Reaper needs additional buffs.

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Originally Posted by MaaryZeleste

You're pretty bad at the game if you think there are any jobs that aren't braindead tbh.

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These humble brag takes are getting so old. Yes yes, youre the 1% top performer of the game, we get it.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Really don't understand why people are so against reaper being more on par with other melee. It was touted by Yoshi P in the live letter pre release to be a more selfish DPS like a samurai. I expect it to be below a samurai since it has a small raid buff. It should not be so far below like it is now when it offers worse raid buffs than the melee above it. Arcane crest's utility is laughable, if any raidwide aoe requires any sort of healing a single ogcd heal from any healer will cover it. You will not be substituting any heals for an arcane crest. It's useful for personal mitigation and other jobs have these too without being taxed so hard.

As for difficulty, barely any jobs require much thought at this point so how is it a factor at all? I found the monk rotation easy, samurai is straight forward and so is dragoon.

I don't want to feel like I am playing the cucked melee purely because they buffed the rest above it and failed to compensate for it in 6.2
A bit more agility in terms of job balance from devs would be nice, it's not nice to wait 4 months for any balancing.

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My assumption is its due to Reaper having much less things to press and track/ align. I personally couldnt care less if Reaper did top dps or not, i play jobs i enjoy and not for 5% more dps on some chart.

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Originally Posted by Quyn

These humble brag takes are getting so old. Yes yes, youre the 1% top performer of the game, we get it.

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They're not necessarily wrong though. Every job has a large muscle memory component to it due to the rotational nature of XIV's gameplay, so you get to the point that for casual play every job in XIV is, in fact, rather simple.

Of course, I hold that every job gets significantly more difficult in minor ways as you move to optimizing it. Even jobs considered brain dead by the community, and there's a lot of bias around the topic from confirmation bias to pure favoritism of course.

But for the 95% of the player base in this game who don't speed or parse run, yes all jobs are pretty simple.

I think RPR should be way better than what it is currently. It was advertised as a selfish dps with a weaker raid buff with a selfish gain via plentiful harvest

I personally don't think complexity=significantly higher dps. for example, I like how Black Mage has non-standard rotations or other things you can do differently to squeeze out more damage at the high-end, but having RPR unbalanced at all levels relative to the melee is unfair

I would probably want the power levels regarding personal dps being something like SAM>RPR>MNK/NIN>DRG. I'd put NIN with DRG if they weren't shifted into a more personal dps job with the changes to mug, and trick being a 1 minute personal buff

I'm not quite sure how they handle the power budget of a job, just a personal opinion

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Really don't understand why people are so against reaper being more on par with other melee.

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A lot of the angst aimed at RPR comes from the fact that it's simply the new job on the block and there's just naturally a lot of jealousy around its toys. Even when the job wasn't even fully released yet, in the first few threads, you had a bunch of players just really happy and excited to play the job. And then out of the blue people would pop in and say 'Yeah, but its rotation is mindlessly easy,' or start complaining that the job needed nerfs. That continued well into launch. Even still, most people who are offering commentary about RPR's gameplay have no idea about how the optimizations work on it and are just parroting out comments that they've heard others say previously. Sure, freestyle RPR is pretty simple (as is freestyle SAM and MNK, for that matter) if you just mash buttons as they light up. But that's very suboptimal, and we thankfully have some interesting resource and buff management once you get deeper into it.

The damage discrepancy is more about player numbers than anything else. You can't argue that it's because of raid dps buffs because the associated benefit is integrated already in to the rdps calculation. If you're doing higher damage despite not bringing raid dps buffs, that's because you do more damage directly than those buffs are worth. Likewise, it's not on the basis of utility. Arcane Crest's healing component was massively nerfed because players on other jobs complained about it. So you can't even make that claim now. No, the real reason was because it was tough to jump into PF at launch with how saturated the job was with them. And that just comes down to the fact that the job feels fantastic to play in terms of animations and pure mobility.

