Proposed changes for underperforming jobs

Part of the problem for red mage atm is verraise conflicts with a lot of mechanics that basically make verraise useless. like devour for example

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Originally Posted by Lucida3b

Part of the problem for red mage atm is verraise conflicts with a lot of mechanics that basically make verraise useless. like devour for example

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I think we can just make it more useful in those situations instead of taking away the concept personally.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I think we can just make it more useful in those situations instead of taking away the concept personally.

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How, and why?

To elaborate: how? Make verraise just flat instant cast, no dualcast needed? Make it force accept the prompt so the player is forced to their feet faster? Make it reraise?

Why? We've discussed this before, and I know we disagree, but fundamentally you're advocating to make Red Mage a psuedo third healer in a game where even the healers prioritize damage. That is the implicit argument being made when you're chasing variety of function so hard in a game as trinity dps focused as XIV.

There aren't many solutions to this problem outside of giving raise as a role action, taking it from everyone, recategorizing the role and making an actual support role, or recategorizing the caster role to be rez caster and damage caster.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

How, and why?

To elaborate: how? Make verraise just flat instant cast, no dualcast needed? Make it force accept the prompt so the player is forced to their feet faster? Make it reraise?

Why? We've discussed this before, and I know we disagree, but fundamentally you're advocating to make Red Mage a psuedo third healer in a game where even the healers prioritize damage. That is the implicit argument being made when you're chasing variety of function so hard in a game as trinity dps focused as XIV.

There aren't many solutions to this problem outside of giving raise as a role action, taking it from everyone, recategorizing the role and making an actual support role, or recategorizing the caster role to be rez caster and damage caster.

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Well people said it's less useful in the new savage fights because of that quote I just replied to... So have less instances of that, make it more useful in those sorts of situations.

Again I don't really think it matters to you because the aim is how to simplify job mechs such as support options as raise because it doesn't "fit" Dps, While I prefer we keep general support options and not have the only different between jobs be a different reskin with the same form and function, even then the whole identity of red mage is to be a mix between black mage and white mage so it having strong support and being a good damage dealer makes sense for the job, not a pure destruction job.

Making utility more useful in progression situations or something that goes wrong, is something I view as a good thing, The game having more options and diversity in roles is a good thing even if it sacrfices "balance" why do you think 2 minute burst meta is a thing? because people complained that raid buffs weren't homogenised enough, so they made them all 120 seconds so we could have easier raid buff alignments, again changing it so "utility is for healers and tanks only!" mentality will yet again make the game more homogenised then it already is.

I rather have a game with weird jank and small imbalance then a game that is very homogenised and lacks varity and isn't fun.

Not going to argue about changing raise more then that it's a matter that people will fundamentally disagree with, I know a lot of players just want red mage to do the exact same form and function as BLM as both are DPS under the caster role, If thats where you're coming from then that's fine I really cannot argue with someone's preference especially if it's more balanced in the long run (just makes the game more dull)

Less instances of 8 man vibe checks would be nice, I agree. They shouldn't be so plentiful outside of Ultimate.

Specifically though, you said (and said again) to make it "more useful in those types of situations" to which I repeat: how? The only way you could would be to make the raise faster somehow, because as it is its too slow to get people up in time. You'd be buffing their situational healing support, probably at greater cost to their actual role of dps, which to be fair I can see SE doing. But at some point just cut the losses and drop rdm into the green with healers honestly; the whole concession of this argument is that its primary identity and usefulness is a recovery tool.

Heck it'd be able to actually be a JOAT at that point since healers in XIV split between damage and healing pretty evenly.
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I'd rather have a game with weird jank and small imbalances too. We're not at small imbalance, though, we're at "this is your dps caster and these are your prog casters you wear until the group is ready to clear then you switch." and "oh yeah this was a bad idea, nerf the damage check they'll forget we let it get this bad."

It's been that way since StB honestly. Black Mage mains having to play Red Mage for prog is no better.

