As melee main doing content on dancer is abysmall snoozefest. You have all the freedom in terms of your position but entire rotation consists of just 2 buttons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Haventale
Why are Ranged DPS so unfun to play?
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07-15-2022, 04:27 PMStasya
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07-16-2022, 12:42 AMPayotzAnd I would argue that the role itself won't be taxed because it's already taxed for utility that's not even there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Ranged Physicals only purpose is to give a 1% uncontrollable dps buff and LB regen, that's it. That's literally the only reason why they're being taken in parties, and even that's barely hitting the minimum.
Ranged Physicals are already paying for the price of utility, without getting any utility in return. That's my whole argument.
There's no tax awaiting for the role because it's already built in to how low dps the role is compared to the other roles.
In fact, there was a time when the 1% dps buff wasn't even enough back in ShB launch, and that people would bring double BLMs instead of a physical ranged and caster precisely because the role has been overtaxed ever since the rework from Stormblood to Shadowbringers. Refresh is not gonna tax the role because they are already taxed as if it exists currently.
Giving back utility hits two birds with one stone. It gives back the identity of the role as utility dps, AND it justifies the low dps that the role actually brings, despite the 1% dps buff.
And even then, the "tax" for free movement or all this utility is just added responsibility for the ranged physical player. The mechanics that are designed with the role in mind will be the "tax" for both of those things as a Ranged Physical will have to bait AoEs out of the party, or make sure to CC the right things.
The role itself is not gonna be taxed even further than it currently is.
And also with that logic then things like Combat Peloton will tax the role itself, when it simply wouldn't. Refresh is not as strong as a raise to warrant extreme adjustments. It's in-line with Palisade, Combat Peloton, and current Tactician.
They are utility though. They're the most basic type of utility which is a damage cooldown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
In fact, they have the same gameplay as the utility you mention(Intervention and Divine Benison), which is either pressing it on cooldown for a free 500 potency heal (Divine Benison) or pressing it in a specific time according to the mitigation sheet (Intervention). You would frequently either delay and move raid buffs to optimal timings without losing a use depending on the fight.
If the boss jumps at the 2 min mark, then you're gonna call for raid buffs at 2 min and 30 seconds.
If for some reason at 4 mins 30 seconds, there's a mechanic that's happening that's a Hello World type mechanic, where you can't keep uptime on the boss as a party, then you're going to delay the raid buff call to maybe after the mechanic finishes.
There's also specific scenarios where you need to do a tight dps check here, so you hold on your 2 mins, and then use it on the tight dps check that you have to break in order to go to the next phase (like rewind DSR).
There's also specific scenarios where you delay raid buffs to line up with pot timings as well.
Raid buffs have a lot more gameplay than "pressing it on cooldown" if you delve into optimizing it, which is specifically what you said what's good with Mage's Ballad.
Your definition of both "just shifting numbers around to be moved back" and "bad utility with no gameplay" applies to the 1% DPS buff that each role provides to the party (which they provide by merely existing )
In fact, I can even dispute the existence of Divine Benison and Intervention with your argument against Refresh, in that Divine Benison and Intervention holds additional cooldowns hostage, and that it's just extra CPM you just press at the same time every single pull anyway. According to your logic, all of this utility is just needless CPM that should be taken out because it just makes Healers heal less and it should be baked passively in the trait Tank Mastery because it literally has the same gameplay as Lucid Dreaming, which is nonsensical.
And by that logic, Refresh is more of a utility skill and has better interesting gameplay than both Divine Benison, Intervention and all the raid buffs because you can use it as a prog tool AND you can plan for it for heal heavy phases that the dev team will design new fights around, because Refresh is a baseline role action. -
07-16-2022, 05:35 AMMimiluI rarely play as melee but for me, DNC is more of a priority system with a rotation vs a complete rotation set in stone. °˖✧◝(⁰▿⁰)◜✧˖°Quote:
Originally Posted by Stasya
Is your Standard Step buff at 5-10 seconds?
Is your opener/rotation resetting with Technical Step and Devilment ready and Flourish at around 10-or less seconds?
If you're mid rotation and the enemy became untouchable, will using Flourish when it pops back misalign it for your opener reset?
Do you have 80+ Esprit?
If you're in a situation where you have to AoE multiple enemies, are their 2-5 enemies or more? (If 2-5, use Standard Step on cooldown, for more just use weaponskills)
Do you have Weaponskill procs?
Do you have Feather Dance III proc?
If you're out of Technical Step, do you have more then 3 Feathers for Feather Dance 1/2?
If no, use your vanilla weaponskill rotation. -
07-16-2022, 08:29 AMShurrikhanYou can't simultaneously argue "the tax is excessive/bullshit" and "it'd be fine to be more taxed".Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
If, given the sheer amount of mobility given to the modern caster role and the lack of downtime for melee in modern encounters, you feel that Physical Ranged are underpowered --which I'd agree with-- you simply deal with that first and foremost.
"Ahh, your underpaid? Worry not! This job throws in coupons to Starbucks and Stapples! Hope you have use for them!" No. Don't try to shore up a job's basic imbalance with eclectic situational value unless you want the affected job to be competitive only situationally.
The alternative, again, is higher rDPS, baseline, in all situations and then access to utility at opportunity cost (which allows it to be more varied, gameplay-involved, and powerful), instead of trying to come to a rough rDPS equation on the basis of a mix of utility (the value of which, if actual utility, would doubtless vary situationally).
Then where does that lead us?Quote:
They are utility though. They're the most basic type of utility which is a damage cooldown.
Raging Strikes? Damage Cooldown. Must be utility.
Gauss Barrel? Damage. On a cooldown. Must be utility.
Even an auto-attack is damage on a cooldown.
Except, you do not have to hold Refresh for a raid jump any more than Lucid Dreaming, because Refresh's value has nothing to do with upcoming duration/uptime. You need only not use it when healer MP is absolutely topped off.Quote:
And by that logic, Refresh is more of a utility skill and has better interesting gameplay than both Divine Benison, Intervention and all the raid buffs
Unlike the likes of Intervention or raid buffs, the timing after the very first use literally does not matter, in which case your only optimal choice is to use it on CD, maximizing bonus MP ticks over time, because, unless your healers are MP-capped, there is no difference between MP ticks over time and effective MP ticks over time. -
07-16-2022, 09:09 AMPayotzMy argument is that if there is more tax to be put on the role as a result of added utility, it's just gonna be based on the fight design adding more responsibility to the role, which is what we want anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
The kit isn't going to be taxed. Damage isn't going to go down. It's literally going to be an expanded kit and damage output (even a little bit more because of addition of vuln ups into the jobs again) without any additional tax on the kit
The fact that you have fight mechanics designed around physical ranged using their brand new utility Is the "tax", which technically isn't even a tax, it's just more added responsibility for the role.
The role is already taxed on the fact that they have "utility" (that they don't even have). If they need to tax it more, it's not gonna be on the damage output or kit, it's gonna be on the fight design.
Does Raging Strikes affect the party and add more damage for 15 seconds to the party? If yes, it's utiltiy. If no, it's a personal cooldown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Is Gauss Barrel being put on give the party a damage buff? If yes, it's utility. If no, it's a personal cooldown.
Utility is literally anything that buffs the party. It's something you give to the party to either boost their movement speed, attack speed, mana regen, max hp, damage mitigation and yes, even damage. It's things that will help the party rather than only help yourself.
No you hold it for heavy heal checks that the new fights will have since the devs will be able to have the freedom to force the healers to go OOM, OR you hold it for when the healers die during prog.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
You don't hold it for jumps, because that's not the situation you need to hold it for. You hold it for other scenarios, like heavy heal checks that need more heavy mana GCD healing, or when the healers die to get their mana back up.
It will matter if there's phases in the fight that is designed for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
It will also matter for niche scenarios like the healers dying, but they need to gcd heal hardcore in the next 15 seconds, and their lucid is on cooldown.
If there's no tankbusters in raid, then you're gonna go ahead and press intervention on cooldown to mitigate auto attacks, and you'll be saying the same thing for Intervention as you are saying right now with Refresh.
