Stop making bosses Teleport to center of arena for every mechanic!

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

That's like saying we should remove esuna-able debuffs, damage over time, etc. because there are certain healers that cant handle it or even have esuna on their hotbar. I'm not sure why we should cater to the "meat head brain dead tanks" in high-end content such as savage...

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And look at the last dungeon, a whole set of esunable doom mechanics, despite most healers never using esuna.

Hell, the other day I had a nightmare neverending p8n that took half an hour cause the dps was just so low and healths went all the way down at any little hit. So what, if people not knowing how to position is a good reason to remove positioning cause casuals, should we just reduce drastically the hp of bosses, remove mechanics that deal damage and all just because people in df aren't so good at their class or don't gear up?

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Originally Posted by TomsYoungerBro

That's like saying we should remove esuna-able debuffs, damage over time, etc. because there are certain healers that cant handle it or even have esuna on their hotbar. I'm not sure why we should cater to the "meat head brain dead tanks" in high-end content such as savage...





Then why does it also happen in content that doesn't have trusts in mind aka normal and savage raids?

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What??? lol I am talking common sense..

Would be nice for Tanks to get to do Tank things, if they keep things as they are going right now, then might as well give Tanks a DPS kit with only few big damage mitigation cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

Would be nice for Tanks to get to do Tank things, if they keep things as they are going right now, then might as well give Tanks a DPS kit with only few big damage mitigation cooldowns.

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They do have that though.

They can't go further and do things like positionals because sometime they are stuck in front of the boss.

I think there's a wider conversation you could have about tanks where 95% of the fight they're not really doing tank things, for this tier at least. You have the obligatory 3-4 TBs per fight that you always hit a bunch of mits for and autos which aren't super frequent and usually more for the healer to handle, but outside of those you're a gimped melee most of the fight doing the exact same mechanics everyone else is doing.

Lots of people not really owning up to the consequences of the changes they cried for. It's hilarious. Dev listen to feedback? Everything bad that happens afterward is their fault. They don't listen to feedback? The devs don't listen to our concerns when we are trying to make the game better.


Effectively the statement is "when things go right I get credit and when they go wrong it's someone else's fault."

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Originally Posted by baklava151

I think there's a wider conversation you could have about tanks where 95% of the fight they're not really doing tank things, for this tier at least. You have the obligatory 3-4 TBs per fight that you always hit a bunch of mits for and autos which aren't super frequent and usually more for the healer to handle, but outside of those you're a gimped melee most of the fight doing the exact same mechanics everyone else is doing.

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That's actually a really good point. There have been a lot of fights in the past where the tanks do completely different - sometimes more distracting mechanics that they wouldn't give to the DPS who are really busy.

Although the tank busters are more of a handful than previous ones and quite frequent, having dots, being double-busters or double-swaps one after the other for each tank, being RNG like in P6S and P7S where it might be one type of tank buster or another type. In P8S Part 2 there is the mechanic of being together for autos but not for the buster. In the previous tier, the P1S had us knocked back while doing swaps, RNG between stack and flare, or did the knockback swap in the middle of other mechanics to distract you. P3S had us grabbing tethers from the party for TBs. These unique mechanics are all variations of tank busters, but to be fair, there is more to consider with them than the old kind that didn't have dots, RNG or require double swaps.

It does feel like making unique mechanics is probably harder, since there isn't a lot of room anymore with those giant hitboxes, but maybe it's just SE isn't giving me much inspiration yet.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

Lots of people not really owning up to the consequences of the changes they cried for. It's hilarious. Dev listen to feedback? Everything bad that happens afterward is their fault. They don't listen to feedback? The devs don't listen to our concerns when we are trying to make the game better.

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I agree with this for most things, especially most of the job action changes, which even if you disagree stemmed from people who were asking for them. Like how the requests to get rid of parry and physical blocks led to the homogenization of mitigation, because things like parry and physical/magical are what made them unique.

Agreed. If it's just gonna lock in the center every time anyway, might as well make it a wall boss. I tanked the new dungeon and felt nothing but disappointment.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

At the end of the day it's still the devs putting changes in place, down to every little detail. To say players are to blame when the power to make decisions is not in the players' hands whatsoever is just wrong. The devs make the game, hold them responsible for changes that are done (good and bad ones).

