Time to address the real problem - RMT buyers

I think going after RMT buyers is legit and fair. I also think the players that do not participate in RMT would be shocked if suddenly everyone who ever bought gil suddenly vanished from the game.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

I'm curious why people even buy gil. I gave away 16 million about...2 months ago and it was a chore to even get rid of that.

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They have cash to burn, too lazy to earn gil the normal way but what's funny is those same gil buyers are sometimes usually going to other forums and cry about how their account got hacked because they trusted someone with their info and now that said account is running the bot treadmill now for some over seas seller or some random seller who got caught selling and advertising in chat and was punished and expecting sympathy from the community.

Yeah, war on drugs taught us to go after the buyers too, am I right?

I do agree with you. People who buy from RMT dealers should face the consequences. They are in fact the reason why Square Enix had to take away the ability to gift mogstation items. The RMT dealers will steal from other players just so they can get a quick buck to serve another.. and its wrong.

Is buying from RMT dealers an addictive habit like drugs? I don't think you can put that example towards this, and make a fair statement.

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Originally Posted by Gember

Is buying from RMT dealers an addictive habit like drugs? I don't think you can put that example towards this, and make a fair statement.

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A good question but you gotta think how often would someone want to grind gil selling through the market or running duties? If some folks have an easier option they will take it and those who can offer the cash to do so won't hesitate for some that's like a drop in the ocean to pay look how much other games making selling in game currency cards or from their shop compared to someone who'd earn it by just playing the game.

Let's just say that going after buyers is both:
1.) harder to do because there is lot more "guilt by association" kind of scenarios
2.) less effective because buyers are dime a dozen and will get replaced as long as the desire exists
If you cannot kill the supply and must go after the buyer, you have already lost.

Totally agree, in my experience only ONE MMO publisher has ever banned buyers, LOTRO way back, others like SE, Blizzard, etc. are simply too timid to make examples and lose the revenue of the low-lifes (buyers) who keep RMT in business.

Of course, it's also a result of SE's endless desire to milk players for all they're worth and creating a 'store' in a SUBSCRIPTION game, ALL ITEMS should be available by playing the game you PAY TO PLAY each month .. without the 'store' RMT would have no items to sell and would only be left with their stolen accounts to sell .. and of course 'boosting' services SE seems not to bother trying to deal with.

Again, BAN THE BUYERS and the problem diminishes.

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Originally Posted by Gember

Is buying from RMT dealers an addictive habit like drugs? I don't think you can put that example towards this, and make a fair statement.

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Probably for some, yes, but it's also driven by SE's enforcement of MSQ gating .. I wonder how much they make a month from story skips .. and making most desirable mounts, pets, etc. only available to the 1% tryhards by only making them drop in Savage, Extreme and higher content which we know from SE itself are only playhed by a small minority, leaving the vast majority's only source of most of the best desgined mounts the store, as well as pest, outfits, etc.

the solution doesnt require bans or jumping through hoops
1. add glowing weapons to the mogstation people can buy
2. add easier ways to get gil, not time gating, not babysitting the market board. being able to buy gil on the mog station would kill them easiest way.
3. add hefty rewards to get people through that content could be glowing weapons too.
square can kill them by adding that service themselves, its 100 percent an accessibility issue, and super easy to solve.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I bet you my entire life savings what you just suggested was probably one of the first thoughts they had when they ran into this problem. Easier said than done.

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Considering the Report RMT Activity feature was only implemented after Yoshida himself got tell spammed when he visited NA datacenters. I wouldn't make that bet if I were you.

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Originally Posted by Sigma5

the solution doesnt require bans or jumping through hoops
1. add glowing weapons to the mogstation people can buy
2. add easier ways to get gil, not time gating, not babysitting the market board. being able to buy gil on the mog station would kill them easiest way.
3. add hefty rewards to get people through that content could be glowing weapons too.
square can kill them by adding that service themselves, its 100 percent an accessibility issue, and super easy to solve.