Either way, I don't mind too much as long as there's a decent amount of overlap. It ensures that players choose the job for the right reasons. What's more important is that we actually have an active discussion going on the job entering into 7.x, so that the design remains in a good place. It's unfortunate that this subforum is shared by so many jobs, because most of the interesting discussions get quickly scrolled off before they get any traction.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Really don't understand why people are so against reaper being more on par with other melee. It was touted by Yoshi P in the live letter pre release to be a more selfish DPS like a samurai. I expect it to be below a samurai since it has a small raid buff. It should not be so far below like it is now when it offers worse raid buffs than the melee above it. Arcane crest's utility is laughable, if any raidwide aoe requires any sort of healing a single ogcd heal from any healer will cover it. You will not be substituting any heals for an arcane crest. It's useful for personal mitigation and other jobs have these too without being taxed so hard.

As for difficulty, barely any jobs require much thought at this point so how is it a factor at all? I found the monk rotation easy, samurai is straight forward and so is dragoon.

I don't want to feel like I am playing the cucked melee purely because they buffed the rest above it and failed to compensate for it in 6.2
A bit more agility in terms of job balance from devs would be nice, it's not nice to wait 4 months for any balancing.

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cucked melee?
that's an odd way to speak about the melee job with superior mobility, superior utility, superior combo 1-2-3 potency, superior defensive, superior positionals? no positionals, superior range attacks linked to their mobility, all for less than a 2% dps difference between top, which was also absurdly broken on expansion release and it's 1st savage release, doesn't sound very "cucked" to me

That's not really correct, though. Many jobs have unique mobility upsides, be it in the form of multiple gap closers or even a passive speed buff. RPR's just happens to be a skillshot and rewards intelligent portal planning. Likewise, the solitary 'utility' effect isn't anything to write home about after people demanded Arcane Crest nerfs. It might as well just be a personal shield at this point much like Third Eye/Riddle of Earth. And every melee job has something that it can do while at range, so they're all just variations on a theme.

I think that if more people just were able to enjoy their own preferred job instead of trying to drag down other players' enjoyment of theirs, we'd all be able to have a good time.

Nobody is trying to drag them down right now, we think they are in a good spot right now. (those 6.2 buffs were needed, but no more than that)

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

Nobody is trying to drag them down right now, we think they are in a good spot right now. (those 6.2 buffs were needed, but no more than that)

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You think they are in a good spot. We gonna wait for the current savage tiers to be finished to have more data, but there's definitely more adjustments to perform to some jobs.

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Originally Posted by Keiisuke

You think they are in a good spot. We gonna wait for the current savage tiers to be finished to have more data, but there's definitely more adjustments to perform to some jobs.

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SE and ME apparently

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

SE and ME apparently

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To be fair square enix couldn’t balance their way out of a wet paper bag even with every class being functionally the same so invoking them isn’t saying much

RPR used to be the undisputed #1 melee job.

They then proceeded to buff literally every other melee job past it because Arcane Crest utility is a lot better than DPS log junkies want to admit.

They buffed RPR when it became apparent it was falling behind the rest of the melee (scaling issues maybe?), but they seem to be fine with RPR's current DPS standing. Buffing RPR again at this point means that they also have to buff all the ranged jobs again and create powercreep issues.

By buffing the other jobs they basically still nerfed Reaper. I mean you can phrase it however you want but Reaper was nerfed. It's damage is the same but the other specs do more damage prior to EW launch.

It's just they went a ridiculous way about it.

A lot of their job changes this expansion has been a bit ass backwards if you ask me. For every one good change you got 4 bad ones.

And this isn't just restricted to Reaper.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

They're not necessarily wrong though. Every job has a large muscle memory component to it due to the rotational nature of XIV's gameplay, so you get to the point that for casual play every job in XIV is, in fact, rather simple.

Of course, I hold that every job gets significantly more difficult in minor ways as you move to optimizing it. Even jobs considered brain dead by the community, and there's a lot of bias around the topic from confirmation bias to pure favoritism of course.

But for the 95% of the player base in this game who don't speed or parse run, yes all jobs are pretty simple.

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Yes sure if we are talking about content below savage, everything is almost trivial.
But honestly, if we are talking about absolute job difficulty, shouldn't it be in the context of content that actually challenges the player ?
Job complexity/ difficulty is designed around savage and higher after all. There would be little point in a class thats so difficult, it suffers when also having to handle savage mechanics.