Having Refresh available will make it so that the devs can add more mechanics that involve Refresh, just like how tank cooldowns are essentially made for tankbusters -
07-16-2022, 10:05 AMShurrikhanPersonal mobility tools? No utility to be had, despite situationally varied rDPS value, because it doesn't affect allies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
Having higher burst than any other job, thus better capitalizing on externally granted damage buffs? Not utility, because it doesn't target or spread to allies.
Let's say Adloquiem gains an effect that stores 50% of HP healed as damage to be dealt upon the allies' next attack. Because it's raw value, not potency, it doesn't scale with the recipient's gear or traits instead of yours. Because the value is snapshotted immediately, it cannot scale with the opponent's buffs instead of yours.
It would literally just be an additional half a Broil in damage, wasted if the fight ends before the target's next attack. Yet, by your reckoning, that would still be utility, because it's an effect that occurs through the ally, even if at virtually no dependence on or variance because of that ally, rather than SCH's utility there being that their nuke GCD heal refunds 150 potency (roughly half a filler GCD). (Hell, technically, Adloquiem itself would be utility already, as it generates a buff on the target.)
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At this point we're arguing semantics, but to my mind, if the "utility" does nothing that simply adding filler potency would do to identical effect across a majority of situations, it's not utility. To utility, it must have something to how it works, relative to more normal ways of granting equivalent rDPS, that causes its value to vary in different situations beyond merely teammate (in)competence (since any personal effect was already 100% dependent on competence -- your own).
Otherwise, it's just damage. Given ilvl equal to party average, having Battle Voice, for instance, behaves almost identically to additional Burst Shot potency. Both have their benefits potentially delayed by lengthy incoming downtime (Burst Shot's buff being wasted as you refresh DoTs instead, if necessary). Both are just as dependent on alignment and player competency. That doesn't mean I'd prefer for Battle Voice to be gone, but its effect is solely to...- move raw damage from your kit to that of others, only to be moved right back again on FFLogs,
- move that portion of damage from depending on your gear and competency to that of your 3-7 party members,
- reduce Bard's relative power in parties of fewer than 7 players, and
- faintly increase party punishment for any deaths, especially yours.
It offers no affordances, no advantages over a simple buff to filler potency. Unless things go poorly, at which point it comparatively underperforms, it scales no differently than added filler potency. It grants no further use, nor way to be used.
At that point, is that "utility," or simply a constraint?
Like what, though?Quote:
Having Refresh available will make it so that the devs can add more mechanics that involve Refresh, just like how tank cooldowns are essentially made for tankbusters
So, you've got your shiny CD here by which to counter mechanic X.
It also happens to have an effect identical to Lucid Dreaming, except halved over time (split two-ways / at half the frequency), such that for it to have any impact outside of the very worst of situations, Lucid Dreaming must now be insufficient, and the healer's ability to use AoEs/Rez/GCDs --i.e., to use their full kit-- purposely made dependent on having one or more Physical Ranged.
This, in turn, would turn SpS from being a BiS stat up to a certain GCD threshold and Piety a waste stat in general to now either that... or the exact opposite... turning all healer optimization on its head the moment one speedruns or goes without a Physical Ranged to again having one.
And what does that mechanic look like? Just saps partywide MP? Introduces healing checks well beyond the level of DSR (which can nonetheless be solo-healed with a majority of casts being spent on Malefic), in hopes of draining healer MP throug AoE spam, despite the devs repeated insistence that they will not be increasing relative healing requirements?
But, again, like what?Quote:
No you hold it for heavy heal checks that the new fights
You can solo-heal every fight in this game even without Refresh / bonus MP.
But the low modern healing requirements aren't simply a result of healers not having access to Refresh. It was a purposeful design decision, for better or (imo) worse, to make healing 'more accessible'. You will no more be able to try to force healers to go oom without a Bard under your suggested change than to force them to very low MP in a typical fight right now.Quote:
the devs will be able to have the freedom to force the healers to go OOM
Like, just do anything to change up that effect as not to be flat total MP restoration, over time, on CD and you'd be more nearly able to do what you want, but the Stormblood design for MP restoration --free and therefore largely impotent and inflexible-- is not it.
But even then, you have to deal with the fact that you cannot use Refresh to uniquely counter anything, and having it actually be important means holding hostage healers' ability to even use their kit (that is, beyond rez, which other jobs would be able to cover better than your MP bonuses ever could). That's not going to work out well in a design paradigm specifically looking to minimize healing requirements and the tax of DPS-Rezzes is flat and therefore kept miniscule. You'd probably have to readjust how MP itself works for this to work out. You cannot simply draw from a very differently designed era and attempt to plunk its value into modern XIV. (Not that Refresh would actually offer any gameplay to Physical Ranged jobs even then, only hold Healers' hostage in certain cases.)
P.S. Intervention has an opportunity cost, just as Physical Ranged jobs' previous ways of granting MP did. Unless incoming damage would be more than 30% auto-crits, you'd be better off Provoking and using Shelltron. It is an otherwise less efficient option used when it has the most reason to be used (as per ARR/HW Ballad/Promotion), rather than a flat value over time (as per Stormblood Refresh).Quote:
If there's no tankbusters in raid, then you're gonna go ahead and press intervention on cooldown to mitigate auto attacks, and you'll be saying the same thing for Intervention as you are saying right now with Refresh.
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07-16-2022, 10:31 AMJirah
For starters DNC/MCH are bar none the easiest jobs in the game so maybe that’s a reason, yea SMN is just as easy but at least they have a res to feel important. I’m not saying it needs a res but the game as piss easy as it is doesn’t need “babies first DPS”
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07-16-2022, 11:38 AMPayotzThat's right. Yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
A job can be brought for high personal dps with 0 utility (SAM/BLM), low dps overall, but very high utility (PLD), lower dps but for very specific utility (RDM/SMN/SCH/SGE), or for high burst, and high utility without having great sustained damage (NIN). A job can literally be just brought because you're comfortable with it really. It doesn't change the fact that Mug/Battle Litany/Expedient/Divine Benison/Passage of Arms are all utility.
Yeah that would be utility as well. That's correct. It's going to be as unweildly as your En Avant suggestion, and nobody would actually use it as seriously as other options, but yes that would also be utility. You're right. Utility is utility, even if it is bad utility, good utility or even unsusable utility (like Arm Graze and Head Graze).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I don't know why we're arguing semantics when it turns out that you do understand what I'm getting at. Utility is utility. It's stuff that makes the party burst more during their burst phases or during tight dps checks where you have to dump 3mil damage in total in under 60 seconds, it's mitigation where it stops you from being insta killed from full hp by an 80k raidwide, and it's movement speed buffs wherein it makes it easier to do a mechanic or position for a mechanic.
Whether or not it's bad utility, it's good utility, it's boring utility, it's engaging utility doesn't change the fact that it's all utility.
It allows you to pump out as much damage as you can during intermissions where you have limited uptime (like all Thordin Phase in DSR). Yes that's utility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
It allows you to complete a tight dps check that you need in phases, like DSR Rewind, yes that's utility.
It allows you to have a higher chance of Direct Hitting in the 30 seconds window of you having higher main stat because of pots, yes that's utility.
It helps the party, that's why it's utility.
Mechanics like BJ enrage, E12s enrage, E11's bleed after a raid wide, Nisi, a more damaging Mortal Vow, and literally Tumults back in E4S (our healers went OOM during prog for this one, so this is a really good one.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
A mechanic that applies more dot damage every raid wide, forcing the healers to gcd heal more than usual.
More outgoing raidwide damage that goes out constantly rather than every 30 seconds.
Hell, WoW's bursting affix in M+. Anduin's healer bubble check in Sepulcher. Even Grievous as an affix.
There's a lot of mechanics that's already there in FF14 that just needs to be either tuned higher or come out faster one after the other, and there are mechanics from their competitors that I believe is more than possible in FF14's fight design. More inconsistent damage coming out that doesn't give a fuck about your OGCD cooldowns would force healers to GCD more, because they simply have no more OGCDs left to spend after a while.