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Being able to buy gold via the WoW token is what ended up killing WoW for many of its players. Paid boosting got out of control. And RMT still exists in WOW. The vendors just had to adjust their prices to stay competitive with the token.

Gill is easy to get. It's not an effort free process but it's also not a strenuous one.

We've got lots of glowy weapons in the game that are easy to get - the crafted Primal weapons. Decide what you want, buy the mats needed, take them to a friend who's a crafter or even just ask in shout chat if you don't have friends. There's usually someone happy to do it if you already have the mats.

What is really needed? Patience. You don't need that latest and greatest item the first week of release. Wait for it to come down in price if you don't want to farm it yourself.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

It's really not that simple and beyond their scope.

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Never said it was simple. By pure definition of the TOS, it is within their scope. That's like saying players that brazenly use third party tools are outside of their scope.

However, I do agree it isn't simple. Ultimately, the judgment calls would probably need a human a look at it, but a script could flag accounts based on various factors. For example, let's say they track the number of times a gatherer hits a node. Let's say a gatherer can commonly hit 3 nodes per minute. Put up a flag on an account where a gatherer hits up 1000 nodes in any 6 hour period. That isn't an outright ban of course. But, let's say that gatherer happens to trade list those 3000 ore on the MB (or trade them to some other mule). And then it shows that the player transferred millions of gil to another player or purchased some high-priced item that is well outside the standard deviation of MB sales (30M gil for a potion).

I'm overly simplifying it, but there are telltale signs. But it requires someone to look into it. Someone that needs to be a paid a salary. Just like everything else in life, it boils down to money. Let's say the RMT Strike Force needs 300K/year in salary. That's about 1,600 subs just going to pay their salary, before we even talk about other expenses. However, 3 people doing this job might be enough to make a dent if it was their only job. And over time they'd probably come up with better strategies than some guy making a forum post. At least, I'd certainly hope so.

So...any real solutions yet?

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Originally Posted by Pintsized

Totally agree, in my experience only ONE MMO publisher has ever banned buyers, LOTRO way back, others like SE, Blizzard, etc. are simply too timid to make examples and lose the revenue of the low-lifes (buyers) who keep RMT in business.

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there was a game I played years ago, Vanguard, and I bought currency, my partner wanted some extra cash and convinced me to do it. I mean why not right? no one ever gets caught.

After my week vacation, I never bought anything like that again. it works. only the most die hard of people with no regard for their account or the work they have put into it, would do it again. this is how I know it will work if SE started doing that. first offense, a week vacation from the game, people notice that... a lot. Second violation NEEDS to be a permanent ban. no vacation just gone. no one wants to lose everything for a convenience. if they do this in conjunction with their low hanging fruit bans, it will take time, but it will resolve the issue.

the amount of players they lose to this will be insignificant compared to the positive press they would gain.

hit the buyers, the overall issue lessens. attack the problem, not the symptoms.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

there was a game I played years ago, Vanguard, and I bought currency, my partner wanted some extra cash and convinced me to do it. I mean why not right? no one ever gets caught.

After my week vacation, I never bought anything like that again. it works. only the most die hard of people with no regard for their account or the work they have put into it, would do it again. this is how I know it will work if SE started doing that. first offense, a week vacation from the game, people notice that... a lot. Second violation NEEDS to be a permanent ban. no vacation just gone. no one wants to lose everything for a convenience. if they do this in conjunction with their low hanging fruit bans, it will take time, but it will resolve the issue.

the amount of players they lose to this will be insignificant compared to the positive press they would gain.

hit the buyers, the overall issue lessens. attack the problem, not the symptoms.

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Issue comes with how do you detect what is RMT gil and what is not? For example, say I go deathroll at a casino and win 100m gil and get my winnings either through direct trade (rip fingers in that case) or by having the person buy something off a mannequin or the marketboard (I personally haven't won this way but a friend of mine has several times when we've gone out). Is that going to be considered RMT because the amount of money won was large or will there be a way to differentiate so people who do enjoy casino based games can still continue?

