After reading the patch notes, I guess I won't play SAM anymore

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Originally Posted by Anemic

As DNC being my main job, would you say this change is going to be better for SAM (DNC aside).

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It's a buff if RNGesus hates you and you never get a crit. If you were blessed with Crit though, it's a nerf

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Personally, I don't care about kaiten. That loss has no effect on me, and more consistent damage is better than RNG damage.

It felt awful having to pray for crits and direct crits to get decent runs.

So from my point of view, this is better.

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I'm still fairly new to a lot of the jobs and still struggle (mentally) with if I am doing the rotations correctly etc and always looking up info online. My SAM job is only 70 and from 1 to 70 thus far, been having a lot of fun with it. The job doesn't seem overly difficult like for example BLM (too much going on there for me personally, but then again my main job is DNC so yeah). I joined FFXIV last year at the end of August and have been mainly casual since.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Personally, I don't care about kaiten. That loss has no effect on me, and more consistent damage is better than RNG damage.

It felt awful having to pray for crits and direct crits to get decent runs.

So from my point of view, this is better.

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Have you considered the fact that Midare will be doing significantly less damage now?

Old Midare: 660 + Kaiten = 990, but can crit and direct hit on top of the 990

New Midare 600, no kaiten, and because it auto crits, that means you cannot get additional crit+dh damage on top of the 600.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Have you considered the fact that Midare will be doing significantly less damage now?

Old Midare: 660 + Kaiten = 990, but can crit and direct hit on top of the 990

New Midare 600, no kaiten, and because it auto crits, that means you cannot get additional crit+dh damage on top of the 600.

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That doesn't bother me any. It's now less punishing to not get lucky, which has nothing to do with skill.

Before, you could only get base potencies on them the whole fight if you were unlucky.

That feels terrible and has nothing to do with your ability

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

That doesn't bother me any. It's now less punishing to not get lucky, which has nothing to do with skill.

Before, you could only get base potencies on them the whole fight if you were unlucky.

That feels terrible and has nothing to do with your ability

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You realize that, compared to pre-patch, they basically made it so you only get base potencies all the time, right?

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

You realize that, compared to pre-patch, they basically made it so you only get base potencies all the time, right?

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OK? Damage is still pretty much equal to before patch, so why should that bother me. Big crits are fun, but it was only ever relief, not excitement, when I got them on clear runs.


Maybe it has something to do with my personal history, but I'm quite adaptable and stuff like this doesn't really faze me. People told me when SAM changed in 6.0 that I should just deal with the changes or move on, and "it shouldn't be changed to your wants". So I did. Now that one small issue from my point of view is fixed, I can probably enjoy the job again, but a lot of those same people are crying about the change. I just find that slightly funny.

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Originally Posted by Faafetai

Because the new players are having a very tough time playing the game apparently. The damage numbers between someone who has been playing the game for a year and someone just entering the game is too great. Even though that is literally what happens over time due to learning anything. So to become newbie friendly they are making a bunch of changes. Look forward to it.

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If you read the latest Yoshi P translations, it paints a different picture :

"Of course there are times where I thought of just flip the table and not change anything...but still...yeah on SAM's guaranteed critical, having that will make SAM's performance jump really high but there are also parts where SAM doesn't see drastic jump as they should...and on Kaiten getting removed we did that because we want to do away having to be restricted by that move, and as for its sub stats, the influence of those stats as the patch moves on will become bigger and bigger and it'll jump the job's performance really high, more so than expected and in reverse the numbers on lesser patch will see the job not jumping as high as the job should....hmmmm...Indeed, it is true that the job's strength and weakness will depend on whether the job's amount of critical dealt and I agree the job relied on that aspect too much, and as for the strength and weakness...yeah that's what it is. I of course do understand that this is part of the fun for the job....and, as for this time, we saw specific actions determined the the composition of DPS and perhaps it leaned way too much so we let some of the weapon skill value loose and we know that if we just increase the potency of weapon skill it'll result in those skills at lower level being too strong, so we adjusted on those values as well by... please refer to the new traits added to SAM located below. So...yeah, this is the adjustments for the job we made for this patch.

