Does 14 Promote a Culture of Mediocrity?

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Originally Posted by linayar

The player base is not homogeneous. One player having criticism doesn't mean another player cannot disagree with the criticism.

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Maybe you should read that whole thing, as what I am calling deflecting is not a disagreement.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

The player base deflects criticism consistently and that is a fact. People try to turn criticism into some sort of attack on who ever makes it by saying they are rude, trolling, or in your previous example a frequent thread maker.

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Example:

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Yet another "you are all plebs" thread by Caurcas.

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It's funny how some people in here have decided to oppose the op with an aggression towards them and it feels personal. We understand the devs are catering to you big time and please don't worry - nobody's taking away from you, judging by the direction the devs have taken it's only gonna get worse. I believe many people misinterpret the main idea here which is class degradation. Many classes in this game feel painfully simple and familiar, it's all about gaining resource and spending resource, you just learn your rotation and perform it every time with no thought or deviation. I really don't understand how that feels interesting even if you're one of the most mediocre players in this game. Do you really want every class to be just a reskin of another? I do agree that many older systems were not very bright and they're gone for good, but the general trend here is "this is too hard, let's remove it" and that's the problem. The idea behind playing a certain class is always about pressing the right thing at the right time in an ideal situation and we can build upon it, like let's make a class more rewarding if, on top of anything else, it also does more damage with right planning and positionals, but of course there will always gonna be people saying its hard, impossible, doesn't make sense and all of that to hide the fact that they're just lazy and mediocre (and there's nothing wrong with that). I also believe, however, that there's a possibility to balance the job both for casual players and for hardcore ones. If not, I have another compromise - let's divide jobs by difficulty! For example, let whm be the easiest healer in the game and keep it easy for casual/new players and make ast the hardest one with which you can experiment and build new stuff on. There certainly needs to be a place for both parties, but right now the game is leaning towards one party specifically.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Maybe you should read that whole thing, as what I am calling deflecting is not a disagreement.



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Your example shows a post that can be safely ignored. Why are you focusing on such posts? The important posts are the ones that actually engage with the criticism.

Responding to them would just shift the discussion to talking about people on both sides of an argument rather than the criticism.

It just ends up in people insulting each other rather than discussing the game.

Do you disagree that they are someone who consistently posts veiled derogatory commentaries on the skill level and content preferences of the majority of the playerbase?

Do you think that someone who would do so consistently and regularly is engaging in the discussion in good faith or would just rather take another swipe at those who they look down upon?

You can discuss class design without bringing in the "mediocrity" of players into it. Lots of people constantly complain about Summoner in that vein, for instance.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I disagree, I don't think his advice is good at all. The player base deflects criticism consistently and that is a fact. People try to turn criticism into some sort of attack on who ever makes it by saying they are rude, trolling, or in your previous example a frequent thread maker. People don't criticize the game cause they want it to fail, they criticize the game because they enjoy the game but want more out of it.
If you look at the progression of this game we have lost much more than we gained with each expansion. So yes I want the devs to change the game but it has nothing to do with gatekeeping people or any sort of measuring stick. This formulaic BS is lacking.

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In Caurcas' case it is gatekeeping. Caurcas has more than once in many threads made it clear they see anyone who doesn't play to their exacting specifications as unworthy of playing this game and not only being bad at the game but being bad at life in general because they don't wish to get better in a video game.

So don't let their "I was just innocently asking X" type of attitude fool you.

Krotoan sums it up well a few comments back

"you are all plebs"

That's Caurcas's whole perspective in these threads.

I'm mediocre and I'm fine with it. This is a game, not a job.

I wonder why certain posters get bent out of shape at others for having an opinion that runs counters to their's. So much so that they must attack the person rather than engaging the argument. It's plain to see jobs and roles have been vastly simplified, yet performance does not increase. So the devs continue to take from one group to their detriment, and give them nothing in return. Meanwhile, the other group grows fat and gets when called out.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

It's plain to see jobs and roles have been vastly simplified, yet performance does not increase.

