The Future of WHM

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Do you guys like the idea of Thin Air turning the next heal into a ogcd?
It could be two separate buffs to avoid awkwardness ( so 1 buff removes mana cost and the other makes next heal ogcd ).
Thin Air is just a bit boring imo?
It'd be some more on-demand AoE ogcd healing too.

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Thin Air does seem very underwhelming compared to its previous iteration, but it doesn't necessarily require an entirely new mechanic to make it more useful. I don't really think that the oGCD trait is really relevant to its primary usage as an MP management/recovery ability, but perhaps changing it to reduce the MP cost of the next two spells would make it slightly better (4 MP-free GCDs every 120s compared to the 4.8 in ShB).

Maybe you could even use the ability on another party member, making it have more support utility.

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Originally Posted by Conchoidal

Thin Air does seem very underwhelming compared to its previous iteration, but it doesn't necessarily require an entirely new mechanic to make it more useful. I don't really think that the oGCD trait is really relevant to its primary usage as an MP management/recovery ability, but perhaps changing it to reduce the MP cost of the next two spells would make it slightly better (4 MP-free GCDs every 120s compared to the 4.8 in ShB).

Maybe you could even use the ability on another party member, making it have more support utility.

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I think it could give it a double purpose which would be cool, especially to sneak in Lily heals without having to stop casting Glare.
But yeah, just reducing cost on a single spell feels a bit meh.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I think it could give it a double purpose which would be cool, especially to sneak in Lily heals without having to stop casting Glare.
But yeah, just reducing cost on a single spell feels a bit meh.

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If you let an oGCD make Misery-generating Lily heals oGCD, you will have doubled the potency-recovery from said Lily heals and introduced that much more pressure to hit Misery within its given cycles. You'd now be tuned around Misery usage instead of mostly regardless of it. Dia and/or Glare and/or Assize potency would have to be reduced to compensate.

Moreover, Lily heals are the only reason WHM spends only 19 in 24 GCDs per minute on its filler spam, down from the usual 22 in 24. Why give us even less to use our GCDs on? Why remove the extra mobility and weave space?

Just leave the Lily heals on the GCD. Thin Air can just remain an oGCD itself, which makes the next Cure 2, Medica, or Medica 2 into MP-less, instant, and Blood-Lily progressing casts.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If you let an oGCD make Misery-generating Lily heals oGCD, you will have doubled the potency-recovery from said Lily heals and introduced that much more pressure to hit Misery within its given cycles. You'd now be tuned around Misery usage instead of mostly regardless of it. Dia and/or Glare and/or Assize potency would have to be reduced to compensate.

Moreover, Lily heals are the only reason WHM spends only 19 in 24 GCDs per minute on its filler spam, down from the usual 22 in 24. Why give us even less to use our GCDs on? Why remove the extra mobility and weave space?

Just leave the Lily heals on the GCD. Thin Air can just remain an oGCD itself, which makes the next Cure 2, Medica, or Medica 2 into MP-less, instant, and Blood-Liloy progressing casts.

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Not sure really how much of an increase in DPS it'd really be someone would have to crank the numbers on that, like I said tho just a suggestion to spice the damage rotation up I was interested in hearing about.
I can see your point.

I still think Thin Air could be more interesting like I suggested tho, I like the idea that they can progress Blood Lily too.
I just think that Thin Air could have more fun interactions with your spells than just '' no MP ''.

Edit: Maybe I am remembering it wrong but I think Afflatus Misery is closer to Glare in regards to value for your gcd damage-wise now than it used to be.
I was under the impression that the difference was bigger than it is now at least.
I think it was like 800 potency or something before but I am not 100% sure about that.

It'd be an increase of those 3 Glares per minute. Because you'll have thereby overtuned WHM's ppm by 930, their individual value will likely be nerfed and that difference decreased, but it's potent regardless. Keep in mind that a SCH dumping every possible Aetherflow into Energy Drain produces less than a single Glare's potency per minute.

Misery is now dps-neutral. In Shadowbringers it was 900, versus what was then 300 potency Glares, a 75% efficiency.

