Is Pyromancer getting a perm ban for having Dalamud?

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Originally Posted by Folsom

Mass reporting someone, so long as they actually broke a rule, is always technically acceptable, regardless of how nice they are. Few companies or other authorities in their right minds write a rule, note that it's only enforced via complaint, and then find legitimate complaints unacceptable, whether enmasse or singularly (though often it takes more than one complaint to trigger a reaction depending on the type of entity the complaint is made to). Whether they actually do anything will be based on their internal policy, but it's extremely unlikely (though not impossible!) that they'll consider the reporting unacceptable or harassment. On the other hand, they may note that it wasn't their intent, but we'll see (or not).

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Do you think the people on 5ch and other communities who engage in targeted, mass reporting actually care about the rules - isn't it possible that they engage in this behaviour because they enjoy having the ability to specifically target and take down people they may not like for reasons outside of the rules.

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

would mass reporting someone still be acceptable if they were nicer?

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I flipped through the video that supposedly detemines that he "deserves it" and all I saw was a kind of ornery dude arguing with some equally obnoxious twitch chatters.

Say what you want about SE's policy on third party mods, but do we really want the only metric for enforcement to be "if you get noticed by 5ch or some twitch users".

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Originally Posted by Folsom

Mass reporting someone, so long as they actually broke a rule, is always technically acceptable, regardless of how nice they are. Few companies or other authorities in their right minds write a rule, note that it's only enforced via complaint, and then find legitimate complaints unacceptable, whether enmasse or singularly (though often it takes more than one complaint to trigger a reaction depending on the type of entity the complaint is made to). Whether they actually do anything will be based on their internal policy, but it's extremely unlikely (though not impossible!) that they'll consider the reporting unacceptable or harassment. On the other hand, they may note that it wasn't their intent, but we'll see (or not).

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while i agree with you on paper, ive seen massreporting being used competitively in other mmos, most notably new world. I worry what will happen if GMs go by volume of reports rather than a thorough investigation.

seeing ppl respond to this with "he deserves it hes a dick" first and foremost is not encouraging

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

while i agree with you on paper, ive seen massreporting being used competitively in other mmos, most notably new world. I worry what will happen if GMs go by volume of reports rather than a thorough investigation.

seeing ppl respond to this with "he deserves it hes a dick" first and foremost is not encouraging

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We don't know if GMs make their decision based on amount of reports or does it simply moves them to investigate much sooner than they would otherwise. Ultimately I doubt one or two reports over few days would generate same response as hundreds sent in a matter of hours.

In this particular case if SE decides to move and investigate latest Pyro streams... Yeah he's toasted. Barring his general attitude and personality he chose to actively antagonize and taunt SE by putting his add-ons on the forefront.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

He left it on screen for 30+ minutes at the end of Stormblood when using a plugin to change the games launch screen from stormblood to ShB.

The VoD is still there, does that mean Square Enix will be taking action?


The community is waiting.

Ban all your free advertisement.

DO IT.

P.s. This is a troll post, he should not get banned for changing a title screen or having a cleaner looking UI that does not affect gameplay or other people in any way. That is just stupid.

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You should read the post by Yoshi P. It includes ALL 3rd pt tools. It isn't up to user discretion. Leaving evidence of violating this policy is idiocy incarnate.

The post also mentions that even voicing support for these tools is considered a violation, by that standard a significant amount of people who sided with Hrothgar and Viera players using mods to fix the horrific state of the limited races will also come under fire. Zepla at one point made a comment to the effect of if modders can do it then so can SE, with such vagueness perhaps even that could be used to target her should this group choose to go after her.

It won't end with the angry guy you don't like, and given the string of disappointments from 6.1 I don't believe this game needs the bad press of banning its more prominent streamers over this, especially if it is due to a rogue group of individuals who believe they act in the name of justice. I imagine the people who bullied Scottzone off of social media entirely probably felt they were similarly justified. This community has serious issues when it comes to dealing with disagreements.

If you don't like the angry guy who shouts a lot then no one, literally no one is forcing you to interact with him. Have the maturity to walk away and pick your arguments wisely. If you don't like someone commenting about how they wish there was more raid content, do not form brigades much in the same way that is happening now in order to banish them from their streaming platforms/the actual game. Pyro could absolutely be more mature about the way he goes about things but the group acting like internet vigilantes is also in the wrong, and I would rather put up with Pyro who at least can tell me to my face what is going on in his mind than a bunch of people who go after others like it's a hobby, just waiting to ruin the game for me the minute I step out of line.

