Y'shtola is a Mary Sue.

Eh, how about that's exactly what makes her unique?

I actually getting pretty tired at the over-the-top personalized story. We have like what? About 2-3 dozens or so NPC, and they all like have the same templates. Even if their story is good, it's akin to if you eating from the same meal for months you'll get tired of it even if it's 5-stars gourmet. At that point even regular fast food would feel refreshing. Case in point: the "class quests" are so repetitive that I can almost tell how of them play out: tell me your soap story, tell me your past, your indentity crisis and I'll give you some encouragement, rise and repeat.


Y'shtola is a refreshing change. Here is a woman who had already know her lot, she has conviction and know her purpose whatever what comes. She already know who she is, and does not need some superficial indentity crisis for grow. Call her plain if you want, but in a sea of "special", being a normie is what make her unique.

Hell, I hope in the new story arch moving forward we'll get less of these soap box personal story that's pretty much dime in a dozen in the game at this point. I wouldn't mind getting a some NPC more similar to Y'shtola.

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Originally Posted by LLSmoothJ

Honestly, if the title replaced "Mary Sue" with "flat character" or something similar I probably would've never responded as it seems to be more accurate of your criticism. My whole thing is if you're going to criticize a character, do it right and use the correct term.

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lyse is a flat character
venat, moenbryda and yshtola are mary sues to different degrees

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

lyse is a flat character
venat, moenbryda and yshtola are mary sues to different degrees

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How can Moenbryda be a mary sue if she died and stayed dead within one patch?

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Originally Posted by weebtext

How can Moenbryda be a mary sue if she died and stayed dead within one patch?

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the original fanfic from where the term "Mary Sue" comes has this such lieutenant mary sue, who was the youngest lt. to board the enterprise because of her exceptional skills, ultimately die in a sacrifice to save everyone.
it's part of the package of being a mary sue

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Originally Posted by weebtext

Completely agree with you, hell even Zenos is a prettier woman than Y'shtola could ever hope to be.

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So what you're saying is...sometimes, it takes a real man to be the best girl.

I approve.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

lyse is a flat character
venat, moenbryda and yshtola are mary sues to different degrees

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How on earth is Venat a Mary Sue??

Her kind come with the inherent gift of creation and super powerful magics . Emet Selch is by far one of the most powerful and skilled of his kind Venat is at heart a flawed empathetic motherly woman whom has different beliefs to her kin ( the live free traveller)

If she was a mary sue , she would have kicked Zodiarks ass on her own with help from no man , type story trope . Skilled in everyway but better than her peers is what a Mary Sue is, a Mcgyver with boobs.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

There are so many better designed female characters that the fact Y'shtola is the postergirl for this game is straight up criminal.

If you put Y'shtola up against a character with Venat's face and classic long fantasy hair in any other outfit that isn't the robe the ancients wear, there would be no contest as to who would be more popular. Lyse, while a grating character for various reasons also looked quite decent once she got her red dress. Yugiri has always looked great as well, etc.

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People like her. She's different enough looking from a stereotypical human or other generic race, while still appealing. YOU don't have to like her, it's enough that others do, and there's a pretty large Y'shtola fan base.

That being said, the Elpis arc has shown that other companions can be fun, too, and the scions are probably gonna step back now and make room for a new cast of characters, while being in the background, more like the faction leaders. At least I'd guess that's gonna happen, but we'll see.

Only just replying here to say that neither is Y'shtola a Mary Sue, nor G'raha Tia a Gary Stu. Neither of both are a) perfect OR b) self-inserts by the authors. And it is utterly irrelevant whether you like them or not, these are character type definitions, not private, FC-internal slang.

Y'shtola is fine, if only a little on the bland side, but that isn't bad per se. I did like how at the end of EW even she broke her composed poker face, it showed she's capable of expressing concern, and then showed embarrassment about writing a book. Those are little moments that make her feel less robotic without breaking character.

What annoys me though is she's used as the exposition character - pausing the tension of the moment to explain what's going on, instead of letting the audience connect the dots by themselves. Like, say, when G'raha "betrayed" us at Mt Gulg, was her "theorizing" his plan really necessary, when 2 quests later we get an Echo flashback to confirm it anyways? imo it killed the mood, and she did it again with the Ea. "you have the crystal, but must not use it" yeah, whatever, see you in a few minutes.

