Please no Perpetual Cost for Summoners!

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Originally Posted by Biggs

Didnt they already say that the summoning mechanic would work totally different in this game? As in, a player company beats ifrit, and gets the ability to summon him one time before that ability goes back up for grabs to a different company. SO I don't think you will have to worry about perpetual anything bud. PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!

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Yes but everyone is willing to completely ignore that because they want summoner so bad they're blinded.

If and when summoner is released it will be very different from XI, even if you're not willing to accept it.

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Originally Posted by Biggs

Didnt they already say that the summoning mechanic would work totally different in this game? As in, a player company beats ifrit, and gets the ability to summon him one time before that ability goes back up for grabs to a different company. SO I don't think you will have to worry about perpetual anything bud. PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!

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That's summoning primals, done by Free Companies, not Summoners.

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Originally Posted by Colino

Yes but everyone is willing to completely ignore that because they want summoner so bad they're blinded.

If and when summoner is released it will be very different from XI, even if you're not willing to accept it.

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you do know why ppl want summoner to the game right? 1 people want more job, and most want more mage jobs cause there only 2 and alot of ppl are begging for pet jobs besides musketeer and a thf job. summoner is a mage pet job it kills 2 birds with one stone. and look at Pld prime example of SE hardcore screwing up a job. And Summoner is going to need something that you know ppl wont be like oh just grab a blm screw smn.

Goats are like mushrooms.
If you shoot a duck, I'm afraid of toasters.

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Originally Posted by Gospel

Goats are like mushrooms.
If you shoot a duck, I'm afraid of toasters.

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every thing makes sense! forever!

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Originally Posted by Colino

Yes but everyone is willing to completely ignore that because they want summoner so bad they're blinded.

If and when summoner is released it will be very different from XI, even if you're not willing to accept it.

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Pretty much this.

THis game is wayy different than XI. In Xi everything was slower, more meticulously thought out. This game is more fast paced. I mean how will a SMN combo? or do other things that are current battle mechanics. Its possible you only get one summon every hour or so, what would the skill bar look like? Thing is this isn't for US to decide. People get paid to figure this stuff out, its not any of us. Just say, we want summoner. They'll figure the rest out.

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Originally Posted by Colino

Yes but everyone is willing to completely ignore that because they want summoner so bad they're blinded.

If and when summoner is released it will be very different from XI, even if you're not willing to accept it.

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Hmm... except Yoshida already mentioned SMN as a possibility for 2.0.... he simply pointed out that we wouldn't be able to summon the primals but lesser creatures like Carbuncle are all possible candidates.
And no, Summoner does not need perpetuation costs to be balanced. It wasn't balanced in XI, Summoner only had the unique ability to deal decent damage and not get hate for it unlike BLM. That trait quickly became irrelevant as the game went on and SMN was stuck in the past.
Summoner abilities had a pretty big MP cost as well in XI, there was no need to make them even worse with perpetuation... especially when Automatons or BST pets could deal more melee damage in comparison.
I'm sure it'll be different in this game, there's no doubt about that.

So... we're now at page 5 of arguing about different mechanics from different games and complaining about a thing that we can, at best, only speculate about.

http://img.ponibooru.org/_images/09b...pinkie_pie.gif

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

So... we're now at page 5 of arguing about different mechanics from different games and complaining about a thing that we can, at best, only speculate about.

http://img.ponibooru.org/_images/09b...pinkie_pie.gif

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Paladin you argument is invalid.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

Paladin you argument is invalid.

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Ok.

What about paladin?

when jobs were coming out ppl were say that "oh the jobs arent out you cant say anything about them." people said that jobs were gonna have less survivability and thought that they would be terrible compared to classes and Paladin is the prime example of that.

Paladin is the exception, all the other jobs are fine.

But that doesn't matter. Paladin is not summoner. The argument you and other people are making is that SMN will behave like it did in FFXI, or like in some other FF games, and that they want X mechanic from Y FF game. All of which were different from the other FF games.