I've already dealt with a decent share of abuse from people who think that they are justified until suddenly they weren't the minute that a) Summoner became an actual Final Fantasy Summoner instead of a poison mage and b) when Male Viera were added and even the people who hurled the worst insults at me ended up making multiple alts because they were such a massive success with the playerbase. Now that it's happening all over again, I can see the similarities plain as day. I've been criticized multiple times by the people I argued against for not using my main character on the forums, or any other social media really, specifically because I know there are unpoliced segments of the community that would go out of their way to go after me for whatever reason takes their fancy, because goodness knows I have some opinions that are at odds with a lot of people.

First I wanna point out that mass reporting does not give a ban automatically. GMs handle everything on case by case basis and it doesn't matter if 100 people report something, if there is no violation, nothing will happen.
In Pyromancers case however, there is a violation. It was said time and time again add-ons and mods are against ToS, everyone knew it and the community handled it always as like the fight club, don't talk about it, don't show it and you'll be fine. Now more and more people stream ffxiv and many of them came from a gaming community that handled it differently, they refuse to adapt on how this community has it. There was no silent agreement on it anymore, people were openly displaying it and they knew the risk.
In the end it doesn't matter if it's only a QoL add-on or not, if they display it openly, it is what it is. And if SE doesn't stand firm by it's rules they would mean nothing and no one wants that either.

The Jp community uses the playstation much more than NA and EU does and especially now with the race to world first many felt disadvantaged because some players with add-ons do have an advantage. And they are right to feel this way to some extend. It's natural that they feel like SE has to be hold those who openly display them accountable, even if they do it out of spite, the jp community isn't totally in the wrong here for reporting. Even though I feel like it's the wrong way to open this conversation.

And a few words about pyromancer. This dude has issues and tbh if he get's banned I would not feel bad about it. He not only rages at his own chat, which is given some, if not all the time is bait, no if he f's up in a duty he insults his teammates and he once called a fellow WoW content creator a b*tch, because of a misunderstanding. This guy is not a good person and while I would not go out of my way to report him, I feel like the community would have not lost something if he is gone. I doubt other channels like Preach or Zepla would get in trouble as they are more reasonable and positive as an influence.

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Originally Posted by Lunaru_F

I even think I heard him call his chat "Dumbasses who pay my bills," but I may have misheard.

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What he said was that he didn't want people in his chat who aren't even subscribed to treat him like they are paying his bills. Then people started giving him shit about talking down to non-subs. So that just made him even more defensive. But that's not what he was saying. He was trying to say "don't come on my stream and try to tell me what to do like you pay my bills", when those same people aren't even subscribed to his channel.

I saw that portion of the stream and did he overreact? Yes, absolutely. Also, Twitch chat really likes to push peoples' buttons and act ridiculous (generally speaking) and he wasn't having it. So I see both sides, although his rampage wasn't warranted. People in chat started mocking with "oh ban me" and trying to be cute, so he did.

As far as add-ons go with him, I always thought it was problematic (as far as risk) but I don't typically care what other people do if it has no direct effect on me. I liked watching his streams for the MSQ. In fairness, I genuinely don't know if he would have used addons if he hadn't been given the impression by the community that is was ok as long as you use them responsibly (not harassing others, etc).

Can't we alll just be friends? Don't make the birds sad.

Pyromancer hid the vod and then copyright claimed a clip that someone uploaded to YT.
I saw it and let me tell you, this isn't SE or the community's fault, he brought this upon himself, chat was trying to warn him but he started throwing a tantrum, insulting people and even banning some. He claimed that didn't matter that console players can't use mods because he couldn't fathom that people could clear high-end content playing on console.

Kind of funny, it’s okay to make fun and cancel a man who is on medication for anger problems he has admitted to and been pretty open about.

All because he has anger issues? So what if he had one of the “cool mental disorders” you all would take up for him? The man has said before he needs his medication and has anger issues that he struggles with and is trying to work on.