None of that matters, though, if Misery has no opportunity cost. Then Misery just becomes however many bonus potency per minute atop a kit whose rDPS is not balanced around it. Misery then produces X ppm, or removing its opportunity costs produce 3 Glares per minute.

whm is in a decent spot imho it still needs a few things like a 2nd assize charge so you can float one and tetra needs to be heavily buffed its incredibly weak compared to say dignity

Got some practice and clears in with P1-4S on WHM and yeah I take back the Lily suggestion they feel alright.
As SenzorialBoundries mentioned tho I kinda was juggling the thought in my head a lot of whether to hold Assize or not, it would be nice with a second charge so you could hold one for more reactive healing and still use one on cd for damage and mana ( especially in prog I'd imagine when you don't fully know the fight yet ).

WHM is "decent" at end game but both the leveling experience and downtime tools are an absolute joke (which is true for all healers really).
Levels 1-50 teach you an outdated method of healing that will be redundant by the time you hit 60 and only gets worse from there as more and more oGCDs replace the need for GCD healing, with the sole exception being the Lily System and even then, those don't come until 52 and 76. Due to how much has been removed from WHM, the leveling experience has been left a shallow husk of what it used to be and does a poor job of giving new players a proper idea of how WHM plays at end game, leaving them to fall into traps like Freecure farming and this needs to be changed. So I have a few suggestions.

Since CNJ doesn't learn any skills from levels 12-30, let's reintroduce reworked versions of past skills and place them at level 15/20/25.
Return Fluid Aura at level 15 as a low level version of Assize
Stoneskin as low level Divine Benison at level 20
Divine Seal as Temperance at level 25.
Have Freecure change Cure 1 into Cure 2 at level 28 to free up room for Regen at level 30.
Once you unlock WHM at level 30, have it so you unlock Afflatus Rapture and Solace at level 30, with Presence of Mind being moved back to level 35.
I would lower Tetra down to level 58 and make Afflatus Misery available at level 60 (with Potency to match 4 Stones worth and upgrade it via trait alongside Stone/Glare to keep the 2 in balance with one another).

To remove some redundancy from our Toolkit, I'd merge Divine Benison and Aqua Veil. Stoneskin will have the same potency as Cure 1 with Divine Bension adding a 15% mitigation effect, and when Cure 1 gets its potency upgrade, Divine Benison will also be upgraded to match it.
I'd also remove PI and simply lower the CD of Divine Seal/Temperance to compensate for its removal.
Finally, I'd remove Thin Air

To improve downtime, I'd add a simple branching rotation of 1-2-3 being a buff combo and 1-4-5 being a DPS combo.
2 - Seraph Strike that grants Cleric Stance for 15s
3 - Tornado to Grant Thin Air, reducing the cost of the next 3 actions by half.
4 - Water/Banish
5 - Earthquake/Sanctum
I'd also suggest adding in the Diacloud trait to make Regen/Medica 2 not awful to use.

So in summation, I improved the leveling experience to not be totally awful, removed some bloat and made room for a small rotation that is simple enough to understand.

leveling WHM is so abysmal
like tetra should not be a level 60 skill should be something you get at like 30-40 range

At level 2 is better, two charges 15s cd, instead of cure 1

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Although the refresh rate of Lillies reduced down to 20s was nice, it feels like there is often a surplus

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this. in some content the tank can be kept alive through some proactive non-Lily healing, it pains me to see those 3 lilies just sitting there, and i KNOW there are some WHM who are spamming Solace on a fully healed tank just to get to use Misery and that's just bad design. we need an extra spell to spend these surplus lilies on that is not a heal, could be a shield, could be a buff, could be a damage spell. and if SE is worried about ability bloat, then let's talk about perhaps transforming Thin Air into something related to surplus lilies, or finally solving the Cure 1 + Freecure dilemma

A shield you don't need is just as useless as a heal you don't need and WHM can't have a buff or damage spell because Misery locks the whole design into a corner.

Content simply needs to hit harder and/or more often so there are less situations where you're sitting on 3 lilies and don't need any.

