Thank you to whoever wrote the Pandaemonium story so far [SPOILERS]

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Originally Posted by Irenia

You know, I don't know why the time travel segment needed to be a closed loop, especially since the side story on the website implies it creates a new timeline, which would have made Endwalker as a whole more interesting and actually allow the past section to not be a foregone conclusion, and add interesting wrinkles to present Hydaelyn and Elidibus in why they would send you to the past and help you go to the past respectively

I imagine it was plotted this way because they wanted to create a strong emotional connection between the ancient peoples and the player. Seeing the general reaction to the story I believe it worked well enough, but it also tests suspension of disbelief so hard with how awkward it makes things.

That said, hopefully the final leg is *not* a foregone conclusion, and is a satisfactory conclusion that isn't just either "and they go back to the past with no memory" or "dead people need to be dead and not mess with the living".

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Endwalker's closed time loop stands in complete contradiction to Shadowbringers. In Shadowbringers, G'raha went back in time and then completely changed what happened, thereby either changing or creating an alternative timeline. In Endwalker, using THE EXACT SAME method of time travel that G'raha used in Shadowbringers, a closed time loop "that had always been fated to happen" happens and sets in motion the things that already happened.

This is one of the things that made me the most furious about Endwalker. We were there. We could have saved them. Yoshi-P says no, because he doesn't like players siding with Emet-Selch and condemning crystal mommy, so he sends her on a rampage to kill everyone and then torture the lifeless husks she created for all eternity because "ancient butterfly killers bad, present murdering warmongering rapists good"

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Originally Posted by not_ya_wify

This is one of the things that made me the most furious about Endwalker. We were there. We could have saved them. Yoshi-P says no, because he doesn't like players siding with Emet-Selch and condemning crystal mommy, so he sends her on a rampage to kill everyone and then torture the lifeless husks she created for all eternity because "ancient butterfly killers bad, present murdering warmongering rapists good"

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Hey, you doing okay there?

Wonder if we will get more of Pandæmonium 9th-12th circle

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Originally Posted by not_ya_wify

Considering Emet-Selch mentioned that Elidibus was basically a child and was looking up to all the older convocation members, as well as him reverting back to child after WoL murders him, I was surprised to see how grown he already was. I expected him to be Unukalhai's age. (Well not age obviously but about that height)

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I don't recall if he's ever mentioned as a child. The various versions for the short story use different words for youth or young adult.

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Originally Posted by not_ya_wify

Endwalker's closed time loop stands in complete contradiction to Shadowbringers. In Shadowbringers, G'raha went back in time and then completely changed what happened, thereby either changing or creating an alternative timeline. In Endwalker, using THE EXACT SAME method of time travel that G'raha used in Shadowbringers, a closed time loop "that had always been fated to happen" happens and sets in motion the things that already happened.

This is one of the things that made me the most furious about Endwalker. We were there. We could have saved them. Yoshi-P says no, because he doesn't like players siding with Emet-Selch and condemning crystal mommy, so he sends her on a rampage to kill everyone and then torture the lifeless husks she created for all eternity because "ancient butterfly killers bad, present murdering warmongering rapists good"

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Couldn't agree more.

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Originally Posted by not_ya_wify

Considering Emet-Selch mentioned that Elidibus was basically a child and was looking up to all the older convocation members, as well as him reverting back to child after WoL murders him, I was surprised to see how grown he already was. I expected him to be Unukalhai's age. (Well not age obviously but about that height)

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Elidibus as member of the Convocation was never a child as far as we know. I honestly do not know why so many people get that impression.

Only the EN version of the short story calls him the vague word "youth". JP, FR and DE are all very clear that he is an adult young man. File this one under the ever-growing "English localisation does things" folder, eh? Emet even says his voice is exactly the same as it was back then, and Elidibus has always sounded like a grown adult.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

In truth, I was a little dissapointed.
I was looking forward to seeing how Lahabrea went mad/evil, but it seems like they're going with "it was his evil twin".
Personally I'm starting to tire a little of complex villains with tragic backstories, so I was hoping for just a straight up evil dood. Perhaps Athena or Golbez will sate my desire on that front.