Arthars brought up a good point regarding this that made me chuckle. Even though BLM doesn't have raise, it is still shackled by it, because at a certain point the damage difference is so big that you'd never look at RDM or SMN anyway. They can't buff BLM to be top DPS like it should be because they don't want to buff RDM or SMN because of ease of play / raise.

Also in specific argument, no I don't want RDM to have the same form as BLM. Its disingenuous especially when I know you and I outlined a difference between "variety in function" and "variety in form" and that in making that definition I specified that variety in form is good and variety in function leads to job lockouts in pf.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Less instances of 8 man vibe checks would be nice, I agree. They shouldn't be so plentiful outside of Ultimate.

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>Response to the full post just need to cut it down due to post limits.
More useful in those situations by making less fights where verraise generally conflicts with the fight design, not changing raise it's self.

I consider the imbalance (currently) not large enough if every job can still clear (with the current nerf), P8S was stretching that limit before the nerf and I think SE did the right thing but they also do need to look into jobs beyond that, I also do think it's reasonable to want to avoid being locked out of a certain job such as Machnist for low damage. we should generally strive for weaker comps to be at least viable with minimum item level, I do think theirs always going to be a difference but it's too much right now, But my question is how much are we generally going to ruin a jobs identity for the sake of "balancing", I feel like removing raise from casters or making them shared is another step at making any semblance of uniqueness gone.

They could easily buff all three jobs and phys ranged with them the gap shouldn't be so much between melees and casters, I don't think it would be as impossible to move up all jobs at least because they know "ranged tax" should be reduced if fights are more and more designed around melees.

I think you want RDM/BLM/SMN to play differently but to basically be the same job in form, how current melees work theirs never a reason outside "big DPS" to bring another melee over one, which makes it blander for me, as I generally enjoy more "support" even in a DPS class because it gives the game Varity, I think theirs more to making a Job stand out then rotation.

I don't want BLM or any caster to be locked out in general, most people won't force you to switch, but I understand why some groups would and that does suck, it's being stuck between a rock and a hard place for me as in general I want the game to be balanced and fun for all jobs, but I also don't want job identity and differences between a job to only be rotation and how the job looks, I personally rather we kept support options such as raise like I said I know not everyone will agree with that take and I don't even think it's the best for balance but it makes the game actually feel more diverse and interesting for me.

I want BLM to be top DPS, no raise, limited mobility and the hardest job to optimize in the game with no raid damage buffs. That's core BLM job identity to me. It should always be that way, and any new jobs they add should be balanced to have less damage and complexity than BLM. Giving every caster a raise is just not the way to go, and lowering SMN/RDM DPS simply because they have raise is not the way to go. SMN has Searing Light, RDM has Embolden, that's why they should have less aDPS, not because of raise. I don't really see how this is hard to understand or how anyone could have any kind of other opinion.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I want BLM to be top DPS, no raise, limited mobility and the hardest job to optimize in the game with no raid damage buffs. That's core BLM job identity to me. It should always be that way, and any new jobs they add should be balanced to have less damage and complexity than BLM. Giving every caster a raise is just not the way to go, and lowering SMN/RDM DPS simply because they have raise is not the way to go. SMN has Searing Light, RDM has Embolden, that's why they should have less aDPS, not because of raise. I don't really see how this is hard to understand or how anyone could have any kind of other opinion.

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So you think red mage and summoner should seriously have the same RDPS but still have way better utility, I recall you said they should be about 1% behind, which is pretty bad for current balance as BLM wouldn't really ever be used. I feel like this is the opposite "problem" I had with the other take.

At least with the other one (give blm raise or give none raise) its arguably better for balance even if it ruins my personal perspective on what generally makes a job more unique.

Likewise you'll have to forgive me not quoting you, am on phone and cannot easily edit things.