There was no reason to witch hunt ban him, UI mods are bloody harmless. Sure I don't always agree with the man especially his take on console players given I’ve been one since day one in this game. But I’m not going to seek to ban someone because he doesn't agree with me. Some of yall need to go outside and touch anything or you need a come to Jesus moment or somethin…

The amount of people saying “what a toxic piece of trash he shouldnt be streaming with a temper like that.” Man with mental health concerns cant follow his passion?

Maybe you all shouldn’t be allowed to speak without empathy.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Kind of funny, it’s okay to make fun and cancel a man who is on medication for anger problems he has admitted to and been pretty open about.

All because he has anger issues? So what if he had one of the “cool mental disorders” you all would take up for him? The man has said before he needs his medication and has anger issues that he struggles with and is trying to work on.

There was no reason to witch hunt ban him, UI mods are bloody harmless. Sure I don't always agree with the man especially his take on console players given I’ve been one since day one in this game. But I’m not going to seek to ban someone because he doesn't agree with me. Some of yall need to go outside and touch anything or you need a come to Jesus moment or somethin…

The amount of people saying “what a toxic piece of trash he shouldnt be streaming with a temper like that.” Man with mental health concerns cant follow his passion?

Maybe you all shouldn’t be allowed to speak without empathy.

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Mental health issues are not an excuse to abuse other people.

Really? So those with problems should hide their problems, never speak openly about them, never slip up and be perfect all the time no matter the pressure they are put in?

Never make a mistake again. Just because you dont like someone, doesn’t give you the right to judge them. You don’t know what they go through.

I hope you remember that and I hope when you make a mistake, or when you slip up, someone isn’t so quick to judge you for your mistakes, and your slip ups and instead sees you as the person you are.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Kind of funny, it’s okay to make fun and cancel a man who is on medication for anger problems he has admitted to and been pretty open about.

All because he has anger issues? So what if he had one of the “cool mental disorders” you all would take up for him? The man has said before he needs his medication and has anger issues that he struggles with and is trying to work on.

There was no reason to witch hunt ban him, UI mods are bloody harmless. Sure I don't always agree with the man especially his take on console players given I’ve been one since day one in this game. But I’m not going to seek to ban someone because he doesn't agree with me. Some of yall need to go outside and touch anything or you need a come to Jesus moment or somethin…

The amount of people saying “what a toxic piece of trash he shouldnt be streaming with a temper like that.” Man with mental health concerns cant follow his passion?

Maybe you all shouldn’t be allowed to speak without empathy.

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He even said yesterday (paraphrasing) "I became famous in your community for having a meltdown" regarding his WoW rant. You're not wrong, he has always been open about his anger issues. He also said that FFXIV has helped to calm him, which has been noticeable imo. That's not an excuse to be an asshole, but I've seen plenty of times where chat continues to knowingly aggravate him and then be surprised when he retaliated. I've had him snap at me specifically before in chat for a single comment, but I don't take it personally and I didn't make an argument over it. I moved on so he moved on. We don't know each other. He also brought up the point that he doesn't know anyone in his chat. He only know what you show of yourself in chat, so if you are acting like the type of person who is going to keep pissing him off, he doesn't want you there.

The meltdown was unfortunate, but I actually did chuckle a little when people started saying dumb shit like "ban me" in chat so he did. And they kept doing it, so he kept doing it.

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Originally Posted by Darkpaw

Really? So those with problems should hide their problems, never speak openly about them, never slip up and be perfect all the time no matter the pressure they are put in?

Never make a mistake again. Just because you dont like someone, doesn’t give you the right to judge them. You don’t know what they go through.

I hope you remember that and I hope when you make a mistake, or when you slip up, someone isn’t so quick to judge you for your mistakes, and your slip ups and instead sees you as the person you are.

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When you make a mistake, you should expect to deal with the consequences of that mistake. The bigger the mistake, the bigger the consequences. I enjoy watching Pyro when he's having a good time, but he definitely is an asshole sometimes, this is hardly the first time that he's been an asshole to people in his chat. I've been subbed to him though because most of the time he's fine.

I can't imagine what it's like to deal with that chat because there are some dumbasses in there for sure. But, you don't get carte blanch freedom to "make mistakes" without taking responsibility for those mistakes.

