Please make Verraise accessible at level 12

I'd rather we get a weaker version of Verflare and Verholy, that reuses the old animations, at level 58 that upgrades to Verflare 2 and Verholy 2 at 68 and 70.

I'm not sure if you guys are being obtuse on purpose, but this thread was just meant to ask for parity with the other jobs. All the other Raise spells are available at level 12. This one is stuck at 65, for some reason.
Not being able to raise in ARR and HW duties when SMN is able to do it before you can even get into a dungeon doesn't make sense, and frankly, it would help with Mentor or Alliance roulette quite a lot. Everybody can do mistakes, and you're able to compensate for them post level 65, when new players got a good grasp at the game. Not 15-64, for some reason, when it would arguably be the most useful. Kinda reminds me of Leeches being Level 40, it's just there at that level, for some reason.

Raise being available on DPS jobs and if it should be there, or should even exist in the first place is another topic all together. All I'm asking is it being accessible in ARR and HW. Just like SMN can.

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Originally Posted by Doragan

I'm not sure if you guys are being obtuse on purpose, but this thread was just meant to ask for parity with the other jobs. All the other Raise spells are available at level 12. This one is stuck at 65, for some reason.
Not being able to raise in ARR and HW duties when SMN is able to do it before you can even get into a dungeon doesn't make sense, and frankly, it would help with Mentor or Alliance roulette quite a lot. Everybody can do mistakes, and you're able to compensate for them post level 65, when new players got a good grasp at the game. Not 15-64, for some reason, when it would arguably be the most useful. Kinda reminds me of Leeches being Level 40, it's just there at that level, for some reason.

Raise being available on DPS jobs and if it should be there, or should even exist in the first place is another topic all together. All I'm asking is it being accessible in ARR and HW. Just like SMN can.

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Its not just "for some reason." Its because RDM has dualcast.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Its not just "for some reason." Its because RDM has dualcast.

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Have to agree with that one. On summoner decision to use Swiftcast + Res is an opportunity cost as you could just use it on your Ruby Rite. That also means you can only raise one person per minute without sacrificing 3 GCDs worth of time to do so and risking getting hit in the process. Red Mage in the meantime doesn't have that limitation. Your resurections will always take only one GCD each without limiting your mobility.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Why do you think I called them out on it? Maybe pay attention next time

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Rongway did in this post, in a post with no loose ends.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Angel Whisper is irrelevant. Blue Mage is a limited job that does not do normal content with normal party compositions. And unlike RDM, blue mages are healers or hybrids, when they are designated to act in such capacity in their all-Blue Mage parties.

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What you did was respond on Magius' trash response to Rongway, just further fueling into it rather than just letting it be.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

There was no salt, you were trolling and strawmanning. Once a QR always a QR

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So before you call ME out for not paying attention maybe reflect on yourself I paid attention and from my point of view, you literally added nothing of value by feeding into him.

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Originally Posted by Jaquan

Have to agree with that one. On summoner decision to use Swiftcast + Res is an opportunity cost as you could just use it on your Ruby Rite. That also means you can only raise one person per minute without sacrificing 3 GCDs worth of time to do so and risking getting hit in the process. Red Mage in the meantime doesn't have that limitation. Your resurections will always take only one GCD each without limiting your mobility.

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True. Just to add though, while Red Mage has an easier time, it costs alot of potency by not dual-casting Verthunder/aero (III) from both the initial potency and the potency tied from the resource-building, likely more than replacing a Ruin III cast from SMN.

Also while it is a slight gain / safety to Swiftcast a Ruby Rite (before 86) or Slipstream, you have a bit of freedom on the order of Summon casts, so you can shift hard-cast phases as you like, leaving Swiftcast more freely to use for Resurrection at minimal DPS loss vs Verraise.

Either way, if a RDM had to Verraise twice in a short time... then things definitely went ugly and depending on the content this may be a wipe by default, either early via presence check or late via dps check.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Rongway did in this post, in a post with no loose ends.



What you did was respond on Magius' trash response to Rongway, just further fueling into it rather than just letting it be.



So before you call ME out for not paying attention maybe reflect on yourself I paid attention and from my point of view, you literally added nothing of value by feeding into him.

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You have to stand against terrible people. Kind of a social responsibility deal

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

True. Just to add though, while Red Mage has an easier time, it costs alot of potency by not dual-casting Verthunder/aero (III) from both the initial potency and the potency tied from the resource-building, likely more than replacing a Ruin III cast from SMN.

