Scholar is a horribly designed job and shows zero thought goes into healer design

I benched my SCH for SGE the changes to Aetherglow and other stuff just made playing unfun

I'm one of those people thats new to SCH and is currently 'trying' to main it, I ofcourse never got to see it in its 'heyday'.

Alot of those points the OP made are exactly how I feel, when I look at some of my skills I wonder why they are even there. They dumbed down the SMN class and reduced their amount of keybinds but left the SCH with 258972590825 skills still that are all required and are important in a way (honestly would've prefered they combined some of the skills to make me have to press less but ya.. Whispering Dawn & Fey Blessing could've been 1 skill.. sort've like Medica for example), so learning this class is abit of a mess of confusion at the start until you begin to get the grasp of what everything does (thats if you stuck with it this long and didn't say peace-out bois), which takes alot longer than the other healer jobs... and that wouldn't be so bad, I mean a class being difficult is fun to learn, but when the classes outdated kit is the problem and its punishing you, then it sort've strips away any rewarding feeling you would get from finally learning to play it well because you have to put up with so much unnecessary shit in order to make it function.

Its going to be no surprise that currently, out of all skills, Dissipation is n.1 on my most annoying list. Doing any bosses at all in this game, requires us to park our little fairy-boo in a nice central position in the boss zone, because having her follow after your ass constantly while you move, leads to cast interuption and out-of-range issues.. and as this skill gives back aetherflow, it would be stupid not to use.. but the duration of how long its gone for seems way too long for what you get in return man, when it finally comes back, it doesn't go back to its preivous assigned position that it was in before hand, you have to take a moment to reposition it..:(

The whole fairy gauge having only 1 skill.. Aetherpact, which basically disables 3+ other skills while you have it on is kinda.. ya wtf man..

I honestly don't know why they just left Eos & Selene in after the changes as basically just a 'fairy glam'

And lastly, with Seraph, why can't she not just eventually replace Eos/Selene at 90 Q.Q Why make her a skill with a cd :(

Sort've wish we had more skills that could give back aetherflow :/

I don't understand why Miasma and Bane were even taken away when Scholar is essentially the DoT healer class. It should be always keeping up its DoTs on its enemies while simultaneously weaving in heal barriers and buffs to party members. The way it is now, it's far too gutted and has really nothing new going for it.

What really irks me about SCH, is that when i first signed up for FFXIV, i was hoping that SCH would be the kind of Healer that is by default, very underperforming on a surface level, but when you use your stuff right, it can compensate for this Weakness, since thats what a Tactician should be all about (using limited Ressources as efficient as possible), right?

Personally, i wish that Seraph shouldnt even be a thing. I think its just a poor design choice to make the Job look flashy with no substance, other than overhealing all day every day. Instead, i wished that SCH strengh, would be the perfect use of using two different Fairies that serve for completely different purposes and the actual "trump card" of SCH, would be the very limited use of both Fairies at once.


But a Man can only dream(and complain on the Forums all day) about Final Fantasy 14 having any depth in Gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Anhra

What really irks me about SCH, is that when i first signed up for FFXIV, i was hoping that SCH would be the kind of Healer that is by default, very underperforming on a surface level, but when you use your stuff right, it can compensate for this Weakness, since thats what a Tactician should be all about (using limited Ressources as efficient as possible), right?

Personally, i wish that Seraph shouldnt even be a thing. I think its just a poor design choice to make the Job look flashy with no substance, other than overhealing all day every day. Instead, i wished that SCH strengh, would be the perfect use of using two different Fairies that serve for completely different purposes and the actual "trump card" of SCH, would be the very limited use of both Fairies at once.


But a Man can only dream(and complain on the Forums all day) about Final Fantasy 14 having any depth in Gameplay.

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In regards to Seraph, I think it's an especially lazy skill if it's meant to make SCH look flashy, considering Seraph was just taken from SCH's LB3. (where she's still summoned for some reason? even though we can summon her regularly without limit break?)
They did the same with Art of War being a reused PvP skill, it just reeks of the laziness and neglect that healers get. They can't even really bother to try to hide SCH's problems with flash too, considering Ruin II and Energy Drain have the worst, most dead-fish looking animations out of any job. They're SO bad, and while I'd much rather them put time and development into how SCH plays than updating old skills, it still should be mentioned that SCH is lacking even the nice coat of paint that they use to hide issues with other jobs.

If they add a damage skill, i would prefer if its fairy oriented. As in, the fairy does a constant AoE around it (this state is a toggle button to prevent accidental triggering of enemies). And by using the pet positioning buttons you can control where the damage will be done.

Yes, it will make it a lot harder to control this damage, but can also be very rewarding since there are a few more abilities that can benefit a lot from this control.