Nobody at all said those people have to hide their problems or not speak openly about them. You're straw-manning. Fact of the matter is, you make a mistake, you deal with the consequences. You can explain why the mistake was made, but it doesn't protect you from the consequences, ESPECIALLY whenever you're abusing others. If he were to get angry at the game that would be one thing.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

When you make a mistake, you should expect to deal with the consequences of that mistake. The bigger the mistake, the bigger the consequences. I enjoy watching Pyro when he's having a good time, but he definitely is an asshole sometimes, this is hardly the first time that he's been an asshole to people in his chat. I've been subbed to him though because most of the time he's fine.

I can't imagine what it's like to deal with that chat because there are some dumbasses in there for sure. But, you don't get carte blanch freedom to "make mistakes" without taking responsibility for those mistakes.

Nobody at all said those people have to hide their problems or not speak openly about them. You're straw-manning. Fact of the matter is, you make a mistake, you deal with the consequences. You can explain why the mistake was made, but it doesn't protect you from the consequences, ESPECIALLY whenever you're abusing others. If he were to get angry at the game that would be one thing.

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It's not only the chat tho. While he did the 2nd Endwalker trial for example a healer rescured him into the safe zone and he threw a hissy fit. Often he blames his teammates for his mistakes so much that even his chat doesn't really want him to play with real people anymore. None of these other players deserve to be berated and humiliated on stream just because he can't control himself.

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Originally Posted by VillainQueen

It's not only the chat tho. While he did the 2nd Endwalker trial for example a healer rescured him into the safe zone and he threw a hissy fit. Often he blames his teammates for his mistakes so much that even his chat doesn't really want him to play with real people anymore. None of these other players deserve to be berated and humiliated on stream just because he can't control himself.

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For someone who seems to despite this guy you sure know a lot about the content he makes.

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Originally Posted by Scaramouche

For someone who seems to despite this guy you sure know a lot about the content he makes.

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I don't despite him tbh, I just read about him on reddit today.

I vaguely remember his attempts at using the Trust system, but that didn't go down well. A lot of recent newcomers to the game, especially WoW streamers, are often carried by veteran players who know the ins and outs of every fight. Naturally this wasn't much of a learning curve and his eventual struggles with higher difficulty content came as no surprise, especially in Trusts where the AI will not heal through too many mistakes. It's a solo mode definitely, but it's not an "easy mode" for people who would rather not respect mechanics.

In any case my primary concern is the continued trend of the FFXIV Community's witch hunting. This isn't the benevolent cause they think it is, it's an excuse to get back at people they don't like.

My spouse also has some anger management issues, and has learned over the years that when he's in a rage, the best thing to do is get off the internet, and go outside and ride his bike for a few hours to cool off before he says something he'll regret. Then when he comes back, he's in a much better head space. (He's not a streamer, he's a researcher, and usually it's someone in his department that pissed him off.)

Not sure if Pyro ever learned a similar lesson. Don't let people needle you, and if they do get under your skin, disengage ASAP and stop interacting.

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Originally Posted by VillainQueen

It's not only the chat tho. While he did the 2nd Endwalker trial for example a healer rescured him into the safe zone and he threw a hissy fit. Often he blames his teammates for his mistakes so much that even his chat doesn't really want him to play with real people anymore. None of these other players deserve to be berated and humiliated on stream just because he can't control himself.

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Yup, he has, several times, complained about people that he's playing with as well. It got especially bad in Endwalker, but he didn't want to be rescued and didn't want to listen to overviews of the fights. Then, he would spend a good deal of time on the floor complaining that he had "no idea what was going on." He got pissed at people for walking in front of him in some dungeons because he wanted to take screenshots seemingly not remembering that Twitch has a pretty serious delay. He'd say "Could you move, I want to take a screenshot" and 2 seconds later when they didn't move (because they didn't hear that yet) he'd get pissed at them.

Overall, anger issues are understandable. Hell, I have anger issues. I've broken controllers, keyboards, mice, etc due to anger issues in games. But, people like me that have those issues NEED to learn to not direct them to objects (or internally) NOT the people. There's no excuse for abusing people. Period. You want to defend him for flipping out at the game? some piece of hardware? himself? Go for it. But nobody should excuse abusing another person.

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Originally Posted by VillainQueen

It's not only the chat tho. While he did the 2nd Endwalker trial for example a healer rescured him into the safe zone and he threw a hissy fit. Often he blames his teammates for his mistakes so much that even his chat doesn't really want him to play with real people anymore. None of these other players deserve to be berated and humiliated on stream just because he can't control himself.

