1 ultimate instead of 2 ?

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Originally Posted by icrot

Of course it will not be more difficult, it will just be more bloody boring.

It seemed like a good thread to debate, but you must be a troll, just repeating the same stuff ad nauseam.

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if you really think that a 30mn ultimate is not harder than a 15mn ultimate you’re definitely delusional

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Originally Posted by hfang

You wouldn't have made this thread if you didn't care. I personally don't use <The Legend> or the weapon either, but you don't see me telling people the fights need to be longer so less people can clear them thus making them "more prestigious"

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I just want more difficult ultimates

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Also OP is a triple legend fyi.

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...and that adds no credibility to what they're saying, just makes it even weirder for them to have such a take

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

I just want more difficult ultimates

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I agree with you, more difficult ultimates would be cool, and i'm sure Dragonsong Ultimate will be harder than anything we have in the game right now -- but making the fights longer does not achieve that

There's a reason why Nintendo bosses often has a rule of 3 instead of a rule of 6. At some point it's like, yeah ok I've proven I can do the mechanics, must I really keep doing the same thing over and over again?

Making a fight longer doesn't make the fight harder. It just makes it more mentally draining. Not saying all boss fights should be no longer than a Nintendo boss fight, obviously different games have different styles and appropriate lengths. But MMOs in particular generally should not last much more than 10 mins at most.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

if you really think that a 30mn ultimate is not harder than a 15mn ultimate you’re definitely delusional

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Whatever.

Cycling through the same mechanics 10 times instead of 5 doesn't mean it is more difficult. Just more room for error because you are mentally drained of repeating the same thing. That's NOT difficulty.

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Originally Posted by icrot

Whatever.

Cycling through the same mechanics 10 times instead of 5 doesn't mean it is more difficult. Just more room for error because you are mentally drained of repeating the same thing. That's NOT difficulty.

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Same mechanics ? where did i say to just repeat some mechanics in order to reach 30mn, wtf

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

Remove pvp and housing then :p

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And Diadem

"Endurance" is difficult, sure. You can perform something skillfully, or you can endure a test over a longer time, both are "difficult" but theyre not the same and they don't offer the same sort of reward or sense of accomplishment.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Also OP is a triple legend fyi.

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I mean I am too and I don't necessarily agree that Ultimate would be better at 30m than it is at 15-18m. If the goal is to exhaust the competition to maintain some "prestige" why not go for Gold and suggest 120m Ultimates? On the topic of endurance tests since PW and AV were mentioned, players used to go entire days on bosses. What's two hours?

Someone brought up deep dungeons in response and got dismissed but honestly going hard in deep dungeon is an endurance test on its own, and if an endurance test is what's being sought after then adapting deep dungeons into an even more challenging wave based mode might be the answer rather than "staple two ultimates together and call it a day."

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Originally Posted by hfang

...and that adds no credibility to what they're saying, just makes it even weirder for them to have such a take

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I just brought it up because I find conversations like this disingenuous when people aren't being completely open about what their stance is and how invested they are in the conversation.

I.E.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

Do you see an ultimate title/or ultimate weapon skins ?
https://fr.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...cter/11577662/

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Trying to appear disengaged with the subject but actually actively participating in the background.

Oh I see. I apologize for reading more into your statement than was there; it looked like an appeal to authority post on its face.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

What if instead of two ultimates which last 15mn each, SE make 1 ultimate which last 30mn

More difficult (equivalent of 2-3 usual ultimates)
More prestigious
Introducing "skill check" (imagine you have to do "tea", just after getting through Golden Bahamut)

As they have less work to do (30mn dragonsong ultimate < 15mn dragonsong ultimate + 15mn omega ultimate), they can also add better cutscenes/new design for bosses and arena/voice acting/etc

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As someone who has cleared all 3 ultimates—no.

Longer fights does not equate to more challenging. There’s a difference between a fight having challenging mechanics and the artificial difficulty that mental fatigue over the course of a 30 minute fight would cause a player. UCoB being ~18 at release was already pushing it in terms of duration. I think ~15 minutes is more than enough of a gauntlet challenge for this type of content.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

I assure you that the clear rate will significantly drop

less clear = more prestige

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And your below statement is why people crap on raiders all the time. Not all of us are preoccupied with this so-called prestige in a video game. I don’t raid or clear Ultimates for bragging rights. I do the Ultimates for the fun and the challenge—and maybe I also just like the shiny weapons because they look cool. But I feel zero need to lord it over people. Get over yourself, please.