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Originally Posted by SeiyaSoiya

lyse is a flat character
venat, moenbryda and yshtola are mary sues to different degrees

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Lyse had plenty of development.
Moenbryda had little time to go anywhere.
Y'shtola is what's called an "iconic character". Indie Jones, Sherlock Holmes and others fall into that category. They're defined and not changing much over the course of time.

Seriously, people, learn your tropes before you throw terms around you don't understand.
Maybe read some actual books.

Im surprised Yugiri isn't more loved . She is one of the more popular races amongst players and she has that tough and mysterious sexiness about her.

She had a masked appearance leading up to Stormblood making the reveal a nice plot moment when she was with Tataru, and when we share those moments together on the beach on Yanxia , whether it was just simply great VA direction or the dialogue combined she sounds like she actually loves you or is at the point of past deep respect into the very fond of, territory .



Yugiri is best girl , and I'd put a ring on that finger in a heart beat

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

*sigh* FFXIV players please wake up to flawed writing challenge...

If after 10 years Y'shtola's character has gone literally nowhere, it's time to sideline and retire her. But I suppose her alleged fans want her to become this game's Sylvanas, despite being far less interesting than her. Forgive me, but I'm not willing to tolerate another 10 years of her continued presence with how little she contributes.

Give us another Ysayle, Ryne, literally any other female character that shows meaningful growth over the course of the story.

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lol @ Ryne

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Originally Posted by Alpheus

just have to look at Shantoto from FFXI being the poster character for that installment when there was a plethora of more interesting characters to do so

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Shantotto was a great character in her own right, though. Where she stepped, everybody else would take a step back.

Everything is a Mary Sue to someone

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Originally Posted by Seymour_Rainecourt

Shantotto was a great character in her own right, though. Where she stepped, everybody else would take a step back.

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You're not wrong I just felt there were other characters more deserving but the only thing that sucked (and why i just roll my eyes at her being the FFXI rep) was that if I recall correctly the poll that determined her inclusion in Dissidia was held in Japanese language channels (with no announcement to the global FFXI player base) despite FFXI having a NA/EU player base that played alongside with the JP player base. But I do agree with your overall point that she at least isn't bland like Yshtola but I'm kind of sick of her by this point and wish FFXI would get a new rep like Iroha or Lilisette or give more of a focus on Prishe (I mean if I could declare a rep I'd pick a Galka or Gessho or Raubhan[XI] or Luzaf).

Edit: I do enjoy Shantoto's ENG VA work though, exactly as she should sound so it is nice to see her around in other games but I just hate that she's THE go to character from XI to be included in those things.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

A character having no weaknesses does though.

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I see you skipped though the early parts of Stormblood.

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Originally Posted by Krojack

I see you skipped though the early parts of Stormblood.

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I see you skipped over the discussion and just read the original post.

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Originally Posted by Krojack

I see you skipped though the early parts of Stormblood.

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Ah yes. Who could forget one of her most prominent fakeouts. That was a fun time.

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Originally Posted by Izar_Chillen

Im surprised Yugiri isn't more loved . She is one of the more popular races amongst players and she has that tough and mysterious sexiness about her.

She had a masked appearance leading up to Stormblood making the reveal a nice plot moment when she was with Tataru, and when we share those moments together on the beach on Yanxia , whether it was just simply great VA direction or the dialogue combined she sounds like she actually loves you or is at the point of past deep respect into the very fond of, territory .



Yugiri is best girl , and I'd put a ring on that finger in a heart beat

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Biggest disappointment in EW for me was that Yugiri was side-lined.
She has been around since ARR and helped us a lot after the ending to ARR, she was one of the few allies we had left.
All we got from her in EW was a view of her back in the end credits.

Imo she should've taken Doman soldiers with her to help us in Garlemald.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Biggest disappointment in EW for me was that Yugiri was side-lined.
She has been around since ARR and helped us a lot after the ending to ARR, she was one of the few allies we had left.
All we got from her in EW was a view of her back in the end credits.

Imo she should've taken Doman soldiers with her to help us in Garlemald.

