Samurai is dead to me, thanks square (Kaiten 6.2)

Yeah they want broader appeal so they're dumbing everything down. Square isn't listening to your feedback because they didn't design these changes with you in mind. There are thousands of people who are trying SAM for the first time specifically because of these changes that made it easier to play but also strong as hell. It was the same with SMN. It was the same with all the tanks when they gutted those. And it's probably the same with healers too, but nobody ever wants to heal in this game lmao.

Sucks, but yeah. If you enjoy nuance and thinking and a learning curve, play blm. It's the only safe option. I hear yoshi's wife plays ast, and even that job gets gutted with every expansion. Nothing else is safe. If Yoshi ever hangs it up and quits or whatever, then BLMs everywhere will break out into a cold sweat as their enochian trait gets completely removed and their job turns into "uhhh just spam fire4 xD" and people tell them to stop complaining because it's a good thing that their job is only one button because it makes it easier for people who want to play the game but have no fingers.

I agree with Avoidy. This game isn't made for the people who've been playing the longest. This game is now being made to cater to the -super- casual crowd like the people from Second Life. After all, jobs need to very easy so you can get those glams, right? After all, that is the endgame. Shiney trials, shiney raids, shiney alliance raids and shiney dungeons, all that are REALLY easy compared to what we had in A Realm Reborn and Heavensward. But it doesn't stop there. They also need to make them easier, extremely linear and "fix" trials like Titan, Sophia, etc. What a joke.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

Yeah they want broader appeal so they're dumbing everything down. Square isn't listening to your feedback because they didn't design these changes with you in mind. There are thousands of people who are trying SAM for the first time specifically because of these changes that made it easier to play but also strong as hell. It was the same with SMN. It was the same with all the tanks when they gutted those. And it's probably the same with healers too, but nobody ever wants to heal in this game lmao.

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You are correct about the design changes were made without taking the playerbase in mind. They just made them, and we were told to accept them without any explanation for the changes other than a subtle passive comment that they will take the feedback into consideration.

Alienating the most faithful players in favor of the temporary flux of new players is not a good idea in the long term. Gaming publishers and studios have been doing this for years now. They take their faithful players for granted, and use their loyalty against them to keep them lured in only for them to discover that it's just a skin to disguise concepts and ideas that take a giant steaming dump on what made the game good, enjoyable, and popular in the first place; only later to release some kind of "classic" version to appeal to the nostalgic players they stepped on after the locusts have fled. It is indicative of greed, and it's totally effed up.

DPS jobs are designed to put up the numbers. Unlike healers and tanks, their focus should be entirely on killing their enemies as quickly as possible, so it does not make sense to sacrifice core concepts to a job's design in order to appeal to more players. When it comes to a job like SAM, which by end of ShB so many players were already honing their blades in endgame; did they really need to reel in more players to the job? Or would it have been a better design choice to make what is awesome about the job even better?

They did mention button bloat. Ok. So why rob Peter to pay Paul? There are other skills that are still part of SAMs arsenal that would have been more prudent and practical to remove. Was Kenki management a problem? And was it so much of one that it warranted these changes? Is that why? The dev's have not mentioned anything like that. Also doesn't make much sense if the number of SAMs participating in endgame drops off.

I can't make any sense of it. I just know that SAM is not my favorite job right now.

Somehow this reminds me of a metaphor someone made about us loving Spaghetti, it's amazing, we fell in love with it, it's authentic...

Meanwhile SE as the chef...

• Lets remove the Basil and half the Sauce
• Lets remove the sides the Panzanella Salad and the Garlic Bread
• Lets remove the Parmesan Cheese and also not use Olive oil btw
• Perfect! now increase the meat amount by 4x fold
• Lets put that in a blender...

Serves up! Spaghetti à la SE / (meanwhile Community) " See why complain? look at the bland consistent Carbs in each bite yum! "

=__=;; I think of Bland Spaghetti put through a Blender when I play my Samurai... how did I get here...

