The warrior 100% crit/DH needs addressing

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Literally what are you talking about? A CDH is basically double damage.

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The math is outlined here but the Expected Damage is much smaller. If I used the wrong calculations then you just up the percentages accordingly or buff Fell Cleave. Either way, it would be a fairly easy change as it's all just baseline numbers.

Will they address it this expansion though? They might wait until 7.0 to fix it.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

No it doesn't? DHCs are roughly 15-20% which is essentially No Mercy.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Literally what are you talking about? A CDH is basically double damage.

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What Argyle said. a CDH is essentially double dmg. Ur maths doesnt explain anything, u just linked the stats website. Lets assume a 1.6 crit multiplier: 1.6 x 1.25 (DH dmg) = 2.

Anyroad, i think u misunderstood me, i was talking about massive potency buffs to compensate for the LOSS of CDH on IR/infuriate. Looks like u mean adding 20% dmg on top of IR.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Will they address it this expansion though? They might wait until 7.0 to fix it.

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Hopefully b4/by next tier. I think the proper job balance patch is still coming?

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The math is outlined here but the Expected Damage is much smaller. If I used the wrong calculations then you just up the percentages accordingly or buff Fell Cleave. Either way, it would be a fairly easy change as it's all just baseline numbers.

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The expected damage tab is based on a combination of the % rate of activation along with the damage bonus, along with being based on how much damage those stats would benefit your entire rotation over time, not isolated to a single move. For a guaranteed crit, you nullify part of the equation that determines the expected damage value, leaving only the % damage booster part of the equation behind. As a result, the expected damage of guaranteed CRT moves is effectively 1.X, where X is the % damage boost, +/- the game's internal 5% RNG damage rollout.

As an example, with a 25% activation rate & a 60% damage boost if it procs, you take the damage boost and multiply by the chance of it proccing. (60 * 0.25(1/4 chance) = 15, or the exact 1.15 it mentions on Ahk morning's website for those two values.) But with a guaranteed crit you get an equation of 60 * 1(100%) = 60, or 1.6

You can also just easily test this in-game by whacking a target dummy with Fell Cleaves for a while and record the damage numbers without any CRT or DH, then go whack it with IR and see the damage difference. Currently, IR constitutes roughly an 90%+ damage increase. (Which is why you hear tons of parse memes on jobs like GNB or SHB PLD where not CRT-DHing their 1200 potency nuke was huge since it effectively adds another 1100 potency, or an entire combo's worth of potency for nothing more than 'you got lucky') As you said though, for WAR to be de-coupled from CRT-DH, it'd just be a matter of the devs playground testing a straight flat % damage modifier on IR or potency buffs till they reach similar simulated numbers as WAR is currently at, since its all just flat numbers.

Honestly, the faster fix to the problem with warrior is to just give players enough resources and space to deal with two different materia configurations for tanks...

Actually now that I think on it maybe that's the harder one to implement. :o

Or they should just make all tanks 100% Crit/DH during their burst windows so nobody cares anymore and so tanks will actually use Tenacity. That is my hot take for the day.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

[...]two different materia configurations for tanks...

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That wasn't the original post's issue. The issue is that WAR is being excluded from parse runs because SCH, DRG or BRD complain about "muh rDPS". Funny enough, I thought that as a non-issue until my FC mate joined a speedrun party for mommy EX. Party leader was a SCH, and I noticed they excluded WAR, my friend found out they didn't want to have WAR because it screws their Chain Stratagem dps... again, in a speedrun party.

It's like those weekly savage parties that excluded PLD or DNC before 6.05. There are actually people out there that have the mindset, it's impossible to clear with PLD or DNC's dps... it's infuriating (no pun intended). Ofc it's best to just ignore those ignorant fools, however in WAR case I can somewhat understand it (not the speedrun party thing, that's just ridiculous). There more than 1 action in the game that increase crit rate, actually quite a bunch if we include lost actions from bozja, and to lesser extend even dh rate increasing ones. And while WAR doesn't have access to as many as the DPS role, there are still enough to notice that WAR has a lesser gain from them (or those who casted the buff on the WAR) than any other job.
Even in normal PvE, I don't recall any job having more than 1 guaranteed crit and/or dh action, if any at all. Right now, DNC has 1 (Starfall Dance) every 120s, DRG (Life Surge) every ~45s, MCH (Reassemble) every ~55s, and MNK has Bootshine.
WAR has Berserk/Inner Release for 3 GCDs, Infuriate, and now Primal Rend, that's at least 5 GCDs/min, more than 20% of your GCDs done per minute! That's way over the top!