Besides that, the poster in question obviously plays High End content and spends much time parsing.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

As I said before I think Reaper overall is fine. They should probably either remove positionals on Reaper or make it so hitting the positionals on Reaper gives you double the Shroud gauge for caring enough. And hitting positionals in Enshroud replenishes Lemure shroud stacks to extend your burst phase. Or each positional beefs up your Communio. .

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I think its scary that someone is making comments on how to balance a job who doesn't even know Enshroud doesn't have positionals.

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Originally Posted by Sneaks21

I think its scary that someone is making comments on how to balance a job who doesn't even know Enshroud doesn't have positionals.

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I think it's scary the devs designed a job to have positionals and then removes them during Enshroud so why bother making positionals in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Atmaweapon510

RPR used to be the undisputed #1 melee job.

They then proceeded to buff literally every other melee job past it because Arcane Crest utility is a lot better than DPS log junkies want to admit.

They buffed RPR when it became apparent it was falling behind the rest of the melee (scaling issues maybe?), but they seem to be fine with RPR's current DPS standing. Buffing RPR again at this point means that they also have to buff all the ranged jobs again and create powercreep issues.

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I'm pretty sure the buffs to RPR's 123 combo was purely a result of the Crit changes inherently buffing every other melee class. Reaper and Ninja are the only two melee classes that don't have an auto crit ability, and so they are the two that don't get buffed with the new change. Ninja was already doing super well, so it didn't need to have any buffs, but if they didn't give that slight buff to RPR, the class would have been much more noticeably behind the rest.

As for the utility of arcane crest, I believe it is severely overblown, especially after it got nerfed in potency. There has never been a time where I found the healing from the crest was actually necessary, since it almost always occurs following raidwides, where the healers are healing already.

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Originally Posted by Serpent1ng

I'm pretty sure the buffs to RPR's 123 combo was purely a result of the Crit changes inherently buffing every other melee class. Reaper and Ninja are the only two melee classes that don't have an auto crit ability, and so they are the two that don't get buffed with the new change. Ninja was already doing super well, so it didn't need to have any buffs, but if they didn't give that slight buff to RPR, the class would have been much more noticeably behind the rest.

As for the utility of arcane crest, I believe it is severely overblown, especially after it got nerfed in potency. There has never been a time where I found the healing from the crest was actually necessary, since it almost always occurs following raidwides, where the healers are healing already.

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Regen effects on dps anyway aren't that strong compared to mitigation spells, because yes healers can already heal a entire team in 2s, so for me regen on dps is not so effective that it is, the real use of arcane crest is more for personal survival with the shield,
the spell would be much more useful if it was an area shield, but people tend to overestimate healing effects on dps, the summoner also has a regen even if he doesn't choose it which overheals 99% of the time, the reaper's regen is more useful since it triggers after damage taken,
but honestly I don't think regen effects on dps job are reason enough to have such dps differences with others melee, and healers shouldn't rely on a dps job to heal, they are already green dps,
aid to healers should be more in the form of mitigation, it's a fact mitigation are really stronger than everything else.

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Originally Posted by Quyn

Yes sure if we are talking about content below savage, everything is almost trivial.
But honestly, if we are talking about absolute job difficulty, shouldn't it be in the context of content that actually challenges the player ?
Job complexity/ difficulty is designed around savage and higher after all. There would be little point in a class thats so difficult, it suffers when also having to handle savage mechanics.


Besides that, the poster in question obviously plays High End content and spends much time parsing.

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I've read through both of our posts multiple times now and maybe it's just me being tired, but did anything you say disagree at all with my post? I'm confident my thesis was "jobs are easy in easy content and difficult in truly optimized content" and that seems to be exactly what you repeated back to me.

I even had a bit where I stated that there's an element of bias to determining a job's difficulty, though I guess I never expanded there. That bias can come from many forms; hearsay ("Ive heard x job is easy from people i trust ergo its easy"), natural talent ("the job just clicks for me"), and agenda pushing ("x job that I main is difficult therefore it should do more damage") are the biggest biases I see on a regular basis. Enough exist that getting impartial reads is difficult, hence why feedback should come from multiple sources.

I'm not sure what the background of the guy you quoted matters, either.

