6.1 Samurai: the Kaiten removal was the right choice but it's not enough

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

Personally since I opened the thread i started to change my mind just by confronting my opinion with the rest of the job playerbase: I found out that a lot of people loved the flavour aspect of the skill, and I agree with the fact that Tsubbame Gaeshi is even more useless than I thought Kaiten was.

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OH HELLO FRIEND. I WILL DEFEND YOU NOW.

Everyone leave her alone. She has come around.

I'm glad that you've finally seen the majority of how we feel about Kaiten and why we like it so much. It's a problematic thing when they take away an iconic ability like kleptomaniac grabbing stuff from a department store just so they can 'build upon the job easier later'. Instead, they should try their best to build upon what they havr and what we like so much, and when that fail they need to come clean and say it before actually making the change.

In the end of the day, FF is just one of myriad games that serve a purpose: to have fun NOW. People don't need yo wait 4 months or even 2 years to have fun now. If someone doesn't like it a little bit too much, they'll just leave for another prospectful game. It doesn't even have to be MMO, since FF is looking less and less of an MMO with this oversimplification and less reliant of social aspect when you're actually doing the battle content.

Removing Kaiten is to remove the fun NOW. And that's one straw that broke my camel's back. This is my last sub and honestly I feel sorry for my fellow SAMs that's currently lost playing dumbed down job

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Calling Kaiten "useless" while Tsubame-Gaeshi is still there being even MORE flavorless and parasitic.

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Careful. Shoha II is starting to sweat.

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

I don't get why you all seem to feel the need to mock me. I'm not a paladin of over-simplification nor I have ever mentioned ability or button bloat. Let's discuss: a lot of people in here stated the reasons why they think Kaiten was useful and impactful.

Personally since I opened the thread i started to change my mind just by confronting my opinion with the rest of the job playerbase: I found out that a lot of people loved the flavour aspect of the skill, and I agree with the fact that Tsubbame Gaeshi is even more useless than I thought Kaiten was.

I don't understand what's the matter behind that form of bullying that rules in the official forums.

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Victim card while bowing out of your previous stance. Have a spine you.

If kaiten was removed and replaced, that would be one thing. As it is, it was a poor decision. In this iteration it should have been use to make iajutsu and ogi crit until it is removed and replaced later. This skill was not removed because of button bloat, it was removed cause the devs did not know how to proceed with the class with this skill in its current state. I don't know it the crit would have put it in a better state for there vision. They really need to just come out and say what the hell they want to do with classes as well as the mention crit synergy was a problem they wish to address as well.

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Originally Posted by RushBee

I agree. IMO SAM needs to be reworked into something like WHM where you have a DOT and a single button to do damage. Pressing too many buttons is just the absolute worst and makes for gameplay that is too hard for me.

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Choose your words carefully. There are people that do believe this. You don't want to be reworked like the other poor jobs that were.

Yoshi P will come in and give you a drop kick and yell "This is new Samurai.... Please look forward to it" and you will fall into the pit of despair like so many other poor jobs have.

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Originally Posted by BrokentoothMarch

Careful. Shoha II is starting to sweat.

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They wont remove Shoha 2, they spend months working on that ability, it's one of the reasons endwalker was delayed

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Originally Posted by BrokentoothMarch

Careful. Shoha II is starting to sweat.

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Shoha II is middling. It is unnecessary and bloaty to a degree, but it does still have a distinct function with distinct animations.

Tsubame-Gaeshi is a lazy POS. It has no flavor, it is directly contradictory to SAM's job identity, and it has no unique animation. There is absolutely no reason why Tsubame-Gaeshi couldn't be completely replaced with an actual follow-up ability with its own animation like say Shoha II.

I will die on this hill.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Victim card while bowing out of your previous stance. Have a spine you.

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I just want to discuss with other Samurai Players about a mechanic that got removed from a damn MMO video game. You have zero respect. You have fun bullying people in a video-game forum? If that's having a spine I'm glad I don't have one.