You're not making a very good case here. You don't know what mechanics SMN will have aside from summons and being a caster, because it has only been mentioned in passing. You don't even know if they'll MAKE a summoner class, because they said "we're looking into it."

Whoops, let me take that back.

Summoner was confirmed for 2.0 in this interview.

http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs...17_484272.html

But no mention of summoner mechanics.

Ya you are right we dont know. But this game is faster paced than 11. Black mages run outta mp super fast if they dont manage their mp. or if the fight is super dragged out. And we dont know if Smn will be part Blm or part Whm or strictly be summons only. (yes some FF titles Summoners can use Blm only and no whm.)

Ok imagine Ifrit a fight with a summoner. If there is a perpetual cost. Eventually your out of mp cause your not regaining mp like a Blm can in passive mode especially if summons also has white or black magic at their disposal theys either be casting themselvesa bit even making the mp fall faster. Eventually your out of mp and you pet dismisses. Or if they add it what able pet heals are you gonna let you pet die? Cause it will be hit by ifrits fire aura unless its ablilty like second wind that just has a recast. you now have to wait for not only enough mp to resummon that avatar but for it to stay out long enough to be effective. Now you losing on DD for ifrit for the sake of efficiency which is notorious in this game why would you just take a Blm at that point?

Asking for no perpetual cost is not making it over powered. Cause you have to take account that this game right now IS very aoe based and you will have to resummon more than a few times. and if the cost is high you will be outta mp quick. and defintly not overpowered enough to warrent ppl saying. "oh then dd should be able to ws without tp"

Okay.

Dude.

One, you know nothing, and you're taking shots in the dark. You don't know if monster/boss AOEs will hit pets full damage, reduced damage, or no damage. You don't know what MP regen skills you will have as a summoner, so IF there was a perpetuating cost, you have no idea how long your avatar will be out. You yourself are throwing out phrases like "you don't know", "imagine if", and "if they add."

Two, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Both perpetual cost and no perpetual cost can be balanced in such a manner that summoner does its job, whatever it is, well enough throughout a fight. Your only examples of perpetual cost is from a game where the class was balanced extremely poorly for the majority of the game's life, and the game as a whole behaved completely differently from the one that you're playing now.

I honestly have no idea what the point of this topic is or how you can think you can argue about anything in it.

ok dude. i do know that pet would take full dmg cause of the Dlvl on the end game mobs which is why you can do no armor runs with ifrit. but im not sure if you know that seeing as your highest job is 21. and as i said earlier i am thinking the worst i completely hope i am proven wrong. and once again the class designs are kinda poor once again look at Warrior and Pld. It can be exactly the same thing between Blm and Smn. The arguement is that if there isn a perpetual cost or at least if the pet doesnt auto dismiss when the summoner is out of mp they can/only atuo attack so basically summoner wont be sitting there with its thumb up its ass during the fight.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

So... we're now at page 5 of arguing about different mechanics from different games and complaining about a thing that we can, at best, only speculate about.

http://img.ponibooru.org/_images/09b...pinkie_pie.gif

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<looks around> yep, we're still in the FFXIV Official Forums, not sure where you thought you were there for a sec :p You musta been day dreaming again :p

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

So... we're now at page 5 of arguing about different mechanics from different games and complaining about a thing that we can, at best, only speculate about.

http://img.ponibooru.org/_images/09b...pinkie_pie.gif

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This. lol. Just let Yoshi and his team do their job. I want to play a game made by Yoshi...not by...someone else...

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Originally Posted by Alkar

Hmm... except Yoshida already mentioned SMN as a possibility for 2.0.... he simply pointed out that we wouldn't be able to summon the primals but lesser creatures like Carbuncle are all possible candidates.

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I never said that SMN would never be in the game.

