Getting your health chunked / killed while Guard is up is the worst feeling.

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Originally Posted by Karasio

I'm a melee player lmao, in case you haven't noticed from my copious posts about dragoon being kinda shit in comparison to other melee. And like I literally stated above, I don't look at my character most of the time. Camera zoomed out.

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Top player on Light only plays DRG and has almost 1k point lead to next player. DRG is definately not weak.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

lol ok. Keep wasting your drg LB to "escape" because you were too busy tunneling and not paying attention to the zerg dog piling you. Then again, you're the same person that thinks everyone who makes it to crystal is cheating/win trading, so we all know what kind of bad pvper you are.

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Nobody cares.

https://i.redd.it/7fcu41hi2re41.png

Like we keep saying, look at entire kit of a job already.

You keep ignoring monk and saying it doesn't matter, it DOES matter when a job has a 2s stun on a 15s cd alongside an LB that destroys any ranged character that gets caught by it completely, that's how their kit works, and it's a far more deadly a combo then bards silence + bind.

Hell, machinist even without their stun has a way deadlier burst then bard ever has that can instakill any one player without even needing their team to help them out, they can just remove one enemy from the field like that, which again, is way scarier then a bard silence.

Bard's silence does not guarantee kills, you can still LoS when silenced, you can move out of range when silenced, the reason it stays 3s is because it does not prevent 100% of your actions, and it should stay that way because of that.
It's a supportive class with the lowest damage of all dps jobs, it's 100% reliant on their team to capitalize on their plays, and to keep them alive, almost all other caster or ranged don't need to do this, so no, silence is fine as it is, because you're sacrificing a spot on your team that could be occupied by a job that can destroy an enemy by themselves for a job that boosts everyone else's capability to do so, how hard is it to get that?

Asking for bard pvp nerfs is like asking for machinist pve nerfs, it literally makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

Top player on Light only plays DRG and has almost 1k point lead to next player. DRG is definately not weak.

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How do you check which jobs people use in pvp?

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

Like we keep saying, look at entire kit of a job already.

You keep ignoring monk and saying it doesn't matter, it DOES matter when a job has a 2s stun on a 15s cd alongside an LB that destroys any ranged character that gets caught by it completely, that's how their kit works, and it's a far more deadly a combo then bards silence + bind.

Hell, machinist even without their stun has a way deadlier burst then bard ever has that can instakill any one player without even needing their team to help them out, they can just remove one enemy from the field like that, which again, is way scarier then a bard silence.

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For one, I am well aware of how BRD's kit works and I am making my suggestion with BRD's entire kit in mind. The suggestion contains not a nerf, but a shift in the power budget to make it equally powerful if not more powerful. Feel free to prefer the 3s Silence, but I am not here to suggest making BRD net-worse.

Also, since you seemingly can't shut up about Monk, I will give you my input about Monk.

Yes, Monk is a problem - one that I would have preferred to dedicate a different thread to, but since you are insisting, yes Meteo Drive despite the risks it has for using it in the current state is problematic. Breaking Guard and doing 24000 dmg regardless along with 3s of unguardable and unpurifyable stun is broken. So is being unable to mitigate Pressure Point after it had already applied.

That is why they attempted to make the LB generation a fair bit longer for this LB. Is it enough given MNK's kit? I don't know. Is MNK ridiculously powerful in the right hands? Absolutely. Would I want to see a change? Yes, but I'm not gonna discuss it here because it takes way more time for me to do so.

MCH has a bigger burst no doubt. Their Drill-WF-Snipe / Anchor-WF-Snipe combo are definitely in the ballpark of absurd almost. Arguably, they are very similar to MNK this way, with the difference that MNK builds up their burst first while MCH has a front-loaded setup that cycles around.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

Bard's silence does not guarantee kills, you can still LoS when silenced, you can move out of range when silenced, the reason it stays 3s is because it does not prevent 100% of your actions, and it should stay that way because of that.

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Neither did SAM's Mineuchi, RDM's Resolution and BLM's 3s Freeze status, yet they got reduced for reasons beyond the scope of solely the job they belong to. What they all have in common is their accessibility of a low CD / fairly easy build-up.

The only action a Silence (and by proxy, Polymorph) doesn't block is using WASD / left control stick, retargeting, your camera and Purify (except on Poly). Sprint is blocked.

LoSing is obviously a very viable counterplay to simply get out of harm's way. Frankly the map design for 2/3 is lacking, one more than the other, something I mentioned in my original post:

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

1.) Improve map design to offer more LOS objects:
- Palaistra middle
- Cloud 9 map overhaul

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You can't LoS easily during engagements on focal points on this map. Since Sprint is blocked as well, out-ranging anything is also nonsensical, regardless if you jumped or got jumped when receiving Silence.