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

I don't know what you are on, but you contradict yourself in a single sentence.
"I like the sticker system into the big Iaijutsu. That core is still there, even with Kaiten gone."
No, the big hits are gone, goners, disapeared. A White mage can hit harder, a Ninja can hit 3 TIMES more in a single hit. Stop lying to yourself.

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It ain't always about the numbers. The only number that really means anything to me is my final DPS, which shows how well I did overall. But it still has the gameplay loop of build up your stickers and finishing it off with two big Midare (which are still bigger than any of our other abilities). The gameplay loop hasn't changed that much, which is what I enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

It ain't always about the numbers. The only number that really means anything to me is my final DPS, which shows how well I did overall. But it still has the gameplay loop of build up your stickers and finishing it off with two big Midare (which are still bigger than any of our other abilities). The gameplay loop hasn't changed that much, which is what I enjoy.

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There are no "big midare" anymore. And you contradict yourself again.
In a single sentence you say you like the final DPS, but then go on about the "big hits".

If your big hit is not even half of a Whm or a Ninja's, how is it a bit hit ? How do you actively build anything to get it ? It's weak, it's not a "finisher" anymore.

I must say I used to enjoy SAM before No-Kaiten era.

I personally feel empty without this skill, all my rotations were around it and now I feel masterless, I feel like a Ronin, which is what my macro for Job Switch to SAM is now called, a Ronin.
to me Kaiten was an integral part of my damage dealing and the personality of the SAMURAI job, focusing to deal more damage. That was the deal.
Have to also say the animation of Kaiten is indeed Iconic. I felt like I was preparing myself to deal a massive blow to my enemy. Now that I got my Ronin to level 90, I feel like playing this JOB is unenjoyable, unfun, Masterless.
I was never maining Samurai but playing it was always fun for me, making sure to get the right materia for my gear to deal BIG NUMBERS, and it felt right in place.
I never imagined how much I missed that one skill during the 10 levels of my Ronin. Now it almost feels like the era of Shogunate when they were replacing Samurai Blades with Muskets, and removing Samurai from the street.
To me it feels like we are being pushed away from mainstream to make room for something else, that something being a Reaper, the new main DPS, being able to compete with Ninja in LB3.

As much as I enjoy Reaper, it is unfair to damage one Job to make room for another. Monk has been damaged for a long time and feels like the developers don't really know where to go with this, so for me even gearing up is of no consequence, I don't need Striker gear because I will do with Monk the same as with Ronin, Monk never felt the same since Heavensward. Now I am neglecting 2 Jobs of the same category, no big loss there, but it's a shame to lose 2 potentially powerful DPS Jobs because of decisions made by misunderstanding what's good for them.

I don't really care if someone reads this farewell to this job, or not. We know our feedback is of no consequence, the only feedback that matters is from JPN playerside and they seem to be content with this change.
I had some really good Glamours for this too, replacing them for other stuff will hit the coffin nails hard and toss it into a ditch, where all Ronins end up.

Forget Samurai Job, welcome a Masterless Ronin, one no one wants to employ.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Somehow this reminds me of a metaphor someone made about us loving Spaghetti, it's amazing, we fell in love with it, it's authentic...

Meanwhile SE as the chef...

• Lets remove the Basil and half the Sauce
• Lets remove the sides the Panzanella Salad and the Garlic Bread
• Lets remove the Parmesan Cheese and also not use Olive oil btw
• Perfect! now increase the meat amount by 4x fold
• Lets put that in a blender...

Serves up! Spaghetti à la SE / (meanwhile Community) " See why complain? look at the bland consistent Carbs in each bite yum! "

=__=;; I think of Bland Spaghetti put through a Blender when I play my Samurai... how did I get here...

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Like when you go to a restaurant and order a burger but ask to hold everything except the bun.

Honestly was trying the sam changes after 6.2 but now i'm moving on to RPR or DRG, can't play SAM anymore it's just bland.

crybabies need to stop about Sam and move on to another job till it is fixed their are 17 to choose from.

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Originally Posted by Eriyami

Like when you go to a restaurant and order a burger but ask to hold everything except the bun.

Honestly was trying the sam changes after 6.2 but now i'm moving on to RPR or DRG, can't play SAM anymore it's just bland.

