Endwalker MSQ gripe - *early spoilers*

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

I have a special place in my heart for that time we fought Gaius and let him go into his mecha armor for no reasons.
We literally just stand there while he leaves and then get in his death robot.

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Okay, but like...!! That's not even us just letting him go!

- He talks for what feels like two hours
- We slap him when he goes super sayian
- Then he laughs
- Turns around
- SLOW WALKS into Porta Decumana
- Walks over to his fursuit
- Climbs the stairs to enter his fursuit's cockpit
- Has time to make a whole speech about it

What were we doing the whole time??

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I don't really have a problem with such moments since rarely do people want the reverse to occur. There's many more moments when the Warrior of Light or one of the Scions should just be executed because the opportunity presents itself - but that doesn't happen and people are fine with it. At least to a greater extent than they are whenever the same thing plays out with the antagonists.

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I mean, I guess... But at least we have plot armor, so it's easy to come up with a way to deal with that. Even if it's to just make the Echo "sense a surge in the aether" like the Force or Spidey Sense.

It makes zero sense for us to not Holmgang Misija before she can turn people into her minions.
And worse still was it us listening to Mikoto and never for once considering we don't know the full extent of her very limited visions. Nor do we prepare for that. We don't "secure the vision", we just go in blindly with full faith that it's going to turn out fine. When we don't see the aftermath nor the events leading up to it. We don't even know if, say, Misija gets apprehended at the doors to Delubrum but then a surprise bomb detonates and we all get blown to smithereens!

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Originally Posted by Rhaggnos

These are not civilians, they are military remnants. Holdouts.

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They're military remnants sheltering civilians.

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

Helping random schmuck is the core objective of our heroes. It's the reason why we fight the telephores in the first place.

We did the same thing during Shadowbringers when instead of chasing Vauthry, we helped the people of Eulmore.

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True, and that was irritating as well tbh. The first time I got into the room with Vauthry my first instinct as soon as he began his rant about his own greatness was to want to decapitate him where he stood. If it were me as that WoL Dark Knight I'd have leapt onto him and split open his quadruple chin before his sin eater pet even had time to cover her tits in surprise. Would have saved us all 25h of fetch questing and a whole lot of suffering for a whole lot of people.

Ascian monologues as well. I'd jump into those portals without a second thought, firmly grasping one of those auracite tail plugs and be like "Yes, yes, fascinating stuff, but now the heel of my boot needs to get intimately acquainted with your throat."

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

I have a special place in my heart for that time we fought Gaius and let him go into his mecha armor for no reasons.
We literally just stand there while he leaves and then get in his death robot.

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because if I stopped him I wouldn't get to the fight the giant robot. you seriously expect me to not fight the giant robot? that's absurd

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

I have a special place in my heart for that time we fought Gaius and let him go into his mecha armor for no reasons.
We literally just stand there while he leaves and then get in his death robot.

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You know how villians wait for the transformation sequence? Gaius pulled a uno reverse card and did it on us. Damn that man is good!

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Originally Posted by Rhaggnos

You only come off as peaceful or empathic in a conflict if you've shown yourself to be capable of great violence, and then show obvious restraint. Otherwise you're just going to be considered harmless, not peaceful.

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Quintus knows exactly who the WoL is and that's why he says he's not going to bother with a collar. He knows the WoL's capabilities and that that the WoL is already showing restraint. And he doesn't care. The WoL is a brutal savage to them, and reinforcing that image isn't going to solve anything. It's one of the few places in the game we can't solve things with our fists.

Bad strategy is bad strategy. The Scions constantly taking up the WoL's time with menial tasks has probably killed tons of people.

Approaching Garlemald non-violently turned out to be a good call in the long run, but it's one of few times the WoL going along with their plans hasn't needlessly complicated matters. The vast majority of "bad guys" in the game could've been dealt with earlier and with far fewer casualties than they were simply by the WoL deciding to pull out ye olde "breaking limits as only a Warrior of Light can" and slapping the fudge out of them at the earliest opportunity.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Quintus knows exactly who the WoL is and that's why he says he's not going to bother with a collar. He knows the WoL's capabilities and that that the WoL is already showing restraint. And he doesn't care. The WoL is a brutal savage to them, and reinforcing that image isn't going to solve anything. It's one of the few places in the game we can't solve things with our fists.

