Ban Dragoon and DRK from Frontline or At least Nerf Drg's LB

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

Is this combo an exploit? Yes.

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You have some weird obscure definition of exploit. If 100 people on in that 5-yalm radius than the damage is absolutely intended. If not, the dev team would have put a cap on the number of people it can hit or had fall off after a certain number of targets just like other skills in the game have.



I don't know your D/C, but I've encountered the combo enough to know how to play against it. It's not unbeatable.

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Originally Posted by Middie

This is from another thread, but I still think it's valid.

"Frontlines seems to be defined by the DRK tactic, at least on OCE, and I don't see that as exactly healthy PVP balance that there is such a dominant tactic."

Currently, at least to me, the DRK tactic is so dominant, it defines how you play FL. Follow the DRK, support the DRK, that's how you increase you chances to win games.

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I agree with you here. This single tactic shouldn't define the meta of the whole mode. There's a couple of things SE could do the fix it. I don't know if they will because FL balance is always wonky.


Anyone saying that FL isn't balance so you shouldn't care don't realize how dead a mode can get from abuse. And the more miserable it gets, the more likely SE is to kill the things people have fun with. This is why CC is solo queue and why FL parties are limited to 4 people and forced freelancer.

*playing against it*
Who are you trying to convince? You always get stunned the very second you get pulled in, you can't guard, you can't run away, you can't purify.
Dude just stay far away from everyone else, so far you can't hit anyone.

Really, the only thing I'd want changed about DRG is making the indicator for their LB more obvious as opposed to a largely translucent circle that's going to be drowned out by all the visual effects.

I've long since learned to eyeball the enemy team's gauges so I can immediately tell when they've popped their LB and guard in response but more visual clarity on something that can easily shift the pace of a match wouldn't hurt.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Sorry for the pet peeve, but DRG LB is "not" 30,000 in Frontline in 5y radius. It is 21000 vs ranged, 12000 vs melee. Even with Geirskogul up that is 26500 for ranged, 15000 vs melee. Only combining Geirskogul with Battle High 5 or other buffs in your party (Astrologian LB or Balance card, Bard Apex + Blast Arrow) does the amount actually reach obscene levels of 40,000+ vs ranged and 25,000+ vs melee.

At the point where you are engaging into a team with Battle High 5 stacked to every rank and order you may need to think about bringing Paladins for Phalanx, Sages for Mesotes or other possible defensives and hold Guard for such onslaughts.

I don't like how it currently works either and I personally still think that Limit Break should NOT charge outside of combat, let alone from doing nothing while in combat, but we gotta deal with it. They will never ever exclude specific jobs from playing their game. At most, they can shift around the damage and mitigation scaling from large-scale pvp.

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this was previously explained, by myself in fact, and was brushed off and ignored. i just hit a pack of people at BH1 with the dragoon thing and saw a bunch of numbers still starting with "1". so much for that "45k". strange to me that after the OP's 100000 games they have played, they have not figured out how BH works, or the new damage mitigations. or to not stand in a giant deathball

Well the one thing that makes Frontline bad for one is Guard, makes a lot of jobs have the ability to jump in, and do whatever they want without any danger, I play with Bard, i deal no dmg at all, i have no ability to finish anyone, everything i do needs to be timed, meanwhile Samurai goes in and kills with 1 hit , Drg jumps in and gets insane dmg that gets 80% of your Hp... Dark Knight has no risk in using it's skills at all, almost every mele job has more dmg in range than my Bard... makes no sense.

What gets me mostly killed by DRK is getting pulled from gods know where which it is disorienting to have.

Of course if they have a Dancer or Reaper, well... just pray they have no coordination, yeah lol

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

I'd rather deal with Paladin's Cover than this cheap abuse of using countdown to land everything at the same time and delete the other teams.

Regardless whether I'm with the GC that abuse this cheap trick or against them, both experience are awful and upsetting so many people that participate in this mode.

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Tell what your main job is so I can campaign to have it banned from frontline as well. Leave us drgs out of your nonsense ffs

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Originally Posted by Hik3n

Well the one thing that makes Frontline bad for one is Guard, makes a lot of jobs have the ability to jump in, and do whatever they want without any danger, I play with Bard, i deal no dmg at all, i have no ability to finish anyone, everything i do needs to be timed, meanwhile Samurai goes in and kills with 1 hit , Drg jumps in and gets insane dmg that gets 80% of your Hp... Dark Knight has no risk in using it's skills at all, almost every mele job has more dmg in range than my Bard... makes no sense.