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I eventually need to level my MNK its been put on the side for quite some time, but can't prog new Savage with Lv1 anything. My fault for having passion for a Job I came to like :/

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Originally Posted by george357

crybabies need to stop...

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Okey wait... For legal reasons... Truly...
I need to check your history for hell of it lets see what you been up to...
Here goes! Hokay! (*cracks knuckles*) ouch...

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Originally Posted by george357

well you can keep crying about this and hope one day they hear you and remove it but don't hold your breath waiting

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Good feedback I guess? on the Positionals... okey...

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Originally Posted by george357

if this were feedback yes butt sence its a bunch of winers who can't let go no

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Samurai feedback I guess as well? very constructive...

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Originally Posted by george357

if you mad about this job pick another one till they fix this one and stop crying about it and move on.

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Same topic... huh I am noticing a pattern wait give me a second...

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Originally Posted by george357

don't hold your breath waiting for something happen its not going to.

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Something about the report system not working. All your arguments are very 1 liner the same o.o;

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Originally Posted by george357

if you don't like normal do hard and leave the first alone for the normal players it keeps us busy

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Oofers! idk if this is telling of something.

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Originally Posted by george357

if you don't like the current job pick another till the job is corrected you have 17 to choose from crying about it for over 61 padges does not work the programmers will get this done in their time not yours.

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Here's another one pretty much the same thing okey...

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Originally Posted by george357

poor sorry players not takin g care of their houses well you snoose you lose learn from your mistakes.

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Bashing House owners okey dokey, very " constructive " one liner.

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Originally Posted by george357

system needs to be maintained crying about does not help.

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Uh-huh... very informative..



*Summary*
Your main stig has been basically...

• Complaining about any feedback players post
• On any topic regardless of it's valuable points
• And bash it with a one liner
• Essentially Complaining about everyone Complaining

This goes on for pages in your history this is... this is something. Unironically you're the definition of crying since it's empty of any substance. And I thought my posts were colored repetitively bland, but this is like an extra special bland of "Grey", and I am not even talking about logs...

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

There are no "big midare" anymore. And you contradict yourself again.
In a single sentence you say you like the final DPS, but then go on about the "big hits".

If your big hit is not even half of a Whm or a Ninja's, how is it a bit hit ? How do you actively build anything to get it ? It's weak, it's not a "finisher" anymore.

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I swear you're being purposefully obtuse.

Midare is still one of our biggest hitting abilities, especially with the crit changes. None of my other abilities are hitting 25-30k damage regularly. I don't care what a WHM or Ninja can do once every minute. I get like 4 Midare every minute that still feel good to use, especially with tsubame. I get the screen shaking Namikiri's every two minutes. I'll take that feel over throwing some ice shurikens any day, numbers be damned.

hmm now Midare hits like 23k to 26k+?
with Kaiten it was around 30k^^

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I swear you're being purposefully obtuse.

Midare is still one of our biggest hitting abilities, especially with the crit changes. None of my other abilities are hitting 25-30k damage regularly. I don't care what a WHM or Ninja can do once every minute. I get like 4 Midare every minute that still feel good to use, especially with tsubame. I get the screen shaking Namikiri's every two minutes. I'll take that feel over throwing some ice shurikens any day, numbers be damned.

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I'm not obtuse, you're just clueless.
A raiton has more potency than Midare. And it's followed by a Raiju with just a bit less potency. Add the 15% damage down on the target every minute on it and you already widen the gap even more.
The big finishers are in your head only.

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

hmm now Midare hits like 23k to 26k+?
with Kaiten it was around 30k^^

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It was way more than that. A normal hit without crit was around 25k indeed, but with direct crit you could go above 50k. More in line to what Ninja is currently.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I swear you're being purposefully obtuse

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No. We're not being Doltish. Many of us base it off of...