And even then, with only few more tune ups to the current fight design, Refresh still has a place as a recovery tool.
Rezzing as an RDM is not free mana, nor does mana actually come back when healers die.
Lucid Dreaming doesn't have a short cooldown, so in niche situations where they have no lucid dreaming AND the healers needs mana to GCD heal, Refresh has a place.
Hell, even if Lucid Dreaming is off cooldown and they used it, SE can make it so that Refresh stacks with Lucid Dreaming to have more mana available faster.
There's a lot of situations I can think of that Refresh is useful, but it just seems like you're hell bent into denying all of my situations as being feasible.
Yes because the fight design is tuned with the existence of Ranged Physicals in mind. Ranged Physicals are already obligatory in content now anyway, might as well have their reason being there not just be the 1%, but also the utility they give. Refresh is a part of that utility yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
No, because the only reason why SpS isn't maxed out is because faster GCDs will mean that your natural mp regen and lucid dreaming can't actually keep up with the amount of Glares you're going to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
So really, Refresh will just make it so that higher SpS will actually be viable, with extra Piety staying the same "prog stat" as always.
You've always run minimum Piety as a healer when you're not progging anyway, so yes Piety, in an optimized run, is a wasted stat, even today.
All speedrun groups already need a Physical Ranged because of that 1% party dps buff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
This won't change. Hell, you're already obligated to run a Physical Ranged, it's just the main reason why you wanna run one is because you give more dps to the party by merely existing. No raid buffs, no buttons to press, you don't even need to be alive to actually give the 1% buff.
You're already obligated to bring a Physical Ranged, might as well be obligated to get a Physical Ranged because of that AND its utility, re-establishing the Physical Ranged role as the utility dps.
I feel like we're running around in circles at this point.
There's a big misconception in the community that big party busters are actually heal checks. They're not. They're really just mitigation checks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
There's really very few heal checks in this game that actually makes the healers heal.
Akh Morn in P7, E12S enrage, and E4S Tumults come to mind as the only actual true heal checks in this game.
Most "heal checks" in this game are literally just "oh did you mitigate this? Oh no? Then you die."
The problem with the implementation of true heal checks in this game is that it's literally lined up with your cooldowns going off cooldown.
They're spaced perfectly apart from one another that you already have full mana, full OGCDs and cooldowns, and ready for the next true heal check.
You want more healing in this game? Bring those moments of heal checks closer. That's it.
If you Akh morn one after the other, then eventually you'll have even your AST go OOM, necessiating a Refresh.
In a world where healers are demanding more healing, that's all going to change. You already have a guaranteed Refresh cause you'll have a Ranged Physical in every party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Just like how tanks need extra cooldowns to stay alive for tankbusters, just like how the party needs shields from a shield healer to survive a party buster, just like how the party needs a Melee to Melee LB3 the boss for maximum damage.
You're already obligated to take a Ranged Physical because of an uncontrollabe 1% buff, just like you're obligated to get one melee, one caster, one healer and one tank because they all give a 1% dps buff. The only difference with Ranged Physicals is that Healers, Tanks, Melee and Casters bring more to the table, and Ranged Physicals don't.
Utility like Refresh, will be that extra something that Ranged Physicals can bring to the table, cementing their identity as Utility DPS.
If you're talking about something like Heavensward Cleric Stance, Accuracy and even Positionals not giving buffs if not followed, I would agree, but we're talking about Refresh, which is the same as a Combat Peloton, Palisade, Divine Benison, Shake it Off and current Tactician. I can definitely see Refresh fitting in with little to no resistance and needing only a few adjustments in fight design. Hell, kiting adds and CCing them is from ARR, literally all the way back to the first version of the game, and it can stil fit in the game now with some adjustments. That's just not a valid excuse to not reimplement Refresh in modern FFXIV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
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07-16-2022, 12:39 PMShurrikhanIt's literally not, though. Benefits to mobility, benefits to mitigation, and benefits to MP are all going to handle differently based on how much need there is for their given benefit. You may as well say that Benediction works just like Edge of Shadow; they are each differently constrained by situation. The problem is that any situation that causes bonus MP to be useful in modern XIV is going to be far more constrained than benefits to mobility or, especially, mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
Mitigation needs only save even a single heal, or prevent a single death, to have value. Mobility needs only do the same or grant further uptime. MP, on the other hand, requires that at least one MP user would otherwise have been locked out of a portion of their kit.
In the cases it matters, that's more akin to the fight silencing and pacifying all but a single sub-role, and that sub-role being uniquely able to cleanse the silence/pacify.
To bring fights to the point that, as you put it, "healers are forced to go OOM" if not for Refresh... is to bring baseline gameplay way down just so you can give it back via a Physical Ranged. That is holding gameplay hostage with no actual net benefit. At best, gameplay is returned to the new dependents, back to, at most, exactly what they had before. That is not good design.
Adjust how MP works, so it's not merely a bimodal between whether one is or is not, in effect, silenced and pacified, and then it can actually be decent.
Give the MP granting ability more nuance than just being "hit on CD" and at least Physical Ranged would be getting something out of the deal beyond feeding some sort of "Ahh, yes, their ability to perform basic functions comes at my pleasure," but that is not Refresh. Refresh was literally Lucid Dreaming, but at twice the CD and affecting all (effectively two) allies. (Holy Shock is a dps loss outside of its fixed Req, DRKs would instantly be made immune to MP restoration again, BLMs are already and always have been immune to it in Astral Fire, you're not going to time it to a single rare Umbral speed-transition tick, SMNs no longer care about MP beyond their rez meter, same as RDMs.)
Because I very much hoped your definition wasn't as uselessly conflatious as that.Quote:
I don't know why we're arguing semantics when it turns out that you do understand what I'm getting at.
Yes, which has nothing to do with there being Refresh or a lack thereof.Quote:
There's a big misconception in the community that big party busters are actually heal checks. They're not. They're really just mitigation checks.
There's really very few heal checks in this game that actually makes the healers heal.
Devs: "Fights shouldn't be won or lost over healers healing enough. They shouldn't need to use oGCDs atop GCDs outside of very rare scenarios. Yes, this may mean that MP goes largely untouched and that there's far less downtime, so to compensate we'll be further reducing the penalty of taking rez-capable DPS and nerfing maximum healer DPS."
RefreshBackPlease: "But, what if I gave healers more MP?"
...MP was never the bottleneck. It was made finnicky, unpolished, and largely irrelevant as a side-effect of other changes in design philosophy (i.e., to significantly reduce relative healing requirements and instead nerf healer dps into a balance around ~100% offensive uptime).
Then it's effectively passive and would exist only to worsen healer play in the offchance you want to play with 7 friends, none of whom want to play Physical Ranged.Quote:
You already have a guaranteed Refresh cause you'll have a Ranged Physical in every party.
The success of such utility is that "healers are still allowed to cast spells." If you force it to be necessary, it shouldn't be hard to imagine the impact that has on Ranger-less parties (or, alternatively, queue times, now that you've made them into a forced role of their own).
Quote:
If you Akh morn one after the other, then eventually you'll have even your AST go OOM, necessiating a Refresh.
- That there's little to no GCD healing required is not an oversight; it is by design. Fights were changed to match that design, with E12S and certain parts of DSR being considered the oversights in how much healing they still required.
- And if you did somehow necessitate Refresh, you've effectively only gone to "Take me or wipe automatically due to your healers being, effectively, silenced." Again, I must ask, how is that good design?
...I'm not arguing against Physical Ranged utility here.Quote:
Hell, kiting adds and CCing them is from ARR, literally all the way back to the first version of the game, and it can stil fit in the game now with some adjustments.
I've argued literally only against giving them raidwide Lucid Dreaming, as per Refresh. I'd likewise argue against giving them raidwide Invigorate and forcing everyone back onto TP if that were likewise done for the express purpose of making teams more dependent on Physical Ranged.
