3rd Party Program might as well be legalized

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Originally Posted by solimiano

Or I can report your satire and try to get you banned a bit from the official forums, depends on my mood tomorrow ;)

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You have a greater chance of seeing this thread get Thanos snapped than you do getting an individual poster banned.

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Originally Posted by solimiano

Or I can report your satire and try to get you banned a bit from the official forums, depends on my mood tomorrow ;)

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And there it is. See what I meant when I said we make the rules? In the N.A. community, cheating isn’t nearly as big an offense as challenging the status quo. It’s why we’ve sheltered cheaters for so long and have integrated plugins so deeply into this game’s culture. Square Enix is the British crown to our continental army, and while we can’t topple their rule on paper, we can nonetheless keep ignoring them while enforcing our own rules here at home. What are they going to do, ban millions of people? Being accosted by your friends, static, and immediate community for not abiding by the status quo is a much more immediate threat to us.

Thanks to our independence, we’ve turned this game from Yoshida’s pet project into ours. There’s so much that we’ve added to the game he has no authority or power over. Come on, does Yoshida even know what Mare or XIVLauncher is? By refusing to do anything substantive about add-ons, he’s relinquished his project into our hands.

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

And there it is. See what I meant when I said we make the rules? In the N.A. community, cheating isn’t nearly as big an offense as challenging the status quo. It’s why we’ve sheltered cheaters for so long and have integrated plugins so deeply into this game’s culture. Square Enix is the British crown to our continental army, and while we can’t topple their rule on paper, we can nonetheless keep ignoring them while enforcing our own rules here at home. What are they going to do, ban millions of people? Being accosted by your friends, static, and immediate community for not abiding by the status quo is a much more immediate threat to us.

Thanks to our independence, we’ve turned this game from Yoshida’s pet project into ours. There’s so much that we’ve added to the game he has no authority or power over. Come on, does Yoshida even know what Mare or XIVLauncher is? By refusing to do anything substantive about add-ons, he’s relinquished his project into our hands.

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Ok ARR Gaius

From the picture, I just see someone crafting with an AFK symbol. I see an option for auto-AFK being set to 5 minutes. I'm pretty sure you can do a stack of 99 in over 5 minutes. So, it would appear AFK due to lack of input. Of course, if they were crafting without Quick Synthesis, that's a different story. And it wouldn't surprise me either.

Part of SE's problem is that they claim they will address botters and cheaters (such as the world-first cheats everyone is talking about), but then they also say that they won't announce the findings of their investigation either. As a player, I just have to assume that nothing is being done. And that is a reasonable assumption.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

From the picture, I just see someone crafting with an AFK symbol. I see an option for auto-AFK being set to 5 minutes. I'm pretty sure you can do a stack of 99 in over 5 minutes. So, it would appear AFK due to lack of input. Of course, if they were crafting without Quick Synthesis, that's a different story. And it wouldn't surprise me either.

Part of SE's problem is that they claim they will address botters and cheaters (such as the world-first cheats everyone is talking about), but then they also say that they won't announce the findings of their investigation either. As a player, I just have to assume that nothing is being done. And that is a reasonable assumption.

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I guess you also ignore the numerous RMT and Illecit activities ban report posted on the launcher that they share frequently. Just yesterday they've banned some accounts

Honestly, what the devs should really do if they want this 'grey zone' to be smashed forever is the following.

1) Make an in-game parser, with restrictions on its use to minimize abuse (party-wide only in extreme/savage/ultimate content and only as an option in pre-formed PF parties, personal only in all other instances, turned off completely in the overworld because there's no realistic need for that there).

2) Make it extremely clear that evidence of any use of third-party programs is subject to a ban.

Honestly, the only reason the 'grey zone' exists and the discourse around third party programs is so bad is because of their reluctance to do anything about parsers, and on some level, refusing to ban people for only parsing until it crosses the line into harassment is recognition of their value to the raiding community. But it's obvious that, as someone who used parsers since the Heavensward days, people have been using the current 'don't show, don't tell' stance regarding that to increasingly push forward with attempting to justify use of other types of third party tools whose sole purpose is actual cheating. People would probably still use third-party parsers for the sake of data collection for FFlogs, but the big thing is that legalizing parsers would rob the ability of people using other third party programs granting actual gameplay advantages to hide behind the current grey zone status quo.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Honestly, what the devs should really do if they want this 'grey zone' to be smashed forever is the following.