And then, I am also well aware of how the critical synergy works well with jobs...and I'm definitely aware, but this is also the overall problem of FFXIV itself, and there are discussions where we should have change that itself to begin with. But we can't be doing everything simultaneously at once so please understand that we want to tackle on that gradually. We do experience cases where it's hard to adjust when a skill with and without critical can cause such a huge disparity...and so we performed this adjustment precisely we care about that so I apologize but I'd like you to please give it a try first."

Part 2


"However, as for opinions, Of course we do and indeed read those properly, including those that think it's not right to over standardise jobs or comments like "you overdo yourself when it comes to our only trait or the optimization elements we have". We do indeed want to push it for as much as we could, and we are very well aware of people who understand this, as well as people who are already used to what they have now and people who told us not to do anything unnecessary. We really get that but in order for the expansion to continue and for each jobs to continue getting new actions, and whenever we think of trying to maintain the individual characteristics of each job, we found out that this "optimization" is quite tied and connected to the irregular element that was created in the past, and if we don't work to address this we can no longer build upon the existing elements and improve things further, and it'll land us in a situation where we can no longer steer ourselves forward. (edited)

Still, I of course do acknowledge that there are parts where people did not ask for, like Ninja or Samurai..and regarding Samurai's guaranteed Critical, we indeed struggled a lot on the balance adjustments due to the strong ratio fluctuation here, and we really attempted to close the variance gap for as much as we could, and we know this is done for the sake of job balance so I really appreciate if you can understand what we're trying to achieve here. You can send us feedback from there and if the voices of how a job's identity has been taken away too much then these comments will act as a reference to the direction of job balance and improvements we'll be performing in the future. So please, if you do think it matters to you, do send us a feedback regarding the matter.

Well, of course I am very well aware and understand that players will feel lonely and their displeasure will get really big when certain elements of the job they played and got used to for quite a long while now gets changed or removed, so it's not like we're purposely looking away these comments with disapproval or something, but it'll definitely be much appreciated if you can tell us which part you want us to retain or tell us more on which aspects are more favorable to you after touching on the adjustments so that we can take your comment as reference, and from there we'll know where to draw the line. I'll repeat myself that we really did all these adjustments for the sake of player's enjoyment here so I'll be thankful if you all can understand this. (The rest omitted) "

Translations taken from https://discord.gg/ffxiv

AND yet I'm still trying to figure out if this is a good thing or a bad thing for the SAM job.

+1 for dropping SAM in 6.1.
I'm a tank main anyway but having one of the only DPS classes I still enjoy get these sorts of changes is going to have me scurrying back to GNB for the rest of the expansion until they arbitarily come for us too. Frankly they can keep the potency changes and they could make SAM the worst DPS in the game for all I care, but by removing Kaiten they've seriously impacted the feel of the class and that's the dealbreaker for me, but I'm also one of those insane players who actually enjoys managing buffs and resources.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

If you like games like Dark souls or think every game is easy even on Very Hard or Hardcore mode chances are this patch is not meant for you people sort of like how FFXIV ARR is not meant for players who liked FFXIV 1.0.

These changes like Healers actually getting increased healing after pissing off the majority of their consumers with DPS Healers (Mainly Sages) going around barely healing. This is a welcome chance like the removal of the cross class system which I know you people loved. I know your a new guy but its was a painful system that forced you to level other classes to get abilities, you would of loved that system.

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This has "Go play Ultimate - YoshiP" energy all over it.

To give umm, simple breakdown of what is being stated here.

Kaiten is percent increase spent on high potency ability.

Potency increases apply onto the stack before critical damage is calculated. Soooo class that buffs high base potency skills that are used frequently will suffer more greatly when it fails to crit with frequency. At the least that is what he appears to be suggesting.