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Originally Posted by Soge01

I don't understand why Miasma and Bane were even taken away when Scholar is essentially the DoT healer class. It should be always keeping up its DoTs on its enemies while simultaneously weaving in heal barriers and buffs to party members. The way it is now, it's far too gutted and has really nothing new going for it.

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Was SMN taking those before now. However with the endwalker changes they should look at merging some SCH abilities together ans give the DoTs back to SCH instead.

Healers as a whole need fixing to be able to DPS and heal, the shadowbringers changes are wholly unpopular with healers.

SCH just feels incredibly clunky ever seen the Aetherflow changes the class has gone downhill.

Maybe after the Astro major adjustments/ rework wewill finally get a sch rework.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Maybe after the Astro major adjustments/ rework wewill finally get a sch rework.

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You say this with such optimize as though we don't already know that SE's idea of a "rework" is just to remove the soul of a job and make it into a shell of itself, which AST has already lost more of its soul than any other healer.

At this point, I fear an AST rework would be little more than removing Minor Arcana, removing 4 of the 6 cards to make it only 1 card for Melee/Ranged each and seals to be removed to make Astrodyne just a 2 minute CD while the BS that is Undraw remains for some godforsaken reason.

the guy at the end of the first page:

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You are also pointing out that numbers on reporting websites show the SCH is capable of healing, which is their role.

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unironically using "um, it's called HEALER" as an argument. this is a lmao.

I didn't play sch till this expansion, I hated it previously and loved my astro from SB through to start of EW where I dropped it in favour of sch after I couldn't take the years of soul ripping they did to my ast. I enjoy SCH more than AST atm, I enjoy expedience (sad it was nerfed the 20s sprint was fun), I like using the fairy and seeing how I can get away with not using my aetherflow to heal. But like every healer the dps rotation is boring and anything below savage is boring because there is no challenging healing to be done.

Can't speak for how sch used to be that much besides having to click the pet bar for fairy actions was fucking awful and idk why people liked that. It wouldn't be an issue if you could give the fairy abilities keybinds but you couldn't. I found sch to be awfully clunky when I did give it a go in late SB. But I was new to the game. I have fingies crossed for my astro rework in 6.2... but I half expect it to just be the final nail in the coffin for me ever healing again.

I would be happy if we just had Miasma and Bane back. I still have Miasma and Miasma 2 on my hotbar even after all these years, just waiting to get them back.

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Originally Posted by LuminaLumi

I would be happy if we just had Miasma and Bane back. I still have Miasma and Miasma 2 on my hotbar even after all these years, just waiting to get them back.

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I also want shadow flare back tbh

Just give back all sch's dps abilities please

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Originally Posted by NemuNemu14

I also want shadow flare back tbh

Just give back all sch's dps abilities please

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SCH is the only job in the entire game that is an evolution of a different role--the only job that begins as a DPS and transforms into a Healer. It makes perfect sense why it was so hyper aggressive in its golden years of ARR and HW and entirely bizarre that it's entire identity has been taken away from it. I also hate how unintuitive its connection to ACN has become. I get that that job split of SMN and SCH has been viewed as a massive mistake, but it's just sloppy how forgotten that relationship is to the point where a new player picking up ACN for the first time has to experience so much whiplash when unlocking SCH that their neck snaps.

I know SMN isn't in the hottest spots right now after its rework, but I do think it has the right foundation. It just feels incomplete rather than poorly thought out. I think it could be really advantageous to rethink of SCH's design by looking at ACN's first 30 levels as a basis for how to rethink the faerie and evolve the job from that point forward.

There's honestly zero functional reason that Fey Union couldn't work exactly like Kardia now. You do damage, your fairy heals your Unioned target.

Indomitability could have your fairy fire off their Fey Illumination (+ healing) just like Physis

Some other ability could trigger Fey Whisper.

Point is, Sage has all of these abilities that do two things at once for a single button press and SCH has to manually push them because of an outdated job fantasy that the FFXIV developers abandoned a LONG time ago.

My biggest gripe beyond the One button spam with scholar is the Energy Drain optimization aspect of it.

Still, after recent discussions I have gained a new appreciation for the strategy around it, and I will admit that removing SCH's ability to trade excess healing for damage (Which is very dependant on coordination with your co-healer to maximize, meaning this only works in very specific content.) is a big part of the skill ceiling of the job and thus gives it a small mesure of depth other healers do not have.

I still don't like how the "choice" of using AF for healing essentially feels awful because you're losing personal DPS for it and how that turns Disspation into a DPS CD you use whenever its available and aligns with raid buffs.

How delusional of me would it be to hope for any kind of acknowledgment about healer, specifically scholar feedback because of threads like this, during the second 6.2 live letter?

With the ast rework postponed because "It was too much that was needed" I am even more worried about the state of healers in the game.