RPR never was the highest job in terms of rDPS. SAM was top at launch, with BLM in second place. Even still, there were a sizable number of SAM players who complained about not having enough of a rDPS advantage over RPR to justify the difference in 'complexity' or 'utility'. Square responded by nerfing our singular utility action and by nerfing SAM and a few other jobs' "complexity". Again, the comparisons between SAM players and 4.x WAR players are most apt. It's one reason why you should never let a single job sit at the top for too long.

And yet we still see such individuals coming in here trying to drag us down. Misery truly loves company.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

I've read through both of our posts multiple times now and maybe it's just me being tired, but did anything you say disagree at all with my post? I'm confident my thesis was "jobs are easy in easy content and difficult in truly optimized content" and that seems to be exactly what you repeated back to me.

I even had a bit where I stated that there's an element of bias to determining a job's difficulty, though I guess I never expanded there. That bias can come from many forms; hearsay ("Ive heard x job is easy from people i trust ergo its easy"), natural talent ("the job just clicks for me"), and agenda pushing ("x job that I main is difficult therefore it should do more damage") are the biggest biases I see on a regular basis. Enough exist that getting impartial reads is difficult, hence why feedback should come from multiple sources.

I'm not sure what the background of the guy you quoted matters, either.

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There really is no point of disagreement, hence the first word of my reply being yes ^^

I was merely reinforcing my distaste for when people call jobs easy, yet they never take them to savage.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

RPR never was the highest job in terms of rDPS. SAM was top at launch, with BLM in second place. Even still, there were a sizable number of SAM players who complained about not having enough of a rDPS advantage over RPR to justify the difference in 'complexity' or 'utility'. Square responded by nerfing our singular utility action and by nerfing SAM and a few other jobs' "complexity". Again, the comparisons between SAM players and 4.x WAR players are most apt. It's one reason why you should never let a single job sit at the top for too long.

And yet we still see such individuals coming in here trying to drag us down. Misery truly loves company.

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RPR/MNK were clearly the best melee until 6.08 or whenever all melee except RPR were buffed

Personally as a SAM player at the time, I didn't care much because I was still learning the new rotation but it was a little annoying since RPR had a raid buff and outperformed SAM even in aDPS if I recall correctly

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

cucked melee?
that's an odd way to speak about the melee job with superior mobility, superior utility, superior combo 1-2-3 potency, superior defensive, superior positionals? no positionals, superior range attacks linked to their mobility, all for less than a 2% dps difference between top, which was also absurdly broken on expansion release and it's 1st savage release, doesn't sound very "cucked" to me

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Every melee has options for moving around, each have their own pro/con, and who honestly cares about a 1-2-3 potency? Other melee also have their own personal mits such as third eye, riddle of earth, shade shift. Superior ranged atk? Our ranged atk requires the movement ability be used else it is a cast unlike other jobs instant use ability, harvest moon you get one use out of unless there is prolonged downtime.

Frankly you sound salty. Every melee has options, mnk being the exception with no ranged atk. And under no circumstance will you EVER be using arcane crest's heal instead of a healer's ogcd heal. The healing it gives is a meme and very very rarely does it feel impactful. It's a 10% mit that also happens to have a heal attached similar to summon's pheonix having a heal that they don't give a crap about. If I could cherry pick I would take a ninja point and click mobility over rpr's set distance leap, to ME ninja's mobility is superior as you have more choice with it as well as 2x charges. As a healer I would rather have a monk mantra to help me than a reaper's arcane crest. And people love a dragoon for it's crit buff alone. Does not seem to me like the other melee are lacking vs rpr.

It's balance on release is irrelevant, they buffed everything above it. It shouldn't have been top, it should not be buffed to be the top. No reaper I know is asking to be the top dps. We are asking to not be so far behind in dps when our job is supposed to be selfish similar to a samurai as Yoshi P said in the live letter pre release. That is what they intended and it is NOT what we have currently. RPR should be a bit below a samurai not dead last trailing a job that gives superior raid buffs.

Also just because YOU think it's in a good spot does not mean SE agrees, they just buffed it so it clearly wasn't good enough and now it's on live servers and they can see performance or lack thereof they will likely add some further buffs. The issue is they take months to do simple potency changes at the best of times. They could think RPR needs work and we wont know for quite some time. The second any buffs for the job comes out you are proved wrong.

You are a non reaper main who for SOME reason (I wonder what) just wants reaper to feel worse? Is other people being happy with their job so horrible sounding to you? Is it an ego thing you don't want to have to actually compete in dps with them or what?? What exactly would the issue be for you?