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BRD actually has a pretty important job and it's not damage. It's silence. Timing it is the single most game changing thing BRD does aside from keeping buffs up. That silence will stop a WAR/DNC/RPR LB from stripping your team of guard during the onslaught. If you get REALLY good at timing it, you can silence between the time a DRK pulls and their follow up that binds, which will destroy the whole combo.



Is it as braindead as a melee? No. But you can still do great things. It's just not going to be dmg.

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Originally Posted by Hik3n

Well the one thing that makes Frontline bad for one is Guard, makes a lot of jobs have the ability to jump in, and do whatever they want without any danger, I play with Bard, i deal no dmg at all, i have no ability to finish anyone, everything i do needs to be timed, meanwhile Samurai goes in and kills with 1 hit , Drg jumps in and gets insane dmg that gets 80% of your Hp... Dark Knight has no risk in using it's skills at all, almost every mele job has more dmg in range than my Bard... makes no sense.

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Ah damn i missed this one to reply and as someone who played Bard a lot at start, i tell you that it is an amazing team fighter.
BubblyBoar already said many things but it is a reminder you are a ranged fighter and Bard excels at staying as far as possible.

You have a silence that can shut down someone diving in, you have a bind that can be used both offensively and defensively and constant buffs.
This also depends on your team comp as well, so do not think too hard on damage, you are there to make sure your squad has an easier time killing enemies for you.

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Originally Posted by Naizakane

I think we should nerf Guard in Frontlines or ban it from being used. It's so unfair that those poor DRGs put so much effort into co-ordinating their LBs, only for their targets to counter the entire play with one single button that gives a ridiculous 90% damage reduction. /s

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i'm staying this as DRG we are not op you can guard and tank 90% less dmg do i think it sucks sure but it's no like i'm sam and can insta kill threw guard if set up right

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

I'd rather deal with Paladin's Cover than this cheap abuse of using countdown to land everything at the same time and delete the other teams.

Regardless whether I'm with the GC that abuse this cheap trick or against them, both experience are awful and upsetting so many people that participate in this mode.

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the fact that you are complaining about this means you lack eyesight or just are very unlucky during fights.

Complaining about DRG being OP made me laugh.

Seriously.

Sam, if played correctly, can just one shot a bunch of people, regarless for Health or Guard
Ninja can instakill in streak under 50% HP

But jumping in the middle of the enemy's army using a powerfull LB that can be countered (Pretty easily in fact) is overpowered ?

Come on...

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Originally Posted by Dionysius

It was worse than that, 3-4 DRKS with 5 other tanks and 7 DRGs with 15+ kills. Whole 24 group with BH5.
They just need to queue at the same time for a chance to join same GC which entirely problem on it's own.

This is not skill issue, this is messed up balance problem.
They nerfed SMN when they got too OP.
For comparison SMN only deal 18,000 and DRG 30,000. On top of that SMN only get -30% dmg taken while DRG -60%.
This dmg taken for DRG is also another problem. It's a range job that advertised as melee. They just wait for LB and never engage in melee combat.

Add another 50% from BH5, they easily wiped both GCs with 45,000 dmg just from 1 DRG.

Anyway even if they were to come up with something, it will take 7 months to do it (PLD Cover).
Please do better sqex.

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Mele jobs in this game, by default play as a ranged... a mele job is one when they need to be 2-3 steps from you to hit anything, in this game it's like 10+ steps and anyone can hit you. And the best ranged job in PVP right now is Ninja( yes it's a mele, but it's better then every ranged job combined). Salted Earth for DK has a massive range, it's almost 3 times the range of the animation, it makes no sense at all. For example mele jobs have skills to jump on you, they can jump from maximum range... , Ninja has a skill to jump in any direction, and it's range is at max+ they get a buff to be invisible...., some jobs have no danger factor when they go in any fight and every mele has dmg reduction , way more than ranged, and some of them are way better at range than an actual one... the entire things is just stupid.

For every match you run into a coordinated team with drk and drgs, note that those drk and drgs probably went many matches where people would not follow up at all, or refuse to fight.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

For every match you run into a coordinated team with drk and drgs, note that those drk and drgs probably went many matches where people would not follow up at all, or refuse to fight.