I do not believe this because there are plenty of classes with high base potency skills that were not adjusted due to "crit variance balancing". It was originally stated to have been removed to reduce action bloat and crit variance. Then why do we have crit materia and critical on armor at all? What game developer implements percentage based multipliers without understanding how deviation over time or outliers work?

Auto crit not only removes the effectiveness of entire substat, it impacts certain buffs such as Chain Stratagem (lowering rDPS of Scholar if Warrior/Sam/Mech is present). If you are Scholar player who happens to focus on optimization you will probably feel that sting however minute the loss is. Ohhh goodie there is a Samurai in the party.. there goes my chain strat!

Besides if this were truly about critical variance they would have simply made Kaiten cause the next weaponskill used to be critical then left it as Kenki spender. No no it is gone now because good players understood which weapon skills to buff with Kaiten while average players did not, the variance between these two groups was too great (especially if the buffed weaponskill was a critical hit). Much much of the easier to spam Shinten > Shinten > Shinten > Shinten instead. No thinking involved in that!

With all due respect to Yoshi P., I hope he knows that we've been telling him about the parts we don't like ever since he mentioned Kaiten being removed. We don't need to try the patch to tell him that the removal of Kaiten from our kit will suck; we've been able to see that for years now, every time we queue into alliance raid roulette and get CT. It's incredibly boring. Adding Shinten at 52 doesn't make the job interesting, it simply provides a jank justification for the continued existence of Kenki. You could remove the Kenki costs of everything, keep the current cooldowns and shift Shinten/Kyuten over to a four-charge-based 15s CD ability and no one would notice the Kenki gauge being gone.

I've seen the math based on these changes in the Balance discord's SAM lounge, but a big part of why I enjoyed the class is gone now. It did suck to not get that crit / dh during a Devilment buff, but boy it was extremely enjoyable to see that 100k+ Namikiri when it did.

I could understand them wanting to change crit buffs and variance as a whole, but why only one class and right before an Ultimate drop? Not to mention how arbitrary the changes are, such as how Higanbana got compensated but the other Kaiten'd abilities did not. SAMs essentially have to relearn their class right before Ultimate or pick a different melee. I will say that this is the patch that would've made me unsub permanently, but I have an obligation to my static since I'm locked in as their melee for the aforementioned Ultimate. Hopefully, based on the responses that Yoshi-P made to negative feedback in chat during the live letter reading, I have a feeling this change will be reverted or more buffs will come (but we will see).

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Actually I'm pretty sure it has more to do with it massively sucking when your opener has no crits and your damage nosedive because your biggest hits did half the damage of someone who got lucky.

It is not fun having a DRG and dnc partner, and getting a 0 crit opener.

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That is what everyone is dealing with. Even warrior. No matter how many things u make autocrit/DH, there will always be the next highest dmg contributor that does not, which in turn will define ur parse by its proc variance. On a warrior that is ur fell cleaves outside of IR and ur combo finishers and upheaval.

Even though ur sam big hitters auto crit now, there is still going to be that guy who does better than u because most of their combo finishers also crit/DH (the ones that give u the buff).

U want consistency? Remove all possible dmg variance. No more crit stat. No more DH stat. Just job mechanics that set up ur big hitters to hit even bigger. Or u can stop looking at ur parse numbers while doing the fight, focus on ur performance and let fate take care of the rest. Most of ur logs will come out to w/in expected range rates. There will be outliers both on the high end and the low end, it is what it is. Unless u r fishing for number 1 on ff logs, it literally does not matter so long as u feel content with ur performance in terms of GCD rolling and ability usage.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

That is what everyone is dealing with. Even warrior. No matter how many things u make autocrit/DH, there will always be the next highest dmg contributor that does not, which in turn will define ur parse by its proc variance. On a warrior that is ur fell cleaves outside of IR and ur combo finishers and upheaval.

Even though ur sam big hitters auto crit now, there is still going to be that guy who does better than u because most of their combo finishers also crit/DH (the ones that give u the buff).