That said, I did enjoy the story overall and am excisted to see what happens in the next installment.

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Well, we do know how he went mad: someone let the apocalypse happen because she thought the "fairness" of some spiteful misanthropic coward's test was worth upholding instead of doing the sane thing and alerting authorities by literally showing them her memories as it is now confirmed she was perfectly able to do, and then she committed planet-wide genocide on their people and erased their civilisation from history.

Oh, and then he bodyhopped a bit much, I guess. Fandaniel in Thavnair also implies it does a number to their identity, as he says that no matter how many bodies he goes through, he still can't forget who he was.

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Originally Posted by not_ya_wify

Endwalker's closed time loop stands in complete contradiction to Shadowbringers. In Shadowbringers, G'raha went back in time and then completely changed what happened, thereby either changing or creating an alternative timeline. In Endwalker, using THE EXACT SAME method of time travel that G'raha used in Shadowbringers, a closed time loop "that had always been fated to happen" happens and sets in motion the things that already happened.

This is one of the things that made me the most furious about Endwalker. We were there. We could have saved them. Yoshi-P says no, because he doesn't like players siding with Emet-Selch and condemning crystal mommy, so he sends her on a rampage to kill everyone and then torture the lifeless husks she created for all eternity because "ancient butterfly killers bad, present murdering warmongering rapists good"

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It really is a perfect example of Endwalker's hypocrisy and protagonist bias. "Let history be unwritten!" only applies to the good guys. Just like we tell Ascians "the end does not justify the means!" – but for Venat it does. How about the meaning of life being the journey, not the inevitable destination, that makes it worth it? Not when you're an Ancient – then you don't deserve the journey.

I am so glad this tier of Pandaemonium finally loudly said they were just as human as anyone else.

Of course, the Bad Faith Legion has already found ways to spin Lahabrea cutting off the part of his soul corrupted by Athena as "unhealthy repression", and Elidibus commenting on how their culture that has developed around a post-scarcity society of immortal people with immense powers susceptible to be altered by their emotions as "SEE??? THEY WERE COLD AND HAD NO FEELINGS JUST LIKE HERMES, THE ONLY RELATABLE HUMAN, TOLD US". But by now I am quite convinced nothing can be done to help those that do not want to be helped.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

In before the usual culplits enter the topic and try to tell you how it was bad.

That being said I enjoyed it and look forward for the conclusion of Pandaemonium.

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It was always part of the plan to never post this thread into Lore even though it is offering feedback on the story. I have better to do than subjecting myself to the Lore forum.

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Originally Posted by not_ya_wify

This is one of the things that made me the most furious about Endwalker. We were there. We could have saved them. Yoshi-P says no, because he doesn't like players siding with Emet-Selch and condemning crystal mommy, so he sends her on a rampage to kill everyone and then torture the lifeless husks she created for all eternity because "ancient butterfly killers bad, present murdering warmongering rapists good"

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I find this sort of reaction amusing considering the Ascian history of destroying all life on entire shards simply because they didn't consider it life and therefore wasn't murder.

Also curious to hear how you think the WoL could have saved Ancient society all by him/herself. By the time the problem was known, it was beyond the WoL's ability to handle solo and the Ancients couldn't interact with Dynamis.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I find this sort of reaction amusing considering the Ascian history of destroying all life on entire shards simply because they didn't consider it life and therefore wasn't murder.

Also curious to hear how you think the WoL could have saved Ancient society all by him/herself. By the time the problem was known, it was beyond the WoL's ability to handle solo and the Ancients couldn't interact with Dynamis.