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This notion keeps coming up, but why exactly do they see you aa a savage? The whole deal with Gaius?

They were invading foreign lands and syphoning ether through magitech to summon eikons. Defending yourself is hardly worth being labelled the next Ghengis Khan

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Bad strategy is bad strategy. The Scions constantly taking up the WoL's time with menial tasks has probably killed tons of people.

Approaching Garlemald non-violently turned out to be a good call in the long run, but it's one of few times the WoL going along with their plans hasn't needlessly complicated matters. The vast majority of "bad guys" in the game could've been dealt with earlier and with far fewer casualties than they were simply by the WoL deciding to pull out ye olde "breaking limits as only a Warrior of Light can" and slapping the fudge out of them at the earliest opportunity.

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Quite true.

Luckily the Ascians also have this Bond-villain-esque tendency to go about everything in the most obnoxiously frivolous and roundabout way, which eventually bites 'em in the ass. Which is how things balance out I guess.

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Originally Posted by Rhaggnos

This notion keeps coming up, but why exactly do they see you aa a savage? The whole deal with Gaius?

They were invading foreign lands and syphoning ether through magitech to summon eikons. Defending yourself is hardly worth being labelled the next Ghengis Khan

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Because that's how they see all Eorzeans, savages who use magic, and us as the biggest and baddest and most brutal of all. Remember every time any of them see us, we're mowing down their people around them. Whether they've been misled by propaganda or not, we've been positioned as their enemy and our behavior toward them to that point has only reinforced that idea. We are their Zenos.

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Originally Posted by Rhaggnos

In what universe does a chosen entity that can single-handedly murder primals (Ifrit, Tsukuyomi, Ravana... unless I misunderstood something?) just rolls over because a wounded commander and a pack of freezing bums in a subway ditch want to collar his companions out of distrust?

Seriously, the answers you get are sooooo meak xD

Here's how to get that point across and save a couple quests: knock every last one of them on their ass, then go "See, I could invade your country alone if I wanted to. I'm here to help. Can we be civil now?"

Like, bros, I'm not trapped in here with you, you're trapped in here with me. Know your place ^^

Seems a lot more effective than trying to look as pathetic as possible in the hopes of getting pity points to buy your seal of approval with at the Garlemald gift sotre :P

These RPG people are lucky I don't get a say in how the MC behaves, I'd go full Vegeta / Ainz Ooal Gown on their ass.

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Knocking someone on their butt is not the way to show friendly intentions or gain their trust.

I have to wonder where you grew up that you think it's the right way to go.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Knocking someone on their butt is not the way to show friendly intentions or gain their trust.

I have to wonder where you grew up that you think it's the right way to go.

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Typical Jojoya, coming into a thread for the first time only to make a personal attack and offer nothing of substance to the debate. Seriously, nothing OP said in any way denotes how he deals with life issues it's a video game.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

??

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Criticism of a video game story being countered with criticism on a personal level. A tale as old as time on these forums.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Typical Jojoya, coming into a thread for the first time only to make a personal attack and offer nothing of substance to the debate.

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Typical SentioftheHoukai, coming into a thread for the first time only to make a personal attack and offer nothing of substance to the debate.

So you're stalking Jojoya, now, too, SentioftheHoukai?
They should feel honored; acquiring the right enemies is "the stuff of accolades."

You all should get a room, the tension between you people is getting silly. Every thread it's the same nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Knocking someone on their butt is not the way to show friendly intentions or gain their trust.

I have to wonder where you grew up that you think it's the right way to go.

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I'm not the one who started hostilities in this scenario, am I?

Showing friendly intentions (again, in this case) is better done *after* making it crystal clear that we will not be threatened or coerced, and that they are in no position to make demands.

I've already proven my goodwill by merely accepting to come here on their terms. They shouldn't push their luck.

As to the rest of your comment it's pretty irrelevant, really. Think of it what you will. It matters little.

