Rebalance for MCH, please...

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Originally Posted by RajNish

Oh my dude, it's not about the number of kills, it's about the player complaining that MNK kills him because he can't escape like a BRD. If he can't escape and can't resist melee, then he doesn't know what he's doing, that's all. I wish you good luck in standing on the crystal when your team does not eliminate tactically significant targets. XD

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The max range damage only MCH. Best MCH btw. It's not about any one thing it's about balance which is what the OP is lacking, and your SS does not represent that at all. Take your own advice and touch some grass.

You're contradicting yourself again. First you tell me that I worked at a distance, and did not stand in a crystal. Then you say that the MCH is working at a distance. Oh what news! You really don't know what you want to say. However, I'm already tired of it. The next time you want to assert yourself at someone else's expense, find someone else.

I should have figured sarcasm was beyond you grasp, my apologies.

Well, if you came to practice sarcasm on the game forum, where it was supposed to discuss the balance, then it’s not for me to touch the grass. :P

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Who fucking cares? It's not a game designed for 1v1. If you're approaching it from a 1v1 standpoint, no fucking wonder you suck at it.

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I think you wanted to respond to someone else. I never implied that you should 1v1 as a ranged... Re-read my message.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

What exactly is good about this? 9 kills? You're at the bottom of the assist pool and second lowest on healing. You avoided the crystal like the plague and have the lowest damage taken. You barely took highest damage despite having the top kills by a wide margin. This is not really a good example for skilled play even at just a glance. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Kills do not skill make. You're not a sniper and the sooner you figure that out the better.

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Sounds like something somebody that has never played a ranged in CC would say.

( there is definitely a middle ground for sure, but sitting on your ass on the crystal while you're getting pummeled by AoEs and melees specifically only waiting for your squishy self to get in range sounds really like something somebody that has no real clue what they're talking about would say... so please tell me that's not what you meant with that post. As one of the squishiest classes in pvp, you're not supposed to eat as much damage as melees or healers, plain and simple, else you're just griefing. If you have to get on point to contest the crystal, it's for specific cases, like you team losing, overtime, or trying to offset the amount of enemies over it because they're mega committing )

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Originally Posted by Valence

I think you wanted to respond to someone else. I never implied that you should 1v1 as a ranged... Re-read my message.

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I think he meant my message. But I also never said anywhere that MCH should fight 1v1 or that I consider team combat as a one-on-one fight. This is nonsense. All I said was that this class is capable of knocking out a melee when dangerously close, or at least forcing them to flee. My message was mainly that the MCH has decent damage, ability to kite and even at close range this class is able to successfully fend off a melee, unless you are focused by a whole group or a couple of melee.

As for ranked games, everything happens faster, more technically, and in many ways it is a tactical and positional game. One single mistake in focus is worth losing, that's all. On the other hand, it is clear to me why my words were deliberately twisted. This conversation was not about discussing balance at all.

The log I showed is far from the best, but it was taken as an example of the melee just not reaching me, besides that it was Cloud Nine, where the MCH can work very efficiently.

It's very strange for me to see people prejudice a screenshot without knowing the situation and not being there, using it to moking. Because I never said anywhere that I was the best MCH in Eorzea. I just wanted to say "use your arsenal properly, all your arsenal".

Also, what the OP probably doesn't know is that the MCH has Overheat stacks that at max allow them to move very fast. Many players usually ignore this point and complain about the lack of speed. And for me personally, this is a more interesting mechanic than the BRD jumping back.

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Originally Posted by Valence

If you have to get on point to contest the crystal, it's for specific cases, like you team losing, overtime, or trying to offset the amount of enemies over it because they're mega committing

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In fact, sometimes I have to hold the crystal at the cost of my knockout, and this is a situation that should not be. If MCH holds the crystal, and I had this quite often with the whole dead team, it means that everything went wrong.

Ok Jesus this is a lot to sort out...