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When it comes to a lot of things, especially lately, I would argue that both parties are to blame.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

Lots of people not really owning up to the consequences of the changes they cried for. It's hilarious. Dev listen to feedback? Everything bad that happens afterward is their fault. They don't listen to feedback? The devs don't listen to our concerns when we are trying to make the game better.


Effectively the statement is "when things go right I get credit and when they go wrong it's someone else's fault."

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Its honestly the hypocrisy with the general community. People just dont want to admit that maybe they were wrong and rather just act like babies and play the blame game on the team. Again, not trying to excuse the development team for their decisions and implementations for them, but with this team that does indeed take feedback and communicate to us a lot more than most other MMO titles, we also should expect that perhaps many of our desires for this game isnt as well thought out.

I'll admit, Im part of this crowd that wanted the combat and fight design to be easier to follow and it clearly shows with what we have currently.

Bosses moving back to the center isn't that much of an issue. The issue is and has always been DPS check/enrage.

The savage fights of late have been designed to prevent cheese, and be more fair for the ENTIRE group. If the boss has a very specific mechanic to deal with let's say...P1S intemperance. That mechanic is design specially for ALL party members to be in max melee and hit the boss. If you get what is being suggested where the MT needs to not only turn the boss just right, but also move the boss in an exact location for a very specific mechanic, and allowing ALL party members to be in max melee. Sheesh.

I like a challenge as much as the next person...but stutter stepping and moving back and forth to move a boss the size of King Kong sounds....dumb. Not only that but DPS having to move just to keep uptime, while some still need to do positionals on a moving target....I can hear it now. "TANK...STOP MOVING UGH!!!"

This feels like a double edge sword honestly. Like a...be careful what you wish for.

Again a lot of this can go back to a DPS check style design of fights where everything needs to be fair for ALL roles involved. When each fight has a literal time limit for every savage, ultimate, extreme encounter...and you miss 1 to 3 GCD's due to the tank moving the boss 4-5 times per fight...your not going to hit enrage at all.

Pinax in P4S comes to mind...that need some type of tank movement...and like...really fast deciphering for an uptime strategy. PS3 also had a STUPID amount of boss positioning for uptime strats....and EVERYBODY hated that fight...god knows how many players hit enrage on that....and quite a bit of was due to boss positioning for uptime.

I think what we have now is a good balance. Not every single savage fight should be sweaty gamer level...but 1 per tier I would say. Maybe I like what we have now. I suppose I don't swoon over the past like other people do. I like pushing the game in better direction, even if that means sacrificing certain things to be replaced with new and interesting mechanics.

I could care less about dungeons....they are a means to an end in tomes and leveling. Nothing more....they serve no immediate challenge or danger unless you fall asleep. They quit being difficult back in ARR, when Hard mode...was actually hard. People STILL fail to Haukke Manor (hard) final boss.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Ok next time I see you cry about something I dont mind and it happens to be done in this game I know who exactly who to blame. Sure they make the decisions but ultimately its people who force their hand

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No one is putting a gun to their heads and saying "DO THIS NOW" so I dunno what the hell you're on about lmfao.
The devs, at the end of the day, have say. We don't have any ability to alter this games combat.
They choose to water this game down and make it piss easy, for example. No one asked for this.
A lot are actually sick of the same boring, generic predicable crap for 10 years.
God forbid we're sick of it and want some change.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Bosses moving back to the center isn't that much of an issue. The issue is and has always been DPS check/enrage.

The savage fights of late have been designed to prevent cheese, and be more fair for the ENTIRE group. If the boss has a very specific mechanic to deal with let's say...P1S intemperance. That mechanic is design specially for ALL party members to be in max melee and hit the boss. If you get what is being suggested where the MT needs to not only turn the boss just right, but also move the boss in an exact location for a very specific mechanic, and allowing ALL party members to be in max melee. Sheesh.

I like a challenge as much as the next person...but stutter stepping and moving back and forth to move a boss the size of King Kong sounds....dumb. Not only that but DPS having to move just to keep uptime, while some still need to do positionals on a moving target....I can hear it now. "TANK...STOP MOVING UGH!!!"