Follow up question: If casinos are going to be considered RMT, what is keeping other gil based venues from not being also considered RMT? Would the entire nightlife scene need to be taken down?

It might be easier. I have a friend in FC and I gave him four million gil for a house. Just because I could afford it. Moreover, I took this gil from Alt on another server. And the gil was transferred through another player. Is this a violation of the RMT?

Sorry for my English.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Strengthening Enforcement Against Real Money Trading (RMT) Activity



Players use their services because there is no penalty for doing so.

Because there are players willing to use their services, banning accounts related to RMT sales has little effect. They simply make a new account with part of the profits from their previous transaction, knowing that the profits made with the new account can be used to start yet another account when it gets banned in turn.

If you want to shut down RMT, you need to shut down those who are funding their industry - the buyers. That's only going to happen if you start aggressively pursuing them, penalize them in a meaningful fashion then publicize that pursuit and the resulting penalty. Make it clear to other players who are considering RMT that it is not worth it.

That doesn't have to mean permanently banning an account for a first offense. Some players (especially younger ones) may not really understand the serious problems caused by RMT. But a 30 day ban with an accompanying explanation of how RMT impacts the game for everyone should send the message loud and clear to those willing to listen.

Those not willing to listen that are caught a second time? Permanently ban the account. Take away everything that player has worked to get for the past several months.

Those found to be engaging in RMT would of course have the chance to appeal their bans. False positives can happen.

It's also a good way to collect some very funny stories from the cheaters that can be used to help publicize the actions that are being taken against RMT buyers and the futile excuses some use trying to escape punishment. Player names would not be used since that would be a privacy violation. The player names could be replaced with the names of FF franchise villains for additional entertainment, and potentially attract even more attention in the player community to the problems caused by RMT.

But honestly, SE. If you truly want to do something about RMT activity, you need to go after those who create the need for the RMT services in the first place and you need to make it very clear that you are doing so. Any business will end up going out of business if they can't get enough customers.

That's how you need to fight RMT - drive away their customers.

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I agree with this. I don't understand why more companies don't go strongly after the buyers. OSRS does (Jagex). C'mon SE, do the right thing.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

So...any real solutions yet?

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You forgot to use "/s"? Look at where you're asking. :D

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Originally Posted by Dubolomus

It might be easier. I have a friend in FC and I gave him four million gil for a house. Just because I could afford it. Is this a violation of the RMT?

Sorry for my English.

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Did you get "real money" in that "trade?" If no, then you're fine. If yes, don't say so here. :p

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Strengthening Enforcement Against Real Money Trading (RMT) Activity



Players use their services because there is no penalty for doing so.

Because there are players willing to use their services, banning accounts related to RMT sales has little effect. They simply make a new account with part of the profits from their previous transaction, knowing that the profits made with the new account can be used to start yet another account when it gets banned in turn.

If you want to shut down RMT, you need to shut down those who are funding their industry - the buyers. That's only going to happen if you start aggressively pursuing them, penalize them in a meaningful fashion then publicize that pursuit and the resulting penalty. Make it clear to other players who are considering RMT that it is not worth it.

That doesn't have to mean permanently banning an account for a first offense. Some players (especially younger ones) may not really understand the serious problems caused by RMT. But a 30 day ban with an accompanying explanation of how RMT impacts the game for everyone should send the message loud and clear to those willing to listen.

Those not willing to listen that are caught a second time? Permanently ban the account. Take away everything that player has worked to get for the past several months.

Those found to be engaging in RMT would of course have the chance to appeal their bans. False positives can happen.

It's also a good way to collect some very funny stories from the cheaters that can be used to help publicize the actions that are being taken against RMT buyers and the futile excuses some use trying to escape punishment. Player names would not be used since that would be a privacy violation. The player names could be replaced with the names of FF franchise villains for additional entertainment, and potentially attract even more attention in the player community to the problems caused by RMT.