Also while it is a slight gain / safety to Swiftcast a Ruby Rite (before 86) or Slipstream, you have a bit of freedom on the order of Summon casts, so you can shift hard-cast phases as you like, leaving Swiftcast more freely to use for Resurrection at minimal DPS loss vs Verraise.

Either way, if a RDM had to Verraise twice in a short time... then things definitely went ugly and depending on the content this may be a wipe by default, either early via presence check or late via dps check.

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To add further: if someone dies in the middle of your melee combo, 2 minute burst, or God forbid potted burst, and neither healer can get the raise for one reason or another...

That doesn't feel good.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

You have to stand against terrible people. Kind of a social responsibility deal

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Nowhere does it say that you "have to", this is your own choice. That said, nothing improved when you did, so I doubt the value of this "social responsibility". All it did was make you look like a keyboard warrior.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

To add further: if someone dies in the middle of your melee combo, 2 minute burst, or God forbid potted burst, and neither healer can get the raise for one reason or another...

That doesn't feel good.

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...holy smokes, we straight up call "wipe it" in P7S and P8S when it happens during 2min bursts because you lose an obscene amount of damage in that time frame. I feel you and it 100% doesn't feel good, yeah.

Funny how we go full circle btw, this straight up leads to the problem with the 2min burst meta.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Progging means DPS checks and enrages, better DPS means more rotation mistakes by others allowed.

The game should not be balanced around progression, that's ridiculous. It's okay if some jobs are better at progging than others, just as it's okay if some jobs are better at clearing than others, so long as every job is relatively balanced with each other in total DPS contribution and viable in both prog and clearing.

BLM needs to be the highest total DPS in the game, currently it's behind all melee, which makes it "bad." RDM is currently 9th, only above MCH. So this gap is more than currently substantial enough to still want to bring BLM over RDM.

I don't want it removed because it's 'useless,' I want it to remain because RDMs being able to raise is core job identity and class fantasy from previous FFs to me. I love that they can save pug roulette runs in alliance raids. That stuff "doesn't matter," but it's fun and adds job flavor. They shouldn't suffer DPS for it.

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The game shouldn't be balanced around progression? are we not playing the same game? why should the game be more importantly balanced around reclears...? at that point you know the fight and DPS checks are a joke... Sure we should have parts balanced around reclears but Progression of a fight has always been a big focus on balance, It's ridiculous to act like progression isn't something they should balance around

So what you're saying is RDM raise is useless but you also like it because it's apart of it's "core identity" when in turn you really don't care about "identity" of jobs like BLM, BLM has always been known as a "high damage" job compared to a job like RDM which is meant to be a half healer half DPS we shouldn't use job identity as a reason for poor balancing, if you want to focus on actual balance and abilities to make red mage "good" or more "viable" then just remove raise and buff its dmg, end of discussion, like I've said 100 times again and again people will pick something with utility and more mobile/easier like Summoner, over "does more dmg" Also not saying there should be a significant difference like their is right now.

If you want RDM/SMN to be "progression jobs" that's fine, but giving them 1% off blm damage just makes BLM practically redundant in anything like progression, reclears it's ok? but 1% really doesn't matter when you're overgeared and know the fight, again I don't know if we're playing the same game here.

Like I've said remove ver-raise if you want to be 1% off or do BLM damage. It's pretty simple (and balanced, even if it makes the game more boring), Also just remove raise from savage, let rdm keep it for casual content, problem solved really.

How about in addition to this, we make sure that EVERY SINGLE CLASS IN THE GAME has an AOE by 15? THat would be nice, SE, and should be the default.

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Originally Posted by Videra

How about in addition to this, we make sure that EVERY SINGLE CLASS IN THE GAME has an AOE by 15? THat would be nice, SE, and should be the default.

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That one I can get behind.

Just put the raise spell in role action.

Healer role action: Lv12 Raise Cast:8s Recast:2.5s
Caster role action: Lv50 Resuscitate Cast:8s Recast:60s/120s

I totally agree, I mean we are the Rez mage and it's in our identity, healers get there's at 12 so why not us, I even say give us veracure at like 15.

My theory though is we get it at 64 so that SMN raise can shine at earlier levels, bit SMN only gets there raise at 12 cause of the arcanist class and were it's tied to SCH.

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Originally Posted by VictorTheed

I totally agree, I mean we are the Rez mage

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No, we aren't

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Originally Posted by VictorTheed

I totally agree, I mean we are the Rez mage and it's in our identity, healers get there's at 12 so why not us, I even say give us veracure at like 15.