Or, at the very least, if you're going to have Physical Ranged give basic resource generation and force others into dependency on it, make it more interesting than Lucid Dreaming.
_________________
Let me put it more simply:
To argue that parties should be forced to take Physical Ranged by virtue of Refresh being made necessary requires that there is greater total enjoyment to be had from both...- there being a necessity for healers to cast MP-expensive spells and
- healers being to be unable to cast spells (not even abilities, though -- specifically spells) at all, past a point, that is then undone by Physical Ranged giving them it back to them via a Lucid Dreaming.
Why would that be fun overall?
Back when TP was a thing, it forced far greater constraints than any other sub-role, leading us down the path of Physical Ranged 'not needing to be fun, because, like healers, they're obligatory anyways' while simultaneously crippling melee if matchmaking screwed them over.
Why should healers now have access to their spells likewise purposely made finite, let alone in a way that'd cause explicitly them to be eventually unable to make heal checks (such as to fail certain fights on the mere basis of composition)?
__________
Imagine it for any other bimodal (can cast or can't cast) capacity the excess of which cannot be converted into rDPS. Wait, there isn't one.
Okay, well, let's take another instance of "Bring a Physical Ranged to be able to use your base function":
"You have X amount of movement you can do over a fight. Bring a Physical Ranged to extend it, hoping that they'll use their relevant skill on cooldown so you have the greatest amount of Movement Points over the course of the fight. No, it cannot increase your maximum movement speed, nor does it have any effect on movement abilities. It merely means that, once you run out, you will not be able to move until it has sufficiently regenerated."
And that's the problem with attaching that to MP without first adjusting how MP itself works (e.g., to be used by abilities and to a more granular impact, rather than just whether one can or cannot use a spell that has no real competition anyways for its given purpose). All you've done is tied an additional fetter to healers, just to give you something to do by taking it back off.
At that point, you'd not be adding Physical Ranged utility so much as simply worsening the base state, making it hostage. - That there's little to no GCD healing required is not an oversight; it is by design. Fights were changed to match that design, with E12S and certain parts of DSR being considered the oversights in how much healing they still required.
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07-16-2022, 01:18 PMPayotzSure, different utility applies to different situations. That sounds right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
No. Benefits to mobility and mitigation can be as "constraining" as bonus MP to modern XIV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Sure, but it can be constrained when you have sevaral different party busters that deal 100k hp unmitigated happen one after the other 10 seconds apart, or if there's 180k tank busters that you have to invuln and kitchen sink one after the other. Mitigation is already "constrained" in DSR. You miss a mit, and you die, especially in P6, and you know what that's okay, but it proves that Mitigation can be as constrained if the fight design is designed around it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Can be constrained by making sure that you have to pop sprint to go to a position OR to make it so that you have very limited wiggle room and that you have to run immediately to a spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
This is literally light and dark beacons at the start of Perfect Alexander and Wroth Flames in P6. Yes, mobility can also be constrained.
Just like how if you miss a mit you die, you don't move correctly you die, this is the punishment for not saving Refresh for when you need it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
You can make any one aspect a "constraint" in an encounter, it just depends on the fight design. It's not applicable to only Refresh, it's applicable to pretty much everything.
Just like Icelit Dragonsong and TEA esunas, Tank and Physical Ranged silences and even Tank and Melee stuns?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
It's design that revolves around a specific utility, so yes it is good design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
It's kinda like how you need a tanks cooldowns to mitigate raidwides.
How you need a shield healer to actually mitigate raidwides and tankbusters.
A caster to addle specific magical party busters or tank busters.
You are dependent on the utility dps for utility, and thus you take one of the jobs in the utility dps role for their utility.
Sounds good to me.
If this isn't FF14 I would agree that a bimodal function can actually work in this game, but unfortunately it doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
FF14 lives and dies on binary checks. You do the mechanic? You live. One of you fucks up the mechanic? You wipe.
You mitigate the tankbuster? Good you live. You don't mitigate the tank buster? Oh you die, and the next tankbuster is gonna cleave the party.
Like there's even times where if you make a mistake and live, but get hit with a damage down, it's all over. You'd have to wipe because you won't be able to do the dps check to see the next phase.
Hell even the basic AoE is binary. You sit in an AoE, you get one shot and die. In WoW, you sit in an AoE, you take significant amounts of damage, but there's no damage down or vuln up, and you simply get healed up by the healer.
They don't need to get something out of the deal. Divine Benison shield being broken isn't gonna give WHM a lily. Excog healing a tank from below 25% hp isn't gonna give SCH a proc that guarantees crits for 5 seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Refresh is fine it makes sure you actually don't wipe and clear the content. You're contributing to the clear that's not the 1% raid dps buff that everyone is already contributing by existing, and that's more than enough payback to play a utility dps.
Refresh can be a solution to it. Requiring more GCD healing means more chances of the healers going OOM, which is alleviated by the fact that Refresh is a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
If you want more GCD healing to happen, then there needs to be more sources of mana regeneration that will alleviate OOM.
Enter, Refresh.
Also this is funny:
You have this scenario, when I literally offered you a solution in the last post:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
What part of "you're already obligated to play physical ranged today" do you not understand?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I wanna play with my 7 friends but none of them wanna play Tank. Boo hoo.
I wanna play with my 7 friends but none of them wanna play Healer. Boo hoo.
I wanna play with my 7 friends but none of them wanna play Melee. Boo Hoo.
I wanna play with my 7 friends but none of them wanna play Caster Boo Hoo.
I wanna play with my 7 friends but none of them wanna play Physical Ranged. Boo Hoo.
What are you doing trying to clear an on patch minimum ilvl Savage raid with no echo Week 1 with 7 DPS and a PLD?
Casual content that's has no healing, mitigation and dps check is that way. Unsynced Savage Raids with Echo are at the end of the hallway.
Leading for healers to actually press their Glare button 70% of the time rather than their heal button.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Healers now have nothing to do. Hell you can solo heal with no Refresh and just lucid because of that design.
Again, want more healing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
You. Are. Already. Obligated. To. Play. Physical. Ranged. Today. Because. Of. The. 1%. Party. DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
The. DPS. Checks. In. High. End. Raids. Are. Tuned. Around. That. 1%. Party. Dps. Buff.
So nothing will change. You're still obligated to bring a Physical Ranged here. Only this time, you bring them because of a 1% Party DPS buff AND their utility.
Cementing their identity as the Utility DPS. Making them bring more than one thing to the table.
Just like the tanks, and their ability to well tank.
Just like the healers, and their ability to well heal.
Just like the casters, and their ability to LB3 or for addle, raise or good ranged damage.
Just like the melee, and their ability to LB3, or for Feint, and good melee damage.
We are all already dependent on Physical Ranged. That's the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
We can't possibly be even more dependent on Physical Ranged, because we NEED Physical Ranged in High End Content because the dps checks are tuned with it in mind.
Man, I really feel like I'm just repeating my point here over and over again. -
07-16-2022, 01:40 PMShurrikhanNo. We are not. We are mildly, mildly incentivized to take at least one Physical Ranged, just as per Melee and Casters, so that the devs can pretend the roles are more closely balanced. We are not dependent on having at least one of each.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
Your "solution" was to increasing healing requirements, something the devs have explicitly said they will not do.Quote:
You have this scenario, when I literally offered you a solution in the last post:
Moving healing checks "closer" together to require more healing output from healers is still increasing healing requirements. There's no subtle loophole in the devs wanting to make the healing part of playing healers easier.
I do. But I'm not the devs, who don't.Quote:
Again, want more healing?
1% damage bonus (that may or may not even be a net increase to party throughput give the better alternatives).Quote:
You. Are. Already. Obligated. To. Play. Physical. Ranged. Today. Because. Of. The. 1%. Party. DPS.
Automatic party wipe in most serious content upon reaching X heal-check.Vs.
Do those... seem equivalent to you?
Imagine what you're asking for from any of the either sub-roles:- Take at least one Melee or lose access to A after X time. In practice, this means you will eventually, inevitably wipe for most Savage fights.