So "more useful in those situations" meaning "don't have those situations." I can agree to that, again 8 man checks are not ultimate exclusive obviously but the sheer volume of them this tier was ridiculous.
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When I say "variety in form" I mean "they take different roads to reach the same destination." With that said, up or down a percent or two is fine, especially when RDM and SMN would be rDPS jobs relying on team damage while BLM wouldn't. At the moment, the goal of variety of form is achieved; RDM, BLM, and SMN do approach situations differently because the tools they have to approach situations, namely mobility and uptime, are very different. Thus playing a BLM will be a very different experience to playing a RDM. This would be true regardless of if they did similar damage to each other or if RDM arbitrarily lost verraise. Ideally SMN would go back to being like 5.X SMN where it, while still incredibly mobile, did still have to be mindful of its mobility tools, and as far as variety in form is concerned the caster role is perfect. You get to pick what you want to play based on the playstyle you want. Turret caster, "melee" caster, pet caster.

Variety in function necessarily creates situations where you eventually have jobs hard gated. Remember when Paladin was the physical defense flavor tank / "prog tank"? When SAM and MNK were locked out of parties because it not only brought no piercing debuff, but also no aggro management tools a la NIN?

Variety in function is great in single player rpgs, where the trinity is not so strongly enforced. Not so much in a mmo game like XIV, though I hear XI was much better about job identity.

BLM doing 1% more DPS will make it better DPS. 1% is not the same. People will play for 1% better DPS. I don't really see how it's hard to understand or accept.

I don't think we need to delete or tax the raise from RDM and SMN.
Maybe even make it available to jobs such as DNC.

If BLM was 1% ahead of SMN/RDM, it would face the same debacle MCH has been facing since 5.0.
Why bring a BLM if you could have a SMN/RDM that will save healer GCDs and allows them to close that gap of damage?
BLM only has personal utility.

I'm curious what the BLM players prefer, better utility or the damage advantage?

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Likewise you'll have to forgive me not quoting you, am on phone and cannot easily edit things.

So "more useful in those situations" meaning "don't have those situations." I can agree to that, again 8 man checks are not ultimate exclusive obviously but the sheer volume of them this tier was ridiculous.
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When I say "variety in form" I mean "they take different roads to reach the same destination." With that said, up or down a percent or two is fine, especially when RDM and SMN would be rDPS jobs relying on team damage while BLM wouldn't. At the moment, the goal of variety of form is achieved; RDM, BLM, and SMN do approach situations differently because the tools they have to approach situations, namely mobility and uptime, are very different. Thus playing a BLM will be a very different experience to playing a RDM. This would be true regardless of if they did similar damage to each other or if RDM arbitrarily lost verraise. Ideally SMN would go back to being like 5.X SMN where it, while still incredibly mobile, did still have to be mindful of its mobility tools, and as far as variety in form is concerned the caster role is perfect. You get to pick what you want to play based on the playstyle you want. Turret caster, "melee" caster, pet caster.

Variety in function necessarily creates situations where you eventually have jobs hard gated. Remember when Paladin was the physical defense flavor tank / "prog tank"? When SAM and MNK were locked out of parties because it not only brought no piercing debuff, but also no aggro management tools a la NIN?

Variety in function is great in single player rpgs, where the trinity is not so strongly enforced. Not so much in a mmo game like XIV, though I hear XI was much better about job identity.

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I can't really argue against your argument as it makes the most sense for jobs, I just personally dislike the idea of not really having any support jobs left on dps (other then damage buffs which i find bland), I also would prefer more Varity on tanks then current, PLDs currently in a worse spot as it's just awful defensively and really bad damage, zero reason to use it outside of enjoyment, tanks have more leeway to be more unique at least but they should generally keep similar offense and have similar enough defence, but you can generally make their tools more varied.

I don't even think you're wrong here, your suggestions and changes would likely help balance a lot I just don't really want those sorts of changes from a personal point of view. I personally rather have jobs in the same categories to have more diverse kits ect. (not to the extent where jobs get outright locked out of 50% of groups).