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Again with the conflation of the innocent Ancients with the Ascians only three of them eventually became under extreme duress? They were only driven to these acts because of the situation they were put in by Venat. Which she had 100% intended, by the way, as she was literally responsible for the Unsundered's existence to close the time loop, which she knew involved 7 rejoinings by the time we would meet her. Hence, Venat shares culpability for destroying all life on entire shards – along with, of course, outright committing genocide on her own in the first place.

The poster doesn't say anything about the WoL saving Ancient society all by him/herself, because that isn't necessary. Ancients may not have been able to directly interact with Dynamis as they were, but:
1. They could literally create Dynamis-capable creatures as evidenced by Meteion. "BUT ONLY HERMES––" no. We are told Hermes is not the only person who knows about Dynamis ever. The Elpis flower exists and is there for everyone to iterate upon. Give Ancients motivation to research Dynamis, such as… oh, I don't know, ACTUALLY TELLING THEM THE DYNAMIS APOCALYPSE IS COMING!!, and there is no reason why research couldn't have been kickstarted.
2. They can't interact with Dynamis because they're too Aether dense? Then let's consider:
a. diminishing their own Aether as the forcefield within Ktisis Hyperboreia does
b. manually sundering their own Aether like Lahabrea just did – which we now know they viewed as unprecedented and highly risky, but again, when it's to counter the literal end of the world, I'm sure mavericks like Azem would try something like that if it meant saving the planet.
3. They would have had time to do all this, because with Venat telling the Convocation that the solution was reinforcing celestial aether (as we literally told her that – therefore Hermes's sole contribution was unnecessary), they could have come up with a way to do so without being taken by surprise by the Final Days and resorting to the extreme of summoning Zodiark. Given that Zodiark was able to repel Meteion's song for 12,000 years while literally dismembered, broken across 14 dimensions and in a coma, I'm thinking it couldn't have been that hard – because Dynamis is hilariously weak against Aether.

But yes. I know. "Ancients couldn't Dynamis!!!!" is the reason given by the game, straight out of Author Mouthpiece Y'shtola's mouth, confirmed by Hydaelyn. Whose justifications for not telling anyone that mattered of the Final Days in the first place is a pile-up of suppositions about how people would react – and never actual facts. Anyway, not my fault Endwalker's plot is shoddy. There's another, nearly 700 page thread about this.

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Originally Posted by not_ya_wify

Considering Emet-Selch mentioned that Elidibus was basically a child and was looking up to all the older convocation members, as well as him reverting back to child after WoL murders him, I was surprised to see how grown he already was. I expected him to be Unukalhai's age. (Well not age obviously but about that height)

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He was never a child. He's a young man. He's short. He could be a teenager, or someone equivalent to their early 20s.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

He was never a child. He's a young man. He's short. He could be a teenager, or someone equivalent to their early 20s.

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The Japanese use of "seinen" to describe him moreso points to early 20s.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

The Japanese use of "seinen" to describe him moreso points to early 20s.

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JP seems to be a bit more on the nose then. But even in the EN version, they use "youth" at first but then "young man" later, so nowhere even in EN does it say he's a child. Young man can be used to describe a teenager, but really never a child, so that is a place where it seems the EN localization is more vague.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

But yes. I know. "Ancients couldn't Dynamis!!!!" is the reason given by the game, straight out of Author Mouthpiece Y'shtola's mouth, confirmed by Hydaelyn. Whose justifications for not telling anyone that mattered of the Final Days in the first place is a pile-up of suppositions about how people would react – and never actual facts. Anyway, not my fault Endwalker's plot is shoddy. There's another, nearly 700 page thread about this.

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And yet you guys/girls don't seem to be over it yet.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Again, a really good homage to just how underrated and underappreciated the greek god Hephaistos himself is, both in-mythos and by the people who study it. One of the Twelve bloody Olympians. A great god who created impressive and magnificent devices, whom even Zeus feared because at any given time he could unleash the monster powering Mount Etna. But all he's known for is being "the lame fire god who got angy at Aphrodite being a girlboss".