My theory though is we get it at 64 so that SMN raise can shine at earlier levels, bit SMN only gets there raise at 12 cause of the arcanist class and were it's tied to SCH.

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Red Mage identity is "Spellblade melee Caster hybrid", not Rez Dispenser. If you think being a Rez Dispenser is an identity, let alone one you want, I urge you to play healer.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Red Mage identity is "Spellblade melee Caster hybrid", not Rez Dispenser. If you think being a Rez Dispenser is an identity, let alone one you want, I urge you to play healer.

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U don't want me on healer, bad things happen when I'm on healer, people die.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

No, we aren't

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You literally are. Rez mage is literally why prog groups bring a rdm along and then swap them out once they start clearing.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

You literally are. Rez mage is literally why prog groups bring a rdm along and then swap them out once they start clearing.

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I see you still choose not to read posts. Go back and read the past several posts until you get it. If you reply without a proper education you will get no further attention from me here, dismissed

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Red Mage identity is "Spellblade melee Caster hybrid", not Rez Dispenser. If you think being a Rez Dispenser is an identity, let alone one you want, I urge you to play healer.

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White mana = Healing aspects, no your job identity is half healer. Even if you wanna make up rdm job identity, it makes sense the job that its meant to use both "white mana" and "black mana" would turn into a "support" job, obviously ff14 doesn't really allow for "support jobs" because any deviation from the norm in job design must be removed from the game. (from a lot of high end players, because they want efficiency over identity/fun, mind you not every high end player).

Again "just play healer lol" when healers are boring and its a way to "avoid" discussing the use cases of RDM, it's current design isn't meant to be black mage with melee phase it's a support hybird, It's not a reason why you would balance a job because identity shouldn't always play a part in balance, so you can remove raise anyway.

You say that as if its somehow RDM's fault healers are bad, or that its fine for RDM to have this crisis of identity because healers are bad.

Full stop if your fantasy is healing go play healer, not dps.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

I see you still choose not to read posts. Go back and read the past several posts until you get it. If you reply without a proper education you will get no further attention from me here, dismissed

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Whatever you say rezmage who doesn't even do good dps. You figure out how to avoid those damage down mechanics yet?

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

White mana = Healing aspects, no your job identity is half healer. Even if you wanna make up rdm job identity, it makes sense the job that its meant to use both "white mana" and "black mana" would turn into a "support" job, obviously ff14 doesn't really allow for "support jobs" because any deviation from the norm in job design must be removed from the game. (from a lot of high end players, because they want efficiency over identity/fun, mind you not every high end player).

Again "just play healer lol" when healers are boring and its a way to "avoid" discussing the use cases of RDM, it's current design isn't meant to be black mage with melee phase it's a support hybird, It's not a reason why you would balance a job because identity shouldn't always play a part in balance, so you can remove raise anyway.

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Okay so you have no clue what you're talking about. Inform me what gives white mana, go ahead

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Originally Posted by Ayden

Just put the raise spell in role action.

Healer role action: Lv12 Raise Cast:8s Recast:2.5s
Caster role action: Lv50 Resuscitate Cast:8s Recast:60s/120s

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Make it 300s and change/remove Angel Whisper. Now BLU groups don't have an excuse to not rez and THM gets some of its identity back.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Okay so you have no clue what you're talking about. Inform me what gives white mana, go ahead

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White Mana = Stone/areo spells and some other stuff like verholy, I don't even know what you're talking about, I've played red mage lmao.
RDM is meant to be half white mage half black mage, it just makes sense it has "support options" it doesn't fit current design but fits it's identity lol, if you don't think it does then you haven't played any other Final fantasy game

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

You say that as if its somehow RDM's fault healers are bad, or that its fine for RDM to have this crisis of identity because healers are bad.

Full stop if your fantasy is healing go play healer, not dps.

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No because people like you think it's a good argument to say "Just play healer" because people want to raise as a DPS role, If you want to say "raise shouldn't be on rdm" that's fine I agree with that from a balanced view point. Not a Job identity view point or anything that would make the game more interesting.