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Originally Posted by Quyn

There really is no point of disagreement, hence the first word of my reply being yes ^^

I was merely reinforcing my distaste for when people call jobs easy, yet they never take them to savage.

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Oh gotcha x3 sorry, like I said I was running on fumes lol

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Originally Posted by Flashy

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Incorrect. From an rDPS standpoint, SAM was still on top at launch, which is where the job has been sitting comfortably for a while now. The complaint was that it didn't have enough of a dps lead to justify differences in 'complexity'/raid buffs/'utility' compared to RPR. Had none of this been brought up, SAM would still be sitting comfortably in that spot. But after that was scrutinized... well, the rest is history. This kind of insecure behavior always happens when a new job gets added to a role. Just watch, a new caster dps will come out next expansion, and players will start throwing stones at it because they feel threatened on established caster jobs that they've been playing for years. And it invariably backfires.

RPR is an incredibly fun job which caters to a wide range of skill levels. It doesn't need to be the most powerful melee dps, but there should be a lot more parity between them to ensure that differences are due to player skill and not job selection. I know that they want to incentivize less enjoyable jobs, but they should just fix the gameplay issues on them. Either way, we'll see what happens over the next few weeks.

Curious if theres no major issues with the jobs gameplay and can clear all available content totally fine, why complain about the damage, is it just for the logs?

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Originally Posted by MaaryZeleste

Even with the buff it got it's still going to be worse than the other melees by quite a significant margin.
Pls make the job not bad <3.

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RPR's fine like that, he's not a pure Dps.
With a well placed shield, you can heal your team via a HoT. You can buff your team +3% Dps and put a debuff increasing 10% dmg on the target or in AoE.

It's a kind of NIN.

It doesn't dps as much as a SAM or something, but it's pretty decent with the right stats.

Fun thing for the new savage is that right now MNK and RPR have the least amount of logged runs with about 800 while the other 3 are at 1350-1400 logs.
Also funny that the MNK is the highest DMG Melee and RPR the one with the lowest.
The difference of max parsed DMG between these two is just 2.2%.
Soo the difference of having a MNK instead of a RPR would be about 0.35% of the boss health.

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

RPR's fine like that, he's not a pure Dps.
With a well placed shield, you can heal your team via a HoT. You can buff your team +3% Dps and put a debuff increasing 10% dmg on the target or in AoE.

It's a kind of NIN.

It doesn't dps as much as a SAM or something, but it's pretty decent with the right stats.

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The Hot is tiny and will not be replacing any heal from your healer, in rare cases you might find it was useful that you popped it, in most cases it is just overheal. 3% dps is quite a small raid buff, mnk is 5% on brotherhood, ninja's mug is 5%. Yet the two jobs with a better raid buff (and mnk mantra imo is better than arcane crest) do a good chunk more damage than a reaper. They have a better raid buff, one has better party utility and they both outperform the rpr. It is not fine. The reaper was advertised as selfish like a sam. We have the more "selfish" style and lack the dmg meant to justify it. I would rather have no raid buff at all but I understand they probably didn't want reaper to compete directly with samurai as a pure dps. I am content doing less than a samurai, I am not happy that if you hid the job names and just looked at ff logs graph you would think reaper is a caster.

And you do realise that debuff is 10% damage for us alone right??

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Curious if theres no major issues with the jobs gameplay and can clear all available content totally fine, why complain about the damage, is it just for the logs?

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Some of it comes from expectation, but most of it comes from nowhere.

As far as expectation goes, we expect the Devs to follow their own standards they claim they've set when it comes to Job Balance, and discrepancies rightfully get called out, even should those discrepancies be minor in the grand scheme of things.

For example, using Reaper as that's being the topic of the thread, at the time of release, Arcane Crest violated the idea of utility vs damage. Whether or not it was too powerful wasn't the case - It was the fact that no other melee brought this capability, so as the initial scrutiny of its place in the damage meta began to sit, it becomes a glaring point of contention that you have a more flexible, more powerful, and non-offensively tied defensive utility that also benefits the party, compared to Samurai, who must use Third Eye to generate Kenki, Ninja's whose is available less often and selfish, Dragoon who gets hung out to dry, and Monk, who needs someone put the 'Oop' to their 'Alley' on Mantra.