But honestly, SE. If you truly want to do something about RMT activity, you need to go after those who create the need for the RMT services in the first place and you need to make it very clear that you are doing so. Any business will end up going out of business if they can't get enough customers.

That's how you need to fight RMT - drive away their customers.

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You need to address the players who uses them, if no one used these services they would be none existing.

1 month ban if taken, taking part in a RMT thing for first time time offense, second time, account termination, problem solved, if had a house would even lose that or those.

Of course I didn't take real money. But how to prove it?

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Originally Posted by Dubolomus

Of course I didn't take real money. But how to prove it?

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There's nothing to prove. You're fine. No se preocupe.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Then I trust you relayed that information to the GMs with proof of their ne'er do welling to you and the community properly.

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Hi I've seen and reported them too way back in the day and nothing has happened, so what am I supposed to do? Just keep reporting them every single time I see them just so SE can ignore yet another report? Seems like a waste of my time really!

Nothing will ever stop nor will it ever go away there is the answer

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Issue comes with how do you detect what is RMT gil and what is not? For example, say I go deathroll at a casino and win 100m gil and get my winnings either through direct trade (rip fingers in that case) or by having the person buy something off a mannequin or the marketboard (I personally haven't won this way but a friend of mine has several times when we've gone out). Is that going to be considered RMT because the amount of money won was large or will there be a way to differentiate so people who do enjoy casino based games can still continue?

Follow up question: If casinos are going to be considered RMT, what is keeping other gil based venues from not being also considered RMT? Would the entire nightlife scene need to be taken down?

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since the money is traceable back to its origin, and all points along the way, unless a known RMT source is funding the lottery, then everything is able to be justified when it is flagged. thats why people need to be involved for final judgement calls.

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Originally Posted by Dubolomus

It might be easier. I have a friend in FC and I gave him four million gil for a house. Just because I could afford it. Moreover, I took this gil from Alt on another server. And the gil was transferred through another player. Is this a violation of the RMT?

Sorry for my English.

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4 million isnt much in the greater scheme of things, and there are FAR easier ways to transfer gil without involving a third player. if you received any REAL MONEY.. then yes, its RMT.

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Originally Posted by Dubolomus

Of course I didn't take real money. But how to prove it?

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You have nothing to prove. Your account is going to show that you're a normal player with normal activity helping out someone who's been on your friends list for a long time.

SE knows the accounts engaging in organized RMT since they ban thousands each week. It's the activity initiating from those accounts that must be tracked. Eventually gil is going to pass from one of those accounts to the account of someone who shows otherwise normal game play activity through a suspicious transaction. That is someone who is buying from RMT.

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Originally Posted by Velvet_Lunarfang

Nothing will ever stop nor will it ever go away there is the answer

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If that's the sort of attitude everyone has, of course nothing will ever change.

Considering the measures that SE is taking, including the loss of considerable income from the usual holiday purchases, they've been pushed to the point that they must do something about it.

Players need to do their part by not buying from RMT, securing their account information and avoiding the way too obvious phishing scams.

The best defense is a strong offense. Aggressively pursue those engaging in RMT on both sides instead of only focusing on the sales side where banned accounts are all too quickly replaced.

Posting this in all threads pertaining to the RMT bandaid:

Originally, I didn't give the RMT announcement a second glance until multiple YouTube vids popped up regarding what the changes meant for us. I had skimmed it thinking all items were now available to send directly to friends, which was great, but didn't see that all items were no longer available until these vids brought it to my attention.

Everyone has multiple reasons for hating this. Mine specifically is that online store prizes, given away during FC events, are so limited now. In running my FC for over 6 years, not once has anyone requested an item from this list of things that are still available to gift:
-Costume sets/Weapon/Armor Cosmetics
-Furnishing/Housing Items
-Fantasia
-Story skips/boosts
-Dyes

Mounts & emotes, both and more of which can no longer be gifted, were always what my FC was interested in receiving for their prizes. This is so limiting to my members, and I really hope this bandaid solution is changed. No need to punish the players for a lack of proper RMT control.