Crit and direct hit adjustments regarding skills that guarantee a crit/dh hit or buffs like chain stratagem/litany etc seem fine at first but we will have to see what they do with it.

+1 to OP

It's kinda ironic that the pvp version (the scholar archetype they'd like to implement if they didn't have PvE restrictions) is all about spreading dots and buffs. Yet they can't use bane anymore in PvE and deploy tactics is on such a long cd for just a slightly beefier version of succor...

They could combine it into 1 button like pvp if button bloat is their issue (target ally to spread galvanize, target enemy to spread biolysis) They could also make chain strategem get deployed as well to make it useful in aoe situations.

Maybe make energy drain 30s recast but buff the next deployed action (adlo gains a slight damage boost like ast cards and biolysis gains a stronger potency etc.)
Sage proved that having no dps attack to spend stacks on works perfectly fine.

Also I'm not sure why Ruin II survived any revisions, just proves that they don't really do that for the Job. It has a lot of potential but it feels really neglected by the dev team.

SCH used to be so fun in 4.0--then Yoshi P. showed up with his 'ideas' about some crap called 'pure healing.'

Sch should be the one getting the complete rework and Ast should be getting the minor rework. Scholar is in need of it badly.

Scholar is the best designed healer at the moment. Unfortunately this isn’t saying much.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Scholar is the best designed healer at the moment. Unfortunately this isn’t saying much.

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Hm...not really?

It's not the worst designed - that is definitely AST - but the Broil IV 1.5 sec cast really broke up a lot of SCH's design. "How much can I not heal and use my resource for slightly higher DPS" is something all the Healers already do, so "Energy Drain optimization" isn't necessarily an indicator of the best design. Though I do think SCH is good at having all the bases covered and an answer to everything.

I'm not sure which I would say is the best designed at the moment, though. Probably SGE, but I dunno.

Either way, I do kind of agree that it's not the WORST one right now.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Scholar is the best designed healer at the moment. Unfortunately this isn’t saying much.

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I'm going to post a hot take...WHM is the best designed healer atm. Lilies are GCDs and thus break up the 1 monotony, and you get a reward for actively using them in the form of big damage. WHM's kit always feels relevant, compared to SCH where quite a few moves can be completely forgotten due to how unneeded they are in most content. It's sad that I use WHM more than SCH these days, and I've mained SCH as a healer since 2.0.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I'm going to post a hot take...WHM is the best designed healer atm. Lilies are GCDs and thus break up the 1 monotony, and you get a reward for actively using them in the form of big damage. WHM's kit always feels relevant, compared to SCH where quite a few moves can be completely forgotten due to how unneeded they are in most content. It's sad that I use WHM more than SCH these days, and I've mained SCH as a healer since 2.0.

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I *completely* disagree with this take, but you know I do.

WHM is the dark hole of horrid healer design that dragged the whole role into the mess it's in right now. Lilies are the nadir of choice-free, safe, braincell-b-gone gauge design. WHM's design encourages farting out whatever you want, whenever, with no punishments for getting anything "wrong". Childproofing is the platonic ideal at the summit of the design, and the current state of the healer role is the result of that.

Where are the c h o i c e s. Your reward for playing efficiently is Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare. Hideous. Soporific. Most boring healer design template I've ever seen curse a class paradigm.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I *completely* disagree with this take, but you know I do.

WHM is the dark hole of horrid healer design that dragged the whole role into the mess it's in right now. Lilies are the nadir of choice-free, safe, braincell-b-gone gauge design. WHM's design encourages farting out whatever you want, whenever, with no punishments for getting anything "wrong". Childproofing is the platonic ideal at the summit of the design, and the current state of the healer role is the result of that.

Where are the c h o i c e s. Your reward for playing efficiently is Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare Glare. Hideous. Soporific. Most boring healer design template I've ever seen curse a class paradigm.

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The sad part is it's still more enjoyable than SCH atm. There are a number of buttons I rarely if ever press on SCH because outside of higher end difficult content, they're not needed at all. Damage (as we've all noted) is so low to where you can barely press anything and heal up the group. Tanks rarely need our assistance these days, and when they do we have Excog for that. Seraph, as wonderful as she is, is unneeded most of the time because nothing ever hits hard enough for her, and the few times things do, there's such a gap before the next attack that its easily healed back up. As much as I love playing SCH, we are boring as sin right now and have too many unneeded moves outside of EXs, Deep Dungeon, and Savage.

Tbh I find SGE the best designed healer atm. Very good, clean, and efficient.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I'm going to post a hot take...WHM is the best designed healer atm. Lilies are GCDs and thus break up the 1 monotony, and you get a reward for actively using them in the form of big damage. WHM's kit always feels relevant, compared to SCH where quite a few moves can be completely forgotten due to how unneeded they are in most content. It's sad that I use WHM more than SCH these days, and I've mained SCH as a healer since 2.0.