This comes from the "expectation" that all Jobs have exactly (Using a hard number to illustrate this) 100 "points" to spend on their kit. If you take two jobs that deal the same amount of damage, then you expect that they have roughly equal capabilities in non-damage areas. The issue stems that some utilities are valued far more (RE: are more relevant to the content in question), so the final tally seems like it would outweigh another class whose utilities are not valued in said content.

Frankly we'll be doing this dance until the end of time, because while the Devs won't outright clone every job, they will adjust it enough that these small utilities will effectively be the only difference, and therefore will become even more contentious as small utilities shift in their value from each patch of the game.

Without a significant paradigm shift in their job philosophy, this is the lot they have chosen to deal with.

As for the "most of it comes from nowhere" part, a good amount of that just stems from a general playerbase not knowing what any job other than their own has been through or is capable of, and sometimes, not even then.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

The Hot is tiny and will not be replacing any heal from your healer, in rare cases you might find it was useful that you popped it, in most cases it is just overheal. 3% dps is quite a small raid buff, mnk is 5% on brotherhood, ninja's mug is 5%. Yet the two jobs with a better raid buff (and mnk mantra imo is better than arcane crest) do a good chunk more damage than a reaper. They have a better raid buff, one has better party utility and they both outperform the rpr. It is not fine. The reaper was advertised as selfish like a sam. We have the more "selfish" style and lack the dmg meant to justify it. I would rather have no raid buff at all but I understand they probably didn't want reaper to compete directly with samurai as a pure dps. I am content doing less than a samurai, I am not happy that if you hid the job names and just looked at ff logs graph you would think reaper is a caster.

And you do realise that debuff is 10% damage for us alone right??

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I didn't know, my bad, it must be said that the French translation is not very clear in this respect. I had reread it several times. On second thoughts it's more obvious.

And I never said he was a healer. It's like the DNC heal, it's a little HoT. This isn't ESO either.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Every melee has options for moving around, each have their own pro/con, and who honestly cares about a 1-2-3 potency? Other melee also have their own personal mits such as third eye, riddle of earth, shade shift. Superior ranged atk? Our ranged atk requires the movement ability be used else it is a cast unlike other jobs instant use ability, harvest moon you get one use out of unless there is prolonged downtime.

Frankly you sound salty. Every melee has options, mnk being the exception with no ranged atk. And under no circumstance will you EVER be using arcane crest's heal instead of a healer's ogcd heal. The healing it gives is a meme and very very rarely does it feel impactful. It's a 10% mit that also happens to have a heal attached similar to summon's pheonix having a heal that they don't give a crap about. If I could cherry pick I would take a ninja point and click mobility over rpr's set distance leap, to ME ninja's mobility is superior as you have more choice with it as well as 2x charges. As a healer I would rather have a monk mantra to help me than a reaper's arcane crest. And people love a dragoon for it's crit buff alone. Does not seem to me like the other melee are lacking vs rpr.

It's balance on release is irrelevant, they buffed everything above it. It shouldn't have been top, it should not be buffed to be the top. No reaper I know is asking to be the top dps. We are asking to not be so far behind in dps when our job is supposed to be selfish similar to a samurai as Yoshi P said in the live letter pre release. That is what they intended and it is NOT what we have currently. RPR should be a bit below a samurai not dead last trailing a job that gives superior raid buffs.

Also just because YOU think it's in a good spot does not mean SE agrees, they just buffed it so it clearly wasn't good enough and now it's on live servers and they can see performance or lack thereof they will likely add some further buffs. The issue is they take months to do simple potency changes at the best of times. They could think RPR needs work and we wont know for quite some time. The second any buffs for the job comes out you are proved wrong.

You are a non reaper main who for SOME reason (I wonder what) just wants reaper to feel worse? Is other people being happy with their job so horrible sounding to you? Is it an ego thing you don't want to have to actually compete in dps with them or what?? What exactly would the issue be for you?

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I don't agree with any of that, reaper seems perfectly balanced right now.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

RPR never was the highest job in terms of rDPS

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This is False.