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For anyone who actually watches his streams regularly, he doesn't like being Rescued. He focuses really hard on keeping up his Black Mage rotation and typically does a good job of using his own movement abilities to get around as needed. You said yourself in your response below that you don't even know who he is aside from reading on Reddit. I'm not trying to excuse his behavior by any means, but if you're going to comment as fact then you should probably have your own information instead of peddling it second-hand.

Nobody deserves it but i have watched Pyro’s streams and I have seen him apologize to the chat for his outbursts almost every time he has one, ive seen him go back and undo timeouts he realized were uncalled for and apologized for them.

Mistakes don’t define a person, and people who play with him choose to do so, knowing what he deals with, knowing he could rant or pop off.

Being unable to hold back doesn’t mean you’re the asshole, because as some who has struggled and continues to struggle with anger problems in the past believe me you feel a lot worse for a lot longer once you calm down and realize what you’ve done than those who had it happen, you beat yourself up you blame yourself you get angry at yourself because you know you should be better you shouldn’t have reacted that way but you cant help it. You know those who suffer your anger don’t deserve it and you end up hating yourself for doing it.

This is why I said empathy is important. Yes, he has to take responsibility for his actions, no anger issues aren’t a carte blanche excuse to do whatever you want, but it is also not a reason to condemn a man especially if you don’t know what it’s like to have anger issues. To be on medication for them.

You want to say he played with fire for showing off and (arguably) promoting ui mods, that’s one thing. Judging his character as a person as an excuse to justify mass reporting and saying he deserves his ban because you dont like how he is. Is wrong, and abhorrent behavior. His interactions with his chat have nothing to do with his ban, and should not be used to justify it.

Because if it’s okay to justify pyro’s ban for his behavior, than I imagine, Xeno and Arthas will soon be joining him in ban land.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

For anyone who actually watches his streams regularly, he doesn't like being Rescued. He focuses really hard on keeping up his Black Mage rotation and typically does a good job of using his own movement abilities to get around as needed. You said yourself in your response below that you don't even know who he is aside from reading on Reddit. I'm not trying to excuse his behavior by any means, but if you're going to comment as fact then you should probably have your own information instead of peddling it second-hand.

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Given what I watched were some clips of his on compilations and that might always be his worst moments. But these gave up a negative impression and I can see why people target him and not others like Zepla who does not behave in such a way. I just don't think you should treat your audience like this, even tho he might as well has good and nice streams but I don't think that would excuse his abusive moments.

When Pyro started streaming I thought his content was neat. Then he raged once and I stopped following him. The last three times I checked on his videos to see if there was anything good going on, by coincidence or not he was raging on stream about one thing or another.

If I were one of his invested viewers and he was calling me an idiot on his stream I’d report him too. Alas I don’t watch people that treat others this way but it’s not surprising people are reporting him after viewing that video on YouTube someone posted here.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

The irony in crying about "witch hunts" while attempting to generate a witch hunt yourself against an entire community of people.

"Noooooo don't ban my heckin' favorite streamer who's totally my best friend I donated him my weekly paycheck and he still banned me for not sucking up to him hard enough, but TAKE DOWN THAT ENTIRE COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE FOR THE CRIME OF TRYING TO GET SE TO ENFORCE THEIR OWN RULES, THEY'RE PURE EVIL AND DESERVE TO BE SILENCED"

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To give credit though, 4chan and 5chan ARE the cesspools of the internet that like to spread evil and chaos whenever possible.

Are you saying its okay that streamers should be above the rules of the game because they advertise for it though?

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Originally Posted by Raim

Are you saying its okay that streamers should be above the rules of the game because they advertise for it though?

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Kaiyoko actually said that when Arthas got a suspension from flamming a blm via ACT

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Originally Posted by Raim

Are you saying its okay that streamers should be above the rules of the game because they advertise for it though?

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Nobody is saying that. Quite the opposite. You make an example out of them, you temporarily ban them to show that "nobody" is above the rules. You have to. But, you don't ever permanently ban free advertising.

It has to be enough to show that you're serious, but not enough to lose that. Otherwise, people will 100% know that there is favoritism. Like with Twitch and Pokemane.

Okay, time for a personal opinion breakdown.

Do I like Pyromancer? Yes, actually. I wouldn't have donated literally hundreds of subs to his channel otherwise.