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I was gonna say it, but knew I'd be attacked if I did. :) Thanks for jumping on that grenade.

Though personally, I think SGE may be SLIGHTLY better designed. I love WHM, but Lilies don't affect all GCD heals, meaning you still ignore a large portion of your toolkit. Though usually not directly (the base forms), SGE can get some use out of the Eukrasia versions of its base heals for the barrier effects in some cases, as well as using it during downtime (like RDM with Vercure Dualcast optimizing during phase transitions) for damage neutral Toxicons. And SGE's oGCDs are basically more polished/useable versions of SCH's, not least of which because it's actually allowed to use Addersgall on heals/mitigation where SCH is not unless you're bad or progging. Panhamia is a better Seraph/Consolation (and quicker to apply), Physis is a better Whispering Dawn (if you don't need remote use), Plegma is a better Ruin 2 (since boss hitboxes are gigantic), etc etc.

I do consider WHM right behind it, though. If they ever reworked WHM to where ALL GCD heals nourished the Blood Lily, then it would be the best one, I think.

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Originally Posted by Elucesta

Tbh I find SGE the best designed healer atm. Very good, clean, and efficient.

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Agreed.

I like WHM better, but I have to give it to SGE as being the best designed of the bunch.

I actually agree on WHM being the best designed healer point, sorry Semi :o

It's kit is reasonably cohesive, it actually goes some way to embracing the content meta of valuing DPS above all else and there's a decent amount of interactivity between the various aspects of it's abilities and cooldowns. Nothing clashes (If you put stylistic choices aside at least) and it doesn't feel too badly bloated.

Predictably one facet of the game that hurts it is the overall lack of incoming damage for much of the game which causes it to spend too much time spamming glare/holy relative to the rest of it's kit but IMO the biggest problem with WHM is actually the 2.5 second GCD.

I'm pretty confident that if FFXIV had a 1.5 second GCD like WoW, WHM would actually be pretty damn good to play in moderately challenging content and upwards.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I actually agree on WHM being the best designed healer point, sorry Semi :o

It's kit is reasonably cohesive, it actually goes some way to embracing the content meta of valuing DPS above all else and there's a decent amount of interactivity between the various aspects of it's abilities and cooldowns. Nothing clashes (If you put stylistic choices aside at least) and it doesn't feel too badly bloated.

Predictably one facet of the game that hurts it is the overall lack of incoming damage for much of the game which causes it to spend too much time spamming glare/holy relative to the rest of it's kit but IMO the biggest problem with WHM is actually the 2.5 second GCD.

I'm pretty confident that if FFXIV had a 1.5 second GCD like WoW, WHM would actually be pretty damn good to play in moderately challenging content and upwards.

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Yeah, we've disagreed on that for a while. I think WHM's kit has the same problems that the entire role does: a bunch of redundant healing abilities that are far too close to being identical for my liking. A snoozeathon of a downtime kit. A skill ceiling that funnels you toward spamming a single button over and over again- a reward that's just boring.

I always side-eye when someone says WHM is the "best" designed, because...I think they're all designed like various flavors of dog vomit. And calling WHM the "best" one leads to everyone's favorite solution: yeah, let's leave all of the attendant problems with current healer design on WHM and actually design fun into the other three! That's the best way forward! Vomit is suddenly okay when WHM has to swim in it. ~*~

Edit:
WHM is like the crap mutant Through A Mirror Darkly version of BLM. Black Mage is the barebones zero-utility member of the caster DPS...but it's fun. It has a niche (raw damage output). It's got a mile-high skill ceiling. Its intended use is straightforward with little bloat, but it affords so many opportunities for messing up, recovery, learning opportunities, and skill-building. It's the most iconic of the three casters, but it's not the designated easy job for beginners. You *can* play it like a Blizzard Wizard or a Fire spammer and put out quite mediocre damage, and that'll drag you through quite a lot of content.

In contrast, WHM takes BLM's no-frills, tacks on SMN's infinite safety nets, and tops this pot of gruel off with a real winner of an identity: "well, it's got...uh...it has two GCD heals that refund damage! And it can clear content!" How fun. It's the easy one! Skill ceilings are for everyone else. WHM gets to be the one that...has the highest population!

There was a real opportunity to grow it into the BLM of the role, once upon a time. Now it's the Glarespammy easy one. Real fun to take through MSQ solo duties, wheeeee.

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Originally Posted by Elucesta

Tbh I find SGE the best designed healer atm. Very good, clean, and efficient.

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100% agreed. It takes all of the clunkiness that scholar had (what many say is the best designed healer) and literally improved on everything.