Okay, so mostly everyone here is in agreement that WHM is in an okay spot, but the levelling and downtime experience needs to drastically improve. The job does feel awful when levelling, so introducing old spells like Divine Seal and Stoneskin and then upgrade them to spells like Divine Benison and Temperance is a good idea. We also need another lily ability as we sometimes have a surplus of lilies ever since the 6.1 buff.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

A shield you don't need is just as useless as a heal you don't need

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well no because overhealing does nothing but a shield gives the tank that 2nd HP bar for upcoming damage. more wiggle room for me to pew pew

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

A shield you don't need is just as useless as a heal you don't need and WHM can't have a buff or damage spell because Misery locks the whole design into a corner.

Content simply needs to hit harder and/or more often so there are less situations where you're sitting on 3 lilies and don't need any.

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To be frank, I’d very much prefer devs to keep the old 30s default timer BUT can be speed up through a good use of WHM’s other kits. To name a few that I mentioned in the past: a use of tetra speed up lily timer by 15s, breaking benison shield speed up by 5s, and few others that I couldn’t remember without looking back in the list.

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Originally Posted by snuggans

well no because overhealing does nothing but a shield gives the tank that 2nd HP bar for upcoming damage. more wiggle room for me to pew pew

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But the shield absorbing damage reduces the damage you need to heal further, leading to something else overhealing instead or still resulting in less lilies needed. It's just like that wasted Solace except you heal in advance instead of afterwards.

In most cases, even Savage, a tank can be sustained purely from free oGCD's, their own self heal and the aoe heal you use for the rest of the party. Pushing a shield onto them on top of that is unnecessary.

The reason WHM's are spamming Solace on a fully healed tank is because there's no damage to heal, like you said. A shield does nothing because there's no damage to heal, they'll still end up fully healed without it, even if you pew pew.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

To be frank, I’d very much prefer devs to keep the old 30s default timer BUT can be speed up through a good use of WHM’s other kits. To name a few that I mentioned in the past: a use of tetra speed up lily timer by 15s, breaking benison shield speed up by 5s, and few others that I couldn’t remember without looking back in the list.

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I'd tie it to dps personally, but I know that would cause uproar.

Tying it to heals is always awkward (especially a "good" use) because heals aren't always needed or you have a GCD heal spamming co-heal. Even on harder fights Rapture is much better value than Tetra so you'd happily pop a pure overheal Tetra to prep for a raidwide. Breaking a Benison shield is a good idea, although I still think bosses need to hit harder so you aren't just going through the motions despite the fact that your co-healers Kardia and Nascent flash would have it covered if you didn't bother.

It's very hard to properly reward healing. There are too many factors. Co healer, the encounter, gear, group skill and so on. Rewarding dps is easy, it's always useful.

I can only think of a handful of ways to deal with surplus lilies and none are particularly likely to happen.

1) Return Lilies back to 30s
2) Rework our oGCD toolkit to GCDs tied into the Lily System
3) Remove some oGCDs to make the Lily System more needed
4) Increase damage the party takes
5) Nerf the potency of healing skill.

Returning Lilies to 30s again would hurt WHM's DPS as Misery would no longer align with Raid buffs
Reworking our oGCD into GCDs tied into the Lily system just makes them into GCD Aetherflow abilities and unless Lilies start off capped as well as have them passively generate outside of combat, we'd be unable to utilize them during the start of an instance.
Removing some oGCDs could theoretically work but which oGCDs? Tetra is probably the most likely but what else would you remove?
Increasing the damage would work but SE has already killed that idea
Nerfing Healing potency would work too but considering that they recently buffed potencies, I doubt that's happening too.

SE just needs to admit to being wrong and make the game slightly more demanding in regards to healing. Add mobs/bosses that throw out some spicy DoTs or can Crit party members, have raidwides that do more damage the lower your health is, have mechanics that hit a random DPS multiple times in rapid succession while the boss is hitting the Tank with a Tankbuster. Right now, all SE does is add more and more healing tools and nothing to justify their existence or inclusion because even ignoring half of them will result in overhealing in most cases and Savage/Ultimate can barely justify having 2 healers as is and that needs to change.