Do I condone Pyromancer's more erratic and upsetting behavior? No. I don't know the man personally so I don't know the extent of what he has to struggle with - but if you're working in the public sector you need to try your best not to have a major episode in conflict with your audience, regardless of the circumstances behind your performance.

Do I think Pyromancer is in the wrong for his violation the TOS. Yes. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. 3rd party tools are a violation of ToS. He puts his account at risk for broadcasting it. If he gets suspended or banned because of it, that's ultimately on him. It's nice that in the best of times people can stick their necks into the guillotine and trust that people won't pull the lever, but these are not the best of times.

Do I agree with Pyromancer being persecuted for his use of shaders and mods like chat bubbles? No. I think it's a minor thing, and presume most people realize that. The internet tends to put a microscope on the most obscene and hyperbolic of people and statements. The most prominent mod I've seen that I'd like to see implemented in the current UI are the Chat Bubbles. I think they'd be a great addition to the game for players, especially seeming they exist for NPCs as is. That said, till it's in the game officially, using it is a risk, I don't recommend it.

This isn't the first time the good faith between players and developers were strained because of the bad actors among the players. These forums alone are often an example of bad faith actors ruining things for others. But there is no need. Those who are violating the ToS in good faith (meaning they're not trying to harm nothing or take advantage above other players, or gain an edge in fights. They're just trying to improve their personal experience), in my opinion suffer the most when this relationship is strained.

I don't hold judgement against these people. They are breaking the rules but they're not hurting/judging anyone. The risk is theirs to take if it matters that much to them. But it IS a risk, especially in this climate. The rules are clear, even if some of those bad faith actors want to take the statements to their hyperbolic extremes. If you don't want to take a risk for your account. Don't. Take. The. Risk. Use common sense and move on.

Otherwise, there are some people with some real vendettas out there that will take this upset over current events and see just how draconian they can get the GMs to be over the rules.

I still count this as part of the inevitable culture clash we get every time we get a larger wave of people adopting the game at a time. It's not the first time I've had to make statements to these effects either. Hopefully things will calm down soon and actions will get focused on the most egregious people using hacks and cheats.

You guys are just making this worse.

The rules have not changed. How SE enforces those rules has not changed. It has always been a "don't ask don't tell" situation.

Bringing ToS violations to SE's attention forces them to act on them, because those same rules that prohibit UI overlays also prohibit botting, hacking, and add ons that give an unfair advantage such as automated callouts and markers, etc. and if they don't act on all reports, they can't justifiably act on any of them.

So... stop bringing attention to them.

Seriously, this whole debate, the multiple threads, namedropping streamers, the countless petulant, snarky jibes comparing innocuous Discord to literal games hacks, or accusing SE of being worse than the Nazis. Stop it.

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Originally Posted by Klytania

Wouldn't call him unhinged. He was making objective points about how console is worse than PC and I'm guessing hes got a lot of console players that watch him, and he got irritated by them not understanding his point.

Though I will say he gets baited really easily.

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You only saw the clip someone posted of 30 minute after his main rage. This stuff is literally 30% of his rage meter from the same day, when he was winding down how mad he was. And this is how it looked. Lol. He was absolutely closer to unhinged than you realize.

The topic about consoles was its own thing, and that started because someone said "console players can't use them so it's a disadvantage" and he said "do many people even play on console?" and he never read the chats telling him about the JP population being primarily console etc. Or conveniently ignored it, no way to know.


But before, he was RAGING at ANYONE who posed ANY question to his stance on "my addons don't give an advantage, so it's stupid to not allow me to use them". Anything you said that wasn't literally requoting that, ban and yell. Literally.

It was worse than that too honestly, the conversation from many people with good faith answering his questions were getting banned too, actually just flipping out hardcore. I've watched him quite a bit, and I know he's a bit of a rager because I knew him in WoW a bit too so it never was super surprising but today was genuinely the worst he's lashed at his chat that I've seen. Way worse than the clip that got posted (that he since copyright striked)

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Originally Posted by Ath192

When Pyro started streaming I thought his content was neat. Then he raged once and I stopped following him. The last three times I checked on his videos to see if there was anything good going on, by coincidence or not he was raging on stream about one thing or another.

If I were one of his invested viewers and he was calling me an idiot on his stream I’d report him too. Alas I don’t watch people that treat others this way but it’s not surprising people are reporting him after viewing that video on YouTube someone posted here.