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Earlier in this thread, you said:

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Savage completion, and floor completion and engagement has gone up every expansion. Which, is a good thing if there is a silver lining.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Earlier in this thread, you said:

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Savage fight design is not job design, furthermore population increases have happend. Particularly from mmos that have a raid focus.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

I wonder why certain posters get bent out of shape at others for having an opinion that runs counters to their's. So much so that they must attack the person rather than engaging the argument. It's plain to see jobs and roles have been vastly simplified, yet performance does not increase. So the devs continue to take from one group to their detriment, and give them nothing in return. Meanwhile, the other group grows fat and gets when called out.

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Your opinion is that people are BELOW you for playing differently and not needing extreme challenge to enjoy things.

Jobs and roles have been simplified and the playerbase has grown. One could argue this means this is better for the continued survival of the game.

So devs continue to focus on content for the more profitable and consistent playerbase with a more manageable appetite (bleeding edge challenge content consumers require CONSTANT new content).

Does 14 promote a "culture" of mediocrity? No. It caters to the tastes and habits of a large player base. It makes the entertainment available to those who wish to engage in it.


And now, pending your edit I guess you're just calling people fat now. .. probably not your intent but it seems like a Freudian slip.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Savage fight design is not job design, furthermore population increases have happend. Particularly from mmos that have a raid focus.

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The end result (assuming you were correct) is that performance in the community has increased by that metric.

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Originally Posted by linayar

The end result (assuming you were correct) is that performance in the community has increased by that metric.

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Furthermore, savage fight design itself has changed and normalized from the point it was introduced. HW's savages were of higher difficulty, whereas SB onward have been easier.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Furthermore, savage fight design itself has changed and normalized from the point it was introduced. HW's savages were of higher difficulty, whereas SB onward have been easier.

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I'm not sure what your point is. I've always heard that Gordias nearly killed the raiding scene and Midas was only slightly better (although I've heard it was nerfed during progression).

Regardless of the actual truth, if more people are trying and clearing Savage in Stormblood and subsequent expansions, that is a healthy thing for the raiding scene.

about the only mediocrity that SE seems to have promoted lately is that of the trolls.

they used to be better...

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

I wonder why certain posters get bent out of shape at others for having an opinion that runs counters to their's. So much so that they must attack the person rather than engaging the argument.

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Threads like this one are always occasionally created and devolve into same arguments.

One group "is not going to try because it is not their job".

The other group wishes for others to be considerate of team members in team oriented game.

Some sit upon the fence and "take no side" but if know one thing about those individuals, they most certainly take sides.

This goes too and fro for several more pages until it vanishes into obscurity with all of the other threads.

One section of the community wonders why we do not all treat the team game as containing three - seven other living, breathing persons.

The other section says things such as;

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

This game has a lot of bad players and weird white-knighting no doubt, but I feel like a lot of people just defend "bad" players because they find it more satisfying and entertaining to get under the skin of people who whine about performance in casual content.

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See, I would never deliberately antagonize my fellow team members to "get under their skin", regardless of content difficulty but what can be said? You are arguing with many someones who do not care and see no problem. They will tell you only to group with players like yourself, and you perhaps will. They will then make threads about certain trials being too difficult and should be nerfed because welp, we took the advice. We stopped queuing and now there is no one left to carry your booty. Of course, developers will listen and nerf the trial and so the cycle shall continue.

What am attempting to say here is that you argue with one solid concrete wall. No one will convince them to play better as no one can convince a narcissist they might be narcissistic.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Savage completion, and floor completion and engagement has gone up every expansion. Which, is a good thing if there is a silver lining.

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You have no evidence of that, it's impossible to tell. Current raid tier is at 1.5% completion, if jobs are insanely easier as you state it should be much much higher. Easier jobs would directly corelate to clearing content easier.

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have shifted toward shielding the bad from valid criticism

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No one appointed you arbiter. If a person needs or wants help, they will approach you or others for advice.

If by that sentence it means you dont have a license to scream abuse at them, no, you dont. It is not YOUR PLACE to sit and lecture others. How do you know what you tell them isnt wrong? If the mods will forgive this small impertinence, I will borrow a phrase my mother used...and STILL DOES.