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She was in the Phys Ranged DPS role quest in EW also , un-voice acted ( all the major characters in the EW Job qs were silent) which was poor .
I too would like to have had her at my side with Higiri etc when we went to resolve the Garlemald situation

Apparently, the majority of her character growth takes place off screen during her time on the first before we arrive. When we arrive, those who have interacted the most and closest with the Scions all describe recognizable behavioral traits about them. The Fae mentioning Urianger's penchant for words and verboseness. Ryne talking about Thancred's stern and distant demeanor while still keeping her close, etc. When it came to Runar and the Night's Blessed though, their overwhelming dedication to Y'shtola was out of place. Not because grandeur is not her forte (lol); it is in fact because she's an insufferable know-it-all. Granted, I don't think she was given much choice. That tribe seemed to function instinctively, and didn't have much in way of leadership, direction, or counsel. Sadly, we didn't get to see any of that happen.

She's not my favorite Scion that's for sure, but I don't consider her a Mary Sue. She just has really, really thick plot armor. Same can be said for all the Scions.

Y'shtola is one of the main faces of FFXIV I don't know where you are getting the idea she is a Mary Sue from.

Implying she has no flaws is wrong imo because when put to the test her methods arent exactly working out cleanly all the time. Her first flow attempt lead to both thancred and her being out of comission for a significant amount of time with both of them carrying life long weaknesses from it. Her stubborness and worrying almost drove the scions apart in the first with her turning away from the crystal exarch and her clashing heads with both thancred (who did deserve it for being the shittiest dad in the world) and with urianger (who didnt deserve it). Her insecurity almost got alisaie and graha killed in endwalker, the wol had to save the day there.

She is trying to keep a cool head because that's how matoya operates, she berates others in not polite ways because that's the behavior she learned from matoya. In general her social skills arent exactly stellar. She is barely keeping contact with her sister even though there is seemingly nothing to suggest there would be animosity between them.

Comparing different character with each other is difficult, what works for one character because of their circumstances and experiences wont work for another. It wouldnt make sense for yshtola to show a lot of emotion because that's not really what she would have learned from matoya. Is she going to develop ptsd from everything that happened? Possibly. Is she going to seek help for it? Doubtful. I feel like that's the kind of person yshtola is. Doesnt break down quickly but when she does, it is in spectacular manner. Luckily she had the support of the rest of the party and friendship always wins in the end because that's the kind of story ff14 is. Hope wins in the end and while the wol has experienced traumatic losses, once our goal was clear and our convictions tested the victory was not going to be a pyrrhic one.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Implying she has no flaws is wrong imo because when put to the test her methods arent exactly working out cleanly all the time. Her first flow attempt lead to both thancred and her being out of comission for a significant amount of time with both of them carrying life long weaknesses from it. Her stubborness and worrying almost drove the scions apart in the first with her turning away from the crystal exarch and her clashing heads with both thancred (who did deserve it for being the shittiest dad in the world) and with urianger (who didnt deserve it). Her insecurity almost got alisaie and graha killed in endwalker, the wol had to save the day there.

She is trying to keep a cool head because that's how matoya operates, she berates others in not polite ways because that's the behavior she learned from matoya. In general her social skills arent exactly stellar. She is barely keeping contact with her sister even though there is seemingly nothing to suggest there would be animosity between them.

Comparing different character with each other is difficult, what works for one character because of their circumstances and experiences wont work for another. It wouldnt make sense for yshtola to show a lot of emotion because that's not really what she would have learned from matoya. Is she going to develop ptsd from everything that happened? Possibly. Is she going to seek help for it? Doubtful. I feel like that's the kind of person yshtola is. Doesnt break down quickly but when she does, it is in spectacular manner. Luckily she had the support of the rest of the party and friendship always wins in the end because that's the kind of story ff14 is. Hope wins in the end and while the wol has experienced traumatic losses, once our goal was clear and our convictions tested the victory was not going to be a pyrrhic one.

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If she did this, it would make her more believable. Yet, if the destruction of the universe would not do it, then I don't know what would.

You have to remember as well, Y'shtola is also burning her life away with her ability to see aether I would say that's a big flaw right there.

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Originally Posted by Garruss

You have to remember as well, Y'shtola is also burning her life away with her ability to see aether I would say that's a big flaw right there.

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Still waiting to see any consequences from that.

So you want to see her die? Cause that's what it would mean

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Originally Posted by Garruss

So you want to see her die? Cause that's what it would mean

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Die? Not necessarily. Be bedridden for a few days from exhaustion. Experience some kind of temporary side effect of overexertion maybe?

I don't think burning years off your life works that way, getting tired due to it's effects. I mean if you really want to complain about a Mary Sue well Zenos

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

If she did this, it would make her more believable. Yet, if the destruction of the universe would not do it, then I don't know what would.

