People who can't do AOE rotations in 70+ Content

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I wonder if this happens in my groups, and I just don't notice.

I wonder if I don't notice because I just don't care.

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More like you don't notice because odds are it doesn't affect you. There are ways that people playing like that can end up causing more harm to the run, and not everyone feels it equally.

https://i.imgflip.com/32gq1f.jpg

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

If someone level skips, they should take the time to read what their job abilities do before jumping into a duty and dragging everyone else down. Full stop. People who enable people to be bad, toxic drains on the group are just as bad as those same people who refuse to contribute. No one expects savage tier gameplay. Everyone should expect *basic understanding of how the game works*.

Also, something a lot of people forget exists - you can KICK people from your party. It's not mean. It's actively encouraged BY Square. Stop punishing yourselves by leaving when people refuse to respond to civil requests to do the bare basics of the game and actually kick these people. Queue with a friend so you can guarantee it goes through, it only needs two votes yes in 4 mans.

And for the record, there is a rule stating you can't enforce your way of playing on others. This rule works BOTH ways, people who want to just be lazy leeches are NOT allowed to do that, and there's ANOTHER rule that hits them too that basically says you're not allowed to just sit there and be a leech.

And again, because I feel like it probably has to be specified - this is NOT an attack on people that aren't good at the game. This IS an attack on people who refuse to contribute to GROUP CONTENT.

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Yeah, but ain't nobody got time to read stuff. They just want to get to the end game bro. So they can play with their friends. Geeze. Also this game shouldn't be a job kupo. People don't come home from work just to spend time at another job. And you're what going to hope the bad performer isn't the tank and healer so that you won't be sitting around for a few minutes in hopes one joins in progress? How dare you and everyone else tell those people they're not allowed to play the game the way they want to?

@Awesome didn't think you'd become a Fora Knight.

Aldo if anyone thinks I'm actually condoning such behavior just go and look at my post history from back during ShB where this topic would creep up almost every other week and there would be people who reply and die on said hill about how all I said above was an acceptable play style using such defense.

Hey Mollusk you wanna come sit with me and snack on some popcorn?

I have this complain as well, especially when their job are a Black Mage!

They just don't bother to use Flare or any AoE skill but instead spamming Fire 1! :(

It's extra fun when on the rare occasion I choose to queue as a DPS instead of a tank I encounter a tank (usually a DRK, occasionally PLD) that won't AoE on trash pulls. I doubt I need to describe the outcome of such instances.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

More like you don't notice because odds are it doesn't affect you. There are ways that people playing like that can end up causing more harm to the run, and not everyone feels it equally.

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What do you mean it doesn't affect me? If a player's low DPS contribution adds more time to the run, I am every bit as affected as everyone else. The difference is, I don't care, or I am indifferent. I am impacted by this much less than some of the players in this thread because my expectations are set differently.

Not using AoE isn't what I would call harmful to the run. It's inefficient. It isn't a practical use of your toolkit. It also isn't very courteous. "Harmful" though? Nah. This isn't the kind of activity inside dungeons that ruffles my feathers.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

What do you mean it doesn't affect me? If a player's low DPS contribution adds more time to the run, I am every bit as affected as everyone else. The difference is, I don't care, or I am indifferent. I am impacted by this much less than some of the players in this thread because my expectations are set differently.

Not using AoE isn't what I would call harmful to the run. It's inefficient. It isn't a practical use of your toolkit. It also isn't very courteous. "Harmful" though? Nah. This isn't the kind of activity inside dungeons that ruffles my feathers.

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"Harmful", yes :P Like, I'd be like you, I wouldn't care... IF it didn't mean that I had to work harder as a healer\tank to keep up with the pull. If other people aren't doing that effort, why should I? It's not like I'm asking you to exert yourself because I'M exerting myself. I'm saying that these things are baseline, and that not doing them IS rude. Because the only reason I'm exerting myself is to make up for the fact that you are not. That for me is the harm.