I think I'll concede that really the best solution would be to make raising a caster role action or something (even if i don't want that to be the case).

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I don't think we need to delete or tax the raise from RDM and SMN.
Maybe even make it available to jobs such as DNC.

If BLM was 1% ahead of SMN/RDM, it would face the same debacle MCH has been facing since 5.0.
Why bring a BLM if you could have a SMN/RDM that will save healer GCDs and allows them to close that gap of damage?
BLM only has personal utility.

I'm curious what the BLM players prefer, better utility or the damage advantage?

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This is another route that could be taken. Demote DNC/RDM/SMN/BRD to a "support" role and recategorize the role buffs to emphasize 2 dps/2 support/2 tanks/2 healers. Heck, maybe demote some of the more support focused melee there too.

Then there's no ambiguity about what an actual DPS is and support based jobs can keep their support based identity. Heck at that point they could even be buffed with more utilities like reraise, mana song / mana shift, apocatastasis, palisade, etc.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

BLM doing 1% more DPS will make it better DPS. 1% is not the same. People will play for 1% better DPS. I don't really see how it's hard to understand or accept.

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And this folks is why I'm correct. There MUST be a gap or harder Jobs are punished. Which is why ~5% is correct, not this 1% garbage

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Why bring a BLM if you could have a SMN/RDM that will save healer GCDs and allows them to close that gap of damage?

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Because it does more damage than SMN/RDM and no one should be dying in the first place? 1% is not insignificant.

Also wait, regarding that "will save healer gcds" bit... (following is assuming raise was meant):

First, *may* save healer gcds since nobody is guaranteed to die, second the dps' gcds are still more valuable. The third death within a single minute is the only raise RDM or SMN should grab outside of extremely niche and extenuating circumstances.

Second, ironically Red Mage due to having no personal mit is the caster that most needs babysitting from healers, especially with mechanics like Dominion and Stomp in 8s or the many, many physical raidwides in dsr. Potential cost in healer GCDs, certainly healer resources.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

This is another route that could be taken. Demote DNC/RDM/SMN/BRD to a "support" role and recategorize the role buffs to emphasize 2 dps/2 support/2 tanks/2 healers. Heck, maybe demote some of the more support focused melee there too.

Then there's no ambiguity about what an actual DPS is and support based jobs can keep their support based identity. Heck at that point they could even be buffed with more utilities like reraise, mana song / mana shift, apocatastasis, palisade, etc.

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This actually sounds like a good Idea lmao. I know people would complain but this would actually be really cool, I think DPS would generally need more ranged classes to fill the gap and pure caster dps

How would the support theoretically pair against roles such as tank? I'm guessing it would be pretty far infront of tanks and would also bring a "%" buff for having 2 to prevent 3 DPS 1 support for % buff meta.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Because it does more damage than SMN/RDM and no one should be dying in the first place? 1% is not insignificant.

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It very much is

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Because it does more damage than SMN/RDM and no one should be dying in the first place? 1% is not insignificant.

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In the actual context, it's about 80 aDPS if I'm not wrong?
I don't think it's insignificant but would it be impactful enough?

If we were to increase BLM personal utility (More spellshield, maybe Spellvamp) then it would make sense.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

This actually sounds like a good Idea lmao. I know people would complain but this would actually be really cool, I think DPS would generally need more ranged classes to fill the gap and pure caster dps

How would the support theoretically pair against roles such as tank? I'm guessing it would be pretty far infront of tanks and would also bring a "%" buff for having 2 to prevent 3 DPS 1 support for % buff meta.

