Another raid complaint

This Savage tier is embarrassing at every level.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

Meanwhile week 1 we had to mitigate every single AOE because otherwise our DPS would have died.

This is simply possible because the tanks are BiS and the fight don't have unpredictable mechanic's.

Nothing is broken, it is just a consequence of Tank's dealing a good bit of damage.

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Oh my god, the quality of the playerbase seems to have dropped so much that having to press Reprisal or Shield Samba is asking for too much.

The only two things you needed to mitigate in week 1 is Sewage and Coherence. And 20% was enough for that, and that's trivial when you have like 80% mitigation spread across the entire party these days.

Multiple attempts to get things to go their way and probably just as many spent practicing the fight, memorizing the precise movement patterns they needed to use, etc. just so they could barely scrape by. Self-healing is the only thing warrior has. It's no surprise (and honestly not even what I would call a problem) that people can use meme comps to complete some savage content. It's happened before, and it'll happen again. Nobody raised a stink when it was paladins doing it, funnily enough.

At any rate, they won't meet the DPS requirements in P3S and onward because of how weak WAR is on the damage front. P3S might be doable if they get super lucky, but their odds of completing P4S are pretty much zero.

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Originally Posted by WhiteWitch

Had a taste of 3 savage clears at 80, decided it wasn't for me. Can't imagine it now with WAR/PLD cheesing the game.
There's just nothing to keep me around so I've started the Devil may cry series and playing genshin impact on the side KEK

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Yet you still hang around the forums. Let it go.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Come on lets just go back to EverQuest 1

Where your character couldn't even go to the outhouse without a full party...

SOUNDS LIKE A JOLLY GOOD TIME!!

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I went from 31-60 solo, grinding on mobs.

Good times indeed.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Lol you sound like Yoshi P right now. “Go do ultimate if you want actual engaging content as a healer.” First of all, i healed this entire tier, so you might want to re-check that if you’re going to look me up. My point which i’ve stated if you’d had read the actual thread, is that this is literally current content.It’s been out for what, 2 months? And people have already been able to complete it with all tanks. It’s just another example of them undertuning fights but also just poor designs period. I shouldn’t have to place limitations on myself to make content more engaging. If that’s what’s necessary then that’s absolutely poor design plain and simple.

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The irony about Yoshida's comment is that UCoB and UwU completely fall over nowadays. Sure, they still do a fair amount of damage but the DPS checks have become so laughable, you can skip Nael Divebombs without pots. This trivializes one of the hardest mechanics in the entire fight. In UwU, all three Primals are basically EXs as they get thoroughly obliterated. So we really have one Ultimate in TEA that has been scaled properly. So if Yoshida is going to make that comment, maybe the dev team should actually scale Ultimate up to 90 so the fights remain challenging.

I saw a solo healer p2s party in pf yesterday. After trying solo healing zodiex myself it seems like a fun challenge

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

People calling for balancing changes over what the top 0.01% do for fun to test their absolute limits is such a confusing line of thinking for me.

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Games, especially competitive ones, are balanced around the highest level of play. That's just the norm.

I wouldn't use this example to justify healer changes, its true that healers are necessary there by artifical means (having role especirfic mechanics instead of actually having to heal) but if the post has no hyperbole and it was truly only warriors wouldn't it also say dps classes also be considered unnecesary? Im also desperate for healers to feel better to play but this is borderline doomposting.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Games, especially competitive ones, are balanced around the highest level of play. That's just the norm.

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>Implying FF14 is even slightly a competitive game

FF14 is the pinnacle definition of an extremely casual experience, even the devs are casual.

Besides, if they developed balance purely around what the top % of people can do, every single savage fight's dps check would be unclearable except the top 1% of players at BiS, which is asinine thinking in an MMO environment. Look at gordias to see how well balancing closer to that end of the spectrum gets you.

You balance around the audience you intend to target with the game content, it's braindead logic that even the most novice game designer can grasp in any game design. The devs have said across many liveletters & QAs that the first two floors of savage are specifically balanced around people newer to savage raiding or those more comfortable with Extreme trial levels of difficulty, as the 1st two fights are effectively extreme trial+, so its not really surprising when the top 0.01% can do an 8-war clear when the fight is balanced closer to the midcore audience than the hardcore.

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Originally Posted by SenseiMaria

>Implying FF14 is even slightly a competitive game

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People compete via FFlogs all the time, what do you mean?

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Originally Posted by SenseiMaria

Besides, if they developed balance purely around what the top % of people can do, every single savage fight's dps check would be unclearable except the top 1% of players at BiS, which is asinine thinking in an MMO environment. Look at gordias to see how well balancing closer to that end of the spectrum gets you.

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What kind of argument is this? Do you really think balancing around the highest level of play means that anyone that’s not in the top 1% would be unable to clear the dps check? It's like you missed the point entirely.

Balancing classes around players at the highest skill level should be done because it accurately sets the ceiling for that classes' dps and utility. The reason why you don't balance a class around casual players is because it skews what’s considered acceptable in terms of dps/utility. For example, if casual players can’t play a class optimally and their dps/utility suffers because of it, and then the devs buff that class to make up for the deficit, how would that class play in the hands of a top tier player? It would be massively overpowered – like 8 tanks clearing p2s overpowered. This is what balancing around the highest skilled players means.

Obviously the savage fights need to be tuned up, but I am not seeing an exacerbation of the healer issue if that is the point of the thread, especially if the fight was undertuned on purpose as was stated. IOW, this is just a different way of pointing out the healer's lack of engagement issue.