I can think of like five actions I would immediately yeet into the sun if it meant WHM could have Seraph Strike in PvE because it's some of the most fun I have with WHM.

Why fixate on excess Lilies, though, when in those same situations every healer has excess free tools?

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

But the shield absorbing damage reduces the damage you need to heal further, leading to something else overhealing instead or still resulting in less lilies needed.

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not necessarily, the shield would mean that the other heals can be delayed and you'd spend that period DPSing instead of maintaining the tank, your argument is based on not making any alterations to playstyle after new abilities are added to the game. remember, the point is to be able to offload surplus lilies in a way thats still useful when the tank's HP is doing fine, a shield would accomplish this and buy you more time to DPS while helping unlock Misery without Solace overheals

also i have no idea what you mean by "WHM can't have a buff or damage spell because Misery locks the whole design into a corner.", it just seems like you're boycotting any proposed changes just because

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Originally Posted by snuggans

not necessarily, the shield would mean that the other heals can be delayed and you'd spend that period DPSing instead of maintaining the tank, your argument is based on not making any alterations to playstyle after new abilities are added to the game. remember, the point is to be able to offload surplus lilies in a way thats still useful when the tank's HP is doing fine, a shield would accomplish this and buy you more time to DPS while helping unlock Misery without Solace overheals

also i have no idea what you mean by "WHM can't have a buff or damage spell because Misery locks the whole design into a corner.", it just seems like you're boycotting any proposed changes just because

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1) It probably would be bad for WHM to get another shield. Considering players all want to optimise and we have lived in the OGCD meta for a while now, it'd be weird if the "pure" healers were shielding more than the barrier healers; given that SCH/SGE ideally don't want to GCD cast any shields and so only have their OGCD shields that are on longer CDs than D.Benison/C.Intersection.
2) I don't think WHM should get a damage spell linked to lilies. It puts it in the same spot as SCH where you'll essentially get a penalty every time you need to use lilies for a heal. Not to mention it would have to take a hit to one of its other spells as WHM is doing pretty good with pDPS at the moment.

I'd like to see something innovative but I'm not sure exactly what. A buff would mean WHMs would need to optimise play around buff windows, which isn't the complexity they ever put this job at. They could maybe do something DPS wise if it was on a much longer CD than lily generation, but then you essentially have the same problem again. They could bring back abilities like Virus or Eye for an eye, but SCHs would be hella salty.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

I'd like to see something innovative but I'm not sure exactly what. A buff would mean WHMs would need to optimise play around buff windows, which isn't the complexity they ever put this job at. They could maybe do something DPS wise if it was on a much longer CD than lily generation, but then you essentially have the same problem again. They could bring back abilities like Virus or Eye for an eye, but SCHs would be hella salty.

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TBH, it doesn't have to be something profound. We could...
-Make WHM the selfish DPS healer; the healer who can capitalize on a buff window, using a torrential storm of elemental rage that accumulates based on actual healing provided to the party (healing = rage, a concept we're all familiar with). From there, you just alter general parameters to compensate, though I doubt this would require a massive edit to numbers overall depending on frequency. Or,
-Give WHM another ability which activates when the Blood Lily has affected enemies a certain number of times (i.e. 3 times, and you get a "you did it!" bonus effect, the "blood bouquet" or something). Or,
-Make WHM the basic buffer, who provides the basic-but-much-beloved basic ATK+ buffs to the party (in the form of a familiar spell called Bravery, which becomes available if a Lily is successfully used to heal party members and not just used to overheal). In response to that, change ASTs buffs to be indirect/weird buffs (for example, rather than just ATK+, have AST increase the Weapon Damage number on an affected character's weapon by 5, (or something more reasonable, because I don't know the exact formula(s) for damage and therefore don't know how much WD is weighted in damage calculations), keep SCH buffing characters' other battle parameters like Max HP and Movement speed, and allow SGE to buff themselves using 1 out of every 3 Addersgall gained to change their Auto-attacks to a (short-) ranged attack that uses MND in damage calculations for 15 seconds (or a more reasonable amount of time, again, I don't know the formula(s))).