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Originally Posted by RajNish

Please re-read what I wrote before. I said that the MCH can not only quickly escape but also kill one on one in some cases. To be honest, I don’t care what Gserpent player is, good or bad, or his point of view, because he definitely needs to improve his attentive reading skill. And by the way, you too. Because the main idea was not about one on one, but about the use of the entire set of skills. Will you argue with this? Good luck!

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For starters - my main message to you was about the screenshot you posted when you felt the need to react to Gserpent talking to Valence, this is the conversation history:

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

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Originally Posted by RajNish

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

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Originally Posted by Valence

Good luck killing a melee one on one as a MCH... Unless they're out of resources and you're not I guess. Or if they don't know what they're doing.

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Who fucking cares? It's not a game designed for 1v1. If you're approaching it from a 1v1 standpoint, no fucking wonder you suck at it.

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Yeah, when I'm "suck at it". <scoreboard screenshot>

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Your ability to perform well and showcasing it with a single screenshot of you doing well does not indicate you being a good player, only that you did well in that one match. It has minimal bearing what actually happened in the match. The most I can tell from it is that you either have rarely been focused or played at extremely long ranges and disengaged / LOSed frequently while popping out of cover a lot for damage. However the general skill level of the match is weird if you take a look at your monk for example who only got about 300,000 dmg in the match and had to sit on the Crystal for extended periods of time.

<bottom message not intended for you>

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You are 100% correct - nobody assumed that it was you who primarily spoke of 1v1 scenarios, you only mentioned that it can hold its' own for a while in some cases.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

While the choice of words from Gserpent isn't quite noble, he has a point - Machinist isn't great at 1v1s VS jobs actually capable of picking 1v1 fights efficiently, so it isn't surprising when a Machinist will suffer against reasonably skilled players in a 1v1. This is why looking at Machinist balance in the context of 1v1 is somewhat futile.

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This part of my message was not directed at you - it was a general statement for anyone arguing in favour of or against 1v1ing as a Machinist. I only meant to flesh out the meaning that bothering about 1v1 talks for Machinist balance is a futile endeavour.

However, as the conversation goes and Valence approaches Gserpent that there may have been a misunderstanding (albeit a heated one with Gserpent's usual temper) and that Valence didn't intend his message to be viewed this way, you step forward and are like:

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Originally Posted by RajNish

[1] I think he meant my message. But I also never said anywhere that MCH should fight 1v1 or that I consider team combat as a one-on-one fight. This is nonsense. All I said was that this class is capable of knocking out a melee when dangerously close, or at least forcing them to flee. My message was mainly that the MCH has decent damage, ability to kite and even at close range this class is able to successfully fend off a melee, unless you are focused by a whole group or a couple of melee.

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You once again are somehow under the impression that Gserpent's and mine responses about MCH 1v1ing were meant for you when it was absolutely not. You never once talked about it in the thread, yet you continue to think we meant you somehow.

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Originally Posted by RajNish

[2] The log I showed is far from the best, but it was taken as an example of the melee just not reaching me, besides that it was Cloud Nine, where the MCH can work very efficiently.

It's very strange for me to see people prejudice a screenshot without knowing the situation and not being there, using it to moking. Because I never said anywhere that I was the best MCH in Eorzea. I just wanted to say "use your arsenal properly, all your arsenal".

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I feel sorry for you if you felt prejudiced on by some of us here, however I hope it didn't go the wrong way when I said that it is difficult to judge what your screenshot is trying to show. What some of the others posted was definitely out of line, no doubt.

But I don't think your message came across the way you intended when you posted the screenshot, given the aforementioned conversation history between the four of us. Had you posted a few things extra, things may have looked different.

Anyhow, one last thing:

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Originally Posted by RajNish

[...]because he definitely needs to improve his attentive reading skill. And by the way, you too. Because the main idea was not about one on one, but about the use of the entire set of skills. Will you argue with this? Good luck!

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While I will make no efforts about Gserpent here, I believe you owe me a small apology at least.

You jam yourself into an argument you weren't part of, somehow start believing not one but two people said something that you clearly didn't say and neither of us intended for you, yet somehow I am the one who needs to improve his attentive reading skill? Seriously? That Ad Hominem was extremely unwarranted.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

While I will make no efforts about Gserpent here, I believe you owe me a small apology at least.