It's more than just "oh lol, wacky DPS went ahead and pulled". The tank can grab aggro with one AoE, literally who cares. But dragging the dungeon down because you're focusing on one guy all the time is just going to make the pull last longer. And if it's in a dungeon that hurts a lot, then... yeah, no, you're not just being rude, you are being harmful.

idk if people remember Bardam's Mettle back when it was relevant, but remember that pull before the 2nd boss? ;) Imagine a new healer having to deal with all that but their DPS decided to only burst down one mob at a time.

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Originally Posted by SannaR

Yeah, but ain't nobody got time to read stuff. They just want to get to the end game bro. So they can play with their friends. Geeze. Also this game shouldn't be a job kupo. People don't come home from work just to spend time at another job. And you're what going to hope the bad performer isn't the tank and healer so that you won't be sitting around for a few minutes in hopes one joins in progress? How dare you and everyone else tell those people they're not allowed to play the game the way they want to?

@Awesome didn't think you'd become a Fora Knight.

Aldo if anyone thinks I'm actually condoning such behavior just go and look at my post history from back during ShB where this topic would creep up almost every other week and there would be people who reply and die on said hill about how all I said above was an acceptable play style using such defense.

Hey Mollusk you wanna come sit with me and snack on some popcorn?

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To be fair, sarcasm doesn't come across well in text, nor do I know anything about you. If you're being sarcastic/satirical, then alright, I have no issue with you lol. But yes, there are a lot of people that do think exactly like that and it is MINDBOGGLING.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

"Harmful", yes :P Like, I'd be like you, I wouldn't care... IF it didn't mean that I had to work harder as a healer\tank to keep up with the pull. If other people aren't doing that effort, why should I? It's not like I'm asking you to exert yourself because I'M exerting myself. I'm saying that these things are baseline, and that not doing them IS rude. Because the only reason I'm exerting myself is to make up for the fact that you are not. That for me is the harm.

It's more than just "oh lol, wacky DPS went ahead and pulled". The tank can grab aggro with one AoE, literally who cares. But dragging the dungeon down because you're focusing on one guy all the time is just going to make the pull last longer. And if it's in a dungeon that hurts a lot, then... yeah, no, you're not just being rude, you are being harmful.

idk if people remember Bardam's Mettle back when it was relevant, but remember that pull before the 2nd boss? ;) Imagine a new healer having to deal with all that but their DPS decided to only burst down one mob at a time.

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Bro that pull is STILL sketchy af if the tank and healer aren't on their toes using their CDs appropriately, and that's why DPS *SHOULD* be AoEing the mobs down, because the tank and healer can run out of cooldowns. Corridor before the first boss in that dungeon can also be rough if you're not paying attention, but nowhere near as bad as that pull you mentioned at least.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

Bro that pull is STILL sketchy af if the tank and healer aren't on their toes using their CDs appropriately, and that's why DPS *SHOULD* be AoEing the mobs down, because the tank and healer can run out of cooldowns. Corridor before the first boss in that dungeon can also be rough if you're not paying attention, but nowhere near as bad as that pull you mentioned at least.

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Oh I'll do you one better. That pull, DRK tank, SCH healer, DPS refuse to AoE mobs down.

And this was before you had Living Dead working the way it does now. I could also point out Gunbreaker, but unlike DRK, GNB at least has cooldowns before deciding to shoot themselves in the face to survive. Dark Knight also doesn't have access to Blackest Night yet either, they're not lv 70 yet. Best they have is Shadow Wall and Abyssal Drain. Warrior has Thrill of Battle now and I don't play PLD at all, but it can randomly block incoming attacks, so at least there's that? And I chose Scholar because SCH is specifically the most resource-tied healer out of all of them.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Oh I'll do you one better. That pull, DRK tank, SCH healer, DPS refuse to AoE mobs down.