Considering NIN's 1 second Silence in The Feast was enough to make someone mistime Medical Kit / Recuperate, allowing your whole team to capitalise on it, imagine 3 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Llynethil

It's a supportive class with the lowest damage of all dps jobs, it's 100% reliant on their team to capitalize on their plays, and to keep them alive, almost all other caster or ranged don't need to do this, so no, silence is fine as it is, because you're sacrificing a spot on your team that could be occupied by a job that can destroy an enemy by themselves for a job that boosts everyone else's capability to do so, how hard is it to get that?

Asking for bard pvp nerfs is like asking for machinist pve nerfs, it literally makes no sense.

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You seem to make it sound that BRD is seemingly weak and that Silent Nocturne is the only thing keeping it relevant, along with it 100% being reliant on your team to do anything with your buffs. Let's assume this is true...

Why not sacrifice 1 second out of 3 from the Silence in favour of more "everything else"? Not a nerf, but redistribution of your power?

You drop a second off Silence, leaving you with a standard 2s Silence, you get more firepower, more defensive power, more BUFFING power (Apex, Blast, Fantasia) depending on what the powers above consider. You are now less reliant on your team, still get to have a Silence that matters and anyone on the opposite end of a Silent Nocturne is less frustrated. How is this a net nerf?

Why are you insisting on making me look like I want BRD nerfed and nothing else?

These people have no concept of power budget lmao.

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Originally Posted by Karasio

How do you check which jobs people use in pvp?

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I don't know if there's outside source to see match history, but I've played with most of the top 100 on Light since S1 on my main. They have stuck with the Job basically since the beginning and keep pulling some pretty ridiculous stuff.

As for the other high end people, it varies. Some play ranked on one Job, others focus 2-3 to change based on map or who are in queue at the moment and then there's handful of people that play more, wheter its to roulette when they tilt or to dodge/snipe other players in queue.

If we do what you are suggesting you do you'll be coming to these forums right back to cry about bard yet again because then it's problematic that a ranged class has a 2s silence while doing too much damage now and doing it from "safe" range. (btw there is no safe range in this game when every melee can stick to a ranged easier then a ranged can keep them at a distance).

And again, like I already said, you're making the job more boring and in line with the others, something we want to prevent from doing like how it is in PvE, in PvP we have a strong burst ranged dps for machinist, a supportive ranged dps for bard and a ... well dancer does dancer things and needs some help for sure.

Also the total hypocrisy of crying about LoS on cc maps when in the other threat where people complain about machinist, dark knight and monk punting people off the ramp in borderland for instant kills which you can do barely anything about you tell them:

" "Certain jobs have advantage on certain maps in certain areas in my non-trinity pvp largescale mode, I hate it."

...is all I understand from this. Sorry but other than a map redesign I can not see any reason why jobs with knockback / draw-in effects should be punished for cleverly utilising their kit for environmental damage. This is a PvP classic."

What's next, we gonna be mad at them for drawing people into the track line when the train arrives on Hidden Gorge?"

You can't have it both ways buddy, if you think that crap is fine, then you have no right to complain about the second lowest winrate dps job having a 3s silence that's kind of annoying to LoS out of on 2 maps, get real, you can't go around claiming you want everything to be more fair, when clearly you just want stuff that might affect you get taken down, probably because you play dark knight or monk a lot and the silence screws up the cheese, which is another reason it should stay at 3s, you don't want knockback cheese to change? Fine, then neither should one of the best counters to it.

BRD despite being kinda weak is for the most part fine balance wise. It doesn't need a reduction in its silence timer, period, end of story.

WHM got theirs reduced because their LB also did 5 billion other things while being a fast charge. BLM LB also charges fast and their stun was aoe and spammable during LB. RDM again...an aoe. SAM's reduction didn't make sense honestly and shouldn't have been changed. Stuns in swtor are 8s long, so complaining about a 3s CC in this game is comical, especially a silence where you can still run around and don't have to burn a purify.

The only thing on brd that needs to change to make them less bad is their LB. Either through a redesign or just significantly lower the charge time. As it stands most of my matches I rarely get to use the LB even 1 time.

Man, this broken record of 'They disagree with me so clearly they don't play the job enough' is quickly coalescing into a meme.

The problem with silence isn't really the duration it's the fact it blankets basically everything. I'm silenced so I forget how to swing my axe, Magical warrior herp a derp derp~.