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I could draw up some theoreticals later today but I lack a lot of data to write definitives, especially knowing that SE is not likely to listen to them lol. Thank you for the kind words though :D

What I will say is, looking at the current dps spread, we're basically there in all but name already. 7.0 will probably add a new caster and split the role into damage caster and raise caster, so there's also that.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

I could draw up some theoreticals later today but I lack a lot of data to write definitives, especially knowing that SE is not likely to listen to them lol. Thank you for the kind words though :D

What I will say is, looking at the current dps spread, we're basically there in all but name already. 7.0 will probably add a new caster and split the role into damage caster and raise caster, so there's also that.

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Well yeah typing on the forums is like yelling at a wall, but it's always nice to come up with ideas that would make the game more fun/better.
I just really think your idea is the best of both worlds, where we can have more support oriented jobs which (still would kinda be dps, obviously they would need to be behind to function) but also have a strong support focus.

Edit:
I'll also add that as it's 7.0 I hope we get drastic changes such as Storm blood to Shadowbringers, so theoretically it isn't out of the realm of possibilities, SHB > Ew really just felt like the only real change was making jobs more bursty.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

In the actual context, it's about 80 aDPS if I'm not wrong?
I don't think it's insignificant but would it be impactful enough?

If we were to increase BLM personal utility (More spellshield, maybe Spellvamp) then it would make sense.

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Why not? DPS is DPS. People will do anything to be top DPS. If 1% isn't enough then fine, I'm willing to concede for more of a gap so long as it's not too much and it doesn't make BLM have raise or party buffs. The main goal here is that everyone can play every job in all content week 1 prog and clearing and be viable, even if some jobs are better at prog and some are better at clear than others. Doesn't mean you can't prog on BLM and you can't clear on SMN/RDM so long as the gap isn't too big.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

The main goal here is that everyone can play every job in all content week 1 prog and clearing and be viable, even if some jobs are better at prog and some are better at clear than others.
Doesn't mean you can't prog on BLM and you can't clear on SMN/RDM so long as the gap isn't too big.

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This is a sound argument.
Even if BLM was only ahead by a single percent, it would remain balanced and not impede the possibility of a week 1 clear.
We had ShB SMN who had massive utility and was very close to BLM, surpassing it in some cases, no one complained.
Well, to be fair there were complains but not about the BLM and SMN, mostly because of SMN alone.

BLM still has the most mobility and good survival skill after all. Thought I would add more personal mitigation on Black Mage.
Maybe something in the spirit of SAM third eye or MNK Riddle of Earth, something that could be used while casting.

Yeah, and I'm totally fine with personal utility on BLM, though I do still kinda' feel like it takes away from their "glass cannon" identity outside Manaward, but hey I'm not against it. I don't think that has to remain their identity, so long as they retain their "I'm top DPS, I hardcast a lot and rarely move" identity. I know with Triplecast having 2 charges and 60s cooldown they actually have more mobility than RDM in many situations now, which I do think is kinda' a problem and against their identity. I don't think giving RDM more mobility is the answer either, because honest immobile hardcasters is a cool, unique, and fun playstyle (IMO) that this game needs and who better than BLM for it?

Much to Firemage's delight, I think most people didn't complain about SMN's high damage in SHB because they were very difficult to play and kinda' overlooked the job balance issues it caused. The difference in quality of SMNs greatly impacted their DPS, but I was never happy about it because I feel like it should be BLM top DPS as their core identity, while SMN should provide raid damage buffs instead and thus be lower.

Personally I loved the 5.0 summoner, when the egi assault are ogcd the only problem is that the balance of the first tier of eden was catastrophic
huge DPS difference between SMN/RDM and Melee DPS/Black mage similar to current 6.2 gap, then square enix made a small rework which gave it a deal mobility and 11% more damage, it was way too much.

The summoner and the red mage should never have the DPS of a black mage, but the gap with the melee DPS should be reduced even if they adjust the BLM slightly as well.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Yeah, and I'm totally fine with personal utility on BLM, though I do still kinda' feel like it takes away from their "glass cannon" identity outside Manaward, but hey I'm not against it. I don't think that has to remain their identity, so long as they retain their "I'm top DPS, I hardcast a lot and rarely move" identity. I know with Triplecast having 2 charges and 60s cooldown they actually have more mobility than RDM in many situations now, which I do think is kinda' a problem and against their identity. I don't think giving RDM more mobility is the answer either, because honest immobile hardcasters is a cool, unique, and fun playstyle (IMO) that this game needs and who better than BLM for it?