And this was before you had Living Dead working the way it does now. I could also point out Gunbreaker, but unlike DRK, GNB at least has cooldowns before deciding to shoot themselves in the face to survive. Dark Knight also doesn't have access to Blackest Night yet either, they're not lv 70 yet. Best they have is Shadow Wall and Abyssal Drain. Warrior has Thrill of Battle now and I don't play PLD at all, but it can randomly block incoming attacks, so at least there's that? And I chose Scholar because SCH is specifically the most resource-tied healer out of all of them.

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https://cdn.psychologytoday.com/site...?itok=ZdqGxDBy

This thread is a bit sad. I'm glad you all don't represent the majority of players.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

This thread is a bit sad. I'm glad you all don't represent the majority of players.

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What's sad about it? Care to explain? What error is being posted here?

You know what, I've actually seen this happen in a few endgame roulettes. Very rarely mind you but I do notice when either the DPS or the tank don't focus on spamming their AoEs during mob pulls.

I mean, obviously AoE should be used for group pulls but I doubt the people who still need to be told this at 70+ are reading these forums. Are players who don't use AoE really that commonplace? I haven't noticed it happening to any significant degree.

It's... whatever, really. What do you expect from DF?

Personally i just mind my own business while probably grumbling and ranting 'a bit' in one of my linkshells before moving on. TfDF is another good place to rant lol.

I'm watching.. I know what they're doing. I'm just not gonna say anything unless they behave funnily to the group. That's where I draw the line.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

I mean, obviously AoE should be used for group pulls but I doubt the people who still need to be told this at 70+ are reading these forums. Are players who don't use AoE really that commonplace? I haven't noticed it happening to any significant degree.

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I roulette everyday. The amount of times I see single targeting folks is quite sparse. Probably like 1 out of 10 runs.

Like I mentioned earlier, not performing the most basic of gameplay (AGAIN, ONCE REQUESTED TO IN A CIVIL MANNER) is literally against the ToS.

・Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior
Refers to an act of performing actions that give an advantage to an enemy (monsters, or the opposing team/players in PvP content) by not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation. This may be combined with combat sabotage as well.

https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

It's... whatever, really. What do you expect from DF?

Personally i just mind my own business while probably grumbling and ranting 'a bit' in one of my linkshells before moving on. TfDF is another good place to rant lol.

I'm watching.. I know what they're doing. I'm just not gonna say anything unless they behave funnily to the group. That's where I draw the line.



I roulette everyday. The amount of times I see single targeting folks is quite sparse. Probably like 1 out of 10 runs.

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If you visit Tales of Duty Finder, you should realize you're an enabler if you do this. That's quite frankly just as bad. It quite literally IS your business as they are affecting your group. It even irks you enough to complain to your linkshells.

THANKFULLY, like you said, gameplay like this is NOT the norm and is pretty sparse.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

What's sad about it? Care to explain? What error is being posted here?

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You're being unkind is what's sad. Creating a casual boogeyman to validate your dislike of a group of people when the reality is very few people act like the people in the thread say they act like. I find it sad.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

You're being unkind is what's sad. Creating a casual boogeyman to validate your dislike of a group of people when the reality is very few people act like the people in the thread say they act like. I find it sad.

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Where did I say anything bad about casuals? Please, tell me. I have quite explicitly stated multiple times that my points are directed at people who are intentionally being leeches. Get off your high horse trying to make ME into a boogeyman. I've even agreed that it's not the norm, but when it happens that doesn't make it any less of a problem. And unkind? LOL really? So is it not also unkind of people to leech off of others by making things harder for them? That's also lethargic gameplay, which as I linked above, is against the TOS, soooo I'm not sure how you think you're justified here.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

Where did I say anything bad about casuals? Please, tell me. I have quite explicitly stated multiple times that my points are directed at people who are intentionally being leeches. Get off your high horse trying to make ME into a boogeyman. I've even agreed that it's not the norm, but when it happens that doesn't make it any less of a problem.