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Well, we arent doing darkest dungeon style breakdown checks in this story and the reason she has endured is found within the next sentence. She pretty much has a perfect hero to steady herself with in form of the wol. The end of the universe isnt nearly as soul crushing if you have prepared to fight it head on with a real chance of success. Powerlessness is what is leading to despair and but together the scions and the wol found a way to not be powerless in the face of galactic doom (but not certain doom).

The more powerful the wol became, the easier it got for others to depend on the wol and the more strength it gives them. That is the wol's superpower, gathering allies and lifting them up. If there is any mary sue like character in the story, it's purely the wol.

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Originally Posted by Garruss

I don't think burning years off your life works that way, getting tired due to it's effects. I mean if you really want to complain about a Mary Sue well Zenos

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I disagree. Zenos has been shown to have great abilities true, but he has been shown to be an emotionally and mentally disturbed being. He has a gaping void in his heart that he doesn't know how to fill, and mistakenly thinks he can fill it by fighting us. He suffers from eternal boredom. He didn't care about putting a world through suffering to get what he wanted. He was not portrayed as a mentally stable individual.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

If there is any mary sue like character in the story, it's purely the wol.

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I agree with this, but the WoL represents the player. I find the WoL to be extremely boring as well, but I recognize the tricky balancing act being performed by having the WoL represent us. Go too far from neutral and you risk upsetting players. Heck, that even happened this expansion when the player didn't get the option to disagree with certain choices other characters made...

I will have to disagree with you there in every way possible, a horrid character who's time ran out back in Stormblood who was brought back and given in your own terms a "Mary Sue" like status. But we will have to agree to disagree there but no way in hell is Zenos as a character on the same league or character development as Y'shtola

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Originally Posted by Garruss

I will have to disagree with you there in every way possible, a horrid character who's time ran out back in Stormblood who was brought back and given in your own terms a "Mary Sue" like status. But we will have to agree to disagree there but no way in hell is Zenos as a character on the same league or character development as Y'shtola

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I suppose the disagreement lies in the fact that I feel that the game portrayed Zenos's ideas and mindset wrong at every opportunity, whereas they didn't do this with Y'shtola. Zenos was portrayed as a villain and called out by multiple people for his way of thinking.

He was a one-note villain he slaughter people for his amusement and only wanted to fight if you ask me he was a sickening character and in some ways was designed for people to hate too. But he was a very dead-end character whose story should have ended in Stormblood and in my opinion, he should have stayed gone

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Originally Posted by Garruss

He was a one-note villain he slaughter people for his amusement and only wanted to fight if you ask me he was a sickening character and in some ways was designed for people to hate too. But he was a very dead-end character whose story should have ended in Stormblood and in my opinion, he should have stayed gone

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In the same vein, Y'shtola is a one-note character. She only seeks the pursuit of knowledge and that's it. She never wavers or shows vulnerability no matter the circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I disagree. Zenos has been shown to have great abilities true, but he has been shown to be an emotionally and mentally disturbed being. He has a gaping void in his heart that he doesn't know how to fill, and mistakenly thinks he can fill it by fighting us. He suffers from eternal boredom. He didn't care about putting a world through suffering to get what he wanted. He was not portrayed as a mentally stable individual.



I agree with this, but the WoL represents the player. I find the WoL to be extremely boring as well, but I recognize the tricky balancing act being performed by having the WoL represent us. Go too far from neutral and you risk upsetting players. Heck, that even happened this expansion when the player didn't get the option to disagree with certain choices other characters made...

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There is a time and a place for every trope and as the player character the wol is that place for a mary sue character. I dont find the wol boring because your imagination is supposed to fill in the gaps. Although I do appreciate the increasingly sassy dialogue options.

Zenos is an incredibly bland character. He's evil because he's always been evil, he quite literally just hunts people for sport. He would still be pure evil in far darker stories. I get why people dont like him as villian, i personally did enjoy his character trope this time. He had exactly one moment of character development and it was basically spelled out for him by alisaie.

Also, if being bedridden for a while amounts to real consequences, then her missing from most of stormblood because of zenos almost cutting her in half is consequences. Her being lost and drifting through the aetherial sea is consequences she experienced.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

In the same vein, Y'shtola is a one-note character. She only seeks the pursuit of knowledge and that's it. She never wavers or shows vulnerability no matter the circumstances.