People being out of Sacred Soil Range? Meh We'll center it on the healers so they can control the placement better AND give it 5 more yard radius.

People made embrace macros to get the fairy to heal when a tank was above 80% or to control who got fairy heals? We'll take that away from SCH but give it to SGE via Kardia.

Healing AND mitigation? We'll combine them in one button (multiple of them) for Sage.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

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Not everyone finds BLM fun. If find it to be the single most un-fun Job in the entire game. So much bloat, a rotation that's all over the place and doesn't make sense (it "makes sense" on a base level like RDM does "Oh, so you're trying to do this...", but trying to actually do it optimally makes no sense "You...use an ETHER here?!?"). And hey, WHM did SMN's infinite safety nets before they were cool. SMN stole the paradigm, not the other way around. :)

Most WHM players probably don't want it to be BLM. (also, for all the talk of solo duties...the majority of most people's playtime isn't spent in solo duties...)

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Design-wise, WHM's design is good. I still think SGE is a bit better, but WHM's does what it's supposed to do. It's not supposed to be BLM, as no WHM at any point in FF history has been like BLM.

SGE, on the other hand, completely abandons everything SGE is supposed to be...and somehow still turns out to be a pretty solid design.

SGE is great to play, but too easy for its own good. It has more healing than a SCH, has more DPS than a SCH, has more mitigation than a SCH. The job ends up becoming too forgiving so I can see ppl like it more than SCH.

They will be forced to overhaul SCH if they make SGE even more forgiving in 7.0.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

It's not supposed to be BLM, as no WHM at any point in FF history has been like BLM.

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The En- spells made whomever the WHM applied it to, do a followup spell that did BLM magic or applied that element to their weapon and whenever there was a physical attack it did damage. (XI, XIII, some spin-offs). Example, Enthunder would cause thunder damage after a physical attack, it would be cool to resee them as actions as it is also in this game but an enemy thing, probably won't happen as they've done away with the element system. (Would be interesting if they re-added it in this perspective). Regardless, what you said may hold some precipice but isn't 100% true.

To be fair also, most games in the series were turn-based and required you to use healing. "White mages" also included some mixture of another class(see any whm after V). The earlier iterations( before V) of the series whms place was locked in given white mage was the only answer to AoE healing or the best one (it could stand alone). In this game, that isn't true given other classes can heal (even ones that aren't healers)
In this game:
- Healing is required very little
- Some of the more iconic spells to the class have been removed from white mage or aren't a thing: Haste, Slow, Shell, Protect, Dispel (Not a thing {In Bozja(?)})
- Nothing has been added to fill in gaps
- White Magic does not answer anything by its lonesome like it does in for the rest of the series [so it makes for a bad comparison when you compare the rest of the series to the current white mage in 14]. Example: NulTide/Barwater blocking water damage, that's not a thing here.
- Healer downtime is a real thing, 1 button press.

WHM in its current state in 14 is unlike any WHM in the series (in a bad way) and the healers in general TBH hold the same regard. Healing is a joke in this game and, as mentioned, is required infrequently enough to make it unjustifiable to have as many heal buttons as the healers do currently.

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Originally Posted by Katish

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WHM in XIII is Medic, not Synergist. Synergist had the En spells, not Medic. Some spin offs and XI (where RDM did it better) aren't exactly the best cases. Also...doesn't WHM in XI only have the Holy element En spell?

It has BAR spells, like Barthunder. Maybe that's what you're thinking of?

True that many were turn based, but not all of them have been.

WHM in its current state is like many other WHMs in the series. If anything, it's far more offensive.

Many WHM Jobs have Cure spells, Protect/Shell (sometimes -ga versions for AOE, sometimes both at once with Wall), Raise (Life/Life 2/Reraise), Regen, Esuna, and Holy and that's it. That's FFTactics WHM right there. X-2 has Reflect, Dispell, and Haste/-ega. FF3's, origin of the Job system, White Mage didn't have Shell, Raise 2, Reraise, but did have Libra, Aero/-ga, Stone/-a, Sight (opens the world map...how novel), Teleport (which we all have), and stat effects Toad, Mini, Confuse, Silence, and Poisona to specifically cure Poison at low levels when the player didn't have Esuna. FF5, second game to use the Job system, had a WHM that added Blink to its spell list but dropped Aero/Stone magics, but picked up Arise (Life 2). FF4's Rosa adds Hold (stun), Slow, and Float (mainly used in two dungeons to prevent damage from stepping on damaging tiles in the non-battle environment maps); she also has Pray (chance of a party heal or failure doing nothing) and Aim (when using a bow, making a slower attack that is guaranteed not to miss). Porom from the same game, the other White Mage, has the same spells, does not have Pray or Aim, instead having Cry (makes enemies easier to steal from) and Twincast (combination attack with her brother, which is a bit more of a story thing). Neither have Stone or Aero spells. In fact, NO White Mages other than FF3 in the mainline series have Stone or Aero spells (in FF7, they aren't even from a standard Materia, and are skills enemies use, I think exclusively...)