U want consistency? Remove all possible dmg variance. No more crit stat. No more DH stat. Just job mechanics that set up ur big hitters to hit even bigger. Or u can stop looking at ur parse numbers while doing the fight, focus on ur performance and let fate take care of the rest. Most of ur logs will come out to w/in expected range rates. There will be outliers both on the high end and the low end, it is what it is. Unless u r fishing for number 1 on ff logs, it literally does not matter so long as u feel content with ur performance in terms of GCD rolling and ability usage.

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The problem is its a HUGE swing for SAM due to the potencies.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

The problem is its a HUGE swing for SAM due to the potencies.

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Then they can tweak the potencies, or add auto-crit to Kaiten (which won't affect Kaeshi's, meaning group crit buffs still have strong value with SAM's while simultaneously smoothing out damage). They had other options but they chose to gut the job by removing Kaiten and adding unnecessary auto-crit.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Then they can tweak the potencies, or add auto-crit to Kaiten (which won't affect Kaeshi's, meaning group crit buffs still have strong value with SAM's while simultaneously smoothing out damage). They had other options but they chose to gut the job by removing Kaiten and adding unnecessary auto-crit.

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I don't find kaiten disappearing "gutting", and Sam was my favorite job in ff before it released in XIV, which I then mained until 6.0. And I wasn't bad at it. I'm no 1%, but I did fairly well in most of the tiers I did.

Different opinions and all that.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I don't find kaiten disappearing "gutting", and Sam was my favorite job in ff before it released in XIV.

Different opinions and all that.

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And many people, myself included, don't find the new "Shinten gauge" we're getting to be particularly interesting or engaging. As others have said elsewhere, while Kaiten may have only required one single brain cell to use correctly, that was one more brain cell than spamming even more Shinten. Especially if you keep in mind what SE said about wanting to shift SAM away from Shinten spam at the beginning of ShB. Yet here we are now, back to spamming Shinten more than we have ever since, for less comparative damage to boot.

None of that sounds or feels good to me. So much stripped away in a single patch, how can it be described as anything *but* gutted?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I don't find kaiten disappearing "gutting", and Sam was my favorite job in ff before it released in XIV, which I then mained until 6.0. And I wasn't bad at it. I'm no 1%, but I did fairly well in most of the tiers I did.

Different opinions and all that.

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But I do find Kaiten disappearing "gutting", and Sam was my favorite job. I've been maining the job since it's release, and have also mained it in ff11. I've also loved the Samurai aesthetic well before video games and 14 captured the theme perfectly for me. I get some people might be okay with the changes, but understand many are not.

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Originally Posted by Roxus

But I do find Kaiten disappearing "gutting", and Sam was my favorite job. I've been maining the job since it's release, and have also mained it in ff11. I've also loved the Samurai aesthetic well before video games and 14 captured the theme perfectly for me. I get some people might be okay with the changes, but understand many are not.

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My problem is, when the job changed and I didn't like it, I was told to go find something else that fit my preferences. Now that its changing again, everyone wants the job to change to fit their preferences.

Its the double standard.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

My problem is, when the job changed and I didn't like it, I was told to go find something else that fit my preferences. Now that its changing again, everyone wants the job to change to fit their preferences.

Its the double standard.

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I'm not one of those people, don't lump me in with them. Thank you. If you were against the changes, you should freely speak your mind. You have that right as do we. If nothing comes of it, then it is what it is. Until then, please respect the people who want to voice their opinions.

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Originally Posted by Roxus

I'm not one of those people, don't lump me in with them. Thank you. If you were against the changes, you should freely speak your mind. You have that right as do we. If nothing comes of it, then it is what it is. Until then, please respect the people who want to voice their opinions.

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I didn't say you were, but some of the people complaining about these changes are the same people, and i just find that funny.


I also haven't said others can't have their own opinions, I've only ever stated my own.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

ISNIP.

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Who cares about FFXIV 1.0 we are at 6.1 now, not sure if you have realized this yet.
I need what ever you are smoking my god.

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

I've seen the math based on these changes in the Balance discord's SAM lounge, but a big part of why I enjoyed the class is gone now. It did suck to not get that crit / dh during a Devilment buff, but boy it was extremely enjoyable to see that 100k+ Namikiri when it did.