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Originally Posted by Rhaggnos

I'm not the one who started hostilities in this scenario, am I?

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Technically you did come marching into their homeland at the front of an army.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Typical SentioftheHoukai, coming into a thread for the first time only to make a personal attack and offer nothing of substance to the debate.

So you're stalking Jojoya, now, too, SentioftheHoukai?
They should feel honored; acquiring the right enemies is "the stuff of accolades."

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...?

Sentai's point is sound. I strongly disagree with the OP's stance on how the Garleans should have been dealt with, but we're ultimately talking about pixels in a video game and it's persistently creepy that elements of this game's community try to draw comparisons between what people desire to do in a video game and what they'd do in the real world.

It's not like people suddenly approve of serial killers just because they join the Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion or Skyrim.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

but we're ultimately talking about pixels in a video game and it's persistently creepy that elements of this game's community try to draw comparisons between what people desire to do in a video game and what they'd do in the real world.

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In GTA I like to shoot at people in the streets and gamble all my money away. I guess the person you're replying to thinks I do this IRL too.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Technically you did come marching into their homeland at the front of an army.

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Are we talking about Ala Mhigo?

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Technically you did come marching into their homeland at the front of an army.

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And it has to be remembered, we're the iLevel-ridiculous WoL.
The NPCs at issue are about as much of a threat to us as two-year old children, maybe even less.
So there's no need, little to gain, and much lasting harm that can come from going "full Vegeta / Ainz Ooal Gown" on them.
Better is to simply patiently endure their tirades and ineffective attacks until they realize the futility of them.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

And it has to be remembered, we're the iLevel-ridiculous WoL.
The NPCs at issue are about as much of a threat to us as two-year old children, maybe even less.
So there's no need, little to gain, and much lasting harm that can come from going "full Vegeta / Ainz Ooal Gown" on them.
Better is to simply patiently endure their tirades and ineffective attacks until they realize the futility of them.

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If it is indeed true that both we as well as them know this entire interaction is useless, as you say, then it brings to mind what our friend mentioned about making the WoL do menial tasks.

Seems a bit like a waste of time while the Telephones finish downloading their ram doubling software.

Why we entertain these clowns instead of making a beeline for Zenos/Fandango is beyond me.

We need MSQ padding fillers I guess.

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Originally Posted by Rhaggnos

If it is indeed true that both we as well as them know this entire interaction is useless, as you say, then it brings to mind what our friend mentioned about making the WoL do menial tasks.

Seems a bit like a waste of time while the Telephones finish downloading their ram doubling software.

Why we entertain these clowns instead of making a beeline for Zenos/Fandango is beyond me.

We need MSQ padding fillers I guess.

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Don't worry, you'll be seeing them soon enough. And they will make you right at home in Garlemald, ohhh yes...

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Technically you did come marching into their homeland at the front of an army.

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ok
and who has military bases all over Eorzea and Doma where they dont belong hmmmmmm needa take a hard think think think bout that one.

Its simple, we could have been mean machines, but we didn’t want them to hurt our little annoying siblings no matter how much we want to hurt our little annoying siblings.
Plus we have this uncontrollable need to save everybody and hurt nobody if possible. So we stand and frown.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Don't worry, you'll be seeing them soon enough. And they will make you right at home in Garlemald, ohhh yes...

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Ishikawa should be fired for inserting her fujobait noncon fic in the game honestly

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Originally Posted by XiRon

ok
and who has military bases all over Eorzea and Doma where they dont belong hmmmmmm needa take a hard think think think bout that one.