1) Make an in-game parser, with restrictions on its use to minimize abuse (party-wide only in extreme/savage/ultimate content and only as an option in pre-formed PF parties, personal only in all other instances, turned off completely in the overworld because there's no realistic need for that there).

2) Make it extremely clear that evidence of any use of third-party programs is subject to a ban.

Honestly, the only reason the 'grey zone' exists and the discourse around third party programs is so bad is because of their reluctance to do anything about parsers. It's obvious as someone who used parsers since the Heavensward days, people have been using the current 'don't show, don't tell' stance regarding that to increasingly push forward with attempting to justify use of other types of third party tools whose sole purpose is actual cheating. People would probably still use third-party parsers for the sake of data collection for FFlogs, but the big thing is that legalizing parsers would rob the ability of people using other third party programs granting actual gameplay advantages to hide behind the current grey zone status quo.

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I'm all in for this, because at that point you are only using the game, official software and not third party software. Implement 10000 mods in the main game for all I care, it's just more stuff to learn and tinker with.
The main problem is using third party software or something not design by the official team. That should terminate the account immediately, permban IP address, mac address, PSN I'd, your personal name and bank details, youre family if it needs to.
Third party add-ons don't belong here.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

we might as well get rid of the police

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We're trying on this one lol.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

turned off completely in the overworld because there's no realistic need for that there.

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striking dummies, my dude.

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Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

striking dummies, my dude.

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Hmm, forgot about that. Maybe Stone/Sky/Sea then.

I mostly mention that because I've tried using parsers in the overworld. From a pragmatic standpoint, there's really no useful data to be gained there outside of striking dummies.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Honestly, what the devs should really do if they want this 'grey zone' to be smashed forever is the following.

1) Make an in-game parser, with restrictions on its use to minimize abuse (party-wide only in extreme/savage/ultimate content and only as an option in pre-formed PF parties, personal only in all other instances, turned off completely in the overworld because there's no realistic need for that there).

2) Make it extremely clear that evidence of any use of third-party programs is subject to a ban.

Honestly, the only reason the 'grey zone' exists and the discourse around third party programs is so bad is because of their reluctance to do anything about parsers. It's obvious as someone who used parsers since the Heavensward days, people have been using the current 'don't show, don't tell' stance regarding that to increasingly push forward with attempting to justify use of other types of third party tools whose sole purpose is actual cheating. People would probably still use third-party parsers for the sake of data collection for FFlogs, but the big thing is that legalizing parsers would rob the ability of people using other third party programs granting actual gameplay advantages to hide behind the current grey zone status quo.

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Unfortunately, this will likely never happen even should they actually attempt to start breaking third party tools, parsers included. The dev team has long fostered a very coddled environment that would be immediately exposed the moment parsing was allowed into the public sphere. They don't want people being excluded for poor performance even if done in a wholly polite and pragmatic way. Which is why they've allowed this grey are to exist. They get the best of both worlds: a parser they don't have to regulate while keeping its existence as the worst kept secret. We've just finally started reaching a point where the lack of any enforcement beyond being blatantly obvious is pushing well beyond their preferred boundaries.

In the end, I suspect absolutely nothing will change and the status quo will continue until 7.1 rolls around and we're back here again with yet another plugin war.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Honestly, what the devs should really do if they want this 'grey zone' to be smashed forever is the following.

1) Make an in-game parser, with restrictions on its use to minimize abuse (party-wide only in extreme/savage/ultimate content and only as an option in pre-formed PF parties, personal only in all other instances, turned off completely in the overworld because there's no realistic need for that there).

2) Make it extremely clear that evidence of any use of third-party programs is subject to a ban.