Again, I don't think Yoshi was being dismissive with saying to try ultimate. Considering that they have undertuned this current tier, and savage runners will have to wait until 6.2 for the next one, you guys kind of don't have much choice, right? Is it also possible they undertune the fights for those new to savage raids? Just tossing some haymakers.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Again, I don't think Yoshi was being dismissive with saying to try ultimate. Considering that they have undertuned this current tier, and savage runners will have to wait until 6.2 for the next one, you guys kind of don't have much choice, right?

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The thing is that for the entirety of ShB, people have complained about the healer engagement, which he completely dodged to instead talk about difficulty. But as far as difficulty for the healer role goes, right now the SB Ultimates are absolutely trivialized by gear, and even for TEA, if you somewhat know what you're doing with your job (which honestly, what would someone clueless about their job be doing in Ultimate?) you're still spamming DPS GCDs 80% of the time, and it's really not that engaging. What makes Ultimate difficult is that it's a marathon that depending on who you're raiding with can very much be mentally straining, it is a big commitment that no one should be told to make to be engaged by their job. Additionally in Ultimate, a mechanic being failed = one shot or wipe 95% of the time. You can't heal a one shot, you can't heal a wipe.
On top of that, healers who complain about healer engagement likely either have already cleared and farmed the Ultimates we currently have, especially since we had a loooot of time in ShB to do that, or they very understandably chose not to participate in such content. It's also a really really tone deaf thing to say when we haven't had an Ultimate in nearly 2 years and none of them allow healers to play with their lv90 kit.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Is it also possible they undertune the fights for those new to savage raids? Just tossing some haymakers.

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At this point especially P1S is only savage in name, as far as difficulty goes, it's an extreme fight. I don't really vibe with giving savage extreme-tier difficulty for the sake of "accessibility", people sign up for savage to do savage, not extreme.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

The thing is that for the entirety of ShB, people have complained about the healer engagement, which he completely dodged to instead talk about difficulty. But as far as difficulty for the healer role goes, right now the SB Ultimates are absolutely trivialized by gear, and even for TEA, if you somewhat know what you're doing with your job (which honestly, what would someone clueless about their job be doing in Ultimate?) you're still spamming DPS GCDs 80% of the time, and it's really not that engaging. What makes Ultimate difficult is that it's a marathon that depending on who you're raiding with can very much be mentally straining, it is a big commitment that no one should be told to make to be engaged by their job. Additionally in Ultimate, a mechanic being failed = one shot or wipe 95% of the time. You can't heal a one shot, you can't heal a wipe.

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I get what you're saying here, but I think he was referring to the new ultimate coming in 6.1x? That would be the next step up. But you also kind of dodged the point. If the current savage tier is not engaging, then where else is there to go other than the new ultimate? I also wonder why ultimate is being dismissed before even running it? That would be like me saying that the difficulty on EX needs to be raised because I am not engaged enough, and then someone tells me to run savage; and my response to that is, "no". Just tune up EX, or better yet; just overhaul healing, or nerf tank sustainability.

That is kind of the angle I am seeing things from.

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On top of that, healers who complain about healer engagement likely either have already cleared and farmed the Ultimates we currently have, especially since we had a loooot of time in ShB to do that, or they very understandably chose not to participate in such content. It's also a really really tone deaf thing to say when we haven't had an Ultimate in nearly 2 years and none of them allow healers to play with their lv90 kit.

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I would hope so. Otherwise their arguments hold the same weight as the example I set for myself above.

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At this point especially P1S is only savage in name, as far as difficulty goes, it's an extreme fight. I don't really vibe with giving savage extreme-tier difficulty for the sake of "accessibility", people sign up for savage to do savage, not extreme.

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I agree and disagree. I think it's a good thing to try and open the more difficult fights to players who are a little on the edge about doing them or not. But I also think that these encounters should live up to the name. When I reflect on older discussions, I seem to recall some EX fights being comparable to x1s, and x2s encounters; and I think even Shiva Unreal was said to have a tight window similar to lower tier savage fights. So it would seem that the lower difficulty early on really isn't anything new. In this case though, there is a new Ultimate coming soon. And if the majority of those who are griping do run ultimate, then I'm not comprehending the issue other than wanting to tune-up what's locked in place.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Obviously the savage fights need to be tuned up, but I am not seeing an exacerbation of the healer issue if that is the point of the thread, especially if the fight was undertuned on purpose as was stated. IOW, this is just a different way of pointing out the healer's lack of engagement issue.

Again, I don't think Yoshi was being dismissive with saying to try ultimate. Considering that they have undertuned this current tier, and savage runners will have to wait until 6.2 for the next one, you guys kind of don't have much choice, right? Is it also possible they undertune the fights for those new to savage raids? Just tossing some haymakers.

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We're level 90. The time to undertune fights is well over. It is called Savage for a reason. Before Savage we have Ex. Before Ex we have Raids. Before Raids we have trials.

RAIDS should be undertuned in my opinion. They're optional side content we can unlock. Yes, they have story, but so does everything in FFXIV. It isn't MSQ, it shouldn't be an excuse. Savage should be a test of one's skill as not just a dps, but also a tank and healer. They do not.

They were not happy with Heavensward Savage clear rates, so they lowered the difficulty and in return introduced Ultimates in Stromblood. Nowadays, the first two floors of Savage are about Extreme difficulty or close to it. They want Savage to be accessible to more people, at least the first two floors.

Personally, I wish we go back to Alexander: Midas difficulty.