Summoner changes that should happen onto 7.0

It's really fucking dumb idea however to limit the one feature that makes a class not feel completely like a slow lobotomy to near level cap because muh lore.

I want some synergy with fester/painflare.
I want carbuncle out, radiant aegis to be cast by myself.
I want dots back, even a single dot and an aoe dot (bio can be single target and miasma be aoe).
Even if some people doesnt like it, i want more casting skills, too much instant skills.
I like Phoenix rekindle, but i want it aoe (so doesnt interrupt targeting), i want deathflare out, buff bahamuth damage and change deathflare for barrier, what i propose is, Phoenix gives healing and bahamuth gives barrier.
I want bahamuth and phoenix cast akh morhn/revelation inmediatly after being summoned, rather than using a button.

I want physick to be useful at lv 90 (maybe instant with a cd, a hot, etc...)

I want them to take a long look at what made old summoner enjoyable at every level from 1-80 and add if not it then an approximation. Also they should either entirely get rid of the pets or keep them and restore functionality. Currently it seems the big primals fill that spot (which is why carbuncle gets unsummoned) and miraculously it’s still possible to ghost inputs.

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Originally Posted by Bacillus

I want some synergy with fester/painflare.
I want carbuncle out, radiant aegis to be cast by myself.
I want dots back, even a single dot and an aoe dot (bio can be single target and miasma be aoe).

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yes, give us 1 dot back (with miasma / spread again)..., that could be the a simple, effect & satisfying solution

+ it could give the dps increase smn could realy use @90.., it wont break smn cause of one extra dot..
(if too OP on lower levels, just decrease the timer length or / and potency @lower levels)

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Currently it seems the big primals fill that spot (which is why carbuncle gets unsummoned) and miraculously it’s still possible to ghost inputs.

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that is a painfull issue, maybe why smn are not doing the dps they should??

... eitherway, summoning the trio primals ghosts way too often (!)... or miss out on buffs last sec, due to the freaking long time between summon (button hiting) and actuall action (damage register)

this issue really shouldn't exist in the 1st place, thought one main fix for smn 6.0, was no more lag input.., but, but, but..

No to Bio and Miasma, for goodness sake those dots belong on Scholar. Not Summoner. Adding dots back will not provide anything in the way of unique or interesting mechanics. Adding new effects or abilities to Astral Flow however can offer more uniqueness per Summon and if we get the option to choose a select 3 out of more options, that will provide far more in the way of meaningful decision making.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

No to Bio and Miasma, for goodness sake those dots belong on Scholar. Not Summoner. Adding dots back will not provide anything in the way of unique or interesting mechanics. Adding new effects or abilities to Astral Flow however can offer more uniqueness per Summon and if we get the option to choose a select 3 out of more options, that will provide far more in the way of meaningful decision making.

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I don’t mind having a DoT, but please keep the poison magic away from us… it doesn’t fit the job thematically in any way shape or form.

It honestly doesn’t even fit arcanist based off of the little lore tidbit.

A scholar using poison magic sounds tactical to me. I think it fits the DPS side is their kit.

That all being said, I’m not asking for DoTs.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

I don’t mind having a DoT, but please keep the poison magic away from us… it doesn’t fit the job thematically in any way shape or form.

It honestly doesn’t even fit arcanist based off of the little lore tidbit.

A scholar using poison magic sounds tactical to me. I think it fits the DPS side is their kit.

That all being said, I’m not asking for DoTs.

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SCH used to be a DOT mage and it perfectly matched their lore, 3.x SCH was such a well crafted job because of it, all of its kit synergised well with itself while also being thematically accurate, it is 100% the peak of this games healer design

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

It's really fucking dumb idea however to limit the one feature that makes a class not feel completely like a slow lobotomy to near level cap because muh lore.

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It is, but that's what people asked for. Same with with completely removing egi/carbuncle synergy and replacing it with....
https://i.imgur.com/87O4ukf.jpeg
An offbrand Black Mage with Ressurection still attached to it. Removing any sense of synergy because people kept going on about "but in other final fantasies they just did the 1 attack and went to go get milk and cigarettes"; And what we have is the result of that; with then the dev team having to scramble to fit it into the game, in lore, and create the now mind numbing leveling venture.

Other final fantasies are fully irrelevant. In this very same expansion as introducing new summoner they added sage(scholar), which bears no resemblance whatsoever to prior incarnations.