Honestly, the only reason the 'grey zone' exists and the discourse around third party programs is so bad is because of their reluctance to do anything about parsers, and on some level, refusing to ban people for only parsing until it crosses the line into harassment is recognition of their value to the raiding community. But it's obvious that, as someone who used parsers since the Heavensward days, people have been using the current 'don't show, don't tell' stance regarding that to increasingly push forward with attempting to justify use of other types of third party tools whose sole purpose is actual cheating. People would probably still use third-party parsers for the sake of data collection for FFlogs, but the big thing is that legalizing parsers would rob the ability of people using other third party programs granting actual gameplay advantages to hide behind the current grey zone status quo.

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There isn't a grey zone. 2 is already the case. If you get caught, you get banned. The thing is they don't go looking for people using third party software, you need to make it known and be reported.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

There isn't a grey zone. 2 is already the case. If you get caught, you get banned. The thing is they don't go looking for people using third party software, you need to make it known and be reported.

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They neither enforce nor do anything despite being well aware of ACT and FFlogs' existence. Yoshida has literally said while parsers are prohibited he understands why they're used—likening it to a calculator—and they have no intentions of putting anything like DRM into the game to know what's on your PC. In other words, they won't do anything to stop you so long as you aren't publicly calling people out.

That's what we call a grey area.

If there truly wasn't one they would be actively trying to break every potential third party application the moment they were discovered.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

They neither enforce nor do anything despite being well aware of ACT and FFlogs' existence. Yoshida has literally said while parsers are prohibited he understands why they're used—likening it to a calculator—and they have no intentions of putting anything like DRM into the game to know what's on your PC. In other words, they won't do anything to stop you so long as you aren't publicly calling people out.

That's what we call a grey area.

If there truly wasn't one they would be actively trying to break every potential third party application the moment they were discovered.

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He also said, if you are caught using them, you will be banned, don't get caught.

That's not a grey area. You will be banned if caught using them. It's just very tricky to catch people blatantly using parsers.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

He also said, if you are caught using them, you will be banned, don't get caught.

That's not a grey area. You will be banned if caught using them. It's just very tricky to catch people blatantly using parsers.

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Its a grey area in a way its enforced. They are basically signaling "we don't WANT to punish that, but we have to so don't get caught and you're cool to do whatever; and we don't WANT to put anti-modification measures into the game so don't create a situation that will force corporate hands that guide us". They do nothing to shut down on people who create the mods, and usually only act on the reports when things get extra-public. That is whats grey about it.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

There isn't a grey zone

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There is a gray area, he himself pointed it out. Specifically using some forms of shaders and how you apply ACT to your experience. It's just not what people think, it's not him endorsing or turning a blind eye.

He pointed out that it's best to still maintain a "don't ask, don't tell" policy over them and that people caught will, obviously, be punished. He understood that ACT had its benefits for the raiding scene, but in no way did he endorse them. He just said "I can't stop you from using them, but just don't be dumb and use them for nefarious purposes that will get you banned". That was the gray area he put up: "If you use them, keep it to yourself".

...naturally, people can't keep it to themselves. And that's why repercussions on streamers exists: because they keep acting like they can stream with them on under the guise of "Oh, I'm raiding, I'm not doing anything wrong".

As for shaders, unlike the obvious stuff where mods modify the game files themselves, shaders can just be seen as something that SE didn't put into the game, so it can trick people into thinking that the game really looks like that. Generally what people who take screenshots with shaders do is edit out the copyright line so it doesn't get mistaken for an official piece of the game.

However, even though all this is more or less correct (I'm also no authority on this), it is true that people using and talking about specific kinds of add-ons led to the game implementing them in their own way and reconsider game design. Which on that note, I am all for.

I'd like mechanics to be a bit more recognizable when you have to distinguish them from other markers and from terrain.
I'd like certain parts of the gameplay to be made more visible. I've made a suggestion thread on the UI forums to make the yellow markers for gathering and crafting another colour because they clash really hard with the yellow-tinged map.
I'd like waymarks to have a different font, because that font isn't intuitive to me. And unfortunately, I have a bit of a hard time telling C/3 apart from D/4's colours, one just happens to be lighter than the other.
I'd also like more support for other languages or allowing subtitles for people whose native language isn't EN/DE/FR/JP, such as Spanish or Portuguese.
And much more that is currently available with 3rd party tools, but is otherwise unfortunately invalidated by virtue of being illegal.