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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. My sincere apologies. It's just that Gserpent has his temper, and I have mine. And thanks for taking the time. I hope I didn't upset you too much. <3

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Originally Posted by RajNish

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. My sincere apologies. It's just that Gserpent has his temper, and I have mine. And thanks for taking the time. I hope I didn't upset you too much. <3

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All is well, as long as the misunderstandings have been cleared up I won't dwell on it any longer. Also sorry in retrospect if anything in the post sounded a bit harsh.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Sounds like something somebody that has never played a ranged in CC would say.

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Literally S2 crystal BRD and avid MCH Enjoyer.

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Originally Posted by Valence

( there is definitely a middle ground for sure, but sitting on your ass on the crystal while you're getting pummeled by AoEs and melees specifically only waiting for your squishy self to get in range sounds really like something somebody that has no real clue what they're talking about would say... so please tell me that's not what you meant with that post.

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Did you read it? because 12 seconds of crystal for any role is laughable. Also the tone of the post is questioning how the scorecard nods to any meaningful gameplay when the analyzed stats suggest max range play and little support.

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Originally Posted by Valence

As one of the squishiest classes in pvp, you're not supposed to eat as much damage as melees or healers, plain and simple, else you're just griefing.

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Squishiest? Do you not understand how your turret works?

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Originally Posted by Valence

If you have to get on point to contest the crystal, it's for specific cases, like you team losing, overtime, or trying to offset the amount of enemies over it because they're mega committing )

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Nobody is arguing that. The question is in what game do you have 3 melee on your team and 12 seconds on crystal time? Stats point to the whm picking up the slack for a pretend sniper.

TLDR: Just another day of Look at my cherry picked SS followed by devil's advocate 'I bet you don't even play (Role/job/game mode here)!'

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Originally Posted by RajNish

I think he meant my message. But I also never said anywhere that MCH should fight 1v1 or that I consider team combat as a one-on-one fight. This is nonsense. All I said was that this class is capable of knocking out a melee when dangerously close, or at least forcing them to flee. My message was mainly that the MCH has decent damage, ability to kite and even at close range this class is able to successfully fend off a melee, unless you are focused by a whole group or a couple of melee.

As for ranked games, everything happens faster, more technically, and in many ways it is a tactical and positional game. One single mistake in focus is worth losing, that's all. On the other hand, it is clear to me why my words were deliberately twisted. This conversation was not about discussing balance at all.

The log I showed is far from the best, but it was taken as an example of the melee just not reaching me, besides that it was Cloud Nine, where the MCH can work very efficiently.

It's very strange for me to see people prejudice a screenshot without knowing the situation and not being there, using it to moking. Because I never said anywhere that I was the best MCH in Eorzea. I just wanted to say "use your arsenal properly, all your arsenal".

Also, what the OP probably doesn't know is that the MCH has Overheat stacks that at max allow them to move very fast. Many players usually ignore this point and complain about the lack of speed. And for me personally, this is a more interesting mechanic than the BRD jumping back.

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The big thing is that MCH defensiveness is extremely situational. If you have the correct tools to get out of the clutches of a harasser (bioblaster/anchor), then it helps immensely. If you don't and are stuck with drill or chainsaw, you're not gonna hurt them that much and they'll stay on your back while you're waiting for your CC to come up. If Your overheat/WF is up, or even your LB is up, it gives you a one big shot at trying to fend them off or killing them as you say (although you need to be careful with what defensives the melee have up when you use it). If you don't have LB, you're going to act very differently and just try to run and shake them off.

As for overheat mobility, let's be honest, how many times do you use this as a mobility tool? If I have overheat ready I use WF and burst damage out. I'm not gonna say that sometimes stars will align and you'll have built exactly 5 heat stacks when somebody decides to jump you, but considering the pain and time it takes to set up overheat (literally the pvp job mechanic that is the most gruesome to build and maintain of all), it's not realistically gonna be something you're gonna rely on.