• The Balance Discord, FFLogs, Number comparisons
• In-game testing before 6.08 and after 6.1
• Being BiS to access maximum damage

Atm I sit on 614 ilvl, crafted PEN Materia with Savage accesories and EX4 Weapon. Not BiS but being BiS week 1 is not realistic. So Current 6.2 with Dancer DP/Raidbuffs and Pot window I maybe can hit

• 50k Midare: Setsugekka and 60k Ogi Namikiri

Versus 6.08 BiS Kaiten Era with Dancer DP/Raidbuffs and Pot window

• 60k/70k+ Midare: Setsugekka and 70k/100k+ Ogi Namikiri

Seeing is believing, here's footage of " Ty Ci's during 6.08 " as 1 of many reference points. Comparing 6.08 BiS vs none 6.2 BiS isn't fair but that's not the point. The comparison is about the Crit-spikes forever lost due to Auto-Crit implementation. Where Ty Ci in that video goes " Ohh! 100k!! ", those moments are gone now.

Don't take our " obtuse " take for it, hear it from Yoshi-P himself who admits in a live-letter before 6.2 stating Big Crit's and Hits is the appeal of Samurai. And acknowledges there can be a backlash by changing this. Aka the Auto-Crit implementation, and he was right, there is.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

It ain't always about the numbers. The only number that really means anything to me is my final DPS

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Crit Striking the same always? Feels like Crit striking never. Bland, Boring, Flavorless and no excitement. Every Oomph and thought behind the big hits are gone as well without Kaiten. No amount of bigger number performance is going to make up for lost gameplay. Their Future changes that never arrived is not going to make up for it either, and that's a long wait. Crayon collecting and reduced DPS fluctuations another hobby and take if you care about " Final DPS ". Then again... Many value FFXIV's in-game gameplay a lot higher then subpar blue colored dopamine hits from reading aftermath graph performances of some darn logs on some stupid webpage...


Top performing Job now or not, 6.2 SAM feels hollow compared to 6.08 SAM

PS: For Live Letter sources, go to https://discord.com/invite/ffxiv at the translations channel.

If only we could get everyone else on board with the "Samurai-is-dead-to-me train, then perhaps people would stop talking about it.

I'm ever the optimist.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

If only we could get everyone else on board with the "Samurai-is-dead-to-me train, then perhaps people would stop talking about it.

I'm ever the optimist.

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If only we could all be as passionless about " anything ", perhaps we could make a games PvE combat as mind-numbingly thoughtless and soulless as say FFXIV's fishing.

I'm ever the realistic pessimist.

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

If only we could all be as passionless about " anything ", perhaps we could make a games PvE combat as mind-numbingly thoughtless and soulless as say FFXIV's fishing.

I'm ever the realistic pessimist.

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You know it's just fishing. Same way Kaiten is just a skill, so if there's something you really want to say, then just actually say it.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

You know it's just fishing. Same way Kaiten is just a skill, so if there's something you really want to say, then just actually say it.

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to be honest I think we're essentially talking about this since April.. hell I was lucky that I did a Video showcasing Raw Footage of me doing stuff with Kaiten before they gutted Samurai.
but for me, I only have one thing to say: Bring Back Kaiten

though I really wonder if some other Game Dev notices this? I mean developing an tabtarget-RPG with a slightly modified version of the 6.08 Samurai Playstyle doesn't sound that impossible to me.

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

You know it's just fishing. Same way Kaiten is just a skill, so if there's something you really want to say, then just actually say it.

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Could ask the same thing to a general discussion poster making the occasional pitstop at the DPS subsection with an empty contributing post in a snarky manner, questioning why you're met with the same empty substance you started off with. Amusing?

" Asking me to say what I really want to say ", is assuming like I ever had a filter. You must be new here, which is ironic of me to say when we compare our forum join dates. I guess summed up... " Click Here, the Samurai compiled threads ", pretty much everything I stand for and support. Realize that I have been on board the " SE ignores player Feedback " train regarding PvE combat Jobs. Of which then if you gone through all of it...

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Originally Posted by Neoyoshi

If only we could get everyone else on board with the "Samurai-is-dead-to-me train, then perhaps people would stop talking about it.
I'm ever the optimist.