Or a whole plethora of other ideas that players would like a hell of a lot more than what I can come up. They also have other games and series, under the Squeenix umbrella, to draw inspiration from, and it's not as if they need to tread absolutely brand new territory.

My biggest gripe with whm is how laughably weak Tetra is compared to basically every other alike ability on other healers, both excog and taurochole are 100 pot more on 45 sec cooldwon you might say hey at least those ability cost a resource point to use ok sure ill give you that but what about Essential Dignity, 2 charges of up to 900 potency ogcd heal on 40 sec cooldown inb4 Tetra is 1 min cooldown and heals less than a cure 2 after 85 like come on...not mentioning how you get tetra at lvl 60 while astro gets dignity at lvl 15

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Originally Posted by SenzorialBoundries

My biggest gripe with whm is how laughably weak Tetra is compared to basically every other alike ability on other healers, both excog and taurochole are 100 pot more on 45 sec cooldwon you might say hey at least those ability cost a resource point to use ok sure ill give you that but what about Essential Dignity, 2 charges of up to 900 potency ogcd heal on 40 sec cooldown inb4 Tetra is 1 min cooldown and heals less than a cure 2 after 85 like come on...not mentioning how you get tetra at lvl 60 while astro gets dignity at lvl 15

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I feel like these sort of comments aren't useful because you haven't looked at the full picture. On release, AST had weaker potencies than the other healers and was considered pretty bad. They literally needed E.dignity in their kit, and at that time only had one charge. Today, it has 2 charges because AST has no other single target emergency buttons. WHM has access to both A.Solace and Benediction.

Again, not saying that WHM shouldn't have changes or that Tetra wouldn't be better earlier in the WHM toolkit, but if you are going to compare you have to look at the entire toolkits of all the healers you mention.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

I feel like these sort of comments aren't useful because you haven't looked at the full picture. On release, AST had weaker potencies than the other healers and was considered pretty bad. They literally needed E.dignity in their kit, and at that time only had one charge. Today, it has 2 charges because AST has no other single target emergency buttons. WHM has access to both A.Solace and Benediction.

Again, not saying that WHM shouldn't have changes or that Tetra wouldn't be better earlier in the WHM toolkit, but if you are going to compare you have to look at the entire toolkits of all the healers you mention.

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What's the excuse for Excog and Taurchole then? Regardless, it's not much of an excuse to leave skills outdated.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

What's the excuse for Excog and Taurchole then? Regardless, it's not much of an excuse to leave skills outdated.

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OGCDs are weird on all healers tbf, it’s not a WHM exclusive issue. AST/WHM get 2 single target shields per minute, SCH has none and SGE has haima, which is more a fairie tether equivalent.
Similarly SGE has 2 regens, AST has 1 and WHM has 0.

Once again you have to look at the entire kits. Things may not make sense, but it’s not WHM exclusive. If the issue was to be sorted, it would need to be across the board.

Suggestion for a Aero/Dia rework? It's actually been on my mind for the last few days. This is mostly me playing BRD the last view weeks, but it is something worth talking about.

My suggestion is that the Aero/Dia spell should no longer be a DoT ability and should instead be something like SGE's Phlegma ability minus the healing potency that was slapped onto it. It should also be tied to the Regen spells (including Medica II's regen).

Please note, I'm just playing around with the potency and percentage numbers here, so don't take the numbering portions too literally.

Reworked Aero/Dia

• Instant Cast GCD ability
• Recast timer of 40secs
• Maximum Charges: 2

Aero: Deals wind Damage to a single target with a potency of 240.
Aero II: Deals wind Damage to a single target with a potency of 280.

At level 62, Aero II is upgraded to good old Aero III.

• The skill becomes an AoE ability like Phlegma.
• Deals wind Damage to a target and all nearby enemies around it with a potency of 350 for the first enemy and 30% less for all remaining enemies.