You act as if "just play healer" is a big debunk of anyone wanting a support option on DPS, when it's not, I'm also not blaming RDM for bad healer design but you're telling people to just go play glare spam the role, it's not productive at all, Peoples "fantasy" of red mage is being either a support or spellblade caster, like it or not. Classic RDM has always been a hybrid

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

White mana = Healing aspects, no your job identity is half healer. Even if you wanna make up rdm job identity, it makes sense the job that its meant to use both "white mana" and "black mana" would turn into a "support" job, obviously ff14 doesn't really allow for "support jobs" because any deviation from the norm in job design must be removed from the game. (from a lot of high end players, because they want efficiency over identity/fun, mind you not every high end player).

Again "just play healer lol" when healers are boring and its a way to "avoid" discussing the use cases of RDM, it's current design isn't meant to be black mage with melee phase it's a support hybird, It's not a reason why you would balance a job because identity shouldn't always play a part in balance, so you can remove raise anyway.

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Putting aside that in various FF titles White Magic was not exclusively healing / raising / defensives but also contained offensive and debilitating magic, something FFXIV put in the forefront by making Stone, Aero, Water and Holy used by White Mages more than Black Mages, it should appear as obvious that "Black Magic" and "White Magic" are both highly offensive magic schools. What do you think the Amdapori White Mages uses in the War of the Magi against the Black Mages of Mhach, f-ing Cure III and Raise?

White Mana is generated by spells originating from the school of White Magic.
Black Mana is generated by spells originating from the school of Black Magic.

The identity of a Red Mage is using Acceleration on both magic schools or unique magic (Jolt, Scatter, Impact, Scorch) to enhance a limited amount of aether (by nature of how their magic works in lore they have to do so), with remaining residual mana being stored in their Rapier + Focus, which is THEN used for your infamous melee combo. The fact Red Mage just happens to have minor healing / defensive tools is just a small part of it.

Red Mage is a Caster utilising modified versions of White & Black Magic + a melee weapon for Spellblade combos.

Yes, our dear community happens to identify Red Mage with Rez Dispenser, something we have lamented for a while now. I'd love if they stopped doing that.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

White Mana = Stone/areo spells and some other stuff like verholy, I don't even know what you're talking about, I've played red mage lmao.
RDM is meant to be half white mage half black mage, it just makes sense it has "support options" it doesn't fit current design but fits it's identity lol, if you don't think it does then you haven't played any other Final fantasy game



No because people like you think it's a good argument to say "Just play healer" because people want to raise as a DPS role, If you want to say "raise shouldn't be on rdm" that's fine I agree with that from a balanced view point. Not a Job identity view point or anything that would make the game more interesting.

You act as if "just play healer" is a big debunk of anyone wanting a support option on DPS, when it's not, I'm also not blaming RDM for bad healer design but you're telling people to just go play glare spam the role, it's not productive at all, Peoples "fantasy" of red mage is being either a support or spellblade caster, like it or not. Classic RDM has always been a hybrid

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The "just play healer" point is something I dropped for people who see RDM as a Rez Dispenser with nothing else. I'm not sure why you think this hard into it.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Putting aside that in various FF titles White Magic was not exclusively healing / raising / defensives but also contained offensive and debilitating magic, something FFXIV put in the forefront by making Stone, Aero, Water and Holy used by White Mages more than Black Mages, it should appear as obvious that "Black Magic" and "White Magic" are both highly offensive magic schools. What do you think the Amdapori White Mages uses in the War of the Magi against the Black Mages of Mhach, f-ing Cure III and Raise?

White Mana is generated by spells originating from the school of White Magic.
Black Mana is generated by spells originating from the school of Black Magic.

The identity of a Red Mage is using Acceleration on both magic schools or unique magic (Jolt, Scatter, Impact, Scorch) to enhance a limited amount of aether (by nature of how their magic works in lore they have to do so), with remaining residual mana being stored in their Rapier + Focus, which is THEN used for your infamous melee combo. The fact Red Mage just happens to have minor healing / defensive tools is just a small part of it.

Red Mage is a Caster utilising modified versions of White & Black Magic + a melee weapon for Spellblade combos.

Yes, our dear community happens to identify Red Mage with Rez Dispenser, something we have lamented for a while now. I'd love if they stopped doing that.

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Raise makes sense from a job identity standpoint, "rez dispenser" isn't it's identity fully but it makes sense why the "half white mage" would have a battle raise honestly I don't know why now people are trying to argue that Rdm identity shouldn't have a raise, I dont even think raise is balanced right now it means RDM has to be behind BLM, why are we balancing and talking about identity

"Just play a healer" is a big debunk against people whose whole fantasy with Red Mage *is* that healer fantasy of raising people, yes. You can say "healers are boring" all you want but thats no reason to go to another role...hoping to retain the healer fantasy.