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

I just want to discuss with other Samurai Players about a mechanic that got removed from a damn MMO video game. You have zero respect. You have fun bullying people in a video-game forum? If that's having a spine I'm glad I don't have one.

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You came here to gloat about destroying SAM and pretend that you play this class. Even for casuals these changes are insult. You go dungeon and see always same numbers because of auto crit, not to mention weird cone -> aoe change for no reason. You don't have less buttons to press, even in dungeon you can notice how much game forces you to use shinten/kyuten because it is only kenki spender ability.

After a while even casual player can notice that at the very least removing kaiten is wrong move.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

You came here to gloat about destroying SAM and pretend that you play this class. Even for casuals these changes are insult. You go dungeon and see always same numbers because of auto crit, not to mention weird cone -> aoe change for no reason. You don't have less buttons to press, even in dungeon you can notice how much game forces you to use shinten/kyuten because it is only kenki spender ability.

After a while even casual player can notice that at the very least removing kaiten is wrong move.

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So it's forbidden to me to have an opinion? I should hide in a closet because if I say what I think about the class I'll be insulted by people who doesn't have the same opinion? Attack my ideas, don't attack me. You act like it's my fault being insulted every two posts because I don't mind the skill from the MMO FFXIV Kaiten being removed.

Lets break down how you are wrong with this statement:

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Kaiten was basically useless from a game design and gameplay perspective. If you use something every single time before a specific skill, it's better to just remove it. In my opinion it was a good "flavour" skill but clearly unnecessary when taking into account the whole rotation.

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it would be right if it was like that which is not the case, the kenki gauge is a ressource to be managed and you use it before every iaijutsu IF you managed that resource right, the 2 cost of kaiten and shinten make it have a decision making aspect to the gauge.

now, places where this logic do apply are ikishoten into ogi namikiri, they are just a sequence of buttons and could be crammed into a single one, Iaijutsu and tsubame, they did it to ogi namikiri and there is no reason to not have been done to Iaijutsu, shifu > Kasha and Jinpu > Gekko, again, you can't do gekko nor kasha without its predecessor GCD without losing major potency and benefits.

This change was absurd because they were trying to address a problem that was not there to begin with in the most harmful way possible, they removed the entire decision making aspect of the class while not addressing the issue at all, they changed the only thing that would make no difference towards the problems they were aiming at.

You yourself came to this conclusion but somehow sided with kenki being an issue

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But why did I say that the change is not enough? Because in my opinion the removal of Kaiten raised the curtain on the real problem with Samurai, which is Kenki. Kenki now feels like a useless resource because it basically had just a couple functions and lost it's primary one.

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being against class homogenization and in favor of removing a major class defining feature feels odd, Kaiten was at the very least your bunny in ninja terms, if you did not manage the resource right you would not have it and that was a big influence on your damage, they can remove it and the class damage will be adjusted to be the same, but it in return requires less skill and now feels less rewarding when you do your Iaijutsu.

If we boil down to sequences being simplified we can end up with an autobattling system and you just avoid boss mechanics and try to stay in melee range, game design is balancing risk and reward, which both were disregarded with this change.

Kaiten sucked, no great loss, but they should've had something with actual gameplay meat to replace it with before they cut it. So basically, Caprica is right.

Edit: There's no decision making to kaiten and the gauge management is laughable. It was literally don't Shinten unless >30 kenki. That's it. And that's still the case! Nothing changed! You still want to wait until >30 in case you need 10 kenki for a movement skill.

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

So it's forbidden to me to have an opinion? I should hide in a closet because if I say what I think about the class I'll be insulted by people who doesn't have the same opinion? Attack my ideas, don't attack me. You act like it's my fault being insulted every two posts because I don't mind the skill from the MMO FFXIV Kaiten being removed.

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Sometimes you have to do research and acknowledge that perhaps you are wrong and move on. Instead you created this thread. People pointed out flaws in sam changes before patch was live, maybe people in JP forum can help you finding out where are you wrong?

Let's take it a step further, and remove all the combos and GCDs and cooldowns and just make all the fights a cinematic.