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I LOVED this because you're exactly right. Hephaistos is very underrated and even the butt of the joke in most mainstream depictions. But he is a force to be reckoned with just as any other god. He's always been one of my favorites and to see him done justice made me very happy.

I also enjoy his semi-counterpart in Myths. Though even though that place seems to have Olympian trappings, it feels more Norse. Byregot is very Thor, Azeyma has fire cats so you could easily see Freyja, and Rhalgr has an Odin feel. Not sure how to fit in Nald'Thal. I have suspicions about Oschon which would make it very possible he's the Loki counterpart. And the Norse gods had a different relationship with their worshippers than the Greek gods did. They were more like people to their worshippers, which feels more like how Eorzeans see them.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Not sure how to fit in Nald'Thal.

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Hel, goddess of the underworld and keeper of the inglorious dead, is usually described as fair and beautiful on one half of her body and rotting and corpselike on the other half. The duality motif fits, along with the idea of more glorious deaths taking souls to other realms (Halone's halls, Valhalla).

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

And yet you guys/girls don't seem to be over it yet.

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Of course not. I spent the lifespan of Shadowbringers loving this game and eagerly reading every bit of Ascian and Ancient lore I could get my grubby hands on. I found Endwalker a massive letdown that squeezed two expansions into one and didn't do the arc's long-standing antagonists any sort of justice.

I intend to keep calling that out for as long as I am still subscribed (because I enjoy the gameplay and reward structure that WoW won't give me anymore). Conversely, when they do something that pleasantly surprise me, I'll make it known - both of these is what official forums are for.

Your childish post might have had a point if this story was completely done and over (even then, I still enjoy dunking on GoT 3 years after its end). However, this is an on-going story after all, and YoshiP has made it clear in a recent interview that the ending to Pandaemonium is still being written. Therefore, I fully intend to use that to influence course of things. And if the Omega quest calling out Venat ever so slightly and giving us the choice to rebuke her, and the Pandaemonium story treating Ancients as three-dimensional human beings are any indication, I'd say we are being heard a little at least. ;)

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Originally Posted by Teraq

b. manually sundering their own Aether like Lahabrea just did – which we now know they viewed as unprecedented and highly risky, but again, when it's to counter the literal end of the world, I'm sure mavericks like Azem would try something like that if it meant saving the planet.

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The hemitheos research and the potential of merging with creations, including possibly entelechies, and maybe coupled with other techniques like what you mention (or the Ktisis Hyperboreia suppression field), would've been another possible fruitful avenue to consider. We can't know if it'd have resulted in any successful counters (either way, it's down to the stroke of the writer's pen whether that happens or not), but certainly, it'd be something to put on the table as an option, even if the research would be considered too risky to pursue in other circumstances. Sundering the entire world in excess of what was sufficient for being able to manipulate dynamis directly is highly risky and costly in itself, after all.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Hel, goddess of the underworld and keeper of the inglorious dead, is usually described as fair and beautiful on one half of her body and rotting and corpselike on the other half. The duality motif fits, along with the idea of more glorious deaths taking souls to other realms (Halone's halls, Valhalla).

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True, it's mainly the commerce part that's hard to fit in. But I like that they're similar and not exact copies. I definitely get a very Norse feel from all of them which is rather nice since I always liked Norse mythology a lot more.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

However, this is an on-going story after all, and YoshiP has made it clear in a recent interview that the ending to Pandaemonium is still being written.

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I'm really liking Pandaemonium so far and knowing the ending is still in the works makes me a bit hopeful, would love to read the entire interview. Do you have a link for it please?

When the Pandemonium storyline would make more sense as the potential cause for the Final Days than whatever garbage we had in Elpis.

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Originally Posted by ShinyChariot

When the Pandemonium storyline would make more sense as the potential cause for the Final Days than whatever garbage we had in Elpis.

