Paladins Invuln Capping in Onsal Hakkar

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

I mean, we got multiple hotfix patches to address CC balance. I don't think that's the issue. I think the issue is that SE apparently believes this is a "creative use of game mechanics," and not an actual problem. Who knows? Maybe JP players are better at dealing with it than we are?

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No different at all, you can see each of the GCs have PLD to exploit this...

https://c.tenor.com/zHAoHLwU4M4AAAAd...-head-desk.gif

I was hoping this would be fixed... Hopefully 6.2?

Considering SE has said they think it's a creative use of mechanics, I think you're getting your hopes up about it being changed at all. Maybe if the JP players raise a stink about it?

It’s really not that hard to counter it. Just knockback/draw in. If they guard, it only lasts 5 seconds, wait for it to wear off and knock them back.

Sure not every job has a knockback/draw in, but it’s not that big of an ask to have one of a MNK/MCH/DRK with a 20-30 second recast ability at the ready to counter the very specific requirements of 2 co-ordinated PLDs using both their LBs and a 25s recast ability.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Considering SE has said they think it's a creative use of mechanics, I think you're getting your hopes up about it being changed at all. Maybe if the JP players raise a stink about it?

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https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-making-claims

It's been an accepted bug for over two months now.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

Considering SE has said they think it's a creative use of mechanics, I think you're getting your hopes up about it being changed at all. Maybe if the JP players raise a stink about it?

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I think (hope) it's just a creative way to say they're not going to warn/ban players for this, and to not flood the GM with it.

but the only creative thing here is transforming a PvP map into a PvE sidequest. It's seriously worrying if they think it's ok.
(well, their leniency with leeches and griefers is already worrying)

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

It’s really not that hard to counter it. Just knockback/draw in. If they guard, it only lasts 5 seconds, wait for it to wear off and knock them back.

Sure not every job has a knockback/draw in, but it’s not that big of an ask to have one of a MNK/MCH/DRK with a 20-30 second recast ability at the ready to counter the very specific requirements of 2 co-ordinated PLDs using both their LBs and a 25s recast ability.

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Sch/Smn stacking isn't hard to counter blablablabla

also I think Mnk, Mch, Drk want to play Mnk, Mch and Drk, not the anti-stupid-gimmick gimmick.

Please fix this, I've had three matches in Onsal Hakair on the Crystal data-center tonight that have been entirely determined by which team had someone paired with a Paladin to capture the ovoos and because of the damage reduction added to tanks and melee DPS in 6.18 it's much harder to kill them before they get close enough to do this. For all the fun that patch 6.1 brought back to PVP, this is now killing it and making frontlines unenjoyable.

I had multiple matches this last rotation through Onsal Hakkar (I've been away and unable to reply until now) and after dealing with paladins in every single match, on points that they literally are the only two of their team there, and then lose match after match to paladin cheese, I'm done playing the mode.

It feels awful to be playing a class I have fun on and know that the only way my team can win is if I learn some job I don't enjoy in pvp to specifically counter a move that may not be a cheat, but sure feels like one. So, not only do people need to play a certain class, they cannot even really participate other than as pld counter offensive move.

Yes, it's creative. So is most any cheat or hack. Fixing a bad mechanic working in a way that wasn't necessarily intended isn't stifling some budding artists' creative endeavor.

If you make people feel cheated and all-around negative about a mode, the less they participate. The less people participate, the more people complain about PVP being dead because the df refuses to pop. So on and so forth and numbers dwindle and that's not what anyone wants.

The reason we come here and bring these issues up is because we hope to be able to avoid that. I like PVP actually. I'd like to continue participating but I do this for fun and to relax. If that isn't going to be the goal for this map that's fine, I don't need to play it.

This remainded me of the Kobayashi Maru xD

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Originally Posted by Khala

I had multiple matches this last rotation through Onsal Hakkar (I've been away and unable to reply until now) and after dealing with paladins in every single match, on points that they literally are the only two of their team there, and then lose match after match to paladin cheese, I'm done playing the mode.

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This pretty much sums up my feelings.

I didn't think it was a big issue when it first started happening, however I have not played much in Onsal Hakkar recently, until this rotation.

Having played 15+ matches in the past 24 hours though, it seems obvious that this tactic has become much more widely known, as almost every S rank and a fair majority of the A ranks I have been at have been taken using this tactic.

I found that it didn't really matter whether you were on a team who were using this tactic or not as far as reducing the fun factor, as it either gives one team an advantage that is unlikely to be overcome through normal play, or in the case of multiple teams using the tactic, it just becomes a race to see which teams Paladins get to it first.

Either way, had I not had yesterday already set aside for frontlines, I would not have played so many matches, and will likely be avoiding Onsal Hakkar for the foreseeable future, as it just wasn't much fun, even when on the winning team.