You made my point clearly that whenever it will be implemented it will be completely different from XI or other FF games for that matter, so I really see no point in discussing it until we have at least marginal details. Everything else is gibberish.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

It should cost MP from the summoner only to summon the avatar, and any spells it uses, not abilities. Abilities should require tp use. With spirit dart attack on summon to build tp safely.

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This would work quite well. What I don't want to see is the dumb hateless damage thing. Something to definitely consider is traits or a mechanic for pets so that they don't get one-shot by AoE's (WoW had a mechanic like this and it worked quite well for Hunters...not to mention it killed off the rule raids had made that no hunter pets were allowed). Likewise, the amount of aggro should be reduced by a percentage but having Avatar and Summoner share hate.

1. My gripe with 11's SMN was that avatars were expendable, summoned for an attack, dismissed, or used as bait and killed with no consequences. I would like 14's SMN to emphasise the need to keep your avatar alive. If the avatar dies, the SMN should die too lol
   
   
   
2. It would be interesting to see how we will access avatars, having them as abilities on the action bar will surely take up a whole row eventually, maybe they will be accessed via equipped weapon and a universal summon ability on the bar
   
   
   
3. Another issue is Combo: Avatar combo / Avatar and SMN combo.
   
   
   
4. I would like a bit of depth to avatars too to equip passive or active skills. In FF8 avatars learnt passive traits as they progressed, could we see a bit of customization with a system like this (say spec'ing out an avatar for melee or magic etc spec'ing it out in a way like setting blu spells or automaton parts for pup in 11). In FF10 you actively chose what new skills your aeon could learn as you wished.
   
   
   
5. Might we see a consumable aspect added in. In FF9 avatar abilities were affected by number of certain items in your inventory such as gemstones.
   
   
   
6. I'm curious as to whether SMN will be pure SMN or whether it will involve whm and blm spells on top. IMO It would be far too hectic to control an avatar, combo with it, etc, and add reliably to the party with whm or blm spells on top.

its a nice idea but still say your fighting CC and he does his attack that usually one shots plds is the Avatar gonna be fast enough to get away. you would almost be afraid to send the avatar out if it died you died. cause what if you send it to attack just as it started charging an aoe.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

its a nice idea but still say your fighting CC and he does his attack that usually one shots plds is the Avatar gonna be fast enough to get away. you would almost be afraid to send the avatar out if it died you died. cause what if you send it to attack just as it started charging an aoe.

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You don't know how pets are going to be balanced because we have none. You don't know if they'll be hit by monster AOEs when they're not at the top of the threat list, or if they'll take reduced damage, or if they'll take full damage. You don't know how much HP they'll have, or if you as a summoner can't give them buffs like Stoneskin or Protect or a lifelink with you, or anything. You don't...

... you know what?

http://i935.photobucket.com/albums/a...yboardMash.gif

so your say if im not at the top of the hate like i can run up to ifrit as my mnk and not take damage when he eneter his second phase and his fire explosive aura? Once again do you not know what Ifrit does if not watch a video on the ifrit fight. guy if they dont take dmg from Aoe then that will make them all ready better than all the other DDs out there that take dmg from ifrit, CC, Chimera, etc. And pet NORMALLY Have just a bit more Hp than casters but alittle less than DD or the same but less than Tanks.

And before you say anything that i still dont know what im talking about. In every single video game that you could possible be a pet job in i played it. Ones where you couldnt control your pets where they only attack what you attack. Ones where certain elemental pets had different rolls. Earth was a tank, water was a healer dd, fire was casting dd, air was an evasion aoe dd. Some games that their pets were actually better tanks themselves cause the could self heal faster than a cleric healing. Inn 11 was the 1st one that changes it up only slightly they still acted like all the other pets in every other game but instead of pets just auto doing the attack they had buffs and attack that you had to pick. and the biggest difference was the perpetual cost. When summoner first came out in the RoZ its was basically only a whm. so many parties i joined said heal only no pets youll run out of mp to quick. i was furious. Or they let you summon just to buff with stoneskin or hastega.