- Take at least one Caster or lose access to B after X time. In practice, this means you will eventually, inevitably wipe for most Savage fights.
So, per your earlier comments...Quote:
We can't possibly be even more dependent on Physical Ranged, because we NEED Physical Ranged in High End Content because the dps checks are tuned with it in mind.
yet, somehow... at the same time...'tight parity doesn't matter because any composition can clear anything anyways'...
Tell me, how do those two things go together?most parties will clear or wipe on the basis of the 1% Damage bonus of having taken a Physical Ranged (despite that being far less, or even a net negative, in practice, given how much more strongly other jobs will perform).
-
07-16-2022, 01:59 PMPayotzThey've also said that they're never gonna go back to 4.0 design, where Ranged Physicals have utility, the very thing we want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
But that doesn't stop us from posting our feedback that we want that.
Just like how healers are demanding either more dps buttons or more healing requirements.
When we're already required to take a Physical Ranged, it's not the former OR the latter, it's former AND the latter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Tell me you don't do High End Content without telling me you don't do High End Content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
High End Content has always been tuned against the 1% damage bonus. It IS that huge because it's literally a party buff that's present at -ALL- times.
It's literally an extra 242k damage in P4S P2 for literally just existing. It's literally an EXTRA melee LB3.. for no reason other than having a Physical Ranged in the party. It's literally an extra percent on the boss' hp bar GONE for having a Ranged Physical be in the party in an evironment where people wipe to 0.1% hp often at enrage.
OF COURSE it's going to be tuned around it.
Any job within a single role can clear content yes. You just have to bring every role, just like you have to bring a tank, a healer, a melee dps, a ranged physical and a acaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I didn't say any composition. I said every job within a role can clear. Don't put words in my mouth.
Why are you being this disingenous? What's next in the argument? You should be able to clear Savage Content with all tanks?
I need to reply to your EDITS:
Yes that is the case. You don't have access to Melee LB 3 and its 1% party dps if you don't have a Melee.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Yes that is the case. You don't have access to Addle and the 1% damage bonus if you don't have a caster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
All these scenarios are already TRUE in the game for High End Content, especially in an Ultimate.
Except... Mana is still here, and it's still used by casters. So why not abuse that fact by adding more utility to ranged physicals?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Like this whole conversation started with me suggesting it as a recovery button, then you replied that there's no reason to press it, so I added a reason to press it, now you're screaming because now there's a reason to press it, so I go back to suggesting it as a recovery button, and then you're going back to it being a boring button.
You're really hell bent against this idea when I've already proven that it can work, that there are solid scenarios where it can work. Stop being disingenuous. -
07-16-2022, 02:12 PMShurrikhanYou know what else does that in P4S? The players' own ~8% rDPS increase for having taken, say, a BLM instead of a Physical Ranged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
"Ahh, but there are 8 people, so it's the same!" Except, each DPS makes up more than an 8th the total damage. A typical BLM in a conventional 2-tank, 2 healer 1 melee, 1 ranged, 1 caster, 1 any party will be doing nearer to 16% of the whole.
0.16 * .8 > .01.
The underperformance of Physical Ranged is largely shored up by the 1% damage increase, yes, but it's certainly not enough to make Physical Ranged obligatory.
Addle does no more mitigation than is supplied by the +/-5% attached to every damage event.Quote:
<You'd already be guaranteed to wipe without Addle and the 1% Caster buff>
But here, since Addle was enough to save people from an otherwise guaranteed wipe, I should see, at least once where Addle was used, people surviving by a hair within the various Ultimate logs, no?Wait... no, that... isn't happening. No non-tank ever dropped below 15% from raidwide damage. It's not even saving a tank, who only drop below 25% during invulns. Nor sparing a heal, for that matter.
And... they're clearing with over a minute to spare. Hmm. Odd, that.The problem is wanting to hold other players' kit access hostage by wanting utility-whose-only-benefit-is-sustained-kit-access now, when there is no context by which it'd be anything more than removing X to let someone else give it back. Which, if feedback since Stormblood hadn't made clear, is not a popular design choice.Quote:
They've also said that they're never gonna go back to 4.0 design, where Ranged Physicals have utility, the very thing we want.
But that doesn't stop us from posting our feedback that we want that.
Just like how healers are demanding either more dps buttons or more healing requirements.
- Do I want more Physical Ranged utility? Absolutely.
- Do I want more to do as a tank? Absolutely.
- Do I want higher healing requirements? Absolutely.
Put MP costs on healing abilities, have the potency and costs of MP spenders scale with current %MP, and voila, now Rangers' granting MP no longer requires healers to otherwise lose access to their spells after X time for it to have value, because there is actually something available for trade, rather than just "Can cast / Can't cast."
From there you have an actual context where MP utility feels like a bonus, rather than a fetter purposely added just to be removed again (purposely desyncing all raid damage from healer cooldowns or by whatever other means forcing healers to need it or face inevitable wipes because it constrains their literal ability to cast spells at all).
Your "added a reason to press it" required that every serious fight in the game be changed to realign damage intervals to make healers' abilities unusable over heal checks... just to further tax MP via AoE spells... just to then make Ranged more obligatory for being able to give that MP back. You are requiring an absurd number of hoops there just to, ultimately, try to make healing dependent on Physical Ranged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
And yet, at the end of all that, that dependence doesn't add a mechanic beyond your hitting your raidwide Lucid Dreaming on CD. -
07-16-2022, 03:06 PMShurrikhan
For context, my hopes for Physical Ranged:
- Give them back meaningful mechanics in their rotations, rather than solely the general mechanics of hitting the glowing button and pooling charges (atop, at best, choosing which song order to be locked to from then out).
- Give them distinct forms of utility --here meaning something with variable value and not directly exchangeable to rDPS / moving numbers out and back again-- that reward timing and, via the kit's context, add additional depth to positioning and/or rotation. Give the most situational of that utility an opportunity cost itself, rather than taxing the kit itself in all fights for the few fights in which it's particularly useful.
- Improve their rDPS (by 4-6%, depending on the average value of the utility added above). Roles should not be taken only for their 1% Damage bonus. If we're still somehow following the "hypermobility tax," then, screw it, give Physical Ranged the occasional cast and or melee skill, inverse to the likes of BLM's or NIN's 'occasional instant' or 'occasional loss-less ranged attack', and give Physical Ranged a little bit more throughput to work with/from if they optimize it.
- Dive deeper into core themes of song, dance, and tech/construction, building up from that instead of attempting to just meet a shared template or checklist through reskinned equivalents.
Do not:- Relegate added utility solely to Role Actions.
- Set them up as the ST, 2-target, and AoE versions of each other. If they are to be advantaged in a given fight, let that be due to the sum of their finer utilities.
- Give them utility that would require the removal of functions or internal synergy from others (e.g., Lucid Dreaming or Internal Release being turned into Refresh or Devilment, respectively). Well, too late for that last one.
- Give them back meaningful mechanics in their rotations, rather than solely the general mechanics of hitting the glowing button and pooling charges (atop, at best, choosing which song order to be locked to from then out).
-
07-16-2022, 03:50 PMPayotzAlright I just went ahead and fact checked on the Balance and other sources for you to really make sure that I know what I'm talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Week 5 you can just run whatever you want, which makes sense because everyone has full gear, and there's more vit and stats going around to trivialize any dps check and any damage going out. Sure it's whatever. You can literally go in with One Tank, One Healer, and 6 dps and it wouldn't really matter at that point.
But if you don't have gear in Savage and in DSR, you can't just drop the Physical Ranged because Party Bonus is both 1% DPS AND 1% HP, meaning that's more of a risk to dying to a high roll raid wide even under mitigation.
Two BLMs that is perfectly optimized will not beat a Physical Ranged bonus, but they get extremely close, so yes technically they beat the dps check with two BLMS. HOWEVER, that's if they're playing perfect, which is not 100% of the time, and also extremely fight dependent.