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I think it would have been better if the effects were immediate. Like, the world had begun collapsing the second we finished the dungeon or something. Instead, it was like "Go on, Metieon. You get, you hear me?! Just come back and destroy us all whenever you feel like it." Sort of killed the urgency of the entire situation prior and left us with more questions than answers afterwards because Venat said nothing to no one. I think their intention was to preserve the timeline our characters came from, which makes sense given an MMO needs a consistent game world. But it was handled pretty poorly on that front. I also have a hard time believing that a rag tag band of adventurers with vastly limited knowledge compared to the Ancients figured out the whole Dynamis thing in 5 minutes when a race of more intelligent beings with creation/destruction magics at their fingertips could not. But yeah, the Pandemonium story has definitely been much better than some aspects of Endwalker.

I appreciate that most people I talk to want tier 3 to have Athena pull an "I LIVED! JUST AS PLANNED!". Somehow. Frankly, does it even matter how? We all agree we just want Athena. Give us more Athena. I want her to swagger her way up to the pantheon of fictional horrible human beings I love.

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Originally Posted by Fiel_Tana

I'm really liking Pandaemonium so far and knowing the ending is still in the works makes me a bit hopeful, would love to read the entire interview. Do you have a link for it please?

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Sorry, I don't post very often. Hopefully you see this. It was a Famitsu interview posted around August 9th. This reddit thread has a digest of the interview, with a link to it in Japanese. Here's a tweet translating the relevant part of it:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FZtWMCZV...jpg&name=large

Looks like my memory is terrible, it's being adjusted rather than still written.

Still though. I hope they can… adjust its ending to give the slightest bit of hope for Ancients. If history must be unwritten…

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I also have a hard time believing that a rag tag band of adventurers with vastly limited knowledge compared to the Ancients figured out the whole Dynamis thing in 5 minutes when a race of more intelligent beings with creation/destruction magics at their fingertips could not.

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Venat: "I cannot say a thing about Hermes, the Convocation needs him to figure out the celestial currents :("
WoL: "…not if you tell them about what Hermes would have figured out. Once they are aware of the problem, surely they could call upon anyone else with expertise in the matter, as we have established you are a civilisation of immortal scholars and academics?"
Venat:
Venat:
Venat: "oh my god look at you you're fading already you gotta go BYE I'LL HANDLE EVERYTHING"

I feel like I have to applaud the writer(s? (I refuse to believe this is the same single person who gave us Shadowbringers)) for making apparently a fair amount of people believe this entire plot can stand on its own two feet.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

We all agree we just want Athena. Give us more Athena.

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Give us what we want SE.

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...917.1654817530

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Give us what we want SE.

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They had better! I really hope she will be back in one way or another for a proper boss fight. On one hand, it would be hard to top Scream as the perfect Evanescence – Fallen (2003) boss theme, but on the other hand, I don't know how I would feel about them reusing a boss theme for such a fight. Last Eden tier had BGM unique to that tier, though most of them were just FFVIII rearrangements, and Omega compensated having only one legit franchise rearrangements by bringing back Primogenitor – good fit though.

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Originally Posted by Moebious

Also, Athena! Incredible, even for how little we got of her, she's so much more interesting than any other female characters introduced in Endwalker.

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I'd missed this shade lmao

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Originally Posted by Moebious

Just wish they had voiced the whole storyline and cutscenes, at the very least after the obvious reveal of their true identities.

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I keep hoping for actual voice acting in cutscenes for the last tier… but I can't remember any voice acting for raid storylines outside of combat. Shame though, because this really deserves it. I understand that the first tier's production budget/manpower was eaten up by the 6.0 MSQ because of how long it was compared to the typical x.0 MSQ, and it kind of shows already with the frankly killer tunes tier 2 gave us, but only having P8 voiced was a letdown, if expected. Agdistis's fight really should have had voice acting. Her voice being all distorted and sounding in pain, while Elidibus and Lahabrea help us in all their voiced glory.