Tactics Advanced is a slimmed down version of Tactics (doesn't even have Holy), though it has "White Combo". A2 has Refresh (which isn't an MP recovery, it cures things that Esuna doesn't, because Esuna in that game...doesn't). And the OG Final Fantasy 1 White Mage had an expansive ability list...because it didn't have Esuna and had individual heals for various status effects, the Cure line of spells, the Heal (basically Medica) line of spells, the Dia line of spells (OG WHM had Dia, not Aero/Stone, which seems to ONLY be a WHM thing in FF3 specifically), Holy, Protect, Blink, Invis, Silence, Dispel, Exit, Life, Full-life, five Null- spells (including NullAll), and the "Stone" you might see in the list is Stona, the cure for petrification (falls under the status effect heals).

WHM in 14 is only unlike other WHMs in the series in that it has a lot of powerful heals with no cast times or MP costs (and unlike Pray, are both large and have no risk of failure), and has possibly the largest slate of offensive spell lines of any Final Fantasy White Mage, having Glare(Stone), Dia(Aero), Assize, Holy, and Afflatus Misery. While it only has 5 at one time, the only other WHM to match that was FF3, and only if you include the AOE versions of Stone and Aero as separate abilities...in which case they're both tied at 5. Not being a menu based game, FFXIV doesn't have separate status effect cures for each status effect (opting for only Esuna) and doesn't have a "better Raise" (or Reraise). It doesn't have Protect or Shell, but has Divine Benison and Aquaveil/Temperance (the latter 2 of which do the same thing). It further has extra utility and modifier spells like Plenary Indulgence and Presence of Mind (a self-only Haste spell)

It actually stacks up pretty well against any of the WHMs in the single player games...

Healing isn't "a joke", it's just not balls to the wall intense. And I'll note WHM in FFXIV is already at risk of being LOW in number of heals compared to several WHMs in the series. If it had many less, then it WOULD be "unlike any WHM in the series (in a bad way)", actually.

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Originally Posted by Osmond

SGE is great to play, but too easy for its own good. It has more healing than a SCH, has more DPS than a SCH, has more mitigation than a SCH. The job ends up becoming too forgiving so I can see ppl like it more than SCH.

They will be forced to overhaul SCH if they make SGE even more forgiving in 7.0.

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It may be more forgiving, but I don't think that's why people like it more. Its kit isn't at war with itself. I've said it since at least SB, and a lot of other people have said it as well, SCH's kit fights itself.

Some people absolutely love that, but a lot of people abjectly hate it. Energy Drain is fighting your AF heals like Soil, Excog, and Indom (the first two of which are cool abilities people, WANT to use), Faerie abilities are unavailable during Seraph (Fey Blessing, Aetherpact) and Dissipation (all of them), Dissipation gives you AF but doesn't boost your AF/oGCD healing, only your magic (GCD/cast) heals, and even though it gives you AF, the expended AFs for its duration (since Eos is dismissed) don't contribute to Faerie Gauge, your Faerie is sometimes unresponsive and abilities can be ghosted (this is way better than it used to be, but still CAN happen), your level 60, 70, and 80 capstone abilities are at war with each other. SCH spends so much time fighting its own kit, that it is clunky, unintuitive, and feels bad to play. Worse, it's signature heals - Adlo, Succor, and Sacred Soil - are all abilities you rarely, if ever, want to use, and the cast heals are less responsive than SGE's due to their cast times.

SGE, on the other hand, takes SCH's base and fixes...all of that. Its signature move is Kardia, which it uses all the time. Kardia doesn't have any ghosting issues like Eos. Your Addersting and Addersgall are two separate gauges, so you never feel bad about using abilities like Kerachole or Taurochole, its level 60 (Physis II), 70 (Haima), and 80 (Panhaima) abilities aren't at war with each other (though the latter two are best used in series not simultaneously - but they don't lock you out of the other nor out of any part of your kit), no part of the kit at all is at war with any other part, and even its shields are more responsive than SCH's, including its oGCD Haima/Panhaima/Holos ones. It doesn't have the clunk that SCH has for any of these things, either.

While SGE doesn't exactly match the big brain archetype in execution, its design just works while SCH's design has the player fighting with their kit and the kit fighting with itself.