I have played enough pet jobs in my life and played this game long enough to guesstimate how Smn might work. There isnt much SE can really do to make Smn unique from any other pet job ever. Unless if they make it that you become the summon or somthing.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

so your say if im not at the top of the hate like i can run up to ifrit as my mnk and not take damage when he eneter his second phase and his fire explosive aura? Once again do you not know what Ifrit does if not watch a video on the ifrit fight. guy if they dont take dmg from Aoe then that will make them all ready better than all the other DDs out there that take dmg from ifrit, CC, Chimera, etc. And pet NORMALLY Have just a bit more Hp than casters but alittle less than DD or the same but less than Tanks.

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It doesn't make them any better than THM/BLM or ARC/BRD. The summoner himself will still need to dodge whatever ranged abilities need to be dodged, but also won't have to worry about making the pet dodge things.

But again, you don't know how this is going to work. We have no pets right now to base anything off of.

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Originally Posted by KoujiGeki

And before you say anything that i still dont know what im talking about. In every single video game that you could possible be a pet job in i played it. Ones where you couldnt control your pets where they only attack what you attack. Ones where certain elemental pets had different rolls. Earth was a tank, water was a healer dd, fire was casting dd, air was an evasion aoe dd.

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Can you name some of these games? Because you could control your pets in FFXI, WOW, RIFT, Aion.

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Some games that their pets were actually better tanks themselves cause the could self heal faster than a cleric healing. Inn 11 was the 1st one that changes it up only slightly they still acted like all the other pets in every other game but instead of pets just auto doing the attack they had buffs and attack that you had to pick. and the biggest difference was the perpetual cost. When summoner first came out in the RoZ its was basically only a whm. so many parties i joined said heal only no pets youll run out of mp to quick. i was furious. Or they let you summon just to buff with stoneskin or hastega.

I have played enough pet jobs in my life and played this game long enough to guesstimate how Smn might work. There isnt much SE can really do to make Smn unique from any other pet job ever. Unless if they make it that you become the summon or somthing.

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Here you go again with "guesstimate" and "might". You don't know s**t. Every MMO has a different pet style. You have no arguments here. Go home.

I'll be incredibly sad if SMNS are just WHM substitutes. I'd love to see a new direction for them.

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Originally Posted by Platinumstorm

I'll be incredibly sad if SMNS are just WHM substitutes. I'd love to see a new direction for them.

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Ironically, they had zero magic in FFXI outside of avatars and spirits natively, if they branch off of the CNJ path guess what they will be if the community wants another healing class? Yep they'll be whm substitutes.

WHMs that know how to play (yes this means healing people other than the tank as well) will do just fine without the need of a 'substitute' especially since they're in large quantity atm.

I'd rather they do something unique with Summoners than just being lazy and copying XI more.

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Originally Posted by Isaveron

I'd rather they do something unique with Summoners than just being lazy and copying XI more.

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Prepare your flame shield, saying anything should be different from XI is suicide around here.

I'll just chime this in but what if a SMN could only command an avatar when they have their weapon drawn. When their weapon is drawn then then perp cost would be active however when they sheathe their weapon the avatar would enter a hibernation state in which it just follows you. At least then a SMN would not have to call back their summon if they are running low on MP, they could just sheath their weapon and recover while keeping it out and when they receive enough MP back then can draw their weapon and perform actions again.

oh wow i like that idea. atleast your giving ideas. maybe this thread can stay on track without being hinder by a lvl 21. But that would help the perpetual cost problem out alot.

But imagine if the surprised use that Smn becomes a melee job like Yuna was in Final Fantasy Dissidia that be kinda cool i think. Just make it combos that cost mp instead of TP. But the TP moves could summon them to do their 2hrs or specuials or whatnot.