Yoshida says to not have a witch hunt because he likely doesn't want to be overwhelmed with minor-case reports, and some instruments are more about QoL for people with problems than people actively trying to get an advantage. Hence the idea of the "gray area": he just doesn't want to care about add-ons that don't have a big impact.

But until those get properly implemented and worked on in FF14 (we do have colourblind mode, it doesn't always work because it's oddly rudimentary and just mutes out colours rather than address the problem of making things distinguishable like we can with changing Friends/FC/NPC name plates)... yeah, it's always going to be a tug-o-war.

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

Its a grey area in a way its enforced. They are basically signaling "we don't WANT to punish that, but we have to so don't get caught and you're cool to do whatever; and we don't WANT to put anti-modification measures into the game so don't create a situation that will force corporate hands that guide us". They do nothing to shut down on people who create the mods, and usually only act on the reports when things get extra-public. That is whats grey about it.

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Please stop trying to muddy the waters. There is no grey area.

You will be banned if caught using parsers.

This is exactly the sort of thing that leads to people getting banned for using parsers, because they are led to believe it's some grey area and they're actually allowed, and they make the stupid mistake of streaming while using them, with the excuse of "oh I thought it was some grey area, it's not fair that I got banned for this, I'm just doing what everyone is doing" and then all their viewers and follows cry out and raid the forums and start this whole debate up again.

Yoshi P has given interviews were he's given his opinion on the uses and validity and morality of different third party software, but every time has clarified, very clearly, that they are all against the ToS. They have to be, because if one is, they all are. They can't go making new rules for each and every third party program that gets written and published. It's that simple.
This is not a moral argument, it is a litigious argument. The rules are clear, you can choose to follow them or not, but the repercussions are real.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Please stop trying to muddy the waters. There is no grey area.

You will be banned if caught using parsers.

This is exactly the sort of thing that leads to people getting banned for using parsers, because they are led to believe it's some grey area and they're actually allowed, and they make the stupid mistake of streaming while using them, with the excuse of "oh I thought it was some grey area, it's not fair that I got banned for this, I'm just doing what everyone is doing" and then all their viewers and follows cry out and raid the forums and start this whole debate up again.

Yoshi P has given interviews were he's given his opinion on the uses and validity and morality of different third party software, but every time has clarified, very clearly, that they are all against the ToS. They have to be, because if one is, they all are. They can't go making new rules for each and every third party program that gets written and published. It's that simple.
This is not a moral argument, it is a litigious argument. The rules are clear, you can choose to follow them or not, but the repercussions are real.

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Oh stop it with the concern trolling.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Please stop trying to muddy the waters. There is no grey area.

You will be banned if caught using parsers.

This is exactly the sort of thing that leads to people getting banned for using parsers, because they are led to believe it's some grey area and they're actually allowed, and they make the stupid mistake of streaming while using them, with the excuse of "oh I thought it was some grey area, it's not fair that I got banned for this, I'm just doing what everyone is doing" and then all their viewers and follows cry out and raid the forums and start this whole debate up again.

Yoshi P has given interviews were he's given his opinion on the uses and validity and morality of different third party software, but every time has clarified, very clearly, that they are all against the ToS. They have to be, because if one is, they all are. They can't go making new rules for each and every third party program that gets written and published. It's that simple.
This is not a moral argument, it is a litigious argument. The rules are clear, you can choose to follow them or not, but the repercussions are real.

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And therein is the contradiction and reason people consider it a grey area. When lead game designer's regularly-voiced views contradict the game's rules and TOS. I am not advocating for use of any modifications, and am kinda against them, even purely graphics-related ones. But even I recognize and see where the root of confusion starts and why community ultimately feels like its a grey area. Yoshi-P isn't just some guy on dev team, he's the face of FF14's development, to the point where people hear his every word as absolute gospel.