Again, some people love that...many people do not. So it's not about being easy, it's about not being clunky. And as many people have said before, clunk is not challenge, it's bad design.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

WHM in XIII is Medic, not Synergist. Synergist had the En spells, not Medic. Some

WHM in 14 is only unlike other WHMs in the series in that it has a lot of powerful heals with no cast times or MP costs (and unlike Pray, are both large and have no risk of failure), and has possibly the largest slate of offensive spell lines of any Final Fantasy White Mage, having Glare(Stone), Dia(Aero), Assize, Holy, and Afflatus Misery. It further has extra modifier spells like Plenary Indulgence and Presence

It actually stacks up pretty well against any of the WHMs in the single player games...

Healing isn't "a joke", it's just not balls to the wall intense. And I'll note WHM in FFXIV is already at risk of being LOW in number of heals compared to several WHMs in the series. If it had many less, then it WOULD be "unlike any WHM in the series (in a bad way)", actually.

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1. En skills are white magic what class they are associated is moot given the series has integration. Just cause the spin-offs didn't make "good" use, doesn't mean they didn't exist.

2. That is not the reason why the job is unlike any other white mage iteration, it is so because it's live and unlike other live "white mage" interactions. It tries to play most into the healing portion without contributing to the other aspects of the role fully noting that is live and scripted as you yourself brought up the bar skills.. (and I brought up previously, did you read my post?) This is a healer issue and not mainly a white mage issue lack of meaningful skills (cure,regen..etc yes are iconic but useless given the game schema). And technically untrue on the largest offensive white mage damage rooster given most of the games have combined the job with another. Example Yuna has summoning and access to explore any other job
abilities via the grid system. Although it might have the most WHITE mage attack skills, this does not change a thing given the dynamic of the role and where it plays (this is not turn-based that requires healing pre V)

3. It does not as it gets boring real quick single playing, doable sure...boring with 1 button spam.

4. Healing is a joke when tanks are highly self sustained and experienced. I don't heal often if at all...with Warrior in particular I never press a heal button in dungeon pulls or any content outside maybe savage. It would be less of a joke if knowing me healing was needed on large pulls, but alas you don't need to heal.

I quote white mage as white mage is usually just a tack on to another class in games or is seen as a hybrid to something else. I should say healer, as unironically most healers in other games also have a good portion of damage and support control.

Also cut usage of "some people like" arguments as they are a controvience of fallacy.
I also omitted out the stuff my comment already addressed. That was a long response and a lot of fluff. But I did want to answer your main points.

I honestly wonder why the people who complain about "clunky kit" on SCH feel the need to cry for a rework to "bring SCH more in line with SGE" when SGE is literally right there. I honestly find SGE much clunkier than SCH due to Eukrasia alone, I also think SGE is badly designed because there's no interactivity within the kit. SCH locking out parts of the kit means you have to plan ahead and be smart with your cooldown usage, it's one of the only enjoyable aspects of healing kits remaining to me.

Also, the "fact" that SCH needs to spend every drop of aetherflow on ED to be optimal is a myth that needs to stop being spread. Aetherflow stacks should be used on Indom/Excog/Soil as necessary to free up GCD time for both you and your cohealer, wasting all of them on ED is selfish and puts all the burden on your cohealer unless you wish to use your GCD on Succor instead of Broil, no one should do this in a random party. A single crit Broil is also worth way more than Energy Drain.

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Originally Posted by Katish

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1. In FF11? They're classified as "Enhancement". It's not moot when we're talking about White MAGES not White MAGICS. "...made whoever the WHM applied it two..." was your wording, btw, not "whoever the White Magic User applied it to".

2. Uh...what case are you talking about? FF11 is the only other "live" version with a White Mage, and WHM in FF11 doesn't do damage most of the time and only heals/buffs in parties, generally. FFX's Yuna is a Summoner, not a White Mage. Like her class and stuff is Summoner. I also gave you the full list of pure White Mages through the series (well, more or less) and they don't do that. When you're combining with other Jobs, you're not talking about a White Mage anymore. A FFT White Mage with a Black Mage SubJob has their White Mage part and their Black Mage part. You don't argue that Fire is a White Mage spell, because if you had that White Mage subjob Chemist, they wouldn't have it.

3. Boring TO YOU, not to everyone. Many people find it fun and engaging.

4. I heal all the time in 4 mans, and even more in 8 mans.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I honestly wonder why the people who complain about "clunky kit" on SCH feel the need to cry for a rework to "bring SCH more in line with SGE" when SGE is literally right there.

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I honestly don't understand this, either. I never understand any of the "make X Job more like Y Job arguments". I get the arguments for giving Jobs things that are seen as NECESSARY (WHM being the only Healer Job right now without a party mit is noticeable in some content and hampers its viability compared to the other three somewhat since they all have an answer to that problem that WHM does not), but in general, as long as the bases are covered, I don't think it makes sense to argue for one Job to play more like some other Job. If people like said other Job, they should just play it instead. Maybe it doesn't QUITE match the aesthetic they want, but that's kinda just...the way life is sometimes.