Shinten was not spammed until Kaiten was removed. Kenki only fails because Kaiten is gone. Implying these skills were equally complex is not an opinion, it's wrong.

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

So it's forbidden to me to have an opinion? I should hide in a closet because if I say what I think about the class I'll be insulted by people who doesn't have the same opinion? Attack my ideas, don't attack me. You act like it's my fault being insulted every two posts because I don't mind the skill from the MMO FFXIV Kaiten being removed.

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You wanted to hear other SAMs opinion on your perspective and the overwhelming majority said it's awful.

You said that, from a gameplay and game design stand point, the skill was worthless because you pressed 1 button before every Iaijutsu and had no gameplay element to it other than job flavor while completely ignoring the fact that it made Kenki Management a thing to begin with. This is the exact same problem that SCH had when SE tried to remove Energy Drain, the class breaks from it. Your initial post came off as presumptuous and ignorant as a result, which is why everyone here was immediately hostile to it.

Having an opinion is fine but when you come to a funeral and say "I'm glad they're dead", you're not exactly going to make many friends, regardless of the reason.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

You wanted to hear other SAMs opinion on your perspective and the overwhelming majority said it's awful.

You said that, from a gameplay and game design stand point, the skill was worthless because you pressed 1 button before every Iaijutsu and had no gameplay element to it other than job flavor while completely ignoring the fact that it made Kenki Management a thing to begin with. This is the exact same problem that SCH had when SE tried to remove Energy Drain, the class breaks from it. Your initial post came off as presumptuous and ignorant as a result, which is why everyone here was immediately hostile to it.

Having an opinion is fine but when you come to a funeral and say "I'm glad they're dead", you're not exactly going to make many friends, regardless of the reason.

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Holy false equivalency.

Kaiten existed as a reward for proper meter use. If you dumped it all on shintens, then you can't kaiten. It's simple, and yeah you'd get the hang of it really easily, but it felt rewarding.
Over-simplifying jobs for the sake of simplifying is ignoring the fact this is a game, and things are fun.

Take my main, dancer, for example. Why have steps? Why not just have technical step be an 8 second cast that I can move around during? It's pointless, since realistically you just don't mess up steps after a certain skill level.
But I fucking love steps, because they're fun and reward me for planning 8 seconds ahead and remembering I can't use shield samba during that time. It's niche but it's really fun!

This same logic is taken to a logical extreme with just removal of jobs, and having a dps job, a healer job, and a tank job
Healer has two button. "HEAL". HEAL is an instant cast ability that cures for 1000 potency. and "DAMAGE" DAMAGE is an instant case ability that damages enemy for 300 potency.
Really, it's the same, right? Use DAMAGE until you need to HEAL. We just removed the in between fluff and kept the core function.

Tank has three buttons. "KILL" "TANKS STANCE" and "NOT DIE". KILL does 500 potency to target, and it's aoe for dungeons. TANKS STANCE is an instant cast ability with no cost that will immediately put you at the top of aggro. NOT DIE will reduce oncoming damage by 85% for 20 seconds with no cooldown.
We removed all the whole ordeals with rotating cooldowns, and balancing different invulns was not worth it so we just went ahead and consolidated it all into one cooldown.

DPS have one button. "HURT". HURT is a ranged instant cast ability that does 1000 potency. Rotations, combos, and weaves only added as filler to the core experience of hitting the boss and dodging attacks. I mean, realistically, it's what you were doing before but with more button presses, right?

Obviously, this is pedantic as hell, but that's the logical conclusion if the design choices are simplifying for the sake of simplicity. You design around fun, and function is a building block to fun instead of just the only thing to worry about.
Kaiten being removed is the developers looking at only the function of the job, and not if removing it will make it more fun or not. It's short sighted and nearly everyone else hates it because it's less fun.