Though, I’m convinced this is just another thread designed to stir up the forums. Since it seems OP isn’t being completely transparent about their Ultimate participation.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Though, I’m convinced this is just another thread designed to stir up the forums. Since it seems OP isn’t being completely transparent about their Ultimate participation.

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they have cleared all three apparently, but that comes off as even weirder to me than if they had never even stepped into any of these fights

Yeah... kinda think there should at the very least be 2 Ults within an expansion. Somewhere in x.1 and x.3, mostly to make getting Bis more worth it cause youll be gearing up for Ults. Replacing hard earned gear every other patch and barely getting use out of them just doesnt feel all that great anymore. And the last set of Bis doesnt really need an ult as the gear at least carries over into next expansion until lv x5 or x6ish.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

And your below statement is why people crap on raiders all the time

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People crap on others out of envy (or inferiority complex) most of the time if we are honest. Also, "flexing" is a very human thing to do even if some are more obnoxious( and obvious) compare to others. I don't think there is something wrong with that and at times arguments around "x devalue Y" are valid.

Anyway, supposedly average human attention span is 20m, considering that going above it is just a bad idea and I doubt FFXIV team will ever do it. Despite me not being happy with some design choices devs are really good at adapting their game to their player base reality.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

"Endurance" is difficult, sure. You can perform something skillfully, or you can endure a test over a longer time, both are "difficult" but theyre not the same and they don't offer the same sort of reward or sense of accomplishment.

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there is a limit in execution difficulty for FF14
unless you make a mechanics with hundreads of patterns ?

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Originally Posted by hfang

they have cleared all three apparently, but that comes off as even weirder to me than if they had never even stepped into any of these fights

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They have. Despite their posting of their profile and talk of no titles or weapons, you can find proof of the clears on another well-known third-party site.

However, their insistence that they haven’t cleared just lends credence to my assumption they’re just looking to stir the pot and not have a serious conversation. Why not be transparent otherwise?

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Originally Posted by Driavna

People crap on others out of envy (or inferiority complex) most of the time if we are honest. Also, "flexing" is a very human thing to do even if some are more obnoxious( and obvious) compare to others. I don't think there is something wrong with that and at times arguments around "x devalue Y" are valid.

Anyway, supposedly average human attention span is 20m, considering that going above it is just a bad idea and I doubt FFXIV team will ever do it. Despite me not being happy with some design choices devs are really good at adapting their game to their player base reality.

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Except the treatment a lot of raiders in this game comes from the mentality of prestige and wanting to lord their achievements over others—and it leads to a mountain of disrespect towards the group as a whole. Regardless of how down-to-earth a raider is being, they’re just lumped in with those who want to flex their virtual achievements and act like obnoxious individuals. There’s nothing wrong with being proud you accomplished something, but the arrogance is what turns a lot of people off and leads to the incredibly toxic behavior and environment. That’s the issue I have with statements about prestige. Aside from the fact that I think OP is not coming from a genuine standpoint here.

Human or not, it’s not an excuse to be a tool about it, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

As someone who has cleared all 3 ultimates—no.

Longer fights does not equate to more challenging. There’s a difference between a fight having challenging mechanics and the artificial difficulty that mental fatigue over the course of a 30 minute fight would cause a player. UCoB being ~18 at release was already pushing it in terms of duration. I think ~15 minutes is more than enough of a gauntlet challenge for this type of content.



And your below statement is why people crap on raiders all the time. Not all of us are preoccupied with this so-called prestige in a video game. I don’t raid or clear Ultimates for bragging rights. I do the Ultimates for the fun and the challenge—and maybe I also just like the shiny weapons because they look cool. But I feel zero need to lord it over people. Get over yourself, please.


Though, I’m convinced this is just another thread designed to stir up the forums. Since it seems OP isn’t being completely transparent about their Ultimate participation.