SGE has all kinds of interactivity with the kit, though. I never will understand this argument. SCH locking out doesn't mean you have to "plan ahead", it just means it's clunky. You can generally use whichever CD and still do fine. "Oh no, I used Dissipation and now there's big damage where I should use Seraph and Consolation instead! Whatever will I do! Oh, wait...Recitation + Adlo + Deployment Tactics, lol gg" (or that shiny Indom or Sacred Soil you just got from those AF stacks). Not much planning ahead there, just dealing with the clunk. And if you're doing super high end optimization, you have a healing plan anyway, for all the Healers, so that's not really relevant.

Your counter on ED use of AF is also flawed. You're VERY rarely going to need to use a GCD heal. Your oGCD tools (non-AF) are more than powerful enough for most issues so that you aren't having to use a GCD. Your GCD uses are generally going to be a Deployed Critlo for something specific, in which case Indom isn't going to save you from that. I agree that Energy Drain is a nearly pointless amount of damage, but read what people say in the surveys; they genuinely feel bad about using AF for other things because they know it's suboptimal except in very specific situations. Oh, and in 2 out of 3 cases (cohealer is WHM or SGE), they're passively throwing around so much AOE healing between Physis/Karachole (which also doesn't stack with Soil) or Afflatus Rapture/Assize that your missing Indom is RARELY going to be necessary, and in the case of SGE, your missing Soil wouldn't even count.

Again, I don't think it should be changed - it's how SCH and SGE are unique from each other, and from the other Healers, and diversity of Jobs is a good thing, imo - but to say SCH is the better DESIGNED is just...no. I can't agree to that at all. SGE is far better designed, but it's not for everyone. And that's okay. And SCH isn't for everyone. And that's okay. And WHM and AST aren't for everyone, and that's okay, too.

Keep the Jobs diverse, give people more options. Best way to design, imo.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

[...]I honestly find SGE much clunkier than SCH due to Eukrasia alone, I also think SGE is badly designed because there's no interactivity within the kit. SCH locking out parts of the kit means you have to plan ahead and be smart with your cooldown usage, it's one of the only enjoyable aspects of healing kits remaining to me.[...]

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Eukrasia not having a toggle off button outside using Macro & clickin the buff imho is an oversight.

Also, lmao how dare that we are required to plan ahead, eh? :rolleyes:

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Also, the "fact" that SCH needs to spend every drop of aetherflow on ED to be optimal is a myth that needs to stop being spread. Aetherflow stacks should be used on Indom/Excog/Soil as necessary to free up GCD time for both you and your cohealer, wasting all of them on ED is selfish and puts all the burden on your cohealer unless you wish to use your GCD on Succor instead of Broil, no one should do this in a random party. A single crit Broil is also worth way more than Energy Drain.

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Honestly after plenty of encounters with said myth, I get a feeling whoever spouting that probably just read things and haven’t (or worse, nihil!) actually dive into those content long enough themselves, a.k.a. parroting.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

1. In FF11? They're classified as "Enhancement". It's not moot when we're talking about White MAGES not White MAGICS. "...made whoever the WHM applied it two..." was your wording, btw, not "whoever the White Magic User applied it to".

2. Uh...what case are you talking about? FF11 is the only other "live" version with a White Mage, and WHM in FF11 doesn't do damage most of the time and only heals/buffs in parties, generally. FFX's Yuna is a Summoner, not a White Mage. Like her class and stuff is Summoner. I also gave you the full list of pure White Mages through the series (well, more or less) and they don't do that. When you're combining with other Jobs, you're not talking about a White Mage anymore. A FFT White Mage with a Black Mage SubJob has their White Mage part and their Black Mage part. You don't argue that Fire is a White Mage spell, because if you had that White Mage subjob Chemist, they wouldn't have it.

3. Boring TO YOU, not to everyone. Many people find it fun and engaging.

4. I heal all the time in 4 mans, and even more in 8 mans.

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1. Technically, technically it's a white magic spell that uses enhancement magic skill, like protect and shell... but yeah, spell categories get weird if you try and compare them between FF11 and FF14 since the games are so different. Also as a side note, PLD has enlight, not WHM, and it uses Divine magic skill to make it even more complicated.
2. The thing with WHM in FF11 is that it doesn't constantly do damage because the game is completely different. They need to keep a haste rotation going, need to keep their buffs up, need to heal and esuna as necessary, and have to manage their MP while doing it so they will end up just going into resting stance sometimes. That being said, the job is easy enough to be controlled by a multi-boxer using a script in non-super serious content so...
4. It sounds like your warrior tanks in dungeons are failing you then, I feel personally feel offended if I see my healer using a GCD heal outside of recovering from an aoe or whm getting lilies :(