You're not getting poison magic back on Summoner unless you somehow convince the people who now play the job to want it back. We don't. What we largely want is more abilities for new Summoner, not things from the past. You want dots and poison magic, then please ask for Necromancer or another dark-themed caster which this game is missing and would better fit that kit than Summoner.

The two identities this job was struggling with was divorced for a reason. A re-merging of them will absolutely cause me to drop the class in its entirety in favor of literally any of the other classes that do not suffer from this sort of thematic confusion.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

You're not getting poison magic back on Summoner unless you somehow convince the people who now play the job to want it back. We don't. What we largely want is more abilities for new Summoner, not things from the past. You want dots and poison magic, then please ask for Necromancer or another dark-themed caster which this game is missing and would better fit that kit than Summoner.

The two identities this job was struggling with was divorced for a reason. A re-merging of them will absolutely cause me to drop the class in its entirety in favor of literally any of the other classes that do not suffer from this sort of thematic confusion.

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I mean the more of ACN has always centred on poisons and tactics, it’s why SCH used to be a DOT mage as well. I would rather they make current SMN more complex than go back to something imitating 5.0 SMN but let’s not act like there isn’t a developed lore reason why the ACN classes have always been poison mages

What we usually get without a rework in 10 levels are

1. Upgrade of existing spells
2. Ability that grants something
3. New spell (usually 1)

It will be a bit of a stretch for them to give us 3 new primals - leviathan, ramuh and shiva in a single expansion. The current 3 primals are upgrade of their egis, and the addition of them was easier as the primals and their animations already existed in the game (HoH). In my opinion, we won't be getting the 3 new primals.

I can imagine they do some of the following:
1. Ruin Mastery V - Increases the potency of Ruin III and elemental rites.
2. Elemental Mastery II - Increases the potency of deathflare and elemental favors.
3. Enhanced Aetherflow - Increases the stack of aetherflows by 1
4. Radiant Aegis II - Orders Carbuncle to exexute Radiant Aegis II which creates a barrier around all party members
5. Enhanced Summon Phoenix - Upgrades Summon Phoenix to Summon Alexander.

The current 60sec smn rotation is pretty full. I'm not sure how they add new gcd spells without removing some of the existing ones. It will be boring if what we get are merely upgrades of the old ones. A 3rd demi which also only do 11111? <.<

This talk of dots for whatever reasons keep going back to poison spells not even recognizing that we still have a dot spell. A dot spell thats got this weird relationship of being stripped from us, given to our pet, then given back to us in the form of Slipstream. And just because people are using the word DOTs doesn't always mean Bio/Miasma. FF does have elemental related dots; Burn, Rasp, Choke, that could be utilized in anyway that's more engaging with what we have now. Also anything and everything in this game can be considered a dot if we wanna pull out the meme table.

I don't care for dots myself. Never put much attention in Warlock when playing wow and never cared for it on SMN. But removing so much spells from us with nothing to replace them and then pet abilities taken away from lower levels and given back to us as player actions at 86, is pretty ridiculous this is applauded as a successful rework. Thematically? Sure. Design wise? This is the lowest bar in jobs we have in engagement.

I’m not interested in lore at this point when people use it to excuse things like adding Bio and Miasma back to class while barring Shiva from being added as a summon spell for us - at this point it should have no bearing if it’s going to be used as a means to limit the summoner identity further while propping up arcanist, which should not be usurping Summoner.

Garuda’s dot that you don’t have to manage is one thing, fire and forget spells that do not define the whole of the job are fine. What we don’t need is to have a dot to manage when there’s better class design options available for Summoner, which has historically leaned more towards massive burst damage. Damage over time fundamentally does not fulfill the fantasy people are looking for in this job.

What should be explored right now are ways to make the trance spells and astral flow ability more unique between each summon, incorporating elder summons like Alexander and Odin, and leaving the past behind where it belongs.

Nah the people who enjoy new summoner can go and enjoy white mage, black mage or one of the many existing physical ranged jobs. The people who enjoyed old summoner have nowhere to go and should have their job retuned to them. Or do I get to whinge at SE until they add flare, holy and bahamut to sage?