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your not doing it for the challenge if you think that a 30mn ultimates is just “boring difficulty”
one of the reason why ultimates are difficult is because they are no checkpoints between bosses, making a 24mn-27mn ultimate is the same thing, to a greater extent

If you say “24mn-27mn ultimate is boring” you can also say that a 15mn-18mn ultimate is “boring”

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Yeah... kinda think there should at the very least be 2 Ults within an expansion. Somewhere in x.1 and x.3, mostly to make getting Bis more worth it cause youll be gearing up for Ults. Replacing hard earned gear every other patch and barely getting use out of them just doesnt feel all that great anymore. And the last set of Bis doesnt really need an ult as the gear at least carries over into next expansion until lv x5 or x6ish.

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thats a good point

Having only one ultimate will make 2 out of 3 savage gear useless

Even if not many do ultimates, it still has a massive value for advertisement and representation of their game on streaming websites etc.. It gets more clicks and binds viewer even from other games to FFXIV for some time.
Maybe that is the reason they don't wanna release sub standard quality ultimate mode and opted for just 1 to ensure they can deliver a good product. If they hand ultimates out like candy, they wouldn't make big news and become less special.

Yeah, that would be too much. Quality over quantity you know. Part of the hardest part of progging ultimates is being able to consistently handle earlier mechanics to reach later ones, but if you had a 30 min fight, that means that later in prog, it would take an entire hour just to do 3 pulls which is a lot to ask. Roughly 15 minutes is already pretty long, so I don't see them going any longer.

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Yeah... kinda think there should at the very least be 2 Ults within an expansion. Somewhere in x.1 and x.3, mostly to make getting Bis more worth it cause youll be gearing up for Ults. Replacing hard earned gear every other patch and barely getting use out of them just doesnt feel all that great anymore. And the last set of Bis doesnt really need an ult as the gear at least carries over into next expansion until lv x5 or x6ish.

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That was the plan normally. Covid just threw a wrench into it for ShB, Dragonsong War was supposed to be 5.5. I hope they do 3 this expansion to "catch up", but somehow I doubt it.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

You are comparing 1-110 solo potd and ultimate fights ?

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Yes I am.

Once you master P1 and P2 (and P3 in UWU cases), it's as boring as potd 1-110 or HoH 1-70.
Because you have to work your way up there once again, way you did dozens of times and know on the tip of your fingers by now.

Twintania and Nael are boring to get through when you get consistent.
Garuda, Ifrit and Titan are boring to get through when you get consistent.
Pepsi Man and BJ+CC are boring to get through when you get consistent.

And you want to double the initial boring phases, making it 10-15 minutes.
I don't want a boring content to say "I did it me strong man", I want a content for fun. TEA is my favorite because it's fun and I really want to experience it as a SGE.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

That was the plan normally. Covid just threw a wrench into it for ShB, Dragonsong War was supposed to be 5.5. I hope they do 3 this expansion to "catch up", but somehow I doubt it.

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I believe they mentioned giving up on one Ult entirely, covid + couldnt get certain mechanics to work properly, or something of that sort. So Dragonsong War for sure with a very hard 'we'll see' for a second Ult.

If ultimate goes 30 mns or 15 mns or less, it isnt harder then a 5 mns fight or even 1 hr fight.

It need only enough mechanics.

If they drop only the max time inside to 30mns its ok, but a 30mns fight will lately smash your brain only

Imagine doing a fight for 30 minutes, where you wipe 25ish minutes in, and you have to start all over.

I highly doubt the majority would want that.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

your not doing it for the challenge if you think that a 30mn ultimates is just “boring difficulty”
one of the reason why ultimates are difficult is because they are no checkpoints between bosses, making a 24mn-27mn ultimate is the same thing, to a greater extent

If you say “24mn-27mn ultimate is boring” you can also say that a 15mn-18mn ultimate is “boring”

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You are completely missing what I’m saying. But I’d expect nothing less, if I’m being honest.

Making an Ultimate fight 30 minutes does not mean that it would be any harder than the current ones in terms of mechanical difficulty or DPS checks. All it means is that it would be more likely to mentally fatigue the person attempting it—which is artificial difficulty. Not actual difficulty.

You can have 15-18 minute fights that are challenging—as the current Ultimates suggest. There’s little reason to extend the time further than that. They’re already an endurance test with that duration and no checkpoint between bosses.

Tl;dr - longer fights =/= more difficult fights.

If anything, the precedent in this game suggests that shorter fights tend to have the higher difficulty. I’m thinking of P4S and how the door boss had a surprisingly tight damage check for Week 1 and 2 compared to phase 2. Exdeath in Deltascape was a sub-5 minute fight and his check was far tighter than Neo’s as well—and he was considered the harder of the two bosses.