I could understand them wanting to change crit buffs and variance as a whole, but why only one class and right before an Ultimate drop? Not to mention how arbitrary the changes are, such as how Higanbana got compensated but the other Kaiten'd abilities did not. SAMs essentially have to relearn their class right before Ultimate or pick a different melee. I will say that this is the patch that would've made me unsub permanently, but I have an obligation to my static since I'm locked in as their melee for the aforementioned Ultimate. Hopefully, based on the responses that Yoshi-P made to negative feedback in chat during the live letter reading, I have a feeling this change will be reverted or more buffs will come (but we will see).

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Exactly... I have been a SAM main for over a year now and adored the job, I've got bis and am locked into a new ultimate static as their melee dps. I also want to unsub but I feel committed to the static.

I think I'm going to leave the empty space where Kaiten was and just keep pressing it during ultimate since it's built in to my muscle memory and was a pleasure to use and see.

Even the Guren and Goken changes to be circle aoe are distasteful and will kill the fun of positioning SAM in normal dungeons.

After ultimate my SAM will never be touched until changes are reverted, if ever, which is very upsetting.

These kind of changes are not appreciated in a patch just weeks before your most challenging content is being released. This should have been an expansion change.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

My problem is, when the job changed and I didn't like it, I was told to go find something else that fit my preferences. Now that its changing again, everyone wants the job to change to fit their preferences.

Its the double standard.

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I am seeing people be dismissive about the Kaiten removal, people who don't play SAM.
There's a lot of double-standards about this tho, it's the same with censorship in games too and if you're against it especially have a principled stance about it and call it out when you see it.
The same people who will mock you for it and jump aboard the '' who cares it doesn't matter '' train are the same people who will flip out when it's content they care about getting censored.

People just tunnel vision too hard and have issues looking at things from a broader context.
It's especially annoying and weird when it's people who aren't even affected by it.
People who don't play the Jobs who just chime in to mock people and gloat about it for no real reason.
This happened with MNK too in EW with MNK mains who were unhappy, there were people who only sat around gloating about it who didn't even play MNK and that's all they did.

I will have to see how it feels before I make any solid judgements on the changes. It doesn't sound terrible, but it very well could be. There are some concerns to be had in regards to potency nerfs across the board. But I will have to try it first to get my answer. I'm rather irritated by a number of things coming with this patch, and I'm hoping this won't be one of them. I love SAM.

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Originally Posted by Fable_Frost

Exactly... I have been a SAM main for over a year now and adored the job, I've got bis and am locked into a new ultimate static as their melee dps. I also want to unsub but I feel committed to the static.

I think I'm going to leave the empty space where Kaiten was and just keep pressing it during ultimate since it's built in to my muscle memory and was a pleasure to use and see.

Even the Guren and Goken changes to be circle aoe are distasteful and will kill the fun of positioning SAM in normal dungeons.

After ultimate my SAM will never be touched until changes are reverted, if ever, which is very upsetting.

These kind of changes are not appreciated in a patch just weeks before your most challenging content is being released. This should have been an expansion change.

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Indeed, was a dopamine button. Also check out this link, some optimism if enough SAM players stay vocal.

There is 19 other jobs you can try out. I am a white mage main; so I understand the pain of changes or no changes. But, it allowed me to try the 3 other healers in higher end content; and it was fun. (and a real growth spurt)
Including you don't even know how its going to feel yet until the patch drops in a few hours. Give it a chance and see if you like it. If you do, great! If not; its not the end of the world. Heck I still ran my happy butt as a clunky white mage through savage and still had fun with its short comings. Practically forced me to never die lulz. Its great.

(I don't know how to cheer you up, but that was my intention.)

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

Indeed, was a dopamine button. Also check out this link, some optimism if enough SAM players stay vocal.

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Ehh... Kaiten is most likely gone for good. That's one reason for the negative feedback, because those SAM players know that its return is extremely unlikely. There's no need to develop a defeatist attitude about it like keeping it around as a phantom skill you press due to muscle memory. C'mon now.