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Originally Posted by Flatopia

This same logic is taken to a logical extreme with just removal of jobs, and having a dps job, a healer job, and a tank job
Healer has two button. "HEAL". HEAL is an instant cast ability that cures for 1000 potency. and "DAMAGE" DAMAGE is an instant case ability that damages enemy for 300 potency.
Really, it's the same, right? Use DAMAGE until you need to HEAL. We just removed the in between fluff and kept the core function.

Tank has three buttons. "KILL" "TANKS STANCE" and "NOT DIE". KILL does 500 potency to target, and it's aoe for dungeons. TANKS STANCE is an instant cast ability with no cost that will immediately put you at the top of aggro. NOT DIE will reduce oncoming damage by 85% for 20 seconds with no cooldown.
We removed all the whole ordeals with rotating cooldowns, and balancing different invulns was not worth it so we just went ahead and consolidated it all into one cooldown.

DPS have one button. "HURT". HURT is a ranged instant cast ability that does 1000 potency. Rotations, combos, and weaves only added as filler to the core experience of hitting the boss and dodging attacks. I mean, realistically, it's what you were doing before but with more button presses, right?

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Tanks have too many buttons. TANKS STANCE should be a trait of KILL and KILL should be renamed TANK.

Healer has too many buttons. Healers should heal. DAMAGE is going to confuse newer players. Remove it.

Tanks still have too many buttons. Make NOT DIE a trait of TANK.

Healers are still useless. Delete them altogether.

Players still suck at tanking and DPS are impatient. Give DPS bigger butts and delete the Tanks.

No one is playing the game any more except Yoshi P and RPR mains. Since no one else is playing anymore, just reskin all the DPS as BLM.

Reaper mains continue to play the game because virtually nothing has changed for them.

The next ten years. FFXIV: ARPR

I love how the original post hasn’t had a single star/upvote yet. Not even a spicy take just a dead wrong approach

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

So it's forbidden to me to have an opinion? / Attack my ideas, don't attack me.

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I have not met anyone / nor read anywhere / not in any chat type / any raid parties / any Ex-Farm parties / any discord / any voicecall / any youtuber / any streamer / any SAM main / any SAM enthusiast / any non SAM player that ever complained about Kaiten Pre-6.1 to validate Post 6.1 Kaiten removal.

Face value, your standpoint = " I want to be rewarded? for being more lazy ". SAM, rotation execution with Kaiten is what makes SAM satisfying for many. Yet you pitch agreeing its removal and follow replacing it with -> Nothing, Zero reasonable suggestions.

Here's a metaphor - People enjoying Steak and Fries plate, frustrated that they now get less... And you come over to tell everyone who enjoys it that " the Removal of 10% of the Steak, Fries and Sauce was the correct choice "... and expect everyone who were frustrated with this decision to not look at you weird...

I'll repeat it one more time...

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

I am genuinely questioning if we even play the same game or class, no offense

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Here's a metaphor - People enjoying Steak and Fries plate, frustrated that they now get less... And you come over to tell everyone who enjoys it that " the Removal of 10% of the Steak, Fries and Sauce was the correct choice "

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Cooking steak is an obligatory action before every Ieatsteak cast - might as well get rid of that action and just eat it raw. Some say that cooking it first adds flavor, but that's a silly reason to do something even if it's true.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

I love how the original post hasn’t had a single star/upvote yet. Not even a spicy take just a dead wrong approach

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Because no real samurai main agrees with this take. Just goes to show you.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

Cooking steak is an obligatory action before every Ieatsteak cast - might as well get rid of that action and just eat it raw. Some say that cooking it first adds flavor, but that's a silly reason to do something even if it's true.

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Thread just got Zantetsuken'd. Go home everyone.