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You are loved

https://c.tenor.com/TYXFOBMebN4AAAAd/venat-ffxiv.gif

Cool, you don't have an actual argument. Got it.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

"Harmful", yes :P Like, I'd be like you, I wouldn't care... IF it didn't mean that I had to work harder as a healer\tank to keep up with the pull. If other people aren't doing that effort, why should I? It's not like I'm asking you to exert yourself because I'M exerting myself. I'm saying that these things are baseline, and that not doing them IS rude. Because the only reason I'm exerting myself is to make up for the fact that you are not. That for me is the harm.

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Principle my friend. Principle. If you let the lack of effort of one player influence your own, you're not any better. Worse even. So easily swayed into a defeatist mindset instead of sticking to your guns, and just getting the dungeon run done, and moving on with your playtime.

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It's more than just "oh lol, wacky DPS went ahead and pulled". The tank can grab aggro with one AoE, literally who cares. But dragging the dungeon down because you're focusing on one guy all the time is just going to make the pull last longer. And if it's in a dungeon that hurts a lot, then... yeah, no, you're not just being rude, you are being harmful.

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If you want to argue on the side of it not being proper etiquette, I am not going to argue with you. I actually agree with that. When you start saying it's harmful, I am going to say you are overdramatizing the situation. Especially with my above statement in mind.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

If you visit Tales of Duty Finder, you should realize you're an enabler if you do this. That's quite frankly just as bad. It quite literally IS your business as they are affecting your group. It even irks you enough to complain to your linkshells.

THANKFULLY, like you said, gameplay like this is NOT the norm and is pretty sparse.

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I mean… what am I supposed to do? I didn’t pay sub to voluntarily educate them to AoE lol. That’s on whoever designs the encounter for letting people getaway with too many mistakes & still get carried to butt end of MSQ.

I mean don’t get me wrong. If people ask, I’m more than happy to teach or help. But that’s just not what majority of my encounters turns out. If I have to personally reach out every single one of them, then I will have very little time to spend for my own.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I mean… what am I supposed to do? I didn’t pay sub to voluntarily educate them to AoE lol. That’s on whoever designs the encounter for letting people getaway with too many mistakes & still get carried to butt end of MSQ.

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According to Square, the correct response after politely asking someone to stop slacking is to kick them. It's that simple. Always take a friend with you if possible to ensure it goes through.

And, once again, this is not aimed at "casuals" or people who just aren't skilled, this is aimed at actual leeches/griefers/lazy jerks who just want a free carry.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

And, once again, this is not aimed at "casuals" or people who just aren't skilled, this is aimed at actual leeches/griefers/lazy jerks who just want a free carry.

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Alright, that was me misunderstanding. My apologies.

You’re correct. If it’s a potential leech, I would at least ask for their well being i.e. (“Hey X, are you alright?”) just to be reeeaallly sure. If folk turns out to be leeching then yeah.. they deserve a boot.

it's almost like the game doesn't actually teach you how to play

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Originally Posted by AmpelioB

it's almost like the game doesn't actually teach you how to play

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Imagine reading tooltips

Imagine Being a Monk, Ninja, Warrior, Dancer, Paladin, Dark Knight, Dragoon, Reaper, Samurai, Machinist, White Mage, Sage, Black Mage, and Summoner and not do your super cool AoEs. Its one of the best parts about playing alot of these job classes! Oh, also forgot Gunbreaker, too. Its new AoE attak is really cool; sad its on such a long cool down. :(

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Principle my friend. Principle. If you let the lack of effort of one player influence your own, you're not any better. Worse even. So easily swayed into a defeatist mindset instead of sticking to your guns, and just getting the dungeon run done, and moving on with your playtime.
If you want to argue on the side of it not being proper etiquette, I am not going to argue with you. I actually agree with that. When you start saying it's harmful, I am going to say you are overdramatizing the situation. Especially with my above statement in mind.