At level 72, Aero III is upgraded to an AoE Dia.

• I believe Dia was a multi-hitting ability in older FF titles, so that's why I suggest the spell be a AoE ability now.
• Deals light Damage to a target and all nearby enemies around it with a potency of 460 for the first enemy and 30% less for all remaining enemies.

As for how this skill ties to Regen, let's just say that for every tick of the regen timer, there is a certain chance that the recast timer for Aero/Dia will go down. Here is what it looks like.

New Trait: Gained at level 50

• Name: Don't know. Not good with naming things.
• For each tick of Regen, there will be a 50% chance the recast timer for Aero/Dia will be reduced by 8 seconds. A trait will be earned at the later levels which will increase this chance to 70%.

As for the regen coming from Medica II, the chance for this to happen has been decreased to 25%. Will increase to 30% at a later level. This is due to the fact that Medica II is a AoE regen, and to balance things out, the chance for lowering the recast timer for Aero/Dia is drastically reduced.

Again, this is something that's been on my head a lot since I've been playing BRD. And since it ties to my personal feelings that healers should be rewarded for healing, it plays out (in my head at least).

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

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I know you said not to get hung up on Potencies but in order for this suggestion to be balanced so that WHM isn't completely screwed over, Aero/Dia would need to be in the ballpark of 920 potency for this idea to work. Dia currently does 660 total potency over its entire duration so trying to push that potency back 10s would mean an additional potency of ~260 would be needed just to break even with old Dia.

As for Regen reducing the timer by 8s per tic, that would have to compete with Glare 3 in order for Dia to make up the difference between. Since Glare would be roughly 1/3 that of Dia, you would need to shave off 13s per cast to make up it's cast. At 70% chance, Regen on average proc about 4/6 tics of its duration, reducing the cast time between Dia down to 8 seconds, which is more than a little ridiculous. So to balance it, you'd need to reduce the time down to 4s per tic.

So now Dia is a 920 nuke with Regen, on average, providing more DPS than Glare 3. It would give WHM a more involved rotation but I'm not sure how healthy throwing out 920 AoE nukes would be, even if the AoE Fall Off was on the higher end of the spectrum.

if you dont want ppl to get hung up on potencies just say ut duoes X damage tbh

anyways, i think giving non-overheal regen ticks procs for beneficial effects to offset the lost gcd is great.

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

Reworked Aero/Dia

• Instant Cast GCD ability
• Recast timer of 40secs
• Maximum Charges: 2

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This feels like just a far worse (less flexible, fewer options, less nuance) version of what we already have.

At present, Aero/Dia performs two functions:

• It adds damage over time, optimized by use "on CD" (replacing it before the server tick after it expires).
• It offers an instant cast for mobility, albeit at the cost of up to 250 potency (if chain casting Dia) relative to Glare III spam.

With your version --until the new trait which would require Regen ticks (and perhaps oblige it be maintained on multiple allies for overhealing)-- you now have one third fewer non-Glare casts per minute, because of the longer cooldown, and you will have cost WHM its instant-cast option.

With the trait in play, this becomes even more problematic, because the higher the CD (and thus the potency), the greater the value of CD-Reduction.

So now you're likely obliged to Regen (which will likely overheal and/or be far less efficient for actual healing across targets on which to maintain it than would an AoE heal), or else face even more Glare spam, and have no mobility option outside of Lily casts (with their likely overheal).

The solution, generally, would be to instead go the Thundercloud approach. Keep Dia a DoT, on its old duration or shorter (24 multiplies smoothly to 120 for raid cycles, though it does oblige a 2.4s GCD for perfect uptime, which then adds one Glare per minute). Have the proc instead make it deal its damage instantly atop inflicting the DoT, or even just upgrade the next use of Dia to deal all its damage instantly (no DoT), which then wouldn't mess with DoT timings (for better or worse).