So yeah, it can be a big hit and miss, especially when you're out of MP and don't have much time left to live.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Literally S2 crystal BRD and avid MCH Enjoyer.

Did you read it? because 12 seconds of crystal for any role is laughable. Also the tone of the post is questioning how the scorecard nods to any meaningful gameplay when the analyzed stats suggest max range play and little support.

Squishiest? Do you not understand how your turret works?

Nobody is arguing that. The question is in what game do you have 3 melee on your team and 12 seconds on crystal time? Stats point to the whm picking up the slack for a pretend sniper.

TLDR: Just another day of Look at my cherry picked SS followed by devil's advocate 'I bet you don't even play (Role/job/game mode here)!'

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It is possible that some nuances are lost in translation and/or from the written medium. I also apologize for the free ad-personam.

I also do agree that the turret is a good, undervalued tool (by myself included because I tend to use it more for the team than me), but you still qualify as a squishy ranged class (unlike DNC or healers).

Speaking of healers and the 3 melees on the screen you take as an example, I actually do think your logic here is completely wrong. If you have so many damage soakers why in the seven hells would you even go soak that much damage with them when you could just not waste your resources like that? On top of it, yes, except maybe for SGE actually, healers are some of the best sustaining tanks in the game behind some tanks and melees, so yeah, I actually do expect them to "pick up the slack" as you say when it comes to contesting the crystal. As a MCH, I'll be the last to chime in if we lack the numbers to contest, or for overtime, etc, as I already stated.

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Originally Posted by Valence

The big thing is that MCH defensiveness is extremely situational. If you have the correct tools to get out of the clutches of a harasser (bioblaster/anchor), then it helps immensely. If you don't and are stuck with drill or chainsaw, you're not gonna hurt them that much and they'll stay on your back while you're waiting for your CC to come up. If Your overheat/WF is up, or even your LB is up, it gives you a one big shot at trying to fend them off or killing them as you say (although you need to be careful with what defensives the melee have up when you use it). If you don't have LB, you're going to act very differently and just try to run and shake them off.

As for overheat mobility, let's be honest, how many times do you use this as a mobility tool? If I have overheat ready I use WF and burst damage out. I'm not gonna say that sometimes stars will align and you'll have built exactly 5 heat stacks when somebody decides to jump you, but considering the pain and time it takes to set up overheat (literally the pvp job mechanic that is the most gruesome to build and maintain of all), it's not realistically gonna be something you're gonna rely on.

So yeah, it can be a big hit and miss, especially when you're out of MP and don't have much time left to live.

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Yes, I agree with you. It all depends on the resources and skill of the player. And the MCH is not a tank or a melee to fight at close range. But when that happens (if you're being hunted and cornered for some reason), there's a decent enough chance that you'll knock your opponent out.

I just put the turret under me and use wildfire + bioblaster and my whole set of skills, and although this combo is more usable for AOE, it does not allow them to quickly escape or heal and does significant damage with other skills. The main thing is that they stay in the turret field as long as possible and I managed to deal good damage during this time.

I noticed that many machinists thoughtlessly throw the turret at the beginning of the battle somewhere around the corner where the enemy is standing, and when they are approached from the back (some people like to hit that way), they are forced to somehow survive without protection and additional damage.

As for overheating stacks, yes, they are also situational, but they still exist. And it works too. To be honest, it's all about situationality, you have to time your fight, and I really like that.

As for my post where I say that the machinist is a pretty decent class that can handle it, I'm really sure that it is. Just within the bounds of common sense, the player must understand when it is better to run and how to effectively run and what to do when there is nowhere to run.

One of the main thing I'd like to see changed is turning the timer during Overheated into stacks like how they did with PvE while making a separate buff for the sprint (retaining the same amount of seconds and giving a little more leeway for Heat Blast since you can do max 3 of them and the 3rd can sometimes be hard if you get clipped by server or some delay).

Overall... it is not bad to play, ended up learning to live with Bioblaster despite my grievances with it, picking right situations along with the turret both offensively and defensively.