I don't dismiss the impact this has on how the job feels, but I know SAM players will get used to its removal, and will very likely do so before even getting the mechs from the new alliance raid down. For me personally, Ogi is going where Kaiten used to be. I am a controller user and it was previously on my third crossbar set (least used ability set), but definitely preferred to have it on my first set. I just did not have room for it. I had to place the ability on a hotbar in order to monitor its cooldown, now I don't have to do any of that. Kaiten removal is definitely a benefit to me personally, but also will be missed. I LOVED that skill.

However, Ikoshoten and Third Eye are also on the first set, each of which could have been used to address that I did not have room for Ogi (Iko changing to Ogi, or Third Eye being deleted from the game), and Kaiten could have been left intact. It neither here or there now, but perhaps some hindsight for the dev team is in order.

Confusing tbh as to why they would change Samurais cone to a circle, but they designed Reaper from the ground up and let It slide into the game with a cone attack on Its "Grim Reaping" and "Lemure's Scythe" abilities. Like whats the point you're probably going to change It later with this design path you've been taking. Should've just made It a circle to begin with.

Ah well, might give SAM a try in this case. I mean, can't miss something you never had ;)

Guaranteed crit is not exciting when it does 1/4th the damage as before

Time to farm the rest of reaper BIS 2 weeks before ultimate sigh =(

reaper is even more braindead than SAM is now

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

If you like games like Dark souls or think every game is easy even on Very Hard or Hardcore mode chances are this patch is not meant for you people sort of like how FFXIV ARR is not meant for players who liked FFXIV 1.0.

These changes like Healers actually getting increased healing after pissing off the majority of their consumers with DPS Healers (Mainly Sages) going around barely healing. This is a welcome chance like the removal of the cross class system which I know you people loved. I know your a new guy but its was a painful system that forced you to level other classes to get abilities, you would of loved that system.

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Someone's salty a healer out-parsed him.

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Originally Posted by forsakee

Guaranteed crit is not exciting when it does 1/4th the damage as before

Time to farm the rest of reaper BIS 2 weeks before ultimate sigh =(

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Yeah the crits are very small it feels so dull to crit now.
In my weekly clear today I got the DNC partner over the SAM lol, there was like this sad atmosphere about it.

It's just completely baffling I've never seen anyone ever complain about Kaiten existing.........
And all of these people who don't even have SAM leveled up and don't even play it defending it while not even understanding what the problem is, it's infuriating.

Imagine thinking that using Kaiten = hardcore/ elitist.
Just lol, people have such an insanely low bar for it that I don't think is reflected ingame at all, most random people I play with ingame even in dungeons play totally fine and would be considered ultra hardcore elite 1337 according to people on the forum.

I too miss my big numbers. Unironically.

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Originally Posted by Hyuinn

Aside from Third Eye extended duration, every change seems to homogenize Samurai to be just like any other DPS, or even worse.

There was no reason for Tenka Goken to be changed from a cone to circle, and nothing was changed to address what every SAM player suggested (merging shohas, ogi namikiri, guren merge with senei). If every job AoE is a circle, none of them will feel special or unique, you just go in the dungeon and do the same thing with a different attire.

Not only that, they made Wanderer's Minuet change into Pitch Perfect which was Literally what we were asking to change in Ikishoten / Ogi Namikiri. It's almost as if the devs don't share ideas or don't want to help each other.

As far as potency goes I can't say much about it. I know it'll probably do the same overall DPS but certainly does not feel nice to read your 990 potency skill (with kaiten) that could crit went to 600 but always crit.

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Ok, What else ?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Ehh... Kaiten is most likely gone for good. That's one reason for the negative feedback, because those SAM players know that its return is extremely unlikely. There's no need to develop a defeatist attitude about it like keeping it around as a phantom skill you press due to muscle memory. C'mon now.

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They re-added Hagakure after similar backlash during the start of SHB, you never know.