Note: If you use an external element for the proc chance, then each the value of each proc-chance event will decrease as the remaining duration of the DoT decreases, unless the proc turns it into a DoT-less upgrade. Keeping the DoT even on the procced form then offers additional skill ceiling, but in a way that not everyone will necessarily appreciate, so balance per your preference.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

if you dont want ppl to get hung up on potencies just say ut duoes X damage tbh

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Giving a damage value would be useless, as it'd depend on one's gear. That's the reason why our tooltips, for all their awkward language, tend to be far more useful than, say, WoW's, as they at least give us something that applies across multiple characters.

Useful will only be...

• Potency
• Filler casts' worth of potency (of like type, oGCDs vs. oGCD filler or GCDs vs. GCD filler).
• "Damage enough that it should be used <in X manner>"

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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Thank you both for the feedback. I'll keep in mind of the potency stuff in the future. This suggestion has been on my mind since I've been playing BRD and, dang it, I just want a better damage rotation during downtime. And I don't mind at all if they remove Dia as a DoT as it would give an excuse for SE to give SCH back DoTs like Miasma II since they are concerned about handling multiple DoTs on a job.

Let me ask you this, if removing Dia is bad as you say, would my suggestion work if Aero III and it's upgraded spell be a separate spell like it was in HW and StB? Along with some changes to the Aero III/Regen synergy as a whole?

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

Let me ask you this, if removing Dia is bad as you say, would my suggestion work if Aero III and it's upgraded spell be a separate spell like it was in HW and StB? Along with some changes to the Aero III/Regen synergy as a whole?

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I think the main take-away would be that there's no need to remove DoT functionality (which has more choices and affordances available to it than just the CD) to grant more frequent varied casts and larger, dopamine-spiking numbers. You can have both.

And you can provide the addition on a separate key, as you've suggested above (Aero III/Diaga?), or even on the same one, as per a modification of Thundercloud.

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And I don't mind at all if they remove Dia as a DoT as it would give an excuse for SE to give SCH back DoTs like Miasma II since they are concerned about handling multiple DoTs on a job.

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However...

• Those are separate jobs and thus would not factor into the above concern about multiple jobs on the same job.
  
  
• Moreover, removing a given affordance from one job has only the mildest of correlations with another job getting it. Generally, if they want a new job to have something in their kit, they'd just steal it away from its prior holder.
  
  They would not, so late on, remove it from one existing job to then give it to another, especially when it'd offer far less to the job who'd then have redundant tools [2 spells worth maintaining on 2-3 targets and 2 instant-casts via Bio and Ruin II, if a ever dev happens to notice again that it exists] than the job who'd then be left with nothing.

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

And I don't mind at all if they remove Dia as a DoT as it would give an excuse for SE to give SCH back DoTs like Miasma II since they are concerned about handling multiple DoTs on a job.

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Sadly, that's not how that would work. In order for Miasma to return, either SCH would need to take a potency nerf on its skills that Miasma would make up for or the other healers would need buffs to compensate.

Turning Dia into a nuke would only replace itself and not add anything to WHM to justify the inclusion of Miasma on SCH. Either they add the nuke alongside the DoT or they add a new skill alongside the Nuke.
Think of it like MCH/DNC/BRD.

MCH doesn't have any DoTs but makes up for it by having several mini nukes with higher potency than their standard combo to compensate.
DNC doesn't have DoTs but makes up for it by having a few nukes and party buffs.
BRD is heavy into DoTs and Buffs that make up their DPS.

Healers would need to follow a similar pattern, with SCH being the DoT/Buff healer, WHM having several nukes, AST focusing more on Buffs and SGE being a mix of Nukes and DoTs. It can work but also requires a lot more math to balance it all out.

It's worth noting also that the value of a DoT is highly relative.

Its affordances are only that...

• It's effectively a CD (and therefore is often worth putting additional advantages onto, such as instant casts when you'd otherwise lack one).
• Its CD is soft (and can therefore be rushed, albeit at cost).
• Its available use scales with enemy count (until reaching enemy counts high enough for your AoE to be preferable).

But, if you already had on-demand, no-cost instant casts anyways, or switch to AoE over said DoT upon reaching just two targets, etc., all that's not going to mean much.