Honestly I hope that for once Final Fantasy XIV will break its pattern for the last tier and feature voice acting outside of the raid fights… but this game isn't very fond of breaking its patterns.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

I tend to find the stories in the Raid series in this game to be pretty, well, mediocre. I didn't like Alexander from the beginning, didn't like Omega until the end, and thought Eden was poorly paced overall and ended with a dull whimper. I don't think they're a good showcase of writing talent, considering that, by nature, they tend to be truncated and any narrative considerations have to take back seat to (typically) fan service and threading four different bosses together per tier. Pandaemonium also had an uphill climb with me because I'm not a huge fan of its aesthetic or premise.

That negativity out of the way, I have to say that I really do think Abyssos is on another level as far as Raid storytelling goes. Yes, I'd love some more connective tissue--or at least hallways so I could get a sense of what Pandaemonium looks like--but it's doing a lot with what it has, through implication and character interaction. I was skeptical that the game could make me as wild about Lahabrea as I am the other Ancients, but it passed with flying colors. I love the characters--including Athena--and I'm dying to find out what happens next. Even if the next tier doesn't manage to stick the landing, I will always appreciate this tier in isolation for how excited it's made me about the game--an excitement I've seen mirrored elsewhere online as well. I want the writer to take what they've done in this tier and take it to the finale. If they do, it'll not only the best Raid tier in the game, but some of the best writing in the game.

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Agreed with mostly everything you've written here. So far, all the raid storylines only grabbed me in their last tier, and only Eden really got me, solely because of its treatment of Mitron not being as flat and one-sided as I had expected. I went into it fully expecting Gaia to reject the mean, terrible, very bad, no-good Ascian who is totally a ToXiC eX bOyFRiEnD (and if I were as disingenuous as some Twitter creatures, I would call Mitron haters racist and possibly transphobic), yet the fact that it ended on Gaia actually sympathising and saying she might have succumbed to the isolation too completely redeemed it. The Aries sympathising with Ascians? Wow… my in-game representation at last.

I wish we actually had a better sense of the locations that serve as raid background rather than them just being hubs. Overall the "world" feel is what I miss the most from WoW.

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Originally Posted by not_ya_wify

Endwalker's closed time loop stands in complete contradiction to Shadowbringers. In Shadowbringers, G'raha went back in time and then completely changed what happened, thereby either changing or creating an alternative timeline. In Endwalker, using THE EXACT SAME method of time travel that G'raha used in Shadowbringers, a closed time loop "that had always been fated to happen" happens and sets in motion the things that already happened.

This is one of the things that made me the most furious about Endwalker. We were there. We could have saved them.

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All we could have done, going from what we know of G'raha's time-rewriting, is to create a second timeline in addition to the one where they have already suffered and died in our history – and to be successful in doing that would risk leaving ourselves stranded in their new timeline, thus leaving our world to suffer and die because we never got back to them with a solution.

The difference doesn't lie in the method of time travel, but in disrupting events while we were there. We can't prevent the sundering because we don't know what we need to change to do that.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

I also have a hard time believing that a rag tag band of adventurers with vastly limited knowledge compared to the Ancients figured out the whole Dynamis thing in 5 minutes when a race of more intelligent beings with creation/destruction magics at their fingertips could not.

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They didn't, though? They had support from the Thavnairian alchemists who had been researching it for some time. Or if you're talking about Ultima Thule, they "figured out by doing", and the ancients presumably wouldn't have the same effect on the dynamis-based enemies in the first place.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Give us what we want SE.

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...917.1654817530

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I'm gonna marry her, screw Lahabrea.

Better yet, screw Lahabrea <3 We'll do it (him) together! ;3

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

I'm gonna marry her, screw Lahabrea.

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So I'm not the only one who likes evil characters and she's a researcher too. Kind of sad she doesn't really stand out that much though in terms of appearance but it makes sense.