I'm a samurai main and with all do respect , removal of kaitan crossed the line for me. I saw you got a lot of back clash for agreeing about the removal. You see SAM and BLM are selfish dps classes. Therefore it's only natural that they are the hardest classes to master. If you are a casual , you don't even have to complain about anything coz you can just ignore buttons you don't like and still do really good in dungeons. The closest example I can give is like an exam, you need to study really hard to get into really great universities like Harvard(ie.highest dps). What you are suggesting is "Let's make it very easy to get into Harvard" then what's the point of studying hard when everyone can be harvard student. It will kill job diversity more or less coz people like playing easy op classes and Sam will become one if we keep going in this direction. Also every samurai main who persists and tried to master this class come to appreciate the flavor of kaitan , i mean literally every samurai main I know.(I mean by samurai main, highly skilled Sam Mains). I'm not sure why you like the removal of kaitan but the only people I know who agree with this are you and other people who thinks samurai is hard.

If I have to quote cjbeagle from the post above "Cooking steak is an obligatory action before every Ieatsteak cast - might as well get rid of that action and just eat it raw. Some say that cooking it first adds flavor, but that's a silly reason to do something even if it's true." . This is a perfect representation of what we all samurai mains feel right now. Eating the steak raw SUCKS!

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Shoha II is middling. It is unnecessary and bloaty to a degree, but it does still have a distinct function with distinct animations.

Tsubame-Gaeshi is a lazy POS. It has no flavor, it is directly contradictory to SAM's job identity, and it has no unique animation. There is absolutely no reason why Tsubame-Gaeshi couldn't be completely replaced with an actual follow-up ability with its own animation like say Shoha II.

I will die on this hill.

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With you on this, replace tsubame geashi with new pvp lb, that would give me a hell lot of dopamine

Terrible take and i'll consider myself baited by this post if that was your main goal. Good job for being the 0.00000001% of SAM players who somehow someway agree with this change and even have the audacity to say that "it's not enough". No one asked for this change, no one wants a rework unless its REALLY good.

You know, you're right.

Remove it all. Remove SAM, DRG, NIN and MNK.

Just RPR. Remove all tanks except WAR. Remove all healers except SGE. All ranged except MCH. Make MCH only one button, called "Emotional Damage."

Fuck it, you know, just remove it all. No combat.

\s

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Originally Posted by DarthManwe

You know, you're right.

Remove it all. Remove SAM, DRG, NIN and MNK.

Just RPR. Remove all tanks except WAR. Remove all healers except SGE. All ranged except MCH. Make MCH only one button, called "Emotional Damage."

Fuck it, you know, just remove it all. No combat.

\s

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https://c.tenor.com/iIn5zfch2hIAAAAd...nal-damage.gif

The amount of toxicity, sarcasm, and gatekeeping in this thread is extreme.

People can have different opinions and change their minds with new information regardless of what stance you're on.

SAM is not as fun for me to play without Kaiten. The Kenki gage is now just basically a Shinten gage. The skill required to get your optimized burst out under raid buffs is reduced. The class is now easier to play, and therefore the reduced damage is justified.

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

The amount of toxicity, sarcasm, and gatekeeping in this thread is extreme. /People can have different opinions...

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That is very true, so I'll give a METAPHOR...

We love Pizza! and the Cheese is great! gives it amazing " Flavor " but our Cheese is replaced with CowSh*t. Were angry yet someone is yelling how " CowSh*t was the right choice, but it's not enough " as in don't stop there.

We know Pizza. Cheese on Pizza is universally accepted by Pizza lovers, impossible to argue. Yet the claim that we all should eat CowSh*T Pizza over Cheese? and encouraging to not stop there? Seems like false feedback. Who would love CowSh*T pizza? But even crazier? having people defend that opinion... I know right? And you can! But Pizza lovers will question if we both love Pizza cause Pizza and Cheese we want that back vs encouraging... the dismissive hottake of CowSh*T Pizza because CowSh*T on Pizza is...ya know, to put it blunt... quite literally Sh*T.

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Originally Posted by Ironbars4564

SAM is not as fun for me to play without Kaiten. The Kenki gage is now just basically a Shinten gage. The skill required to get your optimized burst out under raid buffs is reduced. The class is now easier to play, and therefore the reduced damage is justified.

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I've been playing a lot more DRG lately. Seriously considering dropping sam and hoping they fix it in 6.2.

Seeing this Thread this morning, put an evil grin on my face like no other.