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That is the single most high-horse load of bull I've read all day, and these are the OFs!
Where on earth did you read "defeatist"? Are you honestly saying that you're meant to endure stupidity and people frustrating you and that we should embrace this sort of playstyle in the community and not be outraged when it happens? Overdramatizing? Okay so you're just going to ignore the examples not only that I gave but other people agreed? I read your above statement, and it just reeks of haughtiness. You're accusing me of defeatism? You're accusing me of overdramatizing a situation? But what proof do you have other than nonsensically vague insults, miss? What else do you call disdain for such moments?

Go on then. Let's see you clear Bardam's Mettle as a Scholar with a DRK without them using Living Dead and have the DPS not AoE the pulls at all. Tell me that's dramatizing a situation that actually can happen.

Tell me to my face that people doing the absolute bare minimum and lying to your face about it is dramatizing when just this weekend I had a tank outright tell me she was using more than Rampart. When I, as her Sage healer on Dead Ends, barely could keep up with the damage she took. And I didn't quit, I stayed the whole dungeon. But it wasn't worth it, nor does it say anything about any virtue I might have. Because that's the sort of people you're defending. And calling others that don't want to deal with this "overdramatizing". If you're okay with that sort of behaviour, that's on you, but keep your haughty insults to yourself.

Or perhaps I need to spell it out how exhausting it is needing to deal with that? Especially if you're a new player who isn't used to these things and likely don't have the gear to keep up? You're really going to defend that and tell me that I'm being dramatic? It's taxing. That's what's harmful about it. Nothing needs to be this exhausting, much less in a videogame, now does it? Physical harm isn't the only kind of harm out there.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Imagine reading tooltips

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FireMage has a point. If people managed to go through character creation and read the quests they're given to progress the story, they aren't illiterate. Minimum you can do is read what your skills do.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

That is the single most high-horse load of bull I've read all day, and these are the OFs!
Where on earth did you read "defeatist"? Are you honestly saying that you're meant to endure stupidity and people frustrating you and that we should embrace this sort of playstyle in the community and not be outraged when it happens? Overdramatizing? Okay so you're just going to ignore the examples not only that I gave but other people agreed? I read your above statement, and it just reeks of haughtiness. You're accusing me of defeatism? You're accusing me of overdramatizing a situation? But what proof do you have other than nonsensically vague insults, miss? What else do you call disdain for such moments?

Go on then. Let's see you clear Bardam's Mettle as a Scholar with a DRK without them using Living Dead and have the DPS not AoE the pulls at all. Tell me that's dramatizing a situation that actually can happen.

Tell me to my face that people doing the absolute bare minimum and lying to your face about it is dramatizing when just this weekend I had a tank outright tell me she was using more than Rampart. When I, as her Sage healer on Dead Ends, barely could keep up with the damage she took. And I didn't quit, I stayed the whole dungeon. But it wasn't worth it, nor does it say anything about any virtue I might have. Because that's the sort of people you're defending. And calling others that don't want to deal with this "overdramatizing". If you're okay with that sort of behaviour, that's on you, but keep your insults to yourself.



FireMage has a point. If people managed to go through character creation and read the quests they're given to progress the story, they aren't illiterate. Minimum you can do is read what your skills do.

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that was quite the ..dramatic response.

Also, Imagine that the Imagine guy has a point.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

that was quite the ..dramatic response.

Also, Imagine that the Imagine guy has a point.

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Yep, I'm a dramatic person :P But it doesn't mean that I'm overdramatizing a situation when shit like this is being defended. Stuff like that actually happens and it IS exhausting to go through. And neglecting that over semanthics is ridiculous. I do believe, at least, that I'm allowed to have a dramatic response when I get insulted for saying that there is a harmful consequence to such playstyles, even if it's psychological. You are not immune to frustration, at the very least. And if you have the mental fortitude for it, great, but that's not what's expected of everyone. First should come a baseline skill level, not people understanding babies drooling over the keyboard.