The problem with this approach is that you will still die to raidwides without that 1% hp (which is correct as there are times where I die to 500 hp overkill during a raidwide in DSR) if you aren't overgearing the content. Which means that even though you can still get very close (but not surpass) the physical ranged +1% party bonus, you'll still have to drop the 1% hp and the 10% party mitigation that Physical Ranged has. You will also get penalized for having two of the same jobs for LB generation, meaning you'll lose an LB1 at the end of the fight, which is also important for the dps check.
So yes, the fights are still tuned to have all 5% Party Bonus (and thus need a Physical Ranged), not just because of the dps check, but also because of the raid wides, party busters and mitigation checks and the fact that it doesn't only increase dps, it also increases hp.
THIS IS NOT A MILD INCENTIVE,
If this is some mild incentivize, then having 2 tanks and 2 healers is a mild incentive.
Calling this a mild incentive is like assuming that everyone can solo heal or solo tank an Ultimate, when even if you technically can, it's still clearly designed for two tanks and two healers.
Addle does 10% mitigation to magical damage. That extra 5% to mitigation counts in a non overgeared scenario, just like the Party Bonus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
In fact, if you over mitigate a raidwide, you won't have another cooldown for the next raid wide, and the next one and the next one.
That's why you keep a mitigation sheet, so you don't over mitigate it.
(For context, the lowest party member's max hp is 56k (with a 5% Party Bonus) )Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
You mean stuff like Ultimate End in DSR, where even with Reprisal, Sacred Soil, Addle, and Shields it still deals 51k damage?
Or do you mean stuff like Ancient Quaga, where even with Shields, Soil, Dark Missionary, Reprisal and Addle, it still deals 51k?
Let's go to P6.
Or maybe you mean Hallowed Plume, where even with Bloodwhetting, Adlo, Divine Benison, and Aquaveil, it deals 56k damage on a tank?
Or maybe even just Akh Morn, where even with Seraph shields, Dark Missionary, Addle, Expedient, and Reprisal it deals 20k damage/ per second for 4 straight blasts?
The moment you miss a mitigation for any one of these skills, hell even if you don't have food buff on for the vitality buff, you'll actually die and wipe the group.
So it's extremely disingenous to say that mitigation is not that tight.
Oh cool, what's the comp? Is that with a physical ranged 1% Party bonus, or is it double BLM?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
And what fight is it? Are they overgeared or minimum ilvl?
This... is literally what they did when they revamped max mana to only be 10k.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
That's why they homogenized MP. This is literally that we have right now.
Which is why I said that it should be a recovery option instead, but again, you wanted there to be a reason for pressing it which brings me to the next point:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Realigning damage intervals will go ahead and give healers something more to heal yes, which is literally what they're looking for. Ranged are already obligatory because of the Party Bonus, and the only way to actually get away from that obligatory Party Bonus is to literally be overgeared, which you can literally drop a healer and a tank in a party and do whatever if you're overgeared.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
The healers want more to heal, so yes give them something to heal. If MP is gonna be the issue blocking the devs from giving them more to heal, then solve it by literally giving Ranged Physicals more of a reason to be in the party, considering they've been tuning the fights with Physical Ranged in mind anyway.
If this is not good enough, then literally turn Refresh back into a recovery button, but again we're going to go back into the discussion of "yeah this is boring as fuck, make it have a purpose", which is exactly what this line is:
As for your next post:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I agree with almost everything in what you said in the Do portion however:
1. Relegating added utility to Role Actions will make it so that every job in the ROLE will be able to clear content, and thus is needed. The devs will be able to go ahead and design fights with role actions in mind because again, they're goal is to go ahead and Make sure that every job in a role can clear any content . Not adding utility to the role will just mean it won't get used in the fight, just like Fluid Aura, and Repose. If you DO design fights around the utility that a specific JOB in the ROLE, then you will be FORCED to play that job in that fight, which is not what we're looking for
2. Setting them up as Single Target, 2-Target and AoE version will go ahead and incentivize the mastery of the role but not require it, which is what we want. You wanna be optimal? Go ahead, and pick the job depending on the encounter type of the fight. Like I said, this is literally what the jobs design for the Role is right now , and this is just going to boost that distinction across the jobs in the role
3. It's not even necessary to require the removal of function, it can just be a supplement, which is literally what my first proposal for Refresh is. It's just a supplement to niche scenarios where the healers died, or the caster died, or the RDM needs to rapid rez people in a prog scenario. This is the best option if we don't want this button to be mandatory, but if we want more reasons to press this button "to make it interesting", then we're gonna go ahead and make the healers have the risk to go OOM, or close to it. -
07-16-2022, 05:40 PMShurrikhanYes, as player skill decreases, so too does the rDPS benefit of their taking a higher performing of over simply going for the +1% Damage bonus. For P4S, the example by which you prompted the comparison, that'd be somewhere between the 75th and 50th percentile. Above that, taking the extra BLM, NIN, or DRG is worth more slightly rDPS to your party. All still within a range as easily produced by your party, on average over the fight, critting slightly more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
Given that, it seems more fitting to say that taking a Physical Ranged is merely incentivized (and only conditionally incentivized at all for pure rDPS), not --as you put it-- "required," "obligatory," or "forced."
Melee is about the closest we get to a hard requirement in the average Extreme or Savage, and only if the enrage itself is quite tight, due to the added 33% LB efficiency in single-target. But, it also has almost double the number of jobs for that very reason; it was never split into multiple functional sub-roles (despite having the greatest number of nominal sub-roles, Scouting, Striking, and Maiming), meaning you can take whatever you please for the, typically, two slots.
I'm aware. +/-5% is a range of 10%. A range of 5% would be just +/-2.5%.Quote:
Addle does 10% mitigation to magical damage.
Your most immediate example before my quote was Ultimate, so I checked Ultimate -- additionally because it uses fixed HP values instead of becoming increasingly easier with gear. I used a random 1-300 number generator, picked 7 samples, and looked through them. At no point following Addle casts did anyone's HP dip below 15% HP (or any non-tank, throughout the whole fight). For Addle itself to have made that difference, the unmitigated hit, if magical, would have to do more than 150% a non-tank's HP; if physical, more than 300% a non-tank's HP.Quote:
So it's extremely disingenous to say that mitigation is not that tight.
I realize now I had an oversight there, in that I should have also looked for the effect of the added 1% HP (or the effect of losing 1.01% HP), but even adding that in, it still wouldn't indicate that the two together uniquely caused the party's survival in any damage event.
My point was that those are going to be two separate steps. If you think that healers having more to heal is a good thing, then I fully agree.Quote:
Realigning damage intervals will go ahead and give healers something more to heal yes, which is literally what they're looking for.
I just noted that realigning damage intervals such that there's greater relative healing requirements isn't going to somehow avert, as if through subtle loophole, the devs' refusal to increase relative healing requirements (damage intake relative to free healing within healer kits). Nor would I like to see that done just to provide Physical Ranged with more to do. If that can open up further utility options to be more interesting and useful, great, but the requisite change needs to be a good thing in itself if you're to affect other roles just to prop up the target role.
No, that's not what I'm referring to at all. Not a single healing ability (oGCD) has an MP costs, so I'm not sure when they "did" that. And by "scaling with %MP," I'm referring to the idea that, when you have less %MP, spells both do less and cost (a greater amount) less. In that way, it's not a mere survival mechanic, and as a healer, there's far more to game out of MP interactions/economy.Quote:
This... is literally what they did when they revamped max mana to only be 10k.
_________________
At present, there are only two things MP can produce: the ability to cast, or the inability to cast. It's purely bimodal. You will never touch Cure, regardless, so there's not even a matter of saving MP by using less expensive spells. As such, the fight will require X, and you will give it X, and you will either have Piety enough (which is slightly countered by taking more SpS), or not. The amount of MP restored by Refresh is far less than the MP you save, moreover, by having a RDM or SMN rez, if that's ever needed (since they have otherwise infinite MP --i.e., no opportunity cost-- and can support almost a Rez per minute over time).