Buff DRG LB and make the damn marker a different color. Just sayin'.

DRG LB is fine the way it is...

Agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Agree to disagree.

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What exactly needs to change about it? Are you using it outside of life of the dragon buff? Because if you are that would explain a lot. Between life of the dragon and the 50% buff when targets are close its nearly 40k potency on top of finishing them off with nastrond if there are any survivors.

DRG LB is fine.

I literally said change the color.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

I literally said change the color.

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It doesn't need to be nerfed, it's already the most obvious and easiest to avoid LB in the game.

If you cannot spare the 0.4 seconds required to check if your team's DRG has LB or the enemy, then you really asked for it.

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

It doesn't need to be nerfed, it's already the most obvious and easiest to avoid LB in the game.

If you cannot spare the 0.4 seconds required to check if your team's DRG has LB or the enemy, then you really asked for it.

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Even if you can check it from the party menu why wouldn't you make them different color? Every other game does this and for some reason 14 is the only one where some LB's have color differences and some don't like they are designed by multiple people who don't communicate with each other :p

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Originally Posted by Nanne

Even if you can check it from the party menu why wouldn't you make them different color? Every other game does this and for some reason 14 is the only one where some LB's have color differences and some don't like they are designed by multiple people who don't communicate with each other :p

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Because you can easily counter the DRG LB with guard, having it display as an obvious red colour if it's an enemy one will make the LB completely worthless unless someone else on the team sets them up, such as WAR, DNC, etc. But that's never going to happen because we can't communicate.

Dragoon LB is the best DPS LB. There's clear counterplay while still having huge impact if it lands. It doesn't need any buffs or nerfs, I'd say it should be the basis for how other DPS LBs are balanced. The marker colour being different is really not needed since you can't just double press the button to pop the hit. You get like 3 or 5 seconds to check if enemy or your DRG used LB. Genuine skill issue

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

Man, this broken record of 'They disagree with me so clearly they don't play the job enough' is quickly coalescing into a meme.

The problem with silence isn't really the duration it's the fact it blankets basically everything. I'm silenced so I forget how to swing my axe, Magical warrior herp a derp derp~.

Buff DRG LB and make the damn marker a different color. Just sayin'.

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i agree with this.

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Originally Posted by Karasio

Dragoon LB is the best DPS LB. There's clear counterplay while still having huge impact if it lands. It doesn't need any buffs or nerfs, I'd say it should be the basis for how other DPS LBs are balanced. The marker colour being different is really not needed since you can't just double press the button to pop the hit. You get like 3 or 5 seconds to check if enemy or your DRG used LB. Genuine skill issue

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Yes lets take 5 seconds to check to see if a LB is friendly or not during a massive brawl, OR they could just change the color :D

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Because you can easily counter the DRG LB with guard, having it display as an obvious red colour if it's an enemy one will make the LB completely worthless unless someone else on the team sets them up, such as WAR, DNC, etc. But that's never going to happen because we can't communicate.

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why would it make the LB useless? lmao its a lb you would use in big fights so making the enemy freak out and run or waste their guard is great.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

I literally said change the color.

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You also said buff DRG LB. The color circle doesn't need to be changed.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

You also said buff DRG LB. The color circle doesn't need to be changed.

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Nah it does, Knowing the color would save people from unnecessary guard burning and the small buff the LB would get is just a potency tweak. feels pretty weak compared to MCH marksman spite and WHM pergedation.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

Yes lets take 5 seconds to check to see if a LB is friendly or not during a massive brawl, OR they could just change the color :D

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You completely misread what I said. You get a time frame of 5 whole seconds to see which side popped the LB. A luxury NO OTHER has because they're instacast. It actually takes a quick little glance to see if it's yours or not. Also, the potency buff your proposed change would come with would either be largely irrelevant since people walk away from it/guard or a game changer since you can combo it with stuff like WAR LB for free damage (in an ideal world where that happens consistently lmao)

I'm not talking about a 50% buff just a little tweak to make it more in line with the other dps that have a means of cc by the way. But the color more than anything. Give me the classic Blue/friendly Red/enemy situation and I'll be happy as a clam on the lam.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

I'm not talking about a 50% buff just a little tweak to make it more in line with the other dps that have a means of cc by the way. But the color more than anything. Give me the classic Blue/friendly Red/enemy situation and I'll be happy as a clam on the lam.

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Raw damage wise, dragoon's LB is considerably stronger than other DPS. But that comes with having no retarded gimmicks and having counterplay of any kind.