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Originally Posted by Deccado

I didn't think it was a big issue when it first started happening, however I have not played much in Onsal Hakkar recently, until this rotation.

Having played 15+ matches in the past 24 hours though, it seems obvious that this tactic has become much more widely known, as almost every S rank and a fair majority of the A ranks I have been at have been taken using this tactic.

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I think it feels worse lately because the Moogle Treasure Trove gets more people playing Frontlines.

On Primal there's been a group of 4 friends every single Onsal night who all go Paladin and take turns LBing/covering each other, and it's pretty infuriating.

The people saying "just counter it" don't realize just how easy it is to pull off. Purify + Guard give you more than enough time to get through the entire capping animation, and knockback and draw-ins usually don't move the PLD far enough away to break the cover tether. On top of that if you have multiple people working together, one of them is always going to have Hallowed Ground ready for every cycle of nodes.

It takes WAY more coordination to "counter" the exploit than it does to actually do it, and it's not good for the mode at all.

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Originally Posted by Kowen

one of them is always going to have Hallowed Ground ready for every cycle of nodes.

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Don't forget that you can potentially speed this up even more if you have an AST in the party.

Bad cheese. Please throw away the cheese.

A few friends of mine and I were doing this last night, its super easy to pull off and can easily shift the game...in one particular match both enemy teams were focusing ours and had us pushed almost all the way into spawn while my 2 partners and I would just cap under both teams trying to nuke us... this really really needs to be fixed.

I actually started to appreciate the cover thing. With more players realizing the futility of going for ovoos there are now nice pockets of just simple fun PvP brawling in Onsal. I say let the PLDs spend 20 minutes clicking on interactables in their own game of PvObjective.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

I actually started to appreciate the cover thing. With more players realizing the futility of going for ovoos there are now nice pockets of just simple fun PvP brawling in Onsal. I say let the PLDs spend 20 minutes clicking on interactables in their own game of PvObjective.

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I'd have to disagree. As fun as mindless zergs can be, knowing that no matter how many team fights you win you're still going to lose to a bunch of paladin cheese is just not a fun experience.

The other, less subjective, problem with the objective cheese is that you're not necessarily just playing frontlines for fun. Rewards are based on whether you end up in 1st, 2nd or 3rd place and losing out on rewards simply because the other team had more paladins is just bad design, especially during the current moogle event since those are based on your place as well.

Is there anything that can stop a covered player outside of another covered player capturing first?

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Is there anything that can stop a covered player outside of another covered player capturing first?

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A really good warrior with its pull, or maybe a monk? i dunno how far it push. nono for mch, cause its push is only 10y (and cover iirc is 15)

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

I don't really see it as a huge issue. More than half of your points will (or should) be coming from kills. It's unlikely that a single node, capped by a single paladin, will determine the outcome of a game. It's dumb and annoying and will hopefully get fixed, but it's not like it's gamebreaking.

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Not true. I just had a game where yellow sauntered around and gathered up every A and S rank node with literally no problem whatsoever. Something needs to change.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

I don't really see it as a huge issue. More than half of your points will (or should) be coming from kills. It's unlikely that a single node, capped by a single paladin, will determine the outcome of a game. It's dumb and annoying and will hopefully get fixed, but it's not like it's gamebreaking.

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It is very gamebreaking. Every S rank on my last map was captured by the same team, using that exploit every time. They went from last to walking into every mid cap and grabbing it while all 3 teams were on top of it. I honestly hope they get banned, but we both know personal responsibility for your actions is not something gamer's like.

Onsai day again, played 2 games, lost both literally to cover exploiting by the enemy paladins, just gonna play something else now, not worth queueing for this crap.

It would be so easy to fix too. Just change Cover to prevent 99% of damage. The 1% would stop the node capping and the covered target would still pretty much take no damage. You'd just lose on the ability to potion while covered but that's kind of a weird design.

Please, please, PLEASE change this, PvP dev team. It is incredibly frustrating and can decide the course of an entire match with very little to do about it. The fact that it takes so little effort from the offending paladin(s), but tremendous effort of people trying to stop them (which usually fails anyway because PLD has too many countermeasures, especially if there are several paladins working in tandem), is just plain bad design. I'm sorry but this oversight is particularly egregious.

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Originally Posted by GordonGeeko

It would be so easy to fix too. Just change Cover to prevent 99% of damage. The 1% would stop the node capping and the covered target would still pretty much take no damage. You'd just lose on the ability to potion while covered but that's kind of a weird design.

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That and at least make it cover the "Damage" part, not even the cc and make them immune to every cc while in cover. Crystalline Conflict is already plagued with this.