I very much agree and support the OP's opinions and feelings on the matter.

Happy Easter!!!

Imagine being "happy" because part of a community suffers from the poor decisions made by a leader. Wow, that is pathetic. Guess I can call this my feeding of the troll, though. But you really should consider seeking help if that's how you obtain your joy.

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

The amount of toxicity, sarcasm, and gatekeeping in this thread is extreme.

People can have different opinions and change their minds with new information regardless of what stance you're on.

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Please, this is pathetic.

Glad OP isn't sam. developer! no one agree's your changes/idea's are worse then the one implemented =)

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Originally Posted by Ransu

I've been playing a lot more DRG lately. Seriously considering dropping sam and hoping they fix it in 6.2.

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DRG is supposed to be getting a rework in 6.2 right? There's a chance you're setting yourself up for a second round of disappointment

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Originally Posted by RaevusAstra

The amount of toxicity, sarcasm, and gatekeeping in this thread is extreme.

People can have different opinions and change their minds with new information regardless of what stance you're on.

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If you agree with OP's opinion then DRK living dead fix was a mistake, yes this is my opinion, you are toxic if you dont agree with me

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

That is very true, so I'll give a METAPHOR...

We love Pizza! and the Cheese is great! gives it amazing " Flavor " but our Cheese is replaced with CowSh*t. Were angry yet someone is yelling how " CowSh*t was the right choice, but it's not enough " as in don't stop there.

We know Pizza. Cheese on Pizza is universally accepted by Pizza lovers, impossible to argue. Yet the claim that we all should eat CowSh*T Pizza over Cheese? and encouraging to not stop there? Seems like false feedback. Who would love CowSh*T pizza? But even crazier? having people defend that opinion... I know right? And you can! But Pizza lovers will question if we both love Pizza cause Pizza and Cheese we want that back vs encouraging... the dismissive hottake of CowSh*T Pizza because CowSh*T on Pizza is...ya know, to put it blunt... quite literally Sh*T.

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We didn't even get CowSh*T. They just took our cheese away.

They took our cheese away and told us "We have to take the cheese away because we're going to improve the sauce later. Don't worry, once we improve the sauce in 4-20 months time we'll give you a different cheese."

And when we complain because we want cheese on our pizza or we're not going to eat it anymore, people tell us "Look, the pizza still has plenty of toppings!" or "It'll all be fine once they fix the sauce!" or "I'm lactose intolerant so this is a huge improvement!"

And then there's posts like the OP who say "Removing the cheese is a great idea, but it's not enough. Without the cheese the dough is really bland, so it should go too."

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Originally Posted by baklava151

DRG is supposed to be getting a rework in 6.2 right? There's a chance you're setting yourself up for a second round of disappointment

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It is what it is. I'll figure out what to play from there.

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Originally Posted by YukiB

We didn't even get CowSh*T. They just took our cheese away.

They took our cheese away and told us "We have to take the cheese away because we're going to improve the sauce later. Don't worry, once we improve the sauce in 4-20 months time we'll give you a different cheese."

And when we complain because we want cheese on our pizza or we're not going to eat it anymore, people tell us "Look, the pizza still has plenty of toppings!" or "It'll all be fine once they fix the sauce!" or "I'm lactose intolerant so this is a huge improvement!"

And then there's posts like the OP who say "Removing the cheese is a great idea, but it's not enough. Without the cheese the dough is really bland, so it should go too."

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Which is kinda par for course when it comes to dumb shit the devs do. Take a Job, rip a mechanic out, and then replace it with nothing. Remove MP drain from Darkside which leads to Dark Arts spam which leads to Dark Arts being removed and a hole in DRK's kit. Remove Greased Lightning from MNK and tell them to wait until 6.0 where they also remove most of their positionals just for good measure. Remove DoTs and Bane from SCH, ignore all feedback. Remove Kaiten, tell players it's to make room for new stuff in two years when the next expac drops. Can't wait to see how they gut DRG and AST in Patch 6.2.