Hybrids. Don't. Work. In trinity based tag target MMOs. They don't work in XIV. "Identity" this and "but its boring" that, sure fine we already know you and I don't find fun in the same way; you prefer "bring the job, not the player" type balancing because that way you can have fun bringing jobs with different tools to handle situations, I prefer "bring the player not the job" because it sucks to have people having to ping pong jobs across their own role just to keep up at best, and people's favorite jobs just getting dumped at worst. That's a bridge we'll never quite gap.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Raise makes sense from a job identity standpoint, "rez dispenser" isn't it's idenity fully but it makes sense why the "half white mage" would have a battle raise :^)

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Doesn't make sense why they're better at it than WHM :^)

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

"Just play a healer" is a big debunk against people whose whole fantasy with Red Mage *is* that healer fantasy of raising people, yes. You can say "healers are boring" all you want but thats no reason to go to another role...hoping to retain the healer fantasy.

Hybrids. Don't. Work. In trinity based tag target MMOs. They don't work in XIV. "Identity" this and "but its boring" that, sure fine we already know you and I don't find fun in the same way; you prefer "bring the job, not the player" type balancing because that way you can have fun bringing jobs with different tools to handle situations, I prefer "bring the player not the job" because it sucks to have people having to ping pong jobs across their own role just to keep up at best, and people's favourite jobs just getting dumped at worst. That's a bridge we'll never quite gap.

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Again it really isn't a good argument you just come off as saying play healer for any support option, when healer currently isn't even designed well, you don't realise that people do want to play that more support orientated "DPS" You're just closing off any discussion or arguments by saying that.

Hybrids *can* work they're just a mess to balance and I do see where you're coming from at least from a balanced view point it would be very messy and un ideal to balance., it is boring job design and I'll stand by this to have no sort of general "support" options, but its likely the most balance if you gave all dps no support options and the same damage.

Also Its a issue with BLM not really being a job that's good in progression so the current balance of raise is a mess.

Edited:

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Doesn't make sense why they're better at it than WHM :^)

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I edited that comment fyi, Don't want it to make you look like you were misquoting me, I wanted to update it a bit because I don't feel like it was the best way to get my point across.

I can agree with that to be fair, the ability still makes sense from job Idenity

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

White Mana = Stone/areo spells and some other stuff like verholy

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So therefore it's already half WHM half BLM. Therefore in its offensive toolkit ALONE it satisfies the qualification of what a RDM is.. Like it's a DPS or something...

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Originally Posted by FireMage

So therefore it's already half WHM half BLM. Therefore in its offensive toolkit ALONE it satisfies the qualification of what a RDM is.. Like it's a DPS or something...

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Nah RDM has always had healer spells, nice got you statement. Again I don't get why we're arguing I don't think raise (in turn you lose some damage) is balanced, like are we seriously going to debate lore reasons why rdm has raise..? I said it makes sense but it doesn't mean we should balance around lore lol.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Nah RDM has always had healer spells, nice got you statement.

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Irrelevant. It still uses White Magic and Black Magic. THAT is Red Mage's identity in the franchise

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Irrelevant. It still uses White Magic and Black Magic. THAT is Red Mage's identity in the franchise

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and white mage is still a healer, RDM has always had healing spells so having white magic such as raise, vercure makes sense...

This argument is really unproductive so I'm not going to bother with it anymore.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Again it really isn't a good argument you just come off as saying play healer for any support option, when healer currently isn't even designed well, you don't realise that people do want to play that more support orientated "DPS" You're just closing off any discussion or arguments by saying that.

Hybrids *can* work they're just a mess to balance and I do see where you're coming from at least from a balanced view point it would be very messy and un ideal to balance., it is boring job design and I'll stand by this to have no sort of general "support" options, but its likely the most balance if you gave all dps no support options and the same damage.

Also Its a issue with BLM not really being a job that's good in progression so the current balance of raise is a mess.

Edited:

I edited that comment fyi, Don't want it to make you look like you were misquoting me.

I can agree with that to be fair, the ability still makes sense from job Idenity

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Its a sound argument, the current state of healers is irrelevant to the logic. That logic being: If you want to play a job primarily for its support and healer fantasy, then you should play the role designated for that job. If one's primary fantasy and reason for playing RDM is to raise people, one should instead play a job focused on healing and support. There's no two ways about it; to argue otherwise is to say "Healers suck so we're gonna play other roles like we're healers anyway."