Oh no, you were excluded from a party that's sole purpose was to record performance using a third party tool.

I definitely think option B is the way to go, even if they need a bit of time to implement it. It'll fix all the issues and allow jobs to not be too similar (i.e. not all of them need to have % damage buffs). DNCs won't have to use a direct crit attack under Devilment, DRGs won't feel weird having to use Life Surge during Litany, MCHs will be more desirable as DNC partners, and so on.

I actually propose the same change in my DRG feedback post (https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-for-Endwalker). To be honest, this wouldn't be a drastic change on the jobs affected because it's something that's only going to happen for 15-20s every 2 minutes, and the damage buff should be similar to that of any other normal buffs like Embolden or Trick Attack. The only "issue" could be Devilment with a WAR, but I'm sure that if that got out of hand, they could reduce the effect Devilment has on WARs, yet the more likely scenario is simply that a WAR will never get more benefit than a DPS, even with this change.

As numbers can always be adjusted if needed, this is a necessary change. It's not about parsing, it's about the fact that there's specific jobs that feel too weird when they have (direct) crit chance buffs. Why should WAR be the only tank negatively affected by buffs? Why should DRGs or DNCs have automatic (direct) crit attacks that must be used during such buffs (and so be negatively affected too)? This change preserves the identity of the jobs while allowing them to benefit from these buffs. It's like having an extra Embolden, Trick Attack or Technical Finish for a very limited and specific number of attacks, so balance shouldn't pose a problem.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

Oh no, you were excluded from a party that's sole purpose was to record performance using a third party tool.

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U clearly didnt read the whole post. Exclusion is the surface problem! The root of the issue is that a WAR merely existing in a party with a BRD/DRG/SCH loses out on bonus dmg from raid buffs. Pls keep ur snarky comments to urself in the future.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

I definitely think option B is the way to go, even if they need a bit of time to implement it. It'll fix all the issues and allow jobs to not be too similar (i.e. not all of them need to have % damage buffs). DNCs won't have to use a direct crit attack under Devilment, DRGs won't feel weird having to use Life Surge during Litany, MCHs will be more desirable as DNC partners, and so on.

I actually propose the same change in my DRG feedback post (https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-for-Endwalker). To be honest, this wouldn't be a drastic change on the jobs affected because it's something that's only going to happen for 15-20s every 2 minutes, and the damage buff should be similar to that of any other normal buffs like Embolden or Trick Attack. The only "issue" could be Devilment with a WAR, but I'm sure that if that got out of hand, they could reduce the effect Devilment has on WARs, yet the more likely scenario is simply that a WAR will never get more benefit than a DPS, even with this change.

As numbers can always be adjusted if needed, this is a necessary change. It's not about parsing, it's about the fact that there's specific jobs that feel too weird when they have (direct) crit chance buffs. Why should WAR be the only tank negatively affected by buffs? Why should DRGs or DNCs have automatic (direct) crit attacks that must be used during such buffs (and so be negatively affected too)? This change preserves the identity of the jobs while allowing them to benefit from these buffs. It's like having an extra Embolden, Trick Attack or Technical Finish for a very limited and specific number of attacks, so balance shouldn't pose a problem.

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Spot on, well put. Until now i didnt even think/know about some other jobs having to use their big hitters under similar, unideal circumstances with these buffs. Guess BRD/DRG/SCH will now start excluding DRG, DNC, MCH too?

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

WAR has Berserk/Inner Release for 3 GCDs, Infuriate, and now Primal Rend, that's at least 5 GCDs/min, more than 20% of your GCDs done per minute! That's way over the top!

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I had to stop for a moment because that sounded way too high. But u r completely correct. Might even be pushing 25% because we use infuriate more than once a minute. Feels pretty crazy once u attach some numbers to it huh?

Shameless bump. As of current known job changes in 6.1, SAM is joining the DRG/SCH blacklist as well (and now DNC too due to being common dance partner). Nice to have some company, now we can complain together!