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Or even better, people complaining about drk + drg while playing something like mch

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Originally Posted by Naizakane

Or even better, people complaining about drk + drg while playing something like mch

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Oh God yeah, it is rich when players with cc to straight up ruin the setup of just drg and drk. Now if it is drg drk whm warrior that can be straight up frustrating when played right. Did this last night, even still far from unbeatable.

I won’t claim to be anything other than a base casual pvp’er, but Samurai’s LB is the only thing I’d say feels a bit ‘overpowered’. It’s not the effect itself I feel is too much but having it also be an aoe seems a bit too much lol. Then again, it’s also conditional and only like 5y radius so it’s not like they’re going to wipe out entire alliances with it.

DRKs are a pain in the ass but I feel like that’s kind of the point of PvP tanks, defending/assisting allies by pressuring/disrupting the enemy enough for the dps to beat them up lol. Like, it’s basically their job to be annoying lol

As for Dragoons once you realise you can flash guard their lb they become much less threatening lol

Sounds like a Skill Issue.

Tell me what job? If you get pulled in and koed. You can go back and learn to press guard when your pulled in.

We have counterplay here - WHM can get pulled in and guard then poly the del- rendering them immune so your team mates can escape.

Let's just get it straight. There is absolutely no reason anyone should have the skill kit they currently have and also have damage reduction. It's not about banning, it's about Functionality across multiple modes. A zerg fest isn't cutting it.

The pull is fine in a vacuum.
Gets annoying when you get pulled 3-4 times in a row. DRK stacking is getting more and more popular.
But that applies to lots of things, so eh. Gotta deal.

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Originally Posted by Oni_Akuma

Let's just get it straight. There is absolutely no reason anyone should have the skill kit they currently have and also have damage reduction. It's not about banning, it's about Functionality across multiple modes. A zerg fest isn't cutting it.

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lmao what?

The response is always "DRK isn't broken. You just have to plan battles around them." If you lag and it gets through then your whole team is wrecked by a one person catastrophe. More often than not, it gets through because initiating is faster than reacting. No other job gets that sort of treatment.

Ban every job its literal garbage this expac outside of CC

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Originally Posted by Kansene

The pull is fine in a vacuum.
Gets annoying when you get pulled 3-4 times in a row. DRK stacking is getting more and more popular.
But that applies to lots of things, so eh. Gotta deal.

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Could they add a pull in resist after the first pull? It's pretty annoying to escape the first only to be pulled in 3 and 4 times

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Originally Posted by SpritePR

Could they add a pull in resist after the first pull? It's pretty annoying to escape the first only to be pulled in 3 and 4 times

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They could, not only for Knockback/Draw-in but also all other forms of crowd control. Prior to 6.1 suffering from crowd control would give you 10 seconds of being unaffected by the same debuff in a row. Knockback & Draw-In counted as one and worked the same.

They could make this a feature in Frontlines and possibly Rival Wings again.

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Originally Posted by Kansene

The pull is fine in a vacuum.
Gets annoying when you get pulled 3-4 times in a row. DRK stacking is getting more and more popular.
But that applies to lots of things, so eh. Gotta deal.

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Purify should honestly not require the stupid cleanse and affect all kb/drawins imo

Man, l just gave up at this point. I just dream walk and get my roulette bonus. If l want to have fun, 5v5 is what l do.

People in here saying DRG and DRK spams can be countered 'easily' are being extremely disingenuous or simply do not care. Most likely the players that are queuing with friends doing it. lol
You can say you do not want it nerfed without the pretending. Nobody will be mad at you but drop the faced. You know it's busted.

I think they either need to flat out nerf Skyshatter in general. There's no reason an AoE should have the potency almost equivalent to a Marksman's Spite at the epicenter and the same Bahamut's Megaflare in the remaining area, which can be damage boosted with one of their own skills. AND they get massive shield's. To even force the enemy team to guard is such a powerful ability in general, even if it just hits guarded enemies, because you can play around that with any CC LB, like WAR's, RPR's or DNC's, and then go for your kills. I'm unsure what they can really do for Salted Earth. Maybe even just replace the bind with a heavy in the AoE and/or make the draw-in radius smaller. Unsure what they'll do in the end, but here's to hoping they finally make some good changes and not buff/nerf some job that really doesn't need them.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

They could, not only for Knockback/Draw-in but also all other forms of crowd control. Prior to 6.1 suffering from crowd control would give you 10 seconds of being unaffected by the same debuff in a row. Knockback & Draw-In counted as one and worked the same.