By the way, this is the kind of situation where the devs should remember they're supposed to be very good at communication with the players, or something (at least that's what the fanbots say each time yoshda do something), and that they have a forum. A simple confirmation that it is going to be fixed in 6.2 would be nice

They really need to fix this. Its not balanced, its exploitable and it ruins the experience. This map was a favorite of mine until this exploit became more common. Now I hope I can just get the couple of more wins I need for my mount and leave this experience behind for now.
Everyday they don't do something about this they are failing their player base. Seems like it would be an easy fix to prevent this game mode ruining strategy without nerfing PLD into the ground. Please dev team, stop ignoring this and please adjust this so the map does not continue to be a huge disappointment every time a player decides to exploit this overlooked game play imbalance.

Never thought I would make a post in the pvp forum but this season is so absolutely incredibly garbage the devs should feel ashamed.
Not only does this need nerfs it needs to have systems added to prevent this from happening in the future, job stacking should be eliminated.
Not touching this garbage until it gets fixed.

Please fix this, in my mind it’s exactly like the ungarmax exploit - giving a player competitive advantage over others. I loaded in with a team in frontline and my will to play plummet when my team was like “easy game pld cover, everyone change to pld, this is the sixth game in a row I won lol” we won the game, everyone thanked the pld for the EZ win.
It was the exact same pld, I could not stop in previous matches. I don’t want the whole match to hang on whether we use pld cheese strat please.

They only sensitive toward ultimate exploits but sleeping over PLD cheese, for 2 PATCHES.

Onsal and Seal Rock (somehow) become not fun because of this.

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Originally Posted by GordonGeeko

It would be so easy to fix too. Just change Cover to prevent 99% of damage. The 1% would stop the node capping and the covered target would still pretty much take no damage. You'd just lose on the ability to potion while covered but that's kind of a weird design.

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Its not even that. Sage LB makes you take 100% less damage (its worded "negates all damage"), but you still take 0 damage that will interrupt your flag capture.

Its how cover is coded to transfer all damage instead of making you take 100% less. You are literally unable to take even 0 damage by press of a single button every 25 seconds (nodes last 30 seconds so its always up for next ones)

But im just nitpicking, your suggestion would work. You could make it so that target takes 100% less damage, but still "takes 0" so it would interrupt casts that you probably arent meant to use middle of brawl.

FWIW, it's possible to be bad at PLD cheese. Last time we had Onsal(friday, I think). Red node spawns mid in the first group of nodes. People fought over that thing for almost half the match before someone finally claimed it.

I'm going to bump this because the point of the mode according to my understanding: kill others, capture flag and not like 'fight and have a sneaky rat and his friend capture the flag under the noses of perhaps 24 people when most classes don't have sufficient counter and goodluck killing a PLD before his friend finishes interacting. Play X class to counter this play; no thanks. It might work in CC where there's some measure of visibility but in frontline when there's a literal pile on the ovoo, good luck spotting the PLD before it's too late. It's annoying, disheartening, and even when I switched to warrior and did my best to counter it- It wasn't fun. I got no joy out of it and I doubt the dude enjoyed getting focused all the game because you know I'm putting a mark on him.

I briefly enjoyed the new pvp because I previously felt like if I didn't play WHM then I'm helpless. Healing others was my way of like 'minimizing potential deaths/point loss'. I didn't enjoy that playstyle but I did it for the achievements. The new rework made it more like 'welp you can't do shit so focus on your own thing' which was nice. It made me try other classes and actually have a measure of fun without feeling like I must play a certain job to counter something or minimize potential rips.

Please make it so if you get hit your interact gets cancelled. That's all.

Bumping it too.


I seriously wonder if this information is reaching the devs in JP, the ones who can do something about it (and for which Yoshi P has asked english Youtube content creators to activate JP auto translate in their videos for). Because I feel US/EU threads are mostly taken care of US/EU community managers, who as long as they don't get a PM stating "this thing is a bug/an exploit", will always classify this as "working as intended". Which isn't bad per se, but for some things I think the dev team should take a more direct stance about.



I wish we could get direct information from the dev team in a LL or a special post in Lodestone. They've started giving more info in regards to job balance changes, would be nice to do so with controversial (to say the least) job abilities too.

What really bothers me is that they'll fix some weird thing that barely affects anyone, but not the PLD cheese.

Like you look at hotfixes and it's stuff like :

An issue when playing as paladin in PvP wherein the healing effect of Confiteor was affected by opponent's status effects.

And it's like: Ok, you fix these insignificant things, but not the PLD cheese. Really ?

It has always been like that...

onsal day bump

(i'd be ashamed to make a game and let this kind of shit rot for months)

https://i.imgur.com/fMjgGUS.jpg

So now imma post here every 3 days after premades of Pala and ranged or reaper stomped us with little to no chance..

FIX IT its been weeks...

It hasn't just been weeks, it's been months now. SE needs to at the very least make a statement about the issue.

Even if it's coming out and stating that they think this is 'intended gameplay', fine, then at least we can have confirmation that they have no clue what they're doing.