I don't follow your logic; can you say you have seen a ninja or machinist limit break coming prior to watching yourself ragdoll? Can you guard ninja or samurai? The gimmick is timing if you ask me. I don't think it needs to be holy Thal's balls boosted just a little nudge and just because it's a pure damage job. The color thing is more for both teams though.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

I don't follow your logic; can you say you have seen a ninja or machinist limit break coming prior to watching yourself ragdoll? Can you guard ninja or samurai? The gimmick is timing if you ask me. I don't think it needs to be holy Thal's balls boosted just a little nudge and just because it's a pure damage job. The color thing is more for both teams though.

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You're saying what I was getting at. Other LBs are just retarded in that they're instacast with no room for counterplay. DRG's has two avenues of not taking damage from it. I've personally never had any issues with discerning which dragoon is using their LB. Mostly because I am the dragoon on my team lol

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

Nah it does, Knowing the color would save people from unnecessary guard burning and the small buff the LB would get is just a potency tweak. feels pretty weak compared to MCH marksman spite and WHM pergedation.

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Boosting the potency is worthless when you stick a billboard on it screaming "GUARD NOW".

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Boosting the potency is worthless when you stick a billboard on it screaming "GUARD NOW".

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And then you'd have people complaining how "DRG LB IS TOO STRONG NERF NOWWWWWW" when they get chain LB'd in frontlines.

It doesn't need any changes. Leave dragoon alone already.

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Originally Posted by Karasio

And then you'd have people complaining how "DRG LB IS TOO STRONG NERF NOWWWWWW" when they get chain LB'd in frontlines.

It doesn't need any changes. Leave dragoon alone already.

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Completely agreed. It might sound biased but there's a reason DRG has no neither buffs nor nerfs, it's perfectly balanced.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

Nah it does, Knowing the color would save people from unnecessary guard burning and the small buff the LB would get is just a potency tweak. feels pretty weak compared to MCH marksman spite and WHM pergedation.

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That's on you for not paying attention. Sorry, not sorry. Its already the most obvious LB in the game with the easiest counter strat to it. Making the circle stupid obvious would just make using it pointless.

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Completely agreed. It might sound biased but there's a reason DRG has no neither buffs nor nerfs, it's perfectly balanced.

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On god. Dragoon should be the basis for balancing other jobs. I am totally biased and I don't care, dragoon is the most balanced job in pvp.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

That's on you for not paying attention. Sorry, not sorry. Its already the most obvious LB in the game with the easiest counter strat to it. Making the circle stupid obvious would just make using it pointless.

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Nobody cares what you think.

https://i.redd.it/7fcu41hi2re41.png

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Originally Posted by Nikoto

Boosting the potency is worthless when you stick a billboard on it screaming "GUARD NOW".

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yeah then they would get rolled by everybody else who would LB after lol do none of you know how to use strats?

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Originally Posted by Karasio

And then you'd have people complaining how "DRG LB IS TOO STRONG NERF NOWWWWWW" when they get chain LB'd in frontlines.

It doesn't need any changes. Leave dragoon alone already.

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nah they can buff it by either making it a stun or increase the potency along with the color change.

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Originally Posted by Towa-Musa

nah they can buff it by either making it a stun or increase the potency along with the color change.

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But none of that matters if you make it even more obvious. That's the whole argument here. You get 5 seconds of time between the dragoon jumping and them coming down which is more than enough to counteract it. Leave. Dragoon. Alone. For the love of god

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Originally Posted by Karasio

But none of that matters if you make it even more obvious. That's the whole argument here. You get 5 seconds of time between the dragoon jumping and them coming down which is more than enough to counteract it. Leave. Dragoon. Alone. For the love of god

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Agree to disagree, Honestly this is another reason for yoshi p to use a test server before patching pvp as nobody knows for certain that what will happen.

You don't need to change the visual of the move, you can do something with the team UI instead, and this goes for all jobs.

Make it so for example the class icons have a dim glow to them, the brighter they light up the closer they are to LB ready, if it pulsates gently the LB is fully charged, if the icon is blinking rapidly, the LB is being used.

You could still misinterpret an enemy lb on occasion, but not only do you majority of time get benefit out of this, it'll allow you to combo LB's in frontline aswell.

See DRG icon blinking and that circle in front of you? Well you can use that dancer LB to combo with it for more devastating effects.
Or if you're a reaper, you can hold back your LB so you don't send everyone scattering before the dragoon has landed, stuff like that.

Having a better visual indication is something that should be done, but making the LB a specific coloured circle is not the way, because as said before, it is by far the easiest LB to safeguard against.

yeah its super easy to safeguard against so why not just give us the color change and aoe stun? not like it will matter lol