hurts the community. If you think this will only hurt mentors, it will hurt new players, because then every mentor would be a hardcore player, and that isn't everyone's playstyle. It shouldn't even be something to aspire to first. Your first goal with playing the game should be to get through basic content, understand how the game works, and progress on your goals slowly, but surely. All the stuff you said isn't of interest for most new players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Makarovv

I believe this will push players/community to want to do better or strive to be a better player. you get the gist of it, im out. Thank you for coming to my ted talk o/

---

Mentors are simply people who volunteer to be available for assistance. They are not "experts". They are not Paragons. Mentors are there when you want to ask someone something about the game but have no idea where to start to even ask. Ask a mentor. That crown is a "ask me about FFXIV" button and that's it. It's not a certification.

Honestly them linking ANY rewards to the system for the NA game crowd was a bad idea.

Mentors have a variety of roles, OP lemme clue you in on something.

Mentors are not employees. I say this because one sprout ACTUALLY said we had to do these instances unsync for them because "we were SE employees"..you can imagine how THAT was received.

They do not need to be "graded".

They do not need to "undergo assessments"

They are VOLUNTEERS.

So, in all truth, your little "system" will simply annoy mentors to the fact they will take the crown off and not bother in future. All you are doing is abusing their goodwill, which can be withdrawn at a moments notice. I have both craft and combat mentor, TBH, the reason I stepped down was what I see in your post, this idea of entitlement that they need to be 'experts" in every single instance. They arent. No one is.

When relying on a volunteer, who is doing this out of no other reason than to help others, you give that volunteer good reason to walk away. You cant stop them. They arent being paid. So, if I were you, Id be careful with that sense of entitlement.

I DEFY YOU to find me one player in all the playerbase that knows the mechanics of each and every fight by heart.

Quote:

---

1. Add a grade system for each instance.

---

No. This is a game not a job and I dont need to be "graded"

Quote:

---

2. Anyone with a (B+) in said instances crowns will show , Anyone with (B), (B-) in said instances crowns will be turned off as soon they zone in.

---

Do we need to submit resumes as well?

Quote:

---

3. Don't Make the grades hard to bring back up for the instances in case people fail mechanics multiple times.

---

No.

Quote:

---

4. Grade updates after duty is complete.

---

No

Quote:

---

5. Make achievements for having all instances (extremes and below) At an (A) - give a title and (A+) - gives a Mount.

---

No.

Quote:

---

for their crown to be turned off automatically for that specific instance that they're not good at, until their personal success rate is up there

---

No.

Quote:

---

A Parser does more than tells you how much dps you pumped out though. It will tell you if you took avoidable damage from a mechanic you messed up. Along with if you're over healing or not.

---

Then using one of those IS cheating. If this addon is doing more than numbers, i.e calling out mechanics etc, its playing the game for you and thats cheating.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VelKallor

Then using one of those IS cheating. If this addon is doing more than numbers, i.e calling out mechanics etc, its playing the game for you and thats cheating.

---

Base version doesn't do call outs. The base version just reads the battle log and does the math calculations for you. I mean the never used cause the devs don't want it to be for anything but current fights duty recorder also could show you what mechanic you screwed up on just without showing you how much said mechanic hit you for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Expecting a mentor to know the mechanics of every singular duty contained within said roulette, most especially when this includes extreme content, is just simply not pragmatic, this is why the mentor system isn't really feasible in the first place.

Sure, you'll encourage improvement of performance, but this also isn't really pragmatic in a roulette of this scope.

---

Expecting a mentor to know what mechanics look like (A stack marker, a spread marker, an exaflare marker).

yes, i do expect somebody with over 1500+ commendations to know the basic mechanics of the game.

Every single mechanic in this game is repeated, you know need to know around 10 mechanics to know what is going on.

Quote:

---

Expecting a mentor to know what mechanics look like (A stack marker, a spread marker, an exaflare marker).

---

Id agree with this

Quote:

---

yes, i do expect somebody with over 1500+ commendations to know the basic mechanics of the game.

---

Okay..then again I know do re mi fa so la ti do..but I cant use those to write a symphony.

Quote:

---

Every single mechanic in this game is repeated, you know need to know around 10 mechanics to know what is going on

---

Except the combos and each encounter is different. The encounters are not identical.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VelKallor

Then using one of those IS cheating. If this addon is doing more than numbers, i.e calling out mechanics etc, its playing the game for you and thats cheating.

---

Parsers don't call out mechanics or offer suggestions on what to do during a fight. The most a parser will do during the fight is display real time numbers for DPS, HPS, damage taken and the like. But they also copy the battle log and compile information that can be uploaded to an analyzing tool for review after a fight is completed (whether wipe or kill) to see who was getting hit by avoidable damage, etc.

It's the other plug-ins that some players use that do the mechanic call outs.

Quote:

---

Parsers don't call out mechanics or offer suggestions on what to do during a fight. The most a parser will do during the fight is display real time numbers for DPS, HPS, damage taken and the like. But they also copy the battle log and compile information that can be uploaded to an analyzing tool for review after a fight is completed (whether wipe or kill) to see who was getting hit by avoidable damage, etc.

It's the other plug-ins that some players use that do the mechanic call outs.

---

Doesnt matter. Its third party, its illegal to use, plugins or not. Its cheating. Why is it cheating? it gives an unfair advantage to those who dont use it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VelKallor

Doesnt matter. Its third party, its illegal to use, plugins or not. Its cheating. Why is it cheating? it gives an unfair advantage to those who dont use it.

---

A do agree that it is cheating.

Amongst every person i've played with, i can easily say more than 80-90% of them use plugins/mods/parsers.

It is something devs do not want, but they cannot stop it, because they will lose the majority of the playerbase the moment they do something about it. majority of those being Roleplayers.

Battlelog data exists and can be copied out of the game. ACT just automates it. The lack of a program (or excel macro) you can just copy&paste huge parts of the battlelog into is not because it's impossible but because using ACT is just more convenient. There is no unfair advantage happening here, seeing dps live doesnt actually help all that much tbh.

Oh look it's another thread about Mentor Crown again. Everytime these pop up the general consensus is that mentors should know every mechanic, every duty boss, mastered every job and cleared all savage and ultimate fights. Because you know mentors are robots, not actual human beings trying to help out when they are able to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saraide

Battlelog data exists and can be copied out of the game. ACT just automates it. The lack of a program (or excel macro) you can just copy&paste huge parts of the battlelog into is not because it's impossible but because using ACT is just more convenient. There is no unfair advantage happening here, seeing dps live doesnt actually help all that much tbh.

---

Yet it has plugins that DO cheat and DO call out mechanics, and others who dont use that third party addon dont see those...so it is still an unfair advantage.

Saraide: sorry I wont budge on this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VelKallor

Yet it has plugins that DO cheat and DO call out mechanics, and others who dont use that third party addon dont see those...so it is still an unfair advantage.

Saraide: sorry I wont budge on this.

---

okay who asked you to budge?