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Have we played the same game? She is plenty flustered in shadowbringers and endwalker. She is deeply worried about the wol's health and definitely shows a lot of insecurity and hesitation over it for someone who has a very reserved upbringing.

A lot of that insecurity and hesitation is also rooted in her not being able to see like other people. She has to rely on her aether sight and it has mislead her specifically in crucial situations.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Zenos is an incredibly bland character. He's evil because he's always been evil, he quite literally just hunts people for sport. He would still be pure evil in far darker stories. I get why people dont like him as villian, i personally did enjoy his character trope this time. He had exactly one moment of character development and it was basically spelled out for him by alisaie.

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It could have been anything. He sought fulfillment that would fill the void in his heart. He mistakenly thought a challenge would do this. If videogames were a thing and someone challenged him in videogames, he would have pursued them with the same fervor. It's childish in a way really, but he was never allowed an emotionally mature upbringing so that makes sense. He doesn't know what friendship or love is at all. But this isn't about Zenos.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Also, if being bedridden for a while amounts to real consequences, then her missing from most of stormblood because of zenos almost cutting her in half is consequences. Her being lost and drifting through the aetherial sea is consequences she experienced.



Have we played the same game? She is plenty flustered in shadowbringers and endwalker. She is deeply worried about the wol's health and definitely shows a lot of insecurity and hesitation over it for someone who has a very reserved upbringing.

A lot of that insecurity and hesitation is also rooted in her not being able to see like other people. She has to rely on her aether sight and it has mislead her specifically in crucial situations.

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I guess we must have. She never seemed all that flustered to me.

This topic is pretty cool! Shadowbringers + Endwalker spoilers
Yshtola in essence is the weakest of the Scions, sitting right next to Urianger. Both of these characters are scholars and you only really see them in the picture when there's something afoot that's not just an enemy to run at and fight.

There are many times in the story where Y'shtola is normally found in the sidelines, mutually contemplating about something or carrying out a task. I agree she's a Mary Sue in the sense where she feels more like an unkillable city NPC. But that's what Y'shtola and Urianger are. They're just scholars whose only effort in the story is the progression of the unknown, lack of better terms. They both favor the pen over the sword, so they avoid conflict firsthand. Y'shtola is never found alone unlike Urianger, she always has someone around in case she's in danger. And when she is alone, she gets kidnapped by Bowse-... Elidibus and used as bait for Mari-... the Warrior of Light, wow.

Aside from Arenvald and Raubahn losing apendages, Y'shtola is the most crippled out of the Scions. She literally cannot see, aside from aether

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Still waiting to see any consequences from that.

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Then you must not be paying attention to Y'shtola as a character. In the "Into the Wood" cutscene of Shadowbringers, each scion gets shot at by arrows but only Thancred has a semblance of countering. Y'shtola, Ryne, and Urianger all cower as to decrease their silhoutte size. Luckily no one is hit :). And Y'shtola is visibly fighting for her life in defense against the melee attacks.

The biggest consequence is that she could not see creatures of dynamis. At the end of Endwalker:Vanaspati - Skies Aflame cutscene #2, she states:
"Y'shtola: The beast was there...and now it is no more, yes?
Y'shtola: I saw nothing. Not the blasphemy that perished here, nor the other men-turned-beasts. And because of this, I now see all too well..."

What does this mean? If there was a blasphemy right behind her, she'd be dead. What happens throughout the ENTIRE story? Y'shtola is always surrounded by the scions. She's very vulnerable. She's not a Mary Sue, she's just smart and very protected.

Venat is a Mary Sue. Y'shtola is everyone's waifu. That's why Y'shtola gets every outfit on the cash shop and has a $1000 doll you can buy. And a nice figure you can buy right now. And probably won't die. Ever.

The only character that isn't mary sue is Gaius. Gaius is the best.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

In the same vein, Y'shtola is a one-note character. She only seeks the pursuit of knowledge and that's it. She never wavers or shows vulnerability no matter the circumstances.

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Seriously, stop using words you don't understand. At least make an attempt to learn the definitions first. There's a difference between over the top stache twirling "buhahaha fightfightBLOOD" and a character like Y'shtola, who you see react differently in various situations.

If you want to break down any character to their most dominant trait, be my guest. But please don't then do it using established vocabulary in a wrong way.

"One note" does not mean what you think it does.