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Originally Posted by Flashy

RPR/MNK were clearly the best melee until 6.08 or whenever all melee except RPR were buffed
Personally as a SAM player at the time, I didn't care much because I was still learning the new rotation but it was a little annoying since RPR had a raid buff and outperformed SAM even in aDPS if I recall correctly

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So to set the record straight as of December 17 - 2021, here's the RDPS chart and lets recall it correctly RPR was released December 3rd

https://i.ibb.co/X4bW0Jg/RPRpng.png

Now if you go back to FFlogs " now " you will see patch 6.0 / 6.1 and 6.2 but you won't exactly see 6.01 or 6.05 or 6.08 ( rip Kaiten ) and during the period where everyone was on the RPR meta, be it short lived, the Balance Discord blew up with overwhelming RDPS Charts. You can still view them if you wish. So it's false to say Reaper never was at the top.

There were plenty Samurai's malding over this, this is true. Cause why take a Samurai into your raid? when you can get a top performing RDPS RPR, while providing Raidbuffs? and any other Melee brings something else well? it makes no sense to have a Samurai, just have RPR + another melee with Raidbuffs. I had no issues finding parties though, that was a period where I was part of a Static.

But, my main issue isn't even about who's top ranked. It's the promise that SE promised that RPR was supposedly going to be a bit more on the Selfish side if people still recalled this. That shoulda been their identity then by SE's definition. And by current standards if you look now at the graphs... you be the judge if SE actually came through with that.

For the balance of the game?
RPR probably doesn't need a buff. And probably no other Job needs a buff either it's all perfect. For player satisfaction? I guess that's a different issue. Look at me? I am top Job and I am not happy with how shallow they made my Job from my opinion. It's top... its shallow though...

And if SE thinks this is balanced? that's kinda it. If you think this isn't fair? just voice it. However it was not true that RPR never was at the top. The patch however was very short lived when RPR stayed at the top.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

This is False.




So to set the record straight as of December 17 - 2021, here's the RDPS chart and lets recall it correctly RPR was released December 3rd

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A graph without headings is useless.

Include those, if you don't mind.

FFlogs seems a bit wonky right now. If you look at the current raid tier as a whole, it looks like Reaper is quite a bit behind (5% behind the top, a little over 3% behind the melee over it), but when you look at it on a fight by fight basis, Reaper only ever seems to be behind the top dps by about 2% and is .5% behind the melee above it, which happens to be NIN which everyone is complaining is OP (which really was mostly just DSR being conducive to burst windows).

Also in all these cases, Reaper adps and ndps is either 3rd or 4th out of all 11 dps classes, so yeah it's plenty selfish enough, it's just that Arcane Circle and Circle of Sacrifice stacks throw off the perception of being selfish. For reference when it comes to Circle of sacrifice, assuming no one but yourself triggers it, you lose 245 potency every 2 minutes, less than one Weaponskill. A SAM that triggers Third Eye 3 times out of 8 possible casts gets more dps in that 2 minute window from something entirely reliant on fight design.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

A graph without headings is useless.

Include those, if you don't mind.

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A callout I assume without backing is lazy and useless. I'll include the link to the " https://discord.gg/thebalanceffxiv " you can CTRL+F search function the discord for the sources.

But to just be sure here it is

https://i.ibb.co/m9qT2W0/reaper2.png

and you can read at the top left rDPS was selected


Now to really make sure you're not calling me out on BS cause of the coloring, here's the conversation which again you can CTRL+F which you won't do cause that's evidence with sources come on now that's lazy, which also is littered with a lot and I do mean a ton... of conversations about the same topic of RPR top RDPS yes in that period with dates even and with more screenshots...


https://i.ibb.co/z7SmHsv/reaper3.png

Apparently they were testing Chrome backlight settings compared to dark-mode. I prefer dark mode and that's the one I posted so apologies for not Including a hard to find source that you can not just Google search to FFlogs and find it. But! Lazy callouts is the name of the game, so we can go even further! and go to the


" FFXIV-PatchArchive " in it stating that in 6.05 Reaper got nerfed by Patch 6.05
" Arcane Crest's cure potency from the Crest of Time Returned effect has been reduced from 100 to 50. "

Huh, which honestly doesn't explain why Reaper got out performed during this period. What gives? Well if you read the next patches... it seems factually true that Reaper performance remained the same, while nearly every over Job got buffed beyond Reaper that made Reaper look weak cause in comparison it got outranked.