I also wonder. How were so many accounts compromised?

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Originally Posted by Pintsized

Totally agree, in my experience only ONE MMO publisher has ever banned buyers, LOTRO way back, others like SE, Blizzard, etc. are simply too timid to make examples and lose the revenue of the low-lifes (buyers) who keep RMT in business.

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Actually I remember ban waves in late Vanilla and early Burning Crusade (WoW) where buyers did get long suspensions or banned for buying gold. I had a couple acquaintances that got nailed.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I also wonder. How were so many accounts compromised?

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The usual way - people use the same password and same email address for multiple online accounts. They don't add security through two factor authentication when available. They don't change their passwords.

The original data breach in question didn't happen at SE. It was some other online provider. There have been a lot of breaches publicized in the last year. It could even be from an older breach.

The hackers then start using the email address and passwords from the compromised database to try to get access to other online accounts. Most attempts fail but sometimes they get lucky.

Several weeks ago, I started having one of my email accounts I use for specific types of online transaction (but not my gaming email) locked due to multiple failed password attempts. I had changed the password on that account earlier in the year and both the old and new passwords were unique to that account. The account lock for the failed attempts finally stopped happening about 2 weeks ago but it was a pain in the neck to have to keep resetting the password on that account twice a week while it was happening. It makes me wonder if my email was part of whatever data breach has been causing the problems for SE.

But imagine the trouble I might have had if I used that email address for my Square Enix account along with sharing the same password between the accounts without ever changing it. Easily my account could have been one of the compromised ones.

Don't be complacent, folks. Your personal information is only as secure as the databases of those you do business with. Use multiple email addresses to keep more sensitive accounts separated from more casual accounts and those separated from personal correspondence. Use different passwords for everything. Change your passwords regularly (at least once a year if not twice). If you're going to have a hard time remember all those different passwords, there are password managers to help you (frequently included in internet security software).

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

since the money is traceable back to its origin, and all points along the way, unless a known RMT source is funding the lottery, then everything is able to be justified when it is flagged. thats why people need to be involved for final judgement calls.

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General question to anyone:

RMT is handled by the task force in JP right? Or is it someone else? If it is then I think we'd need way more than a handful of people to actually get personal involvement in cases (and to actually be able to defend ourselves which we aren't really able to do atm in general since being thrown in gaol and trying to talk about your case gets you nowhere with GMs.)

The real problem is streamers actively promoting rp / erp, Nightclubs and normalizing selling items in savage tier, making special videos / jokes about it while just slowly trying to ease it in / normalize it as if it was "normal" to do it, sorry, it is not, and it's not because you try very hard to normalize it incrementally by further and further degen jokes and slapping your knee as if it was nothing about it, that we don't see exactly what you are doing, in little bites months after months, easy example of this "temptation" by jokes and incremental admissions :

https://youtu.be/uhoppBlncdw

And "funnily"enough it's allways discord friends and players in the group of these streamers that are the first to make these types of statement and pollute other pf on other DC's to make it extra difficult for others to clear. Gatekeeping and trying to make customers in 2 target to hit with 1 stone.

"OH no we would never ask for money, but gil, gil is okay.. but not money !"

Also, since when it's even normal to go clear a raid and pay for the loot in gils, to begin with, just play ? and get a chance to roll ? What's up with that ? this mentality and way of doing things drips directly from "influencers" and they don't bear this name just for lulz.

When it's absolutely, extremely easy to resell your gil to third party websites if you wanted to, too.

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Originally Posted by Katt_Felista

The real problem is streamers actively promoting rp / erp, Nightclubs and normalizing selling items in savage tier, making special videos / jokes about it while just slowly trying to ease it in / normalize it as if it was "normal" to do it, sorry, it is not, and it's not because you try very hard to normalize it incrementally by further and further degen jokes and slapping your knee as if it was nothing about it, that we don't see exactly what you are doing, in little bites months after months, easy example of this "temptation" by jokes and incremental admissions :

https://youtu.be/uhoppBlncdw

And "funnily"enough it's allways discord friends and players in the group of these streamers that are the first to make these types of statement and pollute other pf on other DC's to make it extra difficult for others to clear. Gatekeeping and trying to make customers in 2 target to hit with 1 stone.