They could make this a feature in Frontlines and possibly Rival Wings again.

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I would love to see this.

I didn't get into PvP here until they did the rework, and while I didn't have a problem with skills such as the DRK pull initially, I do feel that it is getting more and more... obnoxious, I guess? Giving us an immunity even for a few seconds after a pull-in, knockback or CC feels like it would make Frontlines much more enjoyable overall.

to me the annoying part is those who organise a group to act like a premade
or rather not be on their side

DRK is the problem imo, not DRG.

I think the pull in shit needs to be gotten rid of, it's far too obnoxious to deal with and has way too many ridiculous obviously unintended uses, which we've seen on Borderlands when it was playable and on Rival Wings with the train, too.

My real opinion however is to remove DRK from PvP, obnoxious job with nothing fun about it to play with or play against.

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

DRK is the problem imo, not DRG.

I think the pull in shit needs to be gotten rid of, it's far too obnoxious to deal with and has way too many ridiculous obviously unintended uses, which we've seen on Borderlands when it was playable and on Rival Wings with the train, too.

My real opinion however is to remove DRK from PvP, obnoxious job with nothing fun about it to play with or play against.

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Ah yes, gatekeeping people's job regardless of intention of the player, love the idea. /s

If we are going to be smart and say "get rid of the pull" then pray tell what other playmaking ability should DRK get? Take Salted Earth out and its basically now just a Plunge bot for heal reduction. DRK is a problem in FL purely because there is no limit to how many targets Salted Earth can pull simultanously. I really want to hear a suggestion rather than another "uuuuugh DRK broken, ban it or delet Salted" what DRK should have in place of Salted Earth.

DRG is a problem on both FL and CC, it has an unforgiving damage output both with their Limit Break as well as their general burst (which is about half the power of the limit break, on a 20-25s cooldown) with minimal risk tied to it thanks to Horrid Roar, Elusive Jump and their own LB giving them iframes + a 24k shield after. And even if we ignore the dmg of DRG, apparently AST squads with Macrocosmos is a new favourite to do a ton of AOE damage against deathballing alliances.

You wanna know how to fix Frontlines? Here, let me tell you:

1.) Change how Limit breaks charge, don't let them charge for free just because you exist while scratching your head.
2.) Take every single action with AOE damage in this game, reduce the damage past the 5th target by -80%/-90% (including the power of DRK's pull-in) and keep actions otherwise the same, because frankly Salted Earth is only as OP as the amount of players it is allowed to suck in.
3.) Change Macrocosmos' damage to 8000, make Gravity II (non-doublecast) 12000 to keep their burst potential roughly the same, slightly increase their 5y AOE damage output over time and nerf their 15y pseudo nuke.


Anyhow I'll happily hear suggestions about Salted Earth.

Mark DRKs for your team. Silence them when they plunge, watch everything fall apart.

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Originally Posted by Mekhana

Mark DRKs for your team. Silence them when they plunge, watch everything fall apart.

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Solid A+. Can confirm this is the bane of my existence, FL and CC alike.

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Originally Posted by Mekhana

Mark DRKs for your team. Silence them when they plunge, watch everything fall apart.

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This might work for solo DRKs but not premades. Theres 3 players in top 10 Frontline standings i recognize that i have to deal with regularly. Theyve been there for months.

In fact, here are all the times i care to find their DRK in at least top 15.
Tallying Period: 13/11/2023 to 19/11/2023
Tallying Period: 06/11/2023 to 12/11/2023
Tallying Period: 30/10/2023 to 05/11/2023
Tallying Period: 23/10/2023 to 29/10/2023
Tallying Period: 16/10/2023 to 22/10/2023
Tallying Period: 09/10/2023 to 15/10/2023
Tallying Period: 25/09/2023 to 01/10/2023
Tallying Period: 18/09/2023 to 24/09/2023
Tallying Period: 14/08/2023 to 20/08/2023
Tallying Period: 07/08/2023 to 13/08/2023
Tallying Period: 31/07/2023 to 06/08/2023

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Originally Posted by Mekhana

Mark DRKs for your team. Silence them when they plunge, watch everything fall apart.

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Sadly you don't deal with one DRK.

I know you can only CC one person at a time in most cases but you only need the same numbers of team mates as there are DRKs on the enemy team to share the same braincell.

So just mark all the enemy DRKs on the game or at least the trouble ones like a premade doomstacker, communicate with your team and hope for the best.