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Originally Posted by Kulve

This talk of dots for whatever reasons keep going back to poison spells not even recognizing that we still have a dot spell. A dot spell thats got this weird relationship of being stripped from us, given to our pet, then given back to us in the form of Slipstream. And just because people are using the word DOTs doesn't always mean Bio/Miasma. FF does have elemental related dots; Burn, Rasp, Choke, that could be utilized in anyway that's more engaging with what we have now. Also anything and everything in this game can be considered a dot if we wanna pull out the meme table.

I don't care for dots myself. Never put much attention in Warlock when playing wow and never cared for it on SMN. But removing so much spells from us with nothing to replace them and then pet abilities taken away from lower levels and given back to us as player actions at 86, is pretty ridiculous this is applauded as a successful rework. Thematically? Sure. Design wise? This is the lowest bar in jobs we have in engagement.

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I mean I use poison to describe any DOT mage even if they have nothing to do with actual poison, if new SMN got dropsy, fracture, slipstream and choke I’d still call it a poison mage

Otherwise I totally agree removing mechanics that used to come with our CLASS and give them back at 86 is just shockingly bad game design

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Nah the people who enjoy new summoner can go and enjoy white mage, black mage or one of the many existing physical ranged jobs. The people who enjoyed old summoner have nowhere to go and should have their job retuned to them. Or do I get to whinge at SE until they add flare, holy and bahamut to sage?

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It is understood you want a dot-based caster of some sort, and it has been explained to you several times why Summoner does not fit this identity very well and why jobs like Necromancer or Time Mage do. I encourage you to reflect on what you can do best to ensure your interests are best represented, but I don’t believe that continuing to involve yourself in attempts to revert Summoner back to its previous incarnation is an effective way to accomplish your goals.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

It is understood you want a dot-based caster of some sort, and it has been explained to you several times why Summoner does not fit this identity very well and why jobs like Necromancer or Time Mage do. I encourage you to reflect on what you can do best to ensure your interests are best represented, but I don’t believe that continuing to involve yourself in attempts to revert Summoner back to its previous incarnation is an effective way to accomplish your goals.

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I mean by exactly the same argument why couldn’t the current iteration be the new job and old SMN left as the DOT mage, the FF series can barely agree on what a SMN is an even then 14 isn’t against going against established lore like SGE anyway

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean by exactly the same argument why couldn’t the current iteration be the new job and old SMN left as the DOT mage, the FF series can barely agree on what a SMN is an even then 14 isn’t against going against established lore like SGE anyway

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Maybe just maybe because a job that summons things that do an attack and then leave fits Summoner moreso than a poison mage.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Maybe just maybe because a job that summons things that do an attack and then leave fits Summoner moreso than a poison mage.

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I mean old SMN still summoned and controlled things, honestly actually having controllable summons feels more SMN esque than “glorified big spell”

SMN is as always a tactician with its summons made of complex webs of aether and I’d consider poison to be a perfect weapon for a tactician

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean old SMN still summoned and controlled things, honestly actually having controllable summons feels more SMN esque than “glorified big spell”

SMN is as always a tactician with its summons made of complex webs of aether and I’d consider poison to be a perfect weapon for a tactician

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Please do not take my words out of context when they were clearly referring to previous Final Fantasy titles and not the FFXIV job which has suffered from 8 years of thematic confusion that they wrote lore around in order to try and justify its limited state.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Please do not take my words out of context when they were clearly referring to previous Final Fantasy titles and not the FFXIV job which has suffered from 8 years of thematic confusion that they wrote lore around in order to try and justify its limited state.

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I mean the lore of this game is the only lore that’s relevant, I couldn’t care less about the lore of ff8 or whatever random ff game supports your ideal version of SMN

14 SMN is (was) a tactician and poison magic fits that lore perfectly

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean the lore of this game is the only lore that’s relevant, I couldn’t care less about the lore of ff8 or whatever random ff game supports your ideal version of SMN

14 SMN is (was) a tactician and poison magic fits that lore perfectly

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And now we’re talking about lore again after I had already said my piece as to how I disagree with how some people are using it to take Summoner in the poison mage direction. I was talking about gameplay in earlier titles. There are some basic things that should be consistent in terms of job gameplay and fantasy that weren’t respected in FFXIV’s Summoner, ultimately to the detriment of the class that resulted in the rework.