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...you can tell me what you really want to say other then being another generic " Complainer, posting complaints of others Feedback to stop Complaining ", just rephrased differently. Even if responding to me does the opposite of what you want which would be for people to stop talking about this... mehh, your call. So! Wanna bump this again :3 ?

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Originally Posted by george357

crybabies need to stop about Sam and move on to another job till it is fixed their are 17 to choose from.

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I did. I took up DNC and I enjoy it very much. However, the problems with SAM are still there. So I really don't understand your point.

I also still play SAM. At the very least it helps me give a perspective from the experience playing the job.

If anything, the biggest issue with Kaiten is that it was too easy to use and harder to lose because the combos pretty much guaranteed a usage. Someone compared it to Life Surge but Life Surge at least has a cooldown timer so you weren't constantly using it.

If anything they should move Shoha to Kenki - have it cost like 50 - and moved Kaiten to meditation while making, say, Yukikaze and Mangetsu the way to gain a Meditation stack.

Kaiten's frequency of use was just a symptom of rapid fire Midares. We got increased skill speed causing faster Sen gain in 5.0, then an extra Meikyo stack as well as Ogi Namikiri as a new target for Kaiten in 6.0. Tsubame Gaeshi's existence also prevents Iaijutsu from having higher base potency. SAM's development history shows they wanted us to cast Iaijutsu more often when IMO they should have focused on making them more impactful, now we've reached the point where Midare's potency pales in comparison to its ability to cause tinnitus.

well though that was the Beauty of Samurai, if you played Samurai correctly you felt like a Boosted Midare Setsugekka Spamurai.
Now you just play a literal Shinten Spamurai ._.

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Originally Posted by Writer

If anything, the biggest issue with Kaiten is...

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Nothing.
Just to sum up, the compilation of the arguments I heard and read...


To Difficult?
Kaiten's inception, was not met with an angry mob screaming how unplayable Samurai is. Statistically, SAM was capable of clearing any content with Kaiten.

APM
The actions per minute argument is also flawed. Kaiten removal reduced our APM by 1 OGCD every minute, solving APM reduction by practically nothing.

Button Bloat
Plenty of buttons could have been merged/removed/fused/proc-action-change up to 5 basically before we even touch Kaiten to maintain the same gameplay of Samurai without removing Kaiten.

To Easy?
Misexecution of Kaiten even at the very top, though very rare, was not uncommon. xivanalaysis even showcases that in the logs. If Kaiten was easy, wait till you hear about Shinten spam. It being easy? showcases mastery of it, vs those who find it difficult.

A button we press every-time
Using this phrase to justify Kaiten removal, means we can remove any button we press anytime. Which factually is "any button" since we press them all " every time ", even if it has a cooldown. And again we don't give Shinten the same scrutiny.

Gameplay of Sam is the same without Kaiten
No. It's made hollow by Kaiten removal, and our Kenki management Hollow. In fact it was a unique job that utilizes the gauge in such a manner. That unique gameplay is deleted now. Gone.

Impossible to balance for the Dev's
If they have figured out how to not give every player a house and somehow an entire private island for every player, I'm pretty sure puzzling out damage numbers without removing Kaiten isn't going to be impossible. They can literally juggle potencies around to have that work.


Most of what Kaiten meant? is a satisfying feeling of charging up your next attack thoughtfully and your sword hits being impactful. With it's removal, it's turned into thoughtless Shinten spamming stabs and its just not as satisfying visually with the flaccid numbers our heavy hits used to have, nor how Samurai feels to play to many Sam mains regarding its rotation.

Kaiten was also something many practiced, be it for becoming better or the fantasy of practicing making you better at it - that was ripped away to Fix nothing. Then why have SE give us tools to play with, for us to master its usage, only for it to be taken away?

Kaiten was never the problem. It's made to seem it was a problem, and its removal made to look as necessary, when it in-fact it's removal fixed absolutely nothing. We perform as Samurai though, don't get me wrong. A game is to have fun, and Samurai all be it I have fun and it works? it performs? I have a lot less fun with it then I used to with Kaiten.

That is what many find is the problem, " it just used to be more fun ".