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

Its a grey area in a way its enforced. They are basically signaling "we don't WANT to punish that, but we have to so don't get caught and you're cool to do whatever; and we don't WANT to put anti-modification measures into the game so don't create a situation that will force corporate hands that guide us". They do nothing to shut down on people who create the mods, and usually only act on the reports when things get extra-public. That is whats grey about it.

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You're both right, that's the thing.

You're right because they don't want to put anti-modding software into the game and persecute people who use them without being blatant.

But he's right in that it's still considered illegal. So even if they don't persecute it, that line isn't magically erased.

However both can and do coexist. If you use them, the gray area is specifically there to say that they're not actively going to search the internet and figure out who's using them unless caught. And to be caught, you need to be blatant. The gray area was there to distinguish those who passively use ACT and improve versus the guys who harassed people with mods and parses.

Keep in mind the last time he mentioned a gray area, there was a fear of people modding other peoples' characters, taking pictures and then harassing them with it.

That, and to distinguish people who used Mods versus those who used NVidia's shaders. They were two different things, and he wanted to point out that they understood the difference.

That was it, that was all.

I did on my previous post point out that there is a good thing to come out of them and maybe that's in the gray area? But the gray area is just there to tell you that SE won't be actively looking for you using them. As long as you have a pair of working neurons and don't spread it around or cause trouble.

That's it. That's all there is to it. If you get caught using any, you are still risking a ban. But we also need to look at how it's enforced regardless.

And no amount of fearmongering is going to help the situation.

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

And therein is the contradiction and reason people consider it a grey area. When lead game designer's regularly-voiced views contradict the game's rules and TOS. I am not advocating for use of any modifications, and am kinda against them, even purely graphics-related ones. But even I recognize and see where the root of confusion starts and why community ultimately feels like its a grey area. Yoshi-P isn't just some guy on dev team, he's the face of FF14's development, to the point where people hear his every word as absolute gospel.

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They don't contradict the games rules. Opinions are opinions, and rules are rules.

There is a difference between a moral argument, and a very matter of fact litigious system.
Rules are rules, and moral philosophising is not something you can nail down.

There may be some confusion from translations, and maybe there's a cultural issue too, where the west have a tendency to conflate morality (right and wrong) with law (legal and illegal). These are entirely different things.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

They don't contradict the games rules. Opinions are opinions, and rules are rules.

There is a difference between a moral argument, and a very matter of fact litigious system.
Rules are rules, and moral philosophising is not something you can nail down.

There may be some confusion from translations, and maybe there's a cultural issue too, where the west have a tendency to conflate morality (right and wrong) with law (legal and illegal). These are entirely different things.

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As I said, I'm not arguing for whether its grey or not, far as I see its really not. But the perception of it being grey is very prevalent on both sides of the aisle and its important to recognize and see WHY its seen that way if solution to the community's divide on the issue is ever to be found, though that in itself is doubtful.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

and they have no intentions of putting anything like DRM into the game to know what's on your PC. In other words, they won't do anything to stop you so long as you aren't publicly calling people out.

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They don't put DRM into the game to know what's on your PC because it's illegal in a number of countries where they have subscribers.

So, can't peek at your PC and the other half the playerbase can't use third-party tools. About the only thing they can do (and they don't report it to the general public) is ban players for activities tied to those tools. Of course, if the playerbase finds out because, well, it gets announced on social media by those banned, we suddenly get tons of extremely pious players invoking "grey area!" as an excuse.

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If there truly wasn't one they would be actively trying to break every potential third party application the moment they were discovered.

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And that is the straight and narrow path for a gaming company to go broke.

This modding vs anti-modding discourse is boring as sin.

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Originally Posted by Leemon

Title says it all. Latest Ultimate fiasco, we all know everyone uses it, it just so happens that the world first got caught. And considering the effort they pour into clearing, I still respect them.

But this?

https://i.ibb.co/Jx4KFqN/agag.png
The video

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shorturl.at/gPS15

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This is just pure laziness and against the spirit of actually playing the game. Crafters are one of the easiest job to level already. Doing this is just.. I don't know how to describe it anymore, and moreover doing it in the public where everyone, including new players, can see, send the wrong message. I reported by the way, once per day for nearly a week. She's still there. If this gives you more context, this is happening in Kujata

Just legalize it already, you're fighting a losing battle.