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I'm in pretty much the same boat tbh. He's just not fun to watch when it takes him 2 hours of ranting to start every stream, especially the last one where he flat out said he hates console players.
None of this however justifies anyone in reporting him for using harmless mods.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

You guys are just making this worse.

The rules have not changed. How SE enforces those rules has not changed. It has always been a "don't ask don't tell" situation.

Bringing ToS violations to SE's attention forces them to act on them, because those same rules that prohibit UI overlays also prohibit botting, hacking, and add ons that give an unfair advantage such as automated callouts and markers, etc. and if they don't act on all reports, they can't justifiably act on any of them.

So... stop bringing attention to them.

Seriously, this whole debate, the multiple threads, namedropping streamers, the countless petulant, snarky jibes comparing innocuous Discord to literal games hacks, or accusing SE of being worse than the Nazis. Stop it.

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You're acting as if you can stuff the cat back in the bag. Sorry but that's now the system operates. Attention has been drawn. The discussion is here. Suddenly crying "Shh!" isn't going to suddenly change the facts. Take a moment and calm down. It's worth the discussion to weigh in on what we do with the extremes in this situation.

Calm people draw better distinctions in all situations. Regardless there are a lot of streamers who are far more prominent and they're likely not to duck and cover, even against recommendation. I expect a good number of people are going to wind up with suspensions and take a much needed break from FFXIV, before coming back to lots of people welcoming them. That too, is a reality for many.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

You're acting as if you can stuff the cat back in the bag. Sorry but that's now the system operates. Attention has been drawn. The discussion is here. Suddenly crying "Shh!" isn't going to suddenly change the facts. Take a moment and calm down. It's worth the discussion to weigh in on what we do with the extremes in this situation.

Calm people draw better distinctions in all situations. Regardless there are a lot of streamers who are far more prominent and they're likely not to duck and cover, even against recommendation. I expect a good number of people are going to wind up with suspensions and take a much needed break from FFXIV, before coming back to lots of people welcoming them. That too, is a reality for many.

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I haven't seen any calm discussions about this. Just reams and reams of "lol you have to ban everyone for using discord kekekek SE has gone to shit poggers" when literally nothing has changed apart from a bunch of people reported one high-profile streamer. It's literally screaming that the sky is falling.

At the very least, we should not be namedropping streamers in the context of what mods they're using.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I haven't seen any calm discussions about this. Just reams and reams of "lol you have to ban everyone for using discord kekekek SE has gone to shit poggers"

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A fair criticism, though some will enviably disagree with you there.

I'm more than willing to engage you on the topic in a balanced manner if you're up for it. I did post a breakdown on my opinions on the matter if you wanna look up and reply to them. I do think it's important to discuss the matter of the 'don't ask don't tell' policy and how it efects both the average player and content creators.

Right now, I'm emotionally divided but personally forced to acknowledge that Streamers and other public figures perhaps are to be held to a higher standard, although I'm not sure what that standard should be. "Don't talk about it." Relies on my previous discussed good faith between the players themselves and the game developers/game masters and we had that. But it unfortunately fostered people edging the rules and poking the bear until we got what we have now.

Are we back down to the point where content creators can't show it at all? There is a grey area we do have to maintain but 'don't talk about it' can be synonymous to 'don't show it' . And most content creators don't use tools so much as cosmetics.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

A fair criticism, though some will enviably disagree with you there.

I'm more than willing to engage you on the topic in a balanced manner if you're up for it. I did post a breakdown on my opinions on the matter if you wanna look up and reply to them. I do think it's important to discuss the matter of the 'don't ask don't tell' policy and how it efects both the average player and content creators.

Right now, I'm emotionally divided but personally forced to acknowledge that Streamers and other public figures perhaps are to be held to a higher standard, although I'm not sure what that standard should be. "Don't talk about it." Relies on my previous discussed good faith between the players themselves and the game developers/game masters and we had that. But it unfortunately fostered people edging the rules and poking the bear until we got what we have now.

Are we back down to the point where content creators can't show it at all? There is a grey area we do have to maintain but 'don't talk about it' can be synonymous to 'don't show it' . And most content creators don't use tools so much as cosmetics.