Here's the other trick though: the people who play RDM like that? Probably wouldn't even know healers suck. The greater likelihood is they're not confident (assuming the best) or wanting the fantasy without the responsibility (assuming the worst). On a healer filling the healer fantasy they may even have fun because they wouldn't be the ones spamming glare, they'd be living their dreams drowning the tank in cure 1.

Also here's a fun tidbit: BLM is a good prog job. Absent raise, it'd even be better than RDM. It's more immediately mobile than RDM, hits WAY outside RDM's weight class so enrage won't be a big concern, doesn't need to play fast and loose with a pretend
fifth melee spot like RDM, and even has a personal mitigation so it doesn't need babysitting from the healers. Raise is the ONLY benefit RDM brings to prog because outside of that? Barrier is okay at best.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

and white mage is still a healer, RDM has always had healing spells so having white magic such as raise, vercure makes sense...

This argument is really unproductive so I'm not going to bother with it anymore.

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I'm not arguing with you, I'm shutting down your BS that RDM is a support hybrid. It isn't, it's a DPS, that's a fact. You are dismissed

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Nah RDM has always had healer spells, nice got you statement. Again I don't get why we're arguing I don't think raise (in turn you lose some damage) is balanced, like are we seriously going to debate lore reasons why rdm has raise..? I said it makes sense but it doesn't mean we should balance around lore lol.

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For one, many classic FF jobs don't retain all details of what they are. Black Mage doesn't retain abusing elemental weaknesses or consistency in their spell naming (higher number = stronger etc), White Mage essentially lost Protect and Shell, Monk until recently didnt have FFVI Masterful Blitz, etc. FF Games change how jobs operate on a per case basis. Ultima for example is White Magic in FFII, Blue Mage spell learning has varied between literally every iteration of it.

The only truths are that RDM was usually a caster who wielded both black and white magic, thelatter not always being purely restorative let alone supportive in nature and that it had fairly alright melee specialisation.

Tell you what, Im not even against the idea that RDM has supportive abilities. I simply just think Verraise in the case of FFXIV shouldn't be a thing. Recompensation should happen ofc, but Verraise and now Resurrection are clearly massive concern points for devs and players alike.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Its a sound argument, the current state of healers is irrelevant to the logic. That logic being: If you want to play a job primarily for its support and healer fantasy, then you should play the role designated for that job. If one's primary fantasy and reason for playing RDM is to raise people, one should instead play a job focused on healing and support. There's no two ways about it; to argue otherwise is to say "Healers suck so we're gonna play other roles like we're healers anyway."

Here's the other trick though: the people who play RDM like that? Probably wouldn't even know healers suck. The greater likelihood is they're not confident (assuming the best) or wanting the fantasy without the responsibility (assuming the worst). On a healer filling the healer fantasy they may even have fun because they wouldn't be the ones spamming glare, they'd be living their dreams drowning the tank in cure 1.

Also here's a fun tidbit: BLM is a good prog job. Absent raise, it'd even be better than RDM. It's more immediately mobile than RDM, hits WAY outside RDM's weight class so enrage won't be a big concern, doesn't need to play fast and loose with a pretend
fifth melee spot like RDM, and even has a personal mitigation so it doesn't need babysitting from the healers. Raise is the ONLY benefit RDM brings to prog because outside of that? Barrier is okay at best.

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"Just go play healer lol" has no substance, again we have to take into account current healer design is nothing like current DPS design, you cannot have a fun or varied rotation on a job like RDM While playing healer, having some support options on a DPS role is different from being a "pure support" some people like some responsibility, some people like a lot more of the responsibility of support, Just play healer isn't a really good argument, now that you're presenting your points outside of that your view point makes more sense and doesn't come across as dismissive.

I'm sure some people have tried out healer and disliked it but enjoyed Red mage having a backup raise, it's not even about a pure healer fantasy, it's about having support options such as magick barrier and raise to help, obviously I don't always think peoples fantasy should play apart in job balance. The job shouldn't be designed to be the "fill in for a bad healer" but it's nice it has those options, a clear way of changing this is making veraise and summoner raise be unuseable in Ext, Savage ect. So they can focus on it's job damage and balacing out the casters without any tax.

Blm was good this tier because of the insane check, if anything SMN has been the best prog job because of massive mobility, BLM and rdm do struggle with mobility, you might be right that RDM struggles more, you might have a point there.