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People have been using this since heavensward and square enix have done nothing to stop it.

I had a falling out with one of my old FC's on Tonberry because the FC leader would 24/7 autocraft in his locked FC room then brag about how rich he was.

Absolutely pathetic way to play the game, he was just botting.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

There's no way the TC isn't joking here... right?
Macro's aren't cheats or botting guys, macro's are literally in the game.

Either way, there may be several plugin features that should be in the game, but allowing all third party tools is absolutely a no from me.
The game is supposed to be equally playable between PC and console. PC can 'get away' with a lot of things that are just QoL improvements (should be in the game) or just cosmetic (technically not hurting anyone) but when it provides an advantage, it goes against the spirit of equal presentation between PC and console.

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This isn't a macro, a macro lasts for 15 lines of text then stops.

What this person is using is a conjunction of macros and a crafting bot that selects the recipe and starts the macro after x seconds.
Its a well known 3rd party tool that's existed since heavensward, and 100% should be banned for using it as it is botting.

My old FC leader used this 24/7 and never got banned, and made billions of gil.
its disgusting that people can do this and not get punished.

ACT as I understand it's use here is mostly just a data aggregator. It is just taking data that is readily given to you through the battle log and putting it in a format that is useful for players, ACT does not need to do anything special to obtain this data, just read the battle log. Some of the add-ons used by the TOP team seem to be giving AOE markers for mechanics that are not supposed to have them and marking AOEs before the game itself does, giving them distinct advantages over how it was supposed to be experienced. And I understand his sentiment, if teams are going to keep finding ways to make this content easier then why bother continuing to spend time and effort designing it?

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

People have been using this since heavensward and square enix have done nothing to stop it.

I had a falling out with one of my old FC's on Tonberry because the FC leader would 24/7 autocraft in his locked FC room then brag about how rich he was.

Absolutely pathetic way to play the game, he was just botting.

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It's taken out the fun I had with crafting. They use a bot program to gather while they sleep, another program to craft while they work and probably another one to undercut every second during the evening prime time. There is no way for me to compete with that unless I started using bots myself. I made a couple of the new skirts to sell when the mats cost 1 million and after being auto-undercut for two weeks I was now selling for an 80% loss and just crashed the market to get rid of the items before it became a 100% loss.

And people will defend this because they get cheap items. I have no respect for the player base anymore because half of them are cheaters and the other half supports cheating, and yet they act holier than thou when it comes to things they dislike.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

This isn't a macro, a macro lasts for 15 lines of text then stops.

What this person is using is a conjunction of macros and a crafting bot that selects the recipe and starts the macro after x seconds.
Its a well known 3rd party tool that's existed since heavensward, and 100% should be banned for using it as it is botting.

My old FC leader used this 24/7 and never got banned, and made billions of gil.
its disgusting that people can do this and not get punished.

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Thank you for explaining. Haven't dabbled in crafting much so the most I knew about it was macros.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

There's no way the TC isn't joking here... right?
Macro's aren't cheats or botting guys, macro's are literally in the game.

Either way, there may be several plugin features that should be in the game, but allowing all third party tools is absolutely a no from me.
The game is supposed to be equally playable between PC and console. PC can 'get away' with a lot of things that are just QoL improvements (should be in the game) or just cosmetic (technically not hurting anyone) but when it provides an advantage, it goes against the spirit of equal presentation between PC and console.

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That's how I see it. But there is always someone pushing the envelope or making ridiculous statements like now we need to ban Discord.

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Originally Posted by Leemon

Fair, to give you a picture it's someone being away from their PC/console yet still can craft with macro (not quick synth). If you know how to add media here, I'll gladly edit and show it so everyone can see

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It's pretty stupid that I've encountered people gathering while maintaining AFK status on multiple occasions, yet no amount of reporting ever got them banned even after several weeks of the behavior.

It gives me the impression that SE is either using extremely faulty detection methods or they just don't even bother investigating reports unless a certain amount are targeted at the same player.