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I just don't think there's much to discuss. "Don't talk about it" is the best situation to be in. The alternatives are, they either hire a ton more staff to clamp down on all third party modifications which would be highly controversial and costly to them, or they allow all third party programs like WoW and we end up alienating the entire console base.
This is the ideal middle ground.
I appreciate it affects streamers differently, because they are painting a target on themselves. So yes, they do have to be held to a higher standard. That's not something that's unfairly forced upon them, it's just a fact that they sign up for, in much the same way that they sign up to being publicly judged in every other aspect of their content creation.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I just don't think there's much to discuss. "Don't talk about it" is the best situation to be in. The alternatives are, they either hire a ton more staff to clamp down on all third party modifications which would be highly controversial and costly to them, or they allow all third party programs like WoW and we end up alienating the entire console base.
This is the ideal middle ground.
I appreciate it affects streamers differently, because they are painting a target on themselves. So yes, they do have to be held to a higher standard. That's not something that's unfairly forced upon them, it's just a fact that they sign up for, in much the same way that they sign up to being publicly judged in every other aspect of their content creation.

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Their showing of it does mark them as being complicit in the use of 3rd party tools as a whole, yes. I can see that perspective.

But there's a secondary issue here being presented. The use of Third party tools being tolerated on the level they are perhaps calming the more potentially vocal and influential elements of the base to pressuring the Developers to implement minor, but equally important quality of life improvements to the game. Again, I champion the idea of a chat bubble. But so long as 'people who don't talk about it' sate themselves with the 3rd party tool that provides it, the less we get an outpouring of support for it to actually be available in game for players.

See, I keep going back and forth on this issue because of these many myriad factors, and I think that's why we revisit this conflict periodically. Well, that and competitive endeavors like Ultimates and PVP.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I just don't think there's much to discuss. "Don't talk about it" is the best situation to be in. The alternatives are, they either hire a ton more staff to clamp down on all third party modifications which would be highly controversial and costly to them, or they allow all third party programs like WoW and we end up alienating the entire console base.
This is the ideal middle ground.
I appreciate it affects streamers differently, because they are painting a target on themselves. So yes, they do have to be held to a higher standard. That's not something that's unfairly forced upon them, it's just a fact that they sign up for, in much the same way that they sign up to being publicly judged in every other aspect of their content creation.

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Curious how you think people are supposed to not talk about it when certain streamers are openly saying "I am going to stream this and talk about this anyway", such as the reason for this thread. Pyro quite literally said "I refuse to stop using (insert mod launcher name)" and then raging at people over an hour over multiple things, one of which was the console thing people are seeing because that's the only footage that's been revealed since he deleted his vod. This wasn't brought on him, some of these people are actively taking a stance about this.

Not talking about the very public actions taking place doesn't do anything really

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Their showing of it does mark them as being complicit in the use of 3rd party tools as a whole, yes. I can see that perspective.

But there's a secondary issue here being presented. The use of Third party tools being tolerated on the level they are perhaps calming the more potentially vocal and influential elements of the base to pressuring the Developers to implement minor, but equally important quality of life improvements to the game. Again, I champion the idea of a chat bubble. But so long as 'people who don't talk about it' sate themselves with the 3rd party tool that provides it, the less we get an outpouring of support for it to actually be available in game for players.

See, I keep going back and forth on this issue because of these many myriad factors, and I think that's why we revisit this conflict periodically. Well, that and competitive endeavors like Ultimates and PVP.

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There is no end to the potential harmless, cosmetic UI mods that other people can create for this game, and what SE themselves will have the time and resources to implement will not ever scratch the surface of what is out there.
While some of it could or even should be in the base game, they will never get all of it in there. Not only are there multitudes more people who can create mods than SE could employ, but SE have to hold their features to a higher standard. I've seen so many mods that just bug out and cause hideous graphical glitches that the users seemingly don't care about. Even Pyro has some kind of countdown cosmetic that just creates a big black square over a players head.
So using 'what is available as a mod' as justification for what 'should be in the base game' is never going to be a valid avenue. If it stands on it's own merits then it's worth pushing for, like chat bubbles, but at the same time, if it doesn't mesh with the games design and what the creators want for the game, it's not going to happen.

There's also the entirely valid argument that the creators do not want to imitate WoW to much, and chat bubbles could fall into that.
I've seen a lot of proposed UI changes over the last few days, and frankly, 90% of them are hideous recreations of WoW mods, which are a total mess.