As such Refresh/MassDreaming can only really reduce the Piety required, such that now one's BiS varies with how many Physical Ranged there are and how nearly on cooldown they press their Refresh buttons after the first scheduled use. That in turn means healers are incentivized to stat differently based on others' performance, which... as someone who played Melee/Tanks under old Army's/Tactician, I can honestly say does not feel great.
So you've got an "emergency tool" that's worth far less for emergencies than just taking an extra SMN or RDM, but which also messes with Healer gearing in the few fights it'd affect. All while the skill itself is best used, after first activation, identically to Lucid Dreaming (best hit on CD). That seems really... lackluster, to say the least.
You can say that's just because of context, but that's a very involved context to mess with. And it would probably require changes to both healing and to how MP works in order to invigorate that.
If you made it so MP economy was an actual mechanic for healer, likely by both giving more to heal and, especially, polishing the MP system and its costs, then there's far more for a Refresh effect to play into.
I'd just still, even at that point, prefer it be something over which Physical Ranged had fine control, instead of just an on-CD like Refresh (Lucid-Dreaming-but-raidwide-at-double-the-cooldown).
I don't think you need to specifically make Ranged so fixedly required/needed. Not every utility needs to be "use X or wipe." I prefer that they feel like advantages for use rather than hard survival conditions (at which point those utilities begin to feel more like solely counter-buttons or compositional checks).Quote:
1. Relegating added utility to Role Actions will make it so that every job in the ROLE will be able to clear content, and thus is needed.
See, I still don't get how you can say that Bard is already required, right now, over the potential rDPS buff of taking a Physical Ranged despite its jobs' underperformance, yet say that taking a likely more significant gap in performance on a fight-specific basis (BRD-fight, MCH-fight, DNC-fight) somehow wouldn't require the advantaged job. The advantage would have to then be so tiny that, prior to 6.1, it'd have practically been the difference of just a Namikiri crit.Quote:
2. Setting them up as Single Target, 2-Target and AoE version will go ahead and incentivize the mastery of the role but not require it, which is what we want.
You know what, fair enough. Within current contexts, I'm not a fan of its likely impact, and would much rather the missing budget go to other forms of utility and Physical Rangeds' more direct rDPS than to Refresh, but at least then it'd just be the most typically LB-advantaged role (who more than makes up for it) and BLM who get the short stick. That would be a modest improvement over basically untaxed Rez-capable casters just having by far the most utility (by which, again, I'm just referring to highly situationally-varied and therefore difficult-to-predict rDPS value, as opposed to that which just shuffles numbers around). (Granted, I'd prefer RDM and SMN both had rDPS slightly nearer BLM but then opportunity cost on their rezzes. Just as I'd prefer opportunity costs on Refresh but higher Physical Ranged rDPS.)Quote:
3. It's not even necessary to require the removal of function, it can just be a supplement
-
08-02-2022, 07:27 PMdarkdyllonas an RDM main generally if i die i'll lose an massive chunk of DPS due to not having my melee combo anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolsykol
for example in DSR, i generally get my melee combo when Thordan returns at the 1st trio, but if someone misses their mitigation or i get less because of bad rolls and die, that's an melee combo down the drain, which is a lot.
granted it's just that missed, but that's over 50 mana in both black and white gone, down the drain and that takes nearly the entire phase to get back.
an death in general for most jobs means you'll have to run recovery for the rest of the encounter, be it because your songs are miss aligned, or you lose all your resources. -
08-02-2022, 09:26 PMgeorge357ranged jobs
all my main jobs are ranged and i for one like playing them.
-
08-03-2022, 04:29 PMTetsujin
MCH is the only ranged class I can opine about, but at least when it comes to it, I feel like all the execution and nuance has been taken out and replaced by mindless button mashing. Really, that simple. It's got high APM without any thought.
I realize old MCH had ping issues and that people could find it very difficult if not outright impossible to fit everything into wildfire. Instead of fixing that, making Wildfire a stack type of debuff, or anything else, MCH was instead stripped of so much. Stance dancing, ammo system, its RNG manipulation, the turret features were scraped to the point turret/automaton queen is almost a DoT you can see, DoTs themsleves, any real AoE optimization, a lot of utility, headshot, I mean. Whew. That's off the top of my head! And for what? For it to supposedly be a selfish DPS which amusingly enough had worse damage than its peers last time I was subbed? Hope they fixed that at least.
And yes, people complained about BRD casting but when this happened in HW, that was when the MCH identity was made and thus the devs should have kept this aspect of its gameplay going forward while BRD returned to being the lighter more mobile ranged class. For heaven's sake, it's a class with guns and heavy weaponry. Machinist WAS a mix of both things ultimately, similar to Samurai with their Iaijutsu thanks to the stance system. Skilled players, especially in raids, would change it up on the fly. It was a rich job with demanding execution, forethought, and depth, but INCREDIBLY rewarding. 3.4 and 3.5 MCH was a dream if you had the ping.
Now it's as simple as can be, I don't even think there's any real weaving. Lots of mashing so you feel busy. It's bland and boring, and as I hear it BRD's interactivity with DoTs, RNG, and more has been striped as well. -
08-03-2022, 05:06 PMCurisu
Wait, what is this long discussion about?
Not everyone has to like every job/role.
I know enough people who like to play phys ranged.
There is no phys range shortage in any content.
The 1 each roles buff is just really important in week one savage, ultimates and when a LB is needed.
I would say that phys ranged are in a good spot right now.
You have different playstyles for them and everyone is viable in any content. -
08-03-2022, 05:42 PMSupersnow845Physical ranged is basically being carried by its contribution to the 5% role buff, the physical range have a massive damage tax that never actually gets utilised because it’s way too easy to get uptime as a melee, MCH is the selfish class yet does the worst damage of the 3, BRD lost half its identity when the removed interaction with DOT’s and DNC is just…..fineQuote:
Originally Posted by Curisu
If there wasn’t a role bonus then double caster double melee or double melee BLM caster would become the meta comp, phys ranged just bring nothing to the table right now -
08-03-2022, 05:52 PMMortexAt least dancer buffs the actual good dps in the group. One of the only good contributing stuff you do next to samba and technical finish lasting 20 second and can be pre danced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
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08-03-2022, 06:49 PMCKNovelThey're in the worst spot. To be fair, they're in the "Bad but just good enough so that there is at least 1 ranged in each group"Quote:
Originally Posted by Curisu
Damage wise, they're the lowest and since 2 of them are rDPS based and low personal damage, they have terrible synergy between each other.
MCH is especially in a terrible spot since it only has 2 natural aoes, being Ricochet and Chain Saw.
Ricochet needs the targets to be stacked and Chain Saw has a too severe fall off. DNC&BRD have the same fall off but they also have multiple line aoes.
MCH being gauge based also hurts the job. DSR can easily have 1 full minute of downtime for a lot of mechanics. During this minute, MCH doesn't build gauges and loose 2-3 Drills and potentially 1 Air Anchor.
BRD cannot play its song during downtime, which, correct me if I'm wrong, hurts Radiant Finale.
Mobility wise, we're in a "meta" where mobility is overrated, complex mechanic don't have uptime for anyone and bosses hitbox are adjusted for melee uptime. We're also in an expansion where SMN has a ranged mobility and BLM, with the right level of skill, can be more mobile than MCH.
DNC has 3 charges of En Avant but will mostly sit at 3 charges.
Utility wise, they're near bottom. All MCH brings is Tactician which is also brought by BRD and DNC and it also doesn't stack, making the ranged role even more anti-synergy.
To compare all DPS:
MCH has nothing, not even a personal shield.
BRD has Nature's Minne (a good skill paired with SCH) and Warden's Paen which has seen a use in TEA and nothing else since.
DNC shines a little bit more with Cure Waltz and Improvisation
SMN has a personal shield, a party hot (though unreliable), Rekindle and Resurrection.
RDM has magick barrier and res.
BLM has a personal barrier.
And they all share Addle.
All melees have at least a personal mitigation except DRG and they all share Feint/Bloodbath.