Raising this thread from the dead and slapping it together with this random animal I found in my backyard to make a fearsome hemitheos. (don't mind the smell)

The 6.0 MSQ irked me for reasons I've already ranted about in depth (sharing a braincell with Teraq here)... since I got a callback invitation, I thought I'd use my two weeks to peek at the new tier. it pleases me to see that the raid story is a total 180 from that -- a family suffering fallout from a terrible situation all around, the people who have been drawn into its maelstrom, and that judges no one -- and it does give me the tiniest hope that it won't trip and fall over in the last tier. Every character is likeable and unique, and it gives some more insight into my favorite recent fantasy race/culture. Lady mad scientists are also always A+. Not to mention, I feel a bit vindicated for being a 2.0 Lahabrea enjoyer! Truly the hot dad we deserved (both in young and old flavor).

So uhhh... keep it up, raid writing team. Kind of, sort of praying for a break from the almighty time l00p.

(the music and the aiming/scouting armor are also A+)

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

Now the only weirdo Ascian is Nabriales. But i don't think anybody cares about that loser, so no redemption for him.

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I quite enjoyed the greasy perv scorpion man for his brief appearance, it's too bad we didn't even learn about what his seat did. Ditto with Igeyorhm our debate team queen, who apparently was supposed to have more backstory back in HW but it got cut (from what I've heard).

I really like how they are explaining Lahabrea's madness.
It isn't over but you can imagine him using his crystal to get his memories back to use Athena's knowledge.

Now the only weirdo Ascian is Nabriales. But i don't think anybody cares about that loser, so no redemption for him.

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

Raising this thread from the dead and slapping it together with this random animal I found in my backyard to make a fearsome hemitheos. (don't mind the smell)

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https://gifimage.net/wp-content/uplo...cken-gif-7.gif

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

I really like how they are explaining Lahabrea's madness.
It isn't over but you can imagine him using his crystal to get his memories back to use Athena's knowledge.

Now the only weirdo Ascian is Nabriales. But i don't think anybody cares about that loser, so no redemption for him.

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I think you might be forgetting about Mitron there.

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

I really like how they are explaining Lahabrea's madness.
It isn't over but you can imagine him using his crystal to get his memories back to use Athena's knowledge.

Now the only weirdo Ascian is Nabriales. But i don't think anybody cares about that loser, so no redemption for him.

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I don't think this ever is supposed to "redeem" any of the ascians. All I got from these raids is understanding them a little better. But I still wouldn't even call them redeemed.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I don't think this ever is supposed to "redeem" any of the ascians. All I got from these raids is understanding them a little better. But I still wouldn't even call them redeemed.

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Haha, i should have expressed myself better. When i said redemption i wasn't thinking in game redemption, like having their actions justified.

I meant to say that Lahabrea was "redeemed" from his past actions that doesn't fit the current narrative surrounding the Ancients and Ascians.

He and Nabriales were mustaches twirling villains at first, and it felt weird for them being that way when this behavior is so removed from the ancients we met in Amaurot. Nor do it fit the convocations goal.
Especially with Lahabrea who talked like he had his own ambitions beyond Zodiark ressurection.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

I think you might be forgetting about Mitron there.

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Yeah, should have used "cartoon villain" instead of "weirdo".
Despite being a huge creep, we can see that Mitron and Loghrif deeply cared about each others, and he degenerate from being apart from her.
But at least in the end, he wished Gaia well, so he get a pass in my book.

When i think about Nabriales, i can't imagine him as ever being a good guy compared to mitron, since he has no redeemable qualities.

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

Haha, i should have expressed myself better. When i said redemption i wasn't thinking in game redemption, like having their actions justified.

I meant to say that Lahabrea was "redeemed" from his past actions that doesn't fit the current narrative surrounding the Ancients and Ascians.

He and Nabriales were mustaches twirling villains at first, and it felt weird for them being that way when this behavior is so removed from the ancients we met in Amaurot. Nor do it fit the convocations goal.
Especially with Lahabrea who talked like he had his own ambitions beyond Zodiark ressurection.