Much to Firemage's delight, I think most people didn't complain about SMN's high damage in SHB because they were very difficult to play and kinda' overlooked the job balance issues it caused. The difference in quality of SMNs greatly impacted their DPS, but I was never happy about it because I feel like it should be BLM top DPS as their core identity, while SMN should provide raid damage buffs instead and thus be lower.

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I don't really think BLM being a glass cannon is part of their identity, if anything they're more considered more a turret job so giving them more tools to avoid being mobile makes sense, not that it would do much good in savage because that damage down is gonna eat through way more than 1 GCD worth of damage, but hey, more defensive tools to make up for the fact that they don't have a self-heal makes sense.

Especially since RDM has vercure and SMN has 2 stacks of a 30(?) percent shield that they can use plus phoenix has built-in healing.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

We had ShB SMN who had massive utility and was very close to BLM, surpassing it in some cases, no one complained.

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In 5.1, Summoner got a massive buff (Around 25-30%), and was frankly the best caster in the game until around 5.4 after it took several nerfs over that course of time.

There was a lot of complaining.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Much to Firemage's delight, I think most people didn't complain about SMN's high damage in SHB because they were very difficult to play and kinda' overlooked the job balance issues it caused. The difference in quality of SMNs greatly impacted their DPS, but I was never happy about it because I feel like it should be BLM top DPS as their core identity, while SMN should provide raid damage buffs instead and thus be lower.

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And just like all difficulty, SMN difficulty was subjective.
Many found it intimidating at first, but others also found the rotation quite easy with 40% of instant casts that weren't punished.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

In 5.1, Summoner got a massive buff (Around 25-30%), and was frankly the best caster in the game until around 5.4 after it took several nerfs over that course of time.
There was a lot of complaining.

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I mention it the line just below.

Yes I remember SMN was overpowered, it didn't helped that TEA released during 5.11 and got half the encounter on multi target, exactly where SMN excelled.
5.2 happened and it wasn't better. The melees were actually put at disadvantage and ranged didn't shined, the casters were at their peak.

The point is, the complains were aimed at SMN being way too overpowered.
After the nerf, it was still powerful, right behind BLM. But were there more complain about the caster role after the nerf?

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

After the nerf, it was still powerful, right behind BLM. But were there more complain about the caster role after the nerf?

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Yes.

Most of them had to deal with Red Mage because Summoner being that strong effectively made red mage obsolete, but there were still complaints about Black Mage power, because if melee hadn't been at a comparative disadvantage, the caster spot was auto-locked (in the sense that if you were to look at it objectively, there was zero reason to bring any other caster if you only brought one) to Summoner.

If you buffed Red Mage to be as strong as summoner, then Black Mage was functionally obsolete. You couldn't buff Black Mage more, because it was already shoving the Melee out of the way, but you couldn't leave Summoner as it was because Red Mage had zero reason to so low compared to it.

At the end of it all, once the dust settled after a few summoner nerfs and a few red mage buffs, I'd argue it was late enough into the expansion that things quieted down because it was now the expansion waiting game. Black Mage had a few % lead, but in terms of participation, Summoner was almost always the preferred choice, with Red mage and Black Mage being behind and somewhat equal in participation until Speedrunning was taken into account, which drew its own criticisms.

A) Red mages don't want to only be "useful" during prog
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B) Black Mages don't want to only be "useful" in speedrunning.

And as it's always been, it comes back to the raise. If a team has a black mage, it usually has a raise caster in addition to it, because no matter how much that value is downplayed, it is almost always better to have it than not. If a team has just one caster, that caster is probably summoner, but you could make the argument these days that Red Mage is just as capable, instead of just being inferior.