So much for "Support DPS". If it wasn't for that 1% bonus, a lot of PF would be closed to physical ranged.
Many ultimate groups would simply not have any ranged. -
08-03-2022, 07:26 PMCurisu
I'm aware of that, but I still don't see the problem.
Maybe MCH has a lower playerbase but there are enough people who like to play BRD or DNC.
And when I look into the static finder discord, then they are looking for all kind of jobs.
It would be a problem when no one wants to play them or group's start to exclude these jobs in PF.
But no one is doing that, therefore the Phys ranged are in a okayish spot.
If you personally think that phys ranged is not in a good spot, then don't take them with you. -
08-03-2022, 07:33 PMSupersnow845That’s our entire point they are still taken because of the role bonus not because people actually want what the phys ranged offerQuote:
Originally Posted by Curisu
If a time is being held up by PF requirement then it’s a flawed role, it’s why the healers still exist despite being absolute hot garbage -
08-03-2022, 07:54 PMCurisu
Well, people want something that the phys ranged offers.
The role bonus. For the same reason you take caster or melees with you.
If it would not be so important, then they might go with double/double roles.
And I don't know a single phys ranged player who felt forced to play that role.
The gameplay of the phys ranged are good enough that people want to play them and that there is no shortage of these players.
If we talk about raw DMG output then they might need a small buff, at least the MCH needs that.
But DMG is not really that important.
Like, i play PLD and don't complain about being the lowest DMG tank because I do not get excluded anywhere and I really enjoy the gameplay of that class. -
08-03-2022, 07:57 PMSupersnow845Well WAR has the lowest damage of the tanks and damage is literally king in this game, nothing matters relative to one’s DPS contribution so since the phys ranged really don’t compensate for their lower damage they are in a bad spot, like I said you can’t hold a role up because of the role bonusQuote:
Originally Posted by Curisu
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08-03-2022, 08:04 PMCarin-EriThat's really very subjective. I love Bard - played the entire MSQ as one. Swapped to RDM recently, but do - more often than not - swap back to Bard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Selvokaz
And whilst am not great at it, I do nonetheless really enjoy it and really do get an odd sense of satisfaction when Blast Arrow procs and hits for high (looking) numbers. -
08-03-2022, 08:26 PMCurisuOhh, so it's just about DMG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supersnow845
I have to tell you something important.
Dmg does not matter that much.
Fights are created with the phys ranged DPS in mind.
Any standard composition can clear every fight.
Especially after the first week when you have one more higher gear piece.
And for the new Ultimate... Well i guess the melees need to nerfed as they appear to be far stronger then the phy and magic ranged.
While caster and ranges are on paar with each other, (MCH needs a small buff), you have 4 melees above the BLM DMG.
Only Reaper seems to be fine because he is in-between the caster/ranges. -
08-03-2022, 08:52 PMSupersnow845If damage doesn’t matter much then I’d absolutely love to see what you think actually does matter a lot (it certainly can’t be fun because square ripped that out in about 5.0)Quote:
Originally Posted by Curisu
And no fights aren’t created with physical ranged in mind, they are created in general roughly with 2 melee 2 ranged, but the ranged can easily be both be casters
DSR is not a good representation of the balance of the jobs because it heavily biases jobs that can pool their burst but don’t have to build it, it’s why DRG and DNC over perform and RPR and MCH underperform, jobs are mostly balanced around 100% uptime savage encounters and they 100% don’t need physical ranged other than the 5% role bonus, if that wasn’t there party comp would 100% be locked to 2 melees, a third melee or BLM and a caster, casters bring actual useful utility -
08-03-2022, 09:38 PMCKNovelI've seen this argument again and again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curisu
I'll ask you one important question:
If damage does not matter that much, then there is no problem with having physical ranged at the level of melee DPS, right?
If damage does not matter that much, then there is no problem with having BLM doing less damage than SMN, right ?
"Damage doesn't matter" is fallacious. On top of that, MCH and BRD suffers from game mechanics and their very low utility. DNC is fine because it brings a lot of unique mitigation. -
08-03-2022, 09:54 PMCurisu
If the hardest and most current fight who's dmg check won't be easier with due to gear is not representative, what else is?
Beside that, the savage dmg standing does not look much different.
Melees on top and only Smn and DNC swapped places.
Also, it's up to you what you think is "fun".
I definitely have fun with the current fights and classes.
Any many other too.
I don't know and tbh, i also don't care.Quote:
Originally Posted by CKNovel
The gameplay and ascetic of a class is more important to me then the dmg number.
And as long everything is viable to play and nothing gets excluded by the community, I would call the balancing a success.
Being mechanically good and know how to play the class is more important then the potential max number that class could do. -
08-03-2022, 11:34 PMCKNovelI used to think like that when playing MCH in ShB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Curisu
Until I realized all I could do was improving my DPS, my job was essentially useless to the group.
Back in Stormblood, the job was annoying to play and in the shadow of the BRD. But it had a very good utility. Being a support DPS with guns was what attracted me first to the job.
Now the job having too much automated tool and the lowest impact in all the group turned me away from the job.
I stopped playing ranged and went tank for EW, and I feel much more useful to the group. I hope this is temporary and that I will be able to enjoy MCH again.
I still love MCH aesthetic but mechanically it needs some tweaks and balance wise it doesn't feel impactful to the team. -
08-06-2022, 08:28 AMSilverSkyway
I still find rdps more fun to play.
I just got my first melee to max. Sam. I hate it. Not fun. I don't like the rotation or opener. I went back to Bard whom I don't even like but different hate then to sam. Bard more fun to play in pve AND pvp then sam.
Truthfully. If Mch could use a bow I'll play that over Bard. Even Damage was 50% lower then all jobs. I love Mch rotation but hate using a gun. -
08-11-2022, 06:56 PMSindal
Bard is the first dps I swap to from my list so I don't have issues here. This iteration of bard is my favorite one so far
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08-11-2022, 07:19 PMFlashy
I used to play DNC in ShB before I switched to SAM so I can't speak for the current state of it, but I think just being ranged in general can get boring. I enjoyed the 2 minute burst window (I don't like how this became the standard in Endwalker) but everything outside of that felt very slow unless you just got huge amounts of esprit and feathers out of nowhere with good rng.
I swapped over to melee with more rigid rotations and having moments where keeping uptime can be a near-death experience is always fun for me and I feel like I'm more involved with the target I'm fighting
It's not the role for me, but I do know people that can enjoy playing the jobs as their mains -
08-23-2022, 03:32 PMJirah
Ya know, I thought it was the massive hyperbole of “my numbers are low indefinitely” but Ignoring that (you should only care if your doing the 5 trials, and even then it’s not so low to cause a rift, unless your playing with jerks ) and stating they aren’t fun period.
BRD is the brightest of the 3, watching dots, playing OGCD wack-a-mole spray some Minne and Paeon here and there is ok, yes it needs work but better than the other two
DNC was born to be boring and simple so enough said
MCH was born to be BRD Cast-cousin in HW, got a side identity in SB and got heavily lobotomized in SHB now it’s a the same lobotomized mess that some idiots thought would talk again forgetting the fact it got freaking lobotomized and the only way it’ll live again is through a rework. Also as a ranged “support” the only support it can get is being someones potential tax right off due to it being handicapped. This job doesn’t need help it needs the lethal injection! Kill, stuff it mount it as a cautionary tale and rework the crap out of it -
08-23-2022, 03:34 PMJirahI like BRD but it’s got baggage, mostly the support feels off key, Soul voice feels taked on and dots loosing its lusterQuote:
Originally Posted by Sindal
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08-23-2022, 04:26 PMAmh_Wilzuun
MCH I agree isn't the best right now, like just play Reaper lol.
BRD is probably the least appealing looking job in the game to me maybe I'll like it if I level it one day.
DNC is a job I leveled recently and I actually quite like it. It's a great example of a simple job that is also still fun to play. And the burst phase feels crazy busy. -
08-23-2022, 05:30 PMAiscence
Hard to have fun in a role the devs don't care about