Yeah, should have used "cartoon villain" instead of "weirdo".
Despite being a huge creep, we can see that Mitron and Loghrif deeply cared about each others, and he degenerate from being apart from her.
But at least in the end, he wished Gaia well, so he get a pass in my book.

When i think about Nabriales, i can't imagine him as ever being a good guy compared to mitron, since he has no redeemable qualities.

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They kinda did the same thing with the WoD group during HW. Just like described with the mustache twirling trope with the Ascians, Ardbert and his group were that much in spades till they threw that sob story that they were only trying to destroy our world to save theirs. Which honestly left a bad taste in my mouth for them as I personally feel thats was such an extreme direction for them to go for when they somehow agreed to work with the people whom caused their world's almost cataclysm? Why even trust Elidibus? At least with them just with the ascians backstory with Elpis, you saw more of them so it helped get a more wider perspective of them.

Still we're talking about the current Pandaemonium story. I definitely enjoy it, and I love seeing this other side of Lahabrea and Elidibus (especially Elidibus) but still not enough to forgive them willingly going around causing chaos and mayhem.

Oh god, the warrior of darkness are so weird to me.
I like them after the role quest, but it's pretty jarring how different they acted back in Heavensward compared to their characterization in Shadowbringers.

They genuinely looked like their enjoyed themselves being absolutely horrible people. Especially the Miqo'te. Felt like different characters.

Right now Pandaemonium is handling this aspect better. Of course it will depend on the ending, but they aren't erasing or ignoring what Lahabrea was (or rather will be, anyway).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RukoBoshi

Oh god, the warrior of darkness are so weird to me.
I like them after the role quest, but it's pretty jarring how different they acted back in Heavensward compared to their characterization in Shadowbringers.

They genuinely looked like their enjoyed themselves being absolutely horrible people. Especially the Miqo'te. Felt like different characters.

Right now Pandaemonium is handling this aspect better. Of course it will depend on the ending, but they aren't erasing or ignoring what Lahabrea was (or rather will be, anyway).

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Yeah, it was pretty funny how they go from making meme 'I am evil' rapefaces (Brandon especially) to suddenly looking sad as they reveal their story. At this point I just chalk it up to them forcing themselves to act like cartoon villains to disassociate from their acts and being really, really bad at acting (hey, kind of like Elidibus...).

Since Eden was brought up, I wasn't terribly fond of that and its hamfisted 'ancients bad, couldn't handle bad things or overcome their fears even though they claim they're perfect, sundered superior' and 'past bad, only the present and future matter' messages that they ran with super hard in there (and especially in Endwalker)... the only consolation was Gaia acknowledging and understanding Mitron's feelings at the very end, even though he had gotten desperate and acted rashly.

I sure hope the last tier of Panda doesn't sour everything the same way.

With Eden, I was just assuming that Mitron had gone a bit insane from a century trapped inside of the first Sin Eater.

The only thing I found wrong with 6.0 was just how obviously lopped sided the handling of the story was when it came to the Final Days and everything revolving around that and the more slice of life and comical parts of the story. Too much focus on the latter, when there should have been more focus on the former. Shadowbringers had this down perfectly.

I also liked the way Pandemonium has been handled so far. Never expected the nut case that was Lahabrea in the present timeline to be previously this kind of person, not to mention him being a family man on top of that. xD

I also hope Athena comes back in some shape or form, too. Its totally possible since obviously Lahabrea completed her work in the end. I don't think the Lahabrea that was killed by King Thordan was the same one we met in Pandemonium either. Possibly a repurposed Hesphestios with altered memories to make him a complete copy of Lahabrea, so the other Ascians wouldn't catch on to what he was up to. I suspect the real Lahabrea is responsible for Pandemonium's reappearance in the present and that he's been continuing all of Athena's unfinished business while preparing to fully revive her in there.