Also, the imagine guy... Soge? o,o

No wait, FireMage, since I said he's got a point? Hey, if he got a point, he got a point ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This isn't kindergarten. You CAN read unless your primary language isn't English, German, French nor Japanese.

Guy may be wacko, but even monkeys can fall from trees, and even he can land one in the bag.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

According to Square, the correct response after politely asking someone to stop slacking is to kick them. It's that simple. Always take a friend with you if possible to ensure it goes through.

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https://i.imgur.com/ISGytfw.gif

Bruh. And here I am just queueing for DF roulettes on my own like a chump, without even worrying about it or forming a militia of Kick Warriors in advance.

even in Sastasha as a brand new player there's not much of an excuse to not use AOEs if your job has them, I started as THM/BLM, unlocked fire 2 and went "hey this does less damage than fire 1, why the hell would I use this" so I googled "ffxiv whats the point of fire 2" and boom I got my answer within seconds and could perform my job as a DPS even in the very first dungeon

Soge, just wanted to let you know that every time I see one of your posts with the big burger pic it puts a smile on my face :)

To be fair, the game should at some point walk you through your class to say explicitly how the rotation is intended to work. As an example, I understood Redmage had the fast cast gimmick, but it took a while for it to click that I was to use the faster Jolt and alternate between the longer light/dark casts. It might have come up in the job quests, but I honestly don’t remember a lot of what is done in heat of the moment battle, or I might do the quest then come back months later to try the job.

The new skill layout might show it better, but a simple line of text with what is a standard core rotation would be appreciated.

In the case of AoE vs 1v1, there should be text saying along the lines of “Certain jobs might differ, but generally you will do more damage using AoE on groups of 3+ targets.”

OP just move to EU
if you take a look a majority of the people against AOE in dungeons are from NA
also don't waste your time in these forums, it's a very toxic environment and the devs don't read feedback from here otherwise they would ban people with low quality comments like "You won't be missed"
or "this is a sad thread"

I've been running a LOT of roulettes lately as I have leveled both Dancer and Machinist on my Bard on one of the new EU servers up to 70. I have noticed I am often the only one using AOE. This frequently ends badly for me since I end up pulling off the tank. So my practice has now become. Watch the first couple of pulls and see if the tank is using AOE. If yes then I can go ham with the AOE. If not I gotta hold back a bit as the tank is going to take awhile getting good aggro on the pack. Sorry if that upsets anyone but I am tired of running back because the tank didn't have aggro.

That said I have always lived by the principle that if you sign up for randoms you get randoms and deal with what you get.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

If you queue using duty finder you should have zero expectations.

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You literally cannot have 0 expectations if you're doing something. Doing something, period, always is with an expected result.

To have 0 expectations is to not do it, but even that itself has expectation.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

If you let the lack of effort of one player influence your own, you're not any better. Worse even.

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Then let me be worse. It's not like I'm actually playing wrong if I give as much effort as them. After all, if I'm at that point, the group's already concluded his action is okay, which means it's not only approved, but reportable if kicked afterword.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Please stick to Squadrons, Duty Support, and Trust.

This is aimed at people who like to do single target rotations when people wall to wall for them. You're legitimately a detriment to the party.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

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Who could this whining possibly be for? I don't get it, you must be incredibly cursed with DF.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Imagine reading tooltips

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These tool tips won't help me because I can't read!

But for real, when I first tried out RPR (and any other expansion Job), first thing I did was practice on a dummy until I got a feel for it. Read the tool-tips, put the skills here and there on my cross-hotbar (one for single target, another for AoE) and then I was ready to dungeon.

Nice discussion so far. Left corner is " play like i want!" Right side is" I play however I want!" Its as old as MMOs and will be forever a reason to fight on the forum and some nice entertainment for me to read. So please go on!
Oh and if this post was too "low quality" for some i will throw in my personal opinion: if you meet those "underperforming" ppl too often then its time for a break because you probably played for hours in DF and this lets the odds rise in meeting those people more often than average, which is pretty low in my experience.