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*WoL blows up the area... again*
*give the garleans a reason to double down on crazier plans due to the WoL having ilvl 999 plot armor*
The WoL in it's current state is a walking national destabilizer. Sorry Gabranth, your dreams die with you. Now forge ahead, m8. :^)

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

*WoL blows up the area... again*
*give the garleans a reason to double down on crazier plans due to the WoL having ilvl 999 plot armor*
The WoL in it's current state is a walking national destabilizer. Sorry Gabranth, your dreams die with you. Now forge ahead, m8. :^)

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idk man, sounds like they should have built sturdier walls. I mean, just five years ago they saw a freaking dragon blow up an entire continent. Their biggest fear and the reason why they're expanding (as they assume). And at no point did any engineer think "...we're going to need to dabble in harder materials..."?
Sure, you develop a serum that turns people crazy, you find a way to cheat the Echo onto people, you even find a way to duplicate bodies and make people go insane and believe they're your test subject. But you can't make armor that withstands the one dude in the corner mowing everyone down? For heavens' sake Garleans: YOU. HAVE. GUNS. Hell, you even stole Bozja's idea and have gun swords. AND you have giant kill-sat laser beams. Just shoot the guy in the face and be done with it! Bonus if they're a Viera or a Hrothgar, they can't even cover their faces!

I swear, freaking Garleans suck, WoL true gigachad.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

idk man, sounds like they should have built sturdier walls. I mean, just five years ago they saw a freaking dragon blow up an entire continent. Their biggest fear and the reason why they're expanding (as they assume). And at no point did any engineer think "...we're going to need to dabble in harder materials..."?
Sure, you develop a serum that turns people crazy, you find a way to cheat the Echo onto people, you even find a way to duplicate bodies and make people go insane and believe they're your test subject. But you can't make armor that withstands the one dude in the corner mowing everyone down? For heavens' sake Garleans: YOU. HAVE. GUNS. Hell, you even stole Bozja's idea and have gun swords. AND you have giant kill-sat laser beams. Just shoot the guy in the face and be done with it! Bonus if they're a Viera or a Hrothgar, they can't even cover their faces!

I swear, freaking Garleans suck, WoL true gigachad.

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Funny how that all happened AFTER the mute WoL started killing off their generals one by one. I can get behind a good revenge plot but don't go pretending you are better than your enemy while doing the exact same thing. Also, pretty beta for a "gigachad" to be unable to make their own decisions, lol.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Funny how that all happened AFTER the mute WoL started killing off their generals one by one. I can get behind a good revenge plot but don't go pretending you are better than your enemy while doing the exact same thing. Also, pretty beta for a "gigachad" to be unable to make their own decisions, lol.

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Pretty sure Wol doesnt operate on a One Race philosophy or go around kidnapping people he considers inferior to perform experiments on them so yeah.
I am better than my enemy thank youuuuuu <3

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Funny how that all happened AFTER the mute WoL started killing off their generals one by one. I can get behind a good revenge plot but don't go pretending you are better than your enemy while doing the exact same thing. Also, pretty beta for a "gigachad" to be unable to make their own decisions, lol.

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At least we wear armour, what's their excuse? "Third eye"? Try telling that to an Au Ra.

And I mean...

https://c.tenor.com/upo2LmemAPwAAAAC...selch-emet.gif

Who needs decisions when you're a walking nuke? Decisions are for Ceruleum users, alphas just zerg it.

In retrospect, my biggest gripe about the MSQ this time around is them doing away with pretty much every major lore element since the start of the game in the most unceremonious way possible. Hydalen, Zodiark, Garlemald(and balsar), the ancients/ascians, even revealing the twelve was completely anti-climatic.

I'm not even a lore junkie and they way they went about things bugs me.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

In retrospect, my biggest gripe about the MSQ this time around is them doing away with pretty much every major lore element since the start of the game in the most unceremonious way possible. Hydalen, Zodiark, Garlemald(and balsar), the ancients/ascians, even revealing the twelve was completely anti-climatic.

I'm not even a lore junkie and they way they went about things bugs me.

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I'm still going through it, but at this point it already feels like homework to get to endgame tbh.

Kinda sad considering the end of ShB was quite enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by Rhaggnos

These RPG people are lucky I don't get a say in how the MC behaves, I'd go full Vegeta / Ainz Ooal Gown on their ass.

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Diplomacy

No seriously if every MC would just annihilate every thing that gets in the way with pure force, that would be boring.
While you're given the tools to complete the MSQ, the WoL isn't a boring godlike being that can solve everything with infinite speed and strength.
And it's not a being that wants to rule by force.