I think that the lore they wrote to justify the not-Warlock class of FFXIV was bad, and that this class deserved a far greater deal of respect to its source material than what FFXIV showed it from the beginning.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

And now we’re talking about lore again after I had already said my piece as to how I disagree with how some people are using it to take Summoner in the poison mage direction. I was talking about gameplay in earlier titles. There are some basic things that should be consistent in terms of job gameplay and fantasy that weren’t respected in FFXIV’s Summoner, ultimately to the detriment of the class that resulted in the rework.

I think that the lore they wrote to justify the not-Warlock class of FFXIV was bad, and that this class deserved a far greater deal of respect to its source material than what FFXIV showed it from the beginning.

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Okay but the other ff titles are literally irrelevant, are you fuming that SGE is a gundam healer, what about that WHM lost its elemental focus, RDM’s healing is functionally useless. Few of the jobs really follow previous games and I don’t think they need to. 14 explains why it’s SMN was the way it is and I’m happy with that

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Okay but the other ff titles are literally irrelevant, are you fuming that SGE is a gundam healer, what about that WHM lost its elemental focus, RDM’s healing is functionally useless. Few of the jobs really follow previous games and I don’t think they need to. 14 explains why it’s SMN was the way it is and I’m happy with that

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No. Because unlike Warlock era Summoner
Sage didn’t bring with it thematic confusion and retained the aspect of attacking and healing - the sole concession I will make on it is that keeping Alphinaud in that role will look out of place if and when this game ever returns to a traditional high fantasy setting.

Red Mage, a job that worked with all sorts of status effects back in FFXI could’ve also worked as a dot job and I would’ve gladly ceded it to the people who are into them. However, they managed to make a unique caster that was pretty well received without going that route.

In any case I am just as unlikely to convince you as you are unlikely to convince me on the merits of FFXIV Summoner’s lore. This is where we’ll agree to disagree on the matter, as it’s unlikely anything productive will come of further discussing this aspect of the job.

What we need now are meaningful solutions that are not reversions, and for the people who want them to go ask for Necromancer or Time Mage.

Where are my sage summons? I demand nothing less than full mastery of black, white and summoning magic for it to be a true implementation.

Summoner had the same traits as older summoners, but adapted to fit the game. You used the appropriate summon for the situation- in this case ifrit for single target, titan for two(formerly tanking) and garuda for many. Since that’s the entirety of traditional summoner, mission successful. Rather depressingly current summoner - where you vomit crayons at the enemy with reason and rhyme having no say in the matter - is a far poorer interpretation of the job fantasy.

I almost didn't recognize you, aveyond.
The poison DOT discussion is something that getting rid of put the foot in the door for turning summons into vanishing dad simulator from people arguing semantics and being contrarian over "well the egis are DOT" and other such.
The main thing that Summoner is suffering from that was hastily stripped away is the synergy between egis/carbuncle and the summoner. Ordering whichever egi/carbuncle was out to continue applying damage, or skill while the summoner continues their stuff before summoning bahamut or phoenix. In alliance raids or elsewhere, a summoner used to be able to tell their egi/carbuncle to go attack other enemy while the summoner would do their thing. That back and forth being able to combine and tag team on enemies was what allowed that synergy to excel and show itself. The carbuncle was degraded into a crayon eating carbuncle looking at anyone with its beady eyes asking for the sweet release of death, and only serves as a sad reminder of the synergy it once had. Could it have been moved to OGCD instead of running alongside the main abilities to better have that tag team wombo combo ability? Of course.

But that's the hill on summoner's past iterations I'm willing to wipe for. And it is why the only smallest smidgen of hope of seeing that return of a tag-team synergy class would be something like Beast Tamer/Beast Master; they could make it restricted to join Blue Mage, and even make the monster allies re-targetable by enemies. I would suggest Squenix to play Shin Megami Tensei Imagine Online for more ideas on how to bring out that synergy, but the official severs have been shut down. But the likelyhood of seeing Beast Tamer/Beast Master is slim, and if so, would probably show up as an announcement for patch 9.3 or 10.3

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

It's really fucking dumb idea however to limit the one feature that makes a class not feel completely like a slow lobotomy to near level cap because muh lore.