I guess length really isn’t everything.

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Originally Posted by Lily_Skye

i'd rather have 0 ultimates

it's just a waste of resources just to please 1% of the playerbase

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just because you dont participate doesnt mean it doesnt have to exist

JP has huge ultimate participation numbers, and they have many more players than NA. Your reality is in a bubble.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

just because you dont participate doesnt mean it doesnt have to exist

JP has huge ultimate participation numbers, and they have many more players than NA. Your reality is in a bubble.

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While JP’s Savage and Ultimate participation is higher, NA is the largest of the three playerbases in terms of population per unofficial censes.

But I do otherwise agree with the rest of this statement. The person you’re responding to doesn’t seem to realize that Ultimate doesn’t take nearly as many resources as they think it does. Or that Ultimate is what garnered this game so much attention on streaming platforms. But clearly it’s a waste of development time! :eyeroll:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

While JP’s Savage and Ultimate participation is higher, NA is the largest of the three playerbases in terms of population per unofficial censes.

But I do otherwise agree with the rest of this statement. The person you’re responding to doesn’t seem to realize that Ultimate doesn’t take nearly as many resources as they think it does. Or that Ultimate is what garnered this game so much attention on streaming platforms. But clearly it’s a waste of development time! :eyeroll:

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Hmm,

I hadnt looked at a census in a while. I had thought JP had the numerically larger playerbase for some time now, guess im wrong. That being said, we do know that SE does cater a lot more to the opinions of the JP playerbase, and if they have a higher focus and participation on higher end content, i dont see dev time getting substantially cut for a very long time (going to look the other way on the delay of DSW on this one due to covid).

I say go for it, but on one condition...

It rewards nothing. No gear, no mounts, no titles, no achievements, nothing at all.

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Originally Posted by Lily_Skye

i'd rather have 0 ultimates

it's just a waste of resources just to please 1% of the playerbase

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"JuSt 1% oF thE pLayErBaSe"

You couldn't be more further incorrect, it's JP that loves ultimate more than NA/EU.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6kzXA-X...png&name=large

I don't do Ultimate but I would have liked it more if it was one unique boss instead of just three bosses that you kill one after another.

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Originally Posted by Stepjam

Dragonsong War was supposed to be 5.5. I hope they do 3 this expansion to "catch up", but somehow I doubt it.

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UCoB-> Ultima - 8 months between releases
Ultima -> Tea - 17 months
Tea -> Dragonsong War - 27 months atm, still 2-3 months, if it is really 6.1

I guess you can be happy if you get 1 ultimate per addon at this rate. I doubt they work already on omega ultimate before they havent finished this next one, so you can add minimum another year, which brings you into the last patchcycle before new addon, when they are trying to finish the addon.

Better to have 2 unique fights than 1 you have to spend 15+ minutes reprogging in to get to where you wiped at
long ass fights are just annoying, the current ultimate times are fine

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

Thats the point

Its supposed to get harder, become more prestigious

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Exhaustion is not difficulty.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

It will be way harder, and less clears, so it will be more prestigious to have achieve a 24mn-27mn lenght ultimate fight

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Time doesn't make the fight hard, though. That's what the mechanics are made for.
Making the fight last 30 minutes forces everyone to make sure they will not be interrupted by IRL stuff (such as suddenly needing to go to the bathroom, or your child needs you for something while you're 24 minutes into the fight, etc). All Ultimate needs is difficult/tricky mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Ruru_Nayu

Reduce crafting to a 1 button click then.

Oh wait... Macros lmao

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nice try getting likes on front page.

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Originally Posted by technole

You couldn't be more further incorrect, it's JP that loves ultimate more than NA/EU.

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Its going to be real interesting to watch where Materia slots into this next time the graph is worked out :)

a 30 minute fight sounds miserable on so many levels. making the fight significantly longer would make it more difficult to clear but it'd be a pretty artificial difficult imo. frustrating more than anything else.

i feel like it'd be harder to design a 30 minute fight that is both exciting and engaging for its entire duration, both to prog and just to reclear. the length of the current ultimate fights is a good balance imo. a 15-17 minute ultimate fight is already an endurance test. 30 minutes sounds absolutely miserable.