This feels like a double edge sword honestly. Like a...be careful what you wish for.

Again a lot of this can go back to a DPS check style design of fights where everything needs to be fair for ALL roles involved. When each fight has a literal time limit for every savage, ultimate, extreme encounter...and you miss 1 to 3 GCD's due to the tank moving the boss 4-5 times per fight...your not going to hit enrage at all.

Pinax in P4S comes to mind...that need some type of tank movement...and like...really fast deciphering for an uptime strategy. PS3 also had a STUPID amount of boss positioning for uptime strats....and EVERYBODY hated that fight...god knows how many players hit enrage on that....and quite a bit of was due to boss positioning for uptime.

I think what we have now is a good balance. Not every single savage fight should be sweaty gamer level...but 1 per tier I would say. Maybe I like what we have now. I suppose I don't swoon over the past like other people do. I like pushing the game in better direction, even if that means sacrificing certain things to be replaced with new and interesting mechanics.

I could care less about dungeons....they are a means to an end in tomes and leveling. Nothing more....they serve no immediate challenge or danger unless you fall asleep. They quit being difficult back in ARR, when Hard mode...was actually hard. People STILL fail to Haukke Manor (hard) final boss.

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The "Tank stops moving ugh" Seen that a few times in DF. Mt just randomly dragging the boss around, spinning the boss, facing the boss at the raid all for no apparent reason.

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Originally Posted by Jybril

No one is putting a gun to their heads and saying "DO THIS NOW" so I dunno what the hell you're on about lmfao.
The devs, at the end of the day, have say. We don't have any ability to alter this games combat.
They choose to water this game down and make it piss easy, for example. No one asked for this.
A lot are actually sick of the same boring, generic predicable crap for 10 years.
God forbid we're sick of it and want some change.

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People have indeed asked for this. Thats my main argument, nobody is pointing a gun at them rather, a majority of players have been asking for a lot of things that shift into the direction of the state of the current game, me included. If that wasnt the case then we wouldnt even be providing feedback in the first place.

There's a lot of neat ideas that this game previously had like dungeons being more explorable, elemental resistances, cross-class skills, normal raids that had some bit of exploration etc and yet all of those slowly got axed over the years because the majority didnt necessarily like them which shifted focus and direction of what the game is now.

I'm in favor of this. I barely ever play tank but I actually hate this as a melee dps. The boss suddenly moving to the center can cause a GCD roll back if it moves into me.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

That's actually a really good point. There have been a lot of fights in the past where the tanks do completely different - sometimes more distracting mechanics that they wouldn't give to the DPS who are really busy.

Although the tank busters are more of a handful than previous ones and quite frequent, having dots, being double-busters or double-swaps one after the other for each tank, being RNG like in P6S and P7S where it might be one type of tank buster or another type. In P8S Part 2 there is the mechanic of being together for autos but not for the buster. In the previous tier, the P1S had us knocked back while doing swaps, RNG between stack and flare, or did the knockback swap in the middle of other mechanics to distract you. P3S had us grabbing tethers from the party for TBs. These unique mechanics are all variations of tank busters, but to be fair, there is more to consider with them than the old kind that didn't have dots, RNG or require double swaps.

It does feel like making unique mechanics is probably harder, since there isn't a lot of room anymore with those giant hitboxes, but maybe it's just SE isn't giving me much inspiration yet.

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Yeah I definitely don't want to downplay the TBs because they do get creative with them and especially this tier you had to be smarter with your mits to deal with them, but I still feel like there could be more going on outside of those.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

Agreed. If it's just gonna lock in the center every time anyway, might as well make it a wall boss. I tanked the new dungeon and felt nothing but disappointment.

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I normally cared for savage + difficulty but holy f*k that new dungeon is annoying, boss zigzag around area, ends at edge...okay let me reposition for melee....NOPE ...boss teleported to center 3 sec later....really annoying.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Bosses moving back to the center isn't that much of an issue. The issue is and has always been DPS check/enrage.