There may be a way to fix this by instead of considering the warriors buffs as crits, but unsure if there is a way to change it in the code. Say instead of guaranteed crits it guarantees (insert buff here), adding a subclass that would white list all the actions under (buff inserted previously) as none crits. If that makes any sense. That way you could still have the high end damage potency of the crit but it would just be a different name allowing for the damage counting during the raid buffs that do the same thing. I know this isn't really hurting Warriors damage but may give it a slight boost.

maybe just have it be a thing where it converts crit chance boosts from other players into a dhit or det boost.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That's a bad take though.

Having a job whose kit actively negates other job's buffs goes against their entire design philosophy this expansion. Hence why bringing attention to is makes sense.

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I mean, they're out of line but they're right. If a group can reject certain people for playing a job they already have, they can also filter people that play jobs that have no synergy with the rest of the group. However, I agree with you that the later shouldn't even be happening at all.

The sad part is your whole groups overall dps will still be higher with classes that auto crit (as long as potencies are the same as before they changed it) but since it affects a few individuals personal raid dps numbers they will be excluded. I just hope that if they go the route of big attacks auto crit/dh they revise crit and dh buffs to specially buff damage percent on auto crit/dh moves.

Or maybe they could just stop stuffing all the potency into 2 attacks. It doesn't require 200 iq to see that if you put 1200 potency on an attack that you only get every 60 seconds then whether or not the attack direct crits has a massive impact on your performance.


This was one of the several issues with warrior before the 4.2 rework. A significant amount of your damage was during your 2 minute Inner Release+Berserk, so crit and direct hit rng had way too much of an impact.
It is an issue with samurai right now and it is an issue with gunbreaker as well.
I still take crit rng over guaranteed crits any day but it could've been avoided from the start.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

maybe just have it be a thing where it converts crit chance boosts from other players into a dhit or det boost.

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Yes that is the idea. Det is the universal flat dmg increase for everyone, so any crit/DH% over cap could instead be pooled towards det/flat % dmg boost like arcane circle, divination etc.

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

it is a bit dumb since your guaranteed crit count as a crit given by their buff (you can check it on logs) so they literally steal dps from you for nothing and it help them to make a better parse.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

Oh dear, this is first i heard of this. How do u check this in logs exactly?

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Nope, Chain doesn't steal anything from auto-crits. Just checked a WAR log that had IR buff and Chain buff at the same time. After filtering Fell Cleave to only ones with IR buff, it does not list any rDPS stolen by Chain.

Out of curiosity, I checked the top 60 SCH parses in P1S, and only one has a WAR. So yeah, it's a bit of an issue. There's also only one with a PLD, but that's just because PLD doesn't focus on burst, which is something that probably never will (and shouldn't?) be fixed. The auto-crit problem is possible to fix though, I think.

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Originally Posted by Leonerdo

[...]PLD doesn't focus on burst, which is something that probably never will (and shouldn't?) be fixed.

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Then again, they are gonna change Trick and Mug because it increases synergy between jobs somehow?! I dread what might actually happen after seeing the recent live letter.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Or maybe they could just stop stuffing all the potency into 2 attacks. It doesn't require 200 iq to see that if you put 1200 potency on an attack that you only get every 60 seconds then whether or not the attack direct crits has a massive impact on your performance.


This was one of the several issues with warrior before the 4.2 rework. A significant amount of your damage was during your 2 minute Inner Release+Berserk, so crit and direct hit rng had way too much of an impact.
It is an issue with samurai right now and it is an issue with gunbreaker as well.
I still take crit rng over guaranteed crits any day but it could've been avoided from the start.

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On the other hand: since you can't have those jobs at the top of dps charts - as it was the case for 4.2 warrior - they are going to be the least favoured meta/speedkill jobs. Since Shadowbringers WAR is on the lower end of dps meta (for a reason).

I think people have to remember that your average crit hit chance is still around 20-25% - even with BL 30-35% - and not 50+% or other wishful thinking like e.g. every high potency hit magically becoming a guaranteed crit. The dps checks are based on the average damage output, which means 20-25% is what one should expect for their crit chance. Yet, e.g. most top GNB parses have 5/7 Double Downs crit. Ofc, in those cases your performance sky-rockets. RNG crits are an important RPG element, and I believe auto-crits are eliminating it entirely. Yes, we could hit our head on the table for failing the dps check on week 1 because the crit hit rate was abyssmal low; but that shouldn't stop from trying it again, and maybe even clearing it rather early thanks to god-like rng.