"OH no we would never ask for money, but gil, gil is okay.. but not money !"

Also, since when it's even normal to go clear a raid and pay for the loot in gils, to begin with, just play ? and get a chance to roll ? What's up with that ? this mentality and way of doing things drips directly from "influencers" and they don't bear this name just for lulz.

When it's absolutely, extremely easy to resell your gil to third party websites if you wanted to, too.

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I promise you, it will be good for you if you stop hate watching streamers.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I promise you, it will be good for you if you stop hate watching streamers.

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"I'll never address the reality of it and the issue, but i'll just make npc comments because i'm default programmed into rmt apologist mode, the only mode i know, and also, 1 person bad, person bad, person bad, can't think, person bad."

I think your disc has a scratch in it.

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Originally Posted by Katt_Felista

"I'll never address the reality of it and the issue, but i'll just make npc comments because i'm default programmed into rmt apologist mode, the only mode i know, and also, 1 person bad, person bad, person bad, can't think, person bad."

I think your disc has a scratch in it.

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Accusing me of being a broken record when you are spouting the same unfounded conspiracy theories from last tier. I am not surprised, sadly.

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were always what my FC was interested in receiving for their prizes.

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..and this is why those items were limited in this fashion. They were sought after , high volume items.

THAT is why this has to be done as it has been...in much the same way as items that have a high theft rate are secured.

This is temporary, so for now, we wait.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Accusing me of being a broken record when you are spouting the same unfounded conspiracy theories from last tier. I am not surprised, sadly.

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Not my fault if you have a pea brain and can't correlate names of players in theses streams an attitudes + EPIC np(C) + many more other very similar run and gil selling websites, with repeated offerings of same discord names and discord servers* themselves where they all hang around, used by theses same "good friends" of streamers and other third selling websites claims of first to 10th world first raiders selling these and able to provide streams on twitch as a proof of "real man mode made" clears, as stated on these websites. I think the language is clear enough. You are just too lazy to even start looking to get it. Unfortunately, the phenomenon has grown to unhealthy proportions by help of making it "normalized" or cleverly adding here and there a mention of it in said streamer's streams, as "jokes", but at the same time, showing it not for innocent reasons, because it helps friends of friends make extra pocket money.

in be4 saying "but they use these type of language to incriminate streamers on purpose !!!" kind of stuff, of course.

Pro-tip : When your announcements are so repetitive, with use of the same langage / pictures / try to call your group a little different but not different enough over 5 / 6 different platforms, and you use about 3 different discord usernames to try to be anonymous and grammatically do the same recognizable errors, and in the end hang in the same places/servers all the time, after enough repeats, it's not very difficult / doesn't take a rocket scientist to get who you truely are.

I don't think anyone's angry about the fact that something's being done. They're just angry because what's being done won't be effective and people suffer for it.

Then when the RMT issue gets bad enough that banks refuse to allow any transactions they'll just dig themselves a deeper hole by blocking out any possibility of RMT at all. And the players will suffer, again.

But what they're likely hoping for is to stop any RMT activities that rely on stolen cards.

By limiting gifting they ARE spending money. Just money they don’t have yet. It’s a bad solution that won’t work but don’t be disengenous.

As much as I agree with this - they don't seem to be listening to us.

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Then when the RMT issue gets bad enough that banks refuse to allow any transactions they'll just dig themselves a deeper hole by blocking out any possibility of RMT at all. And the players will suffer, again.

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Do you think this is likely to happen? I wonder sometimes. Seems to me that the banks would be more inclined to try to resolve the matter considering the live services video game industry is a multi-billion-dollar industry.