The savage fights of late have been designed to prevent cheese, and be more fair for the ENTIRE group. If the boss has a very specific mechanic to deal with let's say...P1S intemperance. That mechanic is design specially for ALL party members to be in max melee and hit the boss. If you get what is being suggested where the MT needs to not only turn the boss just right, but also move the boss in an exact location for a very specific mechanic, and allowing ALL party members to be in max melee. Sheesh.

I like a challenge as much as the next person...but stutter stepping and moving back and forth to move a boss the size of King Kong sounds....dumb. Not only that but DPS having to move just to keep uptime, while some still need to do positionals on a moving target....I can hear it now. "TANK...STOP MOVING UGH!!!"

This feels like a double edge sword honestly. Like a...be careful what you wish for.

Again a lot of this can go back to a DPS check style design of fights where everything needs to be fair for ALL roles involved. When each fight has a literal time limit for every savage, ultimate, extreme encounter...and you miss 1 to 3 GCD's due to the tank moving the boss 4-5 times per fight...your not going to hit enrage at all.

Pinax in P4S comes to mind...that need some type of tank movement...and like...really fast deciphering for an uptime strategy. PS3 also had a STUPID amount of boss positioning for uptime strats....and EVERYBODY hated that fight...god knows how many players hit enrage on that....and quite a bit of was due to boss positioning for uptime.

I think what we have now is a good balance. Not every single savage fight should be sweaty gamer level...but 1 per tier I would say. Maybe I like what we have now. I suppose I don't swoon over the past like other people do. I like pushing the game in better direction, even if that means sacrificing certain things to be replaced with new and interesting mechanics.

I could care less about dungeons....they are a means to an end in tomes and leveling. Nothing more....they serve no immediate challenge or danger unless you fall asleep. They quit being difficult back in ARR, when Hard mode...was actually hard. People STILL fail to Haukke Manor (hard) final boss.

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ngl though, having a striking dummy for a boss sucks. especially when your rotation is about as interesting as a 2 piece puzzle.


stutter stepping bosses, pre-positioning bosses, moving bosses into specific areas to resolve sets of mechanics to generate increased uptime for the party, flipping the boss for positionals or keeping a boss faced one direction until a cast begins to then dodge the mechanic on the server tick to meet back with the party for - again - positionals, etc... all felt rewarding to accomplish and made tanking an actual role. it added that extra layer of a thought process to playing the game.

dps whining about a tank messing up boss movement doesn't sound like an argument to me, since the logical conclusion would be to make the game un-failable and have such a low ceiling it's flush with the floor. and there's no fun in that. it's like someone complaining about terrible dps players and coming to the conclusion the dps role should really only have 3 buttons to use, because it's frustrating to get the dps who don't know how to push things in order.

but i mean, i also played the game when there was some modicum of boss positioning and any fight that had more of it was a favorite. it outweighed the negatives massively, as far as i'm concerned.

and i will say, p3s was a lot of fun, even if i was predominately playing melee dps in pf. the movement made me have to do more thinking than performing a striking dummy rotation. i actually... had to think about my gap closer... or consider when i used true north... and then when i tanked it, i had a lot of fun moving the boss to the different uptime spots.

people didn't suck at it/struggle with it due to tank movement, either. it was mostly how nobody knew how not to kill each other on the the ash plume mechanic. or ate shit to the fire tornado due to poor baiting. or didn't know how to walk in a straight line. or stand in a line. and the red arena. i can't think of a wipe due to the tank having the boss somewhere poor for a few gcd's - hitting enrage means there's a bit more going on than that being the primary concern. (I guess the tank tethers? but that's not related to boss movement, that's related to people not actually knowing how those tethers worked -- and people got better at them because... they had to kill the party a few times while learning c: is what it is, everyone fucks up and kills the party at some point. everyone in this thread is responsible for more than 1 wipe)

* Also want to add, stutter stepping is for the melee dps. bosses natively move faster than the player character, stutter stepping staggers the boss's speed so melee dps just have to hold w or tap w depending on distance to keep full uptime. if stutter stepping is taking the boss out of melee dps range, either you're not stutter stepping or the melee dps aren't using their movement keys when walking is sometimes required in a fight.