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yeah, imo the BIG problem is pre-90 gameplay, lv 50-80 are now real lobotomies.., those are level key points

... imo 90 isn't that bad, its just missing a last spice, like dots

(just hope SE doest go full tard when revamping smn, like making it harder to play than HW blm 6.0, with clunky pets again *wait, they are still clunkc when summoning them xD*..., and still having low dps or something)

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

yeah, imo the BIG problem is pre-90 gameplay, lv 50-80 are now real lobotomies.., those are level key points

... imo 90 isn't that bad, its just missing a last spice, like dots

(just hope SE doest go full tard when revamping smn, like making it harder to play than HW blm 6.0, with clunky pets again *wait, they are still clunkc when summoning them xD*..., and still having low dps or something)

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On the other hand literally the only advantage of current SMN is that it is absolutely cracked in 70 ultimates to the point you are actively griefing if you don’t bring one

At level 90 it plays like a slightly less involved healer. This is completely unacceptable on a dps, and really shows that there is something fundamentally wrong with their approach to the rework, particularly with how poorly shadowbringers' healer rotations have been recieved.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Otherwise I totally agree removing mechanics that used to come with our CLASS and give them back at 86 is just shockingly bad game design

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The rework should have been:

lv60 Summon Bahamut
lv60 Astral Impulse
lv60 Astral Flare
lv60 Astral Flow
lv60 Deathflare
lv60 Wyrmwave
lv60 Enkindle Bahamut
lv60 Akh Morn

lv70 Crimson Cyclone
lv70 Crimson Strike
lv70 Mountain Buster
lv70 Slipstream

lv80 Summon Phoenix
lv80 Fountain of Fire
lv80 Brand of Purgatory
lv80 Everlasting Flight
lv80 Rekindle
lv80 Scarlet Flame
lv80 Enkindle Phoenix
lv80 Revelation

lv86 SOMETHING NEW

lv90 Summon II

We honestly should of gotten all of the elements. Holding Shiva, Leviathan and Ramuh back until 7.0 is really strange to me. If that’s the only upgrade we get at level 100 allot of players will be livid. The only saving grace is if they also give us a new Demi-primal to summon. Alexander perhaps.

They can add as many elemental summons and demisummons as they like and it still won't make the job remotely enjoyable. Quite possibly less because they'll either go unused for lacking damage or because they're just another skin on the homogenous slurry that they're serving.

It has been explained to you multiple times why and how adding new summons will provide people the meaningful decision making they’ve been looking for along with fulfilling the job fantasy that while somewhat there, is still presently lacking when compared to the Summoner of FFXI or other games. In order to proceed with this discussion in a more productive manner, it is best to take solution-oriented approach.

I think you'll find that the foot is on the other shoe here: you have this absurd enforced 2 minute rotation which is 2 demis and 2x3 crayon regurgitation. If you had say 6 primals it would either be bahamut [garuda/titan/ifrit] phoenix [shiva/ramuh/that forgettable one] or eg bahamut [ramuh/titan/shiva] phoenix [ramuh/titan/shiva]. With another demi, all that can and will change is the appearance of the pet briefly summoned. There is no meaning nor decision making to be had in the job as it stands, nor will there be without a complete change of course in the dev team's design priorities.

New summoner is dead on arrival. Without yet another severe rework it has no room for growth - the leveling rotation perhaps underlining this better than I could ever hope to articulate.

I no longer care to repeat myself by restating the ways that I and others have described in which we don’t have to follow that rigid roadmap without upending the job in its entirety. You had every opportunity to go about things in a more open minded manner and discuss ways in which the job could be improved but you have chosen against doing just that. I’m finished interacting with you and hope that at some point the class that you want is added to the game, though not at the cost of new Summoner.

The job I want added to the game is old summoner.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I no longer care to repeat myself by restating the ways that I and others have described in which we don’t have to follow that rigid roadmap without upending the job in its entirety. You had every opportunity to go about things in a more open minded manner and discuss ways in which the job could be improved but you have chosen against doing just that. I’m finished interacting with you and hope that at some point the class that you want is added to the game, though not at the cost of new Summoner.

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The single comment I can find from you that doesn’t involve arguing with me about weather poison magic does or doesn’t belong on summoner simply says “nothing Moogle related” so can you please explain how we are supposed to avoid this rigid two minute rotation that ends up coming down to which order we eat our crayons in

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Adding new effects or abilities to Astral Flow however can offer more uniqueness per Summon and if we get the option to choose a select 3 out of more options, that will provide far more in the way of meaningful decision making.

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There you go. And for the last time, no poison magic does not belong on Summoner. If that's the sort of gameplay you're into then go ask for Time Mage or Necromancer. Leave us alone already.