The TLDR is that the Raise !@#%s with the caster role, and it needs either the axe or be put into the role actions with heavier restrictions.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

In 5.1, Summoner got a massive buff (Around 25-30%), and was frankly the best caster in the game until around 5.4 after it took several nerfs over that course of time.

There was a lot of complaining.

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the buff was precisely 11% more damage, it's just that the summoner was suddenly terribly broken on TEA because of the multitargets.

but after it they nerfed it several times, and buffed the others and the balancing at the end of shadowbringer was much better than currently.

The big problem is that the summoner got a pretty insane simplification in 5.1, and huge mobility gain, and too much DPS for what he was able to do.


but the 5.0 summoner didn't have much mobility if he wanted to maximize DPS without using ruin II, and had to double or triple weave all the time,
in 5.1 it was relatively easy after the rework.

Give MCH a raise. Call it Defibrillator. Standard 8s casting time, or instant under Reassemble. There, I fixed the game.

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Originally Posted by remiff

the buff was precisely 11% more damage, it's just that the summoner was suddenly terribly broken on TEA because of the multitargets.

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Mm. Varies a bit by encounter but less extreme than I remember. Good catch.

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Originally Posted by remiff

The big problem is that the summoner got a pretty insane simplification in 5.1, and huge mobility gain, and too much DPS for what he was able to do.
[...] in 5.1 it was relatively easy after the rework.

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I believe this is exactly what the root of the problem was.
The job had too many values, be it its DPS, healing, res capability. It wasn't simply the best caster, it was the job iteration with the most value across all expansions.
If possible, running 4 SMN would've been ridiculously powerful, whereas today running 4 SAM today wouldn't be as powerful, not even close.

In term of caster tax. I do agree. For as long raise is a thing, SMN & RDM should be taxed. I'd argue they should be 3% behind the BLM. At the end of the day, raise is really useful in prog and people are already favoring RDM&SMN over BLM for raise with the current DPS difference anyways.

I would say that if BLM was to be only 1% ahead of SMN&RDM then Res needs to be gone / becomes a role action. In proper and ideal scenario, a DPS with party buffs only scales higher as the expansion goes. It makes sense for a selfish DPS to be further ahead on the first tier.

What I dread is a 4th caster that will be a "pure" caster with no res and similar DPS to BLM and then they'll get a "res" caster 8% behind the pure caster DPS. That would effectively kill RDM forever. Main casters would prog first 3 fights on RDM, go on SMN on the 4th fight and when reclears happens goes BLM/4th caster leaving pure Casters the main attraction for 14 weeks per raid tier.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

If possible, running 4 SMN would've been ridiculously powerful, whereas today running 4 SAM today wouldn't be as powerful, not even close.

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Now I have to hop in to post this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdDxjXMMWgU

Still leveling jobs myself, but I wanted to add my two cents:

Firstly, Samurai. I've leveled the job all the way to Shb levels, and... the job is too simple, I feel. It does GREAT damage, and the combos themselves are easy to the point where even a paste-eater like me could get a grasp on them, but... the job feels so easy, that there really doesn't seem to be much fun with it now. If anything, I would actually prefer if the devs made the job just a bit harder to play; make the player have to work a bit more for the high damage, you know? Keep the damage potential, but make the job a bit more in-line with the others.