Unless you want to question the FFXIV Patchnotes as uncreditable sources.

Here I put " Patchnotes " in size 4 headings. Want anything else in headings =__= ;?

Judging by the logs Reaper did indeed get nerfed. Reapers DPS values weren't touched but other job classes values got bigger. And since those values overshadowed Reaper numbers, as a result Reaper gets played less in favor of you guessed it higher DPS.

Very much a case of "We didn't nerf Reaper but we buffed a lot of other folks to do better then Reaper".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

A callout I assume without backing is lazy and useless.

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I can quite literally link you any graph and make any claim I want if I also don't include the navigation for you to get there.

In other words, it's basic information sharing to include the source for others to look into it directly, instead of blindly believing it.

Thank you.

Edit: I'll be providing you an example, for instance, just give me a few minutes to comb through things.

https://i.imgur.com/nVC1PY8.png

So far example, here we have a direct refutation to the idea that Reaper was the Top DPS. Certainly good, mind, but not the best. That seems to go to Monk. As you can see, I've included the timeline at the bottom so you can look at the various dates where patches dropped and you can directly see its result in the following weeks.

What is perhaps most interesting is that monk's buff was quite minor but it still rockets ahead of Reaper, by an inordinate amount. There's a few ways to explain this, but it's primarily the fact that the Crit meta favors classes who can stack all of their potency into the crit windows, and when it comes to "RDPS", the Reaper's party buff is fairly weak so as the party improves, its own relative improvement isn't that great. Combine this with the fact that Monk has stupid crit scaling and it's fairly obvious why the Monk, with barely any changes, sees a similar divide between itself and Reaper that the other classes require significant buffing to achieve.

That said, do you know why you shouldn't believe this?

It's because I haven't provided you headers. You don't know what this encounter is, and therefore would be hardpressed to to bring up the data to look for it yourself. Even if you did luck into the same graph, there's alsways the plausible explanation that they just look similar and aren't one and the same.

Here's the full graph with easily read and searchable headings.

https://i.imgur.com/Okjt6OC.png

Now you see it's only a singular encounter, not an aggregate, but singular encounters tell us more about what encounters favor what class. Glancing at the other encounters doesn't play much in Reaper's favor either, nor does its fall from grace be explained when some of the jobs soaring past it are ones who received feather light touches.

Were I to venture a guess, you had more proficient people playing Reaper to learn it prior to the raids coming out, inflating how it looked compared to the rest of the jobs, especially jobs who need more practice in a particular encounter in order to start hitting their stride. That isn't to say Reaper was bad, just that it rightfully had the majority of the focus.

It is a prog friendly job.

Things have settled out now and while other jobs certainly need a looking at before them, we could probably toss another 100-200 potency onto Communio and things would be fine, but we should really wait for a few more weeks of data, just that referencing the 6.1 patch standings, there's room for them to wiggle up.

Edit2: Adding a few more observations

As player capability improves, the Reaper's lead shrinks significantly prior to the savage patch, which again leads to the assumption that the Reaper had a focus on it for those looking to learn and optimize early, and then as that focus shifted out to other jobs, the lead it has shrinks. Monk and Black Mage would have eclipsed Reaper with no adjustments.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Naoki34

I didn't know, my bad, it must be said that the French translation is not very clear in this respect. I had reread it several times. On second thoughts it's more obvious.

And I never said he was a healer. It's like the DNC heal, it's a little HoT. This isn't ESO either.

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No worries, even the english has a couple words missing in it actually. They need to fix that. If that 10% was a permanent party buff reaper would be giga broken.

I do think the DNC heal is a stronger potency, esp if it's stacked. Honestly the point myself and others wanna make is reaper is meant to be selfish, it has the smaller raid buff it has the weaker utility and it does not have the damage it should given these things. It's annoying. And as we have seen in the current savage this small dps difference matters. Xeno had to swap off his warrior, arthurs pally had to swap as well.

It's significant enough that people WILL exclude a reaper in favour of other melee. Esp pf's whose leaders know they need a carry. I have seen them already do that to mch on extreme and savage farm.

my only beef with reaper is that it is possible to overwrite gluttony/gibbet/gallow/soul reaver stacks.

why?