Back in Stormblood, anyone correct me if I'm wrong, an interview revealed the WoL had the strength of 100 man.
In short, the WoL is literally closer to Guts than to Vegeta/AOG.

To quote a literal dialogue from the game:
"The conquest is the easy part. The true challenge begins once the dust has settled."

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

Funny how that all happened AFTER the mute WoL started killing off their generals one by one. I can get behind a good revenge plot but don't go pretending you are better than your enemy while doing the exact same thing. Also, pretty beta for a "gigachad" to be unable to make their own decisions, lol.

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And what is it that the WoL does that makes them equal, hmm? I don't remember invading lands and acting righteous after killing natives. Also: that's a logical fallacy, so, just for the amusing factor, try to answer my question without resorting to it again.

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Originally Posted by Anura

And what is it that the WoL does that makes them equal, hmm? I don't remember invading lands and acting righteous after killing natives. Also: that's a logical fallacy, so, just for the amusing factor, try to answer my question without resorting to it again.

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We aren't as clean as we think we are. The one thing that people tend to forget about the Gigas' slave rebellion we put down in the Copperbell mines, the subjugation of the Kolbolds and Sahagin after Limsa broke there treaties, and kinda sorta the Ishgardian heretics.

That's one thing that I'll always wished that we got to experience is how the common Garlean viewed the WoL before the fall of Garlemald. A people that was beat down and pushed back by magic users before in the past having it happen again.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Typical Jojoya, coming into a thread for the first time only to make a personal attack and offer nothing of substance to the debate. Seriously, nothing OP said in any way denotes how he deals with life issues it's a video game.

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How we react to situations presented in entertainment can be influenced by personal experience.

It honestly wasn't an attempt to attack the OP. It was curiosity about whether maybe the OP grew up in an abusive environment where the final say in a dispute was usually a fist or a belt or some other act of violence, or some similar environment where violence was the go to. Those who grow up in such environments frequently use the same methods they were subjected to or witnessed frequently when trying to solve disputes in their own life. They don't need condemnation; they need counseling to help them see that violence is not the answer in a non-violent dispute.

With respect to the story itself, there had been no violence between the Alliance aid mission and the survivors at Tertium so there was no reason to resort to violence while trying to establish the Alliance truly was present to offer aid. Placing the collars around Alphinaud and Alisaie's necks might have been a threat of violence but it was not an act of violence. They didn't not suffer any harm.

Why would knocking the Garleans on their butts be the correct response in that case? All it would accomplish would get those shock collars activated, putting Alphinaud and Alisaie in extreme pain. We already know what those collars are capable of doing from things like the GNB job quests.

A fist would have been very much the wrong response in that situation - unless the WoL didn't give a damn about Alphinaud or Alisaie or the aid mission, of course. So why think it would be a better response to write into the story?

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Originally Posted by Thaciscokidd

We aren't as clean as we think we are. The one thing that people tend to forget about the Gigas' slave rebellion we put down in the Copperbell mines, the subjugation of the Kolbolds and Sahagin after Limsa broke there treaties, and kinda sorta the Ishgardian heretics.

That's one thing that I'll always wished that we got to experience is how the common Garlean viewed the WoL before the fall of Garlemald. A people that was beat down and pushed back by magic users before in the past having it happen again.

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These things are forgotten because they are mostly irrelevant. We, actual humans, have a very, VERY bloody history, so I'll use some examples to give perspective: europeans enslaved a lot of people, but what if those people were actually immortal, gigantic golems. What if they ended up being imprisoned for god knows how long and then released at people TODAY, people that knew nothing about them, since history has been mostly erased or reviewed. Those golems cannot be reasoned with, what would you do? Sic 'em at the descendants of the slavers, people that had nothing to do with it, people who don't even condone slavery anymore? It's not pleasant, but it's how you deal with rabid dogs.

The kobolds have a good reason to be mad as fuck, not so much the sahagin, but OUR specific problems with them comes from them summoning aether starved aberrations and, again, throwing them at people. Luckily the issue seems to be resolved now and that problem CAN be pointed at Merlwyb/Limsa, not so much at us. We've been befriending beast tribes since the beginning. That's why Ramuh trusted us to begin with.