Secondly, Red Mage. As a RDM main myself, I do find the job to be quite fun; however, something about the job just makes it feel... "off", so to speak. Even in just leveling dungeons, the job feels a bit slow to use; it does great damage and has great versatility, but something about the job just feels like it takes a while to kill. Part of it is the number of times I nearly get a spell off, only to end up having to move at the last second due to incoming attacks, thus canceling the spell and lowering my overall DPS - a recent run through Holminister Switch comes to mind. I think if I want anything for RDM, it would be at least a buff to mobility in some way; again, I don't have the job fully leveled yet, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but that's just what I've noticed so far.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Travel

Still leveling jobs myself, but I wanted to add my two cents:

Firstly, Samurai. I've leveled the job all the way to Shb levels, and... the job is too simple, I feel. It does GREAT damage, and the combos themselves are easy to the point where even a paste-eater like me could get a grasp on them, but... the job feels so easy, that there really doesn't seem to be much fun with it now. If anything, I would actually prefer if the devs made the job just a bit harder to play; make the player have to work a bit more for the high damage, you know? Keep the damage potential, but make the job a bit more in-line with the others.

Secondly, Red Mage. As a RDM main myself, I do find the job to be quite fun; however, something about the job just makes it feel... "off", so to speak. Even in just leveling dungeons, the job feels a bit slow to use; it does great damage and has great versatility, but something about the job just feels like it takes a while to kill. Part of it is the number of times I nearly get a spell off, only to end up having to move at the last second due to incoming attacks, thus canceling the spell and lowering my overall DPS - a recent run through Holminister Switch comes to mind. I think if I want anything for RDM, it would be at least a buff to mobility in some way; again, I don't have the job fully leveled yet, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but that's just what I've noticed so far.

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You're pretty spot on with both observations.

SAM is generally considered one of the easiest jobs to play in the game and has been since SB. However, there are still some nuances to it for optimization at high-end play, but unfortunately removing Kaiten only made it that much easier.

RDM does feel very off at levels below 90 now because they redesigned it for Resolution (level 90 skill) in mind. Before Endwalker, RDM would do melee combo at 80 mana, and you generated mana MUCH faster than you do now. Which means you were meleeing a lot more often than you are right now because Resolution gives another 4 mana. If you're doing sub-80, then you're noticing it even more without Scorch which gives an additional 4 mana. So after every combo at 90, you get 8 mana back on top of the Verflare/holy mana. This lets you do 2-3 melee combos at once during your 2 minute Embolden or at the very least helps speed up the next melee combo again. And yes, RDM is now currently the least mobile of the casters. You'll get a "a little" more mobility at 90 since Scorch and Resolution are both instant cast, but they don't really compare to BLM's 60s double Triplecast, Aetherial Manipulation and Leylines teleport.

The removal of kaiten had far less impact on the difficulty of samurai than the meiko sushi and tsubame gaeshi stacks.

Those point of view feel accurate.

Personally, I see Samurai as a brain dead job to the same severity as SMN. Replacing the positionals (when the fight says they are) with the few hard casts SMN is dealing.

RDM is fluid at 90 but it's incredibly boring. They only have 1-->2/3 or rep 1 with 4/5 procs. Swiftcast + acceleration on 2/3. Then you have this boring melee string 1 to 6 combo. My frustration to RDM continues with mobility behind an actual problem in one fight this tier. The one fight that required a DPS check which made me go SMN which I'm not a fan either. Caster is just an awful role to play right now imho. Melee Fantasy XIV only lets Melee have fun.

That's what I'd like to say but fun of a role or job is arbitrary to the player behind the screen. I don't think I'd enjoy ranged, melee or caster. I feel the only role I may enjoy would be healer right now lol.

Yeah, I try and focus on finding jobs that "click" with me, you know? RDM is good, make no mistake, and it used to click extremely well, but recently it's just been something of a grind to level thanks to the lack of mobility being made clear. Once the job gets some buffs to mobility in it, I'll main it again, but for now I'll pick something different to keep me entertained.

Of course, now I need to figure out which job to actually play; got a few choices, but nothing coherent so far. Probably Reaper, tbh; it's got low damage compared to the other melee jobs, but it's also fun to play. Kinda looking at a healer as well, but A: I completely suck at healing, and B: as an RP guy myself, none of them entirely fit the vibe I wanted, so it's just a wee bit annoying. Still giving them a shot, though, just in case! :D