There are simple chances for WAR to be at least somewhat acceptable for crit buffing raid parties: just rely on Infuriate and maybe Primal Rend for guarateed crits, rest on flat damage increase buff. Also, it doesn't fit warrior; they are fierce and uncontrollable, they hit hard and brutal. Crits and direct hits are more like skill shots, precise and calculated - best example would be Reassemble!

I also don't get SqEx philosophy here: Since 4.2 FC, IC etc. potency has been rather high, and there is barely any damage fluctuation thx to the auto direct crits; and then in 6.0 they increase the combo damage by a rather large amount (roughly 20% after taking 6.0 damage scale into account) while lowering the potency of said auto-crits, increasing the fluctuation... and now they have to change SAM because their dps is "widely fluctuating"? SqEx's approach is irrational, contradictory and inconsistent! One day they go for the left way, but then they take a turn to the right... mind-boggling... (oh, and don't get me started on healers, the healer sub-forum is running the memes rn)

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Originally Posted by Arcturius

The sad part is your whole groups overall dps will still be higher with classes that auto crit (as long as potencies are the same as before they changed it) but since it affects a few individuals personal raid dps numbers they will be excluded.

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Wait, what? No, that's not how it works. That's the opposite of how it works. If someone's RDPS is negatively affected by a job then it means that the other job's ADPS is too, which means the overall party damage is lower.

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

Tonight my warrior was excluded from a barse group.

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Maybe uhhh don't do parse groups?

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Maybe uhhh don't do parse groups?

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Damage is damage. You're acting like parsing and parse groups are the only time damage matters and contributes nothing to the discussion. Having a group with Warrior and crit/dh buffing jobs like BRD DRG SCH will actively make meeting DPS checks harder and why should that be something any group wants? Sure they might be able to tolerate it, but good game designs shouldn't force groups to tolerate a contradictory game design.

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Originally Posted by Leonerdo

Nope, Chain doesn't steal anything from auto-crits. Just checked a WAR log that had IR buff and Chain buff at the same time. After filtering Fell Cleave to only ones with IR buff, it does not list any rDPS stolen by Chain.

Out of curiosity, I checked the top 60 SCH parses in P1S, and only one has a WAR. So yeah, it's a bit of an issue. There's also only one with a PLD, but that's just because PLD doesn't focus on burst, which is something that probably never will (and shouldn't?) be fixed. The auto-crit problem is possible to fix though, I think.

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U r correct. I forgot to update my comment, rDPS is not stolen on guaranteed crit/DH anymore. I was not super thorough just checked a few times here and there what contributes/doesn't.

Cant say im surprised about the SCH data. I imagine it is all DRK/GNB otherwise. They can pump out the most buffable potency w/in raidbuff windows. Pali can dump all their oGCDs there as well, plus two dots to boot. It is what it is some jobs will always be better for speedrun environments. No reason to actively create punishing anti-synergy limiting job selection. It just creates unnecessary headache, complication and sometimes even toxicity.

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Originally Posted by AziraSyuren

Wait, what? No, that's not how it works. That's the opposite of how it works. If someone's RDPS is negatively affected by a job then it means that the other job's ADPS is too, which means the overall party damage is lower.

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You missed the part where I said if the potencies are the same but okay tell me how the group would lose dps if they upped the chance of a crit opposed to a guaranteed that would hit the same. The only thing that changes is the buffer doesn't get any credit lowering their rdps and making the other who guaranteed it higher. But this was a guess based on before patch notes and is not the case due to nerfed potencies.

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Originally Posted by Arcturius

You missed the part where I said if the potencies are the same but okay tell me how the group would lose dps if they upped the chance of a crit opposed to a guaranteed that would hit the same. The only thing that changes is the buffer doesn't get any credit lowering their rdps and making the other who guaranteed it higher. But this was a guess based on before patch notes and is not the case due to nerfed potencies.

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I thought you meant the specific classes that do vs the ones that don't.