Now, the garleans have no legs to stand on. None whatsoever. They've been invading countless lands, killing natives or treating them like complete trash or second class citizens at BEST, with none but a few exceptions. Every installation we've invaded and destroyed is a result of their campaign and imperialism. In fact, we did not even went after them to simply crush their army, install a puppet government and stop the process. It was, from the beginning, to help, even after all the mess they've done. If you want to see how people deal with enemy countries in a war, look no further than the Battle of Berlin. Many atrocities were committed there, of course, and that's another matter, but dealing with a country to end a war and future invasions is exactly what happens and it's not a war crime, it's called removing the source of the problem.

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Originally Posted by Thaciscokidd

We aren't as clean as we think we are.

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Indeed. We seek out and slaughter sentient beings who are minding their own business because someone at our military organization put them on a hunt list, a long list with dozens of entries that simply command: "Kill N of X." Not capture. Not bring to justice. Kill.
And why do we do it? For currency and promotions.

Whatever, though. It's just a game, and that's just a trope in this kind of game.

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Originally Posted by Anura

These things are forgotten because there are mostly irrelevant. We, actual humans, have a very, VERY bloody history, so I'll use some examples to give perspective: europeans enslaved a lot of people, but what if those people were actually immortal, gigantic golems. What if they ended up being imprisoned for god knows how long and then released at people TODAY, people that knew nothing about them, since history has been mostly erased or reviewed. Those golems cannot be reasoned with, what would you do? Sic 'em at the descendants of the slavers, people that had nothing to do with it, people who don't even condone slavery anymore? It's not pleasant, but it's how you deal with rabid dogs.

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It might be irrelevant to the victors since history is written by them but that doesn't take anything away from the wronged. The gigas' do have intelligence just like any other beast tribe does. We are just ordered to go wipe out there uprising twice without no hint of diplomacy. Just because people might have forgotten about the wrongs that happen to a people doesn't just make that wrong go away. They were enslaved and left entombed due to them rising up against there slave masters. While it might be irrelevant to the WoL and Uldah, its not irrelevant to them.

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The kobolds have a good reason to be mad as fuck, not so much the sahagin, but OUR specific problems with them comes from them summoning aether starved aberrations and, again, throwing them at people. Luckily the issue seems to be resolved now and that problem CAN be pointed at Merlwyb/Limsa, not so much at us. We've been befriending beast tribes since the beginning. That's why Ramuh trusted us to begin with.

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True about the Kolbolds but the Sahagin do have a super valid claim. Limsa started to encroach on there spawning grounds and thats the most important thing to them. While I agree that we did befriend some of them but we didn't befriend them all. Ramuh, like most primals, only cares about there associated tribe. We could have massacred the ixal and Ramuh would have seen that as a net positive.

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Now, the garleans have no legs to stand on. None whatsoever. They've been invading countless lands, killing natives or treating them like complete trash or second rate citizens at BEST, with none but a few exceptions. Every installation we've invaded and destroyed is a result of their campaign and imperialism. In fact, we did not even went after them to simply crush their army, install a puppet government and stop the process. It was, from the beginning, to help, even after all the mess they've done. If you want to see how people deal with enemy countries in a war, look no further than the Battle of Berlin. Many atrocities were committed there, of course, and that's another matter, but dealing with a country to end a war and future invasion is exactly what happens and it's not a war crime, it's called removing the source of the problem.

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But they do have a leg to stand on. They were driven from there homeland by magic users before Emet brought up magitek. Why sit back and let the thing that drove you to near extinction sit idle til they have the chance to do it again. If we go by your standing should we even had helped the Ala Mhigans since they tried to invade Gridania just to expand there territory?

And if you want to go into Real life history it can be interpreted both ways. One sides Manifest Destiny is another side selfish land grab and removal from ancestral lands. One sides unprovoked invasion is the other sides search for suitable habitats for there people to flourish. We never got to experience the other side. One flip of a coin could have had the WoL be a hero of Galemald trying to defend our people from the savage magic users that nearly drove our people to extinction.