Who died and made you Pharaoh in Egypt.?

Every time I see a thread like this, I tend to just to go to some random area in the game, or head into an alliance raid, or something else very casual to appreciate all of this atrocious mediocrity that is the bane of the game.

It is here, away from the forums that a find a ton of players who are just having fun playing the game. They are not arguing over a 20 pot loss if you use Fountain Fall instead of Bloodshower. They couldn't care less if you cast Succor when the boss is still targetable. They play the jobs they enjoy, and avoid the ones they don't. It is rare that they ever find themselves in some fued with another player while online.

People lose sight. They invest so much raw emotion into an mmo, and have forgotten all about a time when they just played the game. A far more pure and innocent time when ignorance was bliss, and outgoing damage didn't mean jack-S. All that mattered was working together with others to get the clear.

It saddens me that anyone has to ask if the devs promote a culture of mediocrity. If you can't understand that the answer to this question is unequivocally, "No!" Then I fear you might be entering your twilight era with FFXIV, if not totally in it already. Such a shame that your sun is setting when they are talking about the game in the context of the next decade. But if the game is not going in a direction that you approve of, then it might be best to set your sights elsewhere.

Again, this is a game. You should enjoy your time playing it instead of saturating yourself in frustration and discontent. There is too much happening around you to get lost in aspects of the game you have very little power to change.

Do your best to have fun, while melting your enemies. Nothing wrong with optimizing rotations and battles, but there is little reason to lose sleep over them, or get into a heated debate with another poster.

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How good someone is at FFXIV is totally immaterial to life.

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Anyone who believes otherwise needs a reality check. This is a game. Thats all it is. Thats all it will ever be.

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Originally Posted by Aurikai

You have no evidence of that, it's impossible to tell. Current raid tier is at 1.5% completion, if jobs are insanely easier as you state it should be much much higher. Easier jobs would directly corelate to clearing content easier.

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Last tier of Eden had a ~18% clear rate on Aether, and around 30% on most JP DCs.

It's more a hot take than a troll post really and I find myself in agreement honestly.

While the player base has grown as a result of the streamlining of classes and mechanics, the fact is, there's a lot more bad players as well and the community actively defends them for whatever reason, or at the very least sits in silence as people screw up the same mechanic over and over again, not bothering to ask for advice or learn at all. We all complain on the forums about people running away with stack markers, tanks that don't mitigate, healers that don't DPS, etc all day long and the "Tales from Duty Finder" thread has been going strong since 2015 filled with it but y'all are going to come in here and say that the community is NOT promoting this mentality of defending those people that are active screw ups with their refusal to vote kick or anything really besides silence.

OP, I 100% agree with you.

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The player base deflects criticism consistently and that is a fact.

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I am perfectly happy to listen to any and all criticism and suggestions.

Then again, I am more likely to listen to someone who can offer such advice, when said person does so with respect and courtesy.

For me to want to listen to you, you need to convince me I want to hear what you have to say. Ever stop to think and ask yourself "If people arent willing to listen to me.....could I be the reason?"

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Jobs and roles have been simplified and the playerbase has grown. One could argue this means this is better for the continued survival of the game.

So devs continue to focus on content for the more profitable and consistent playerbase with a more manageable appetite (bleeding edge challenge content consumers require CONSTANT new content).

Does 14 promote a "culture" of mediocrity? No. It caters to the tastes and habits of a large player base. It makes the entertainment available to those who wish to engage in it. (snipped the name calling)

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FINAL FANTASY XIV Online (not complete player base this is based off steam only from around the last exodus)
Month Avg. Players Gain % Gain Peak Players
Last 30 Days 35,706.0 -908.8 -2.48% 65,565
January 2022 36,614.8 -17,114.4 -31.85% 65,565
December 2021 53,729.2 +27,967.7 +108.56% 95,102
November 2021 25,761.4 -970.0 -3.63% 42,433
October 2021 26,731.4 -4,783.1 -15.18% 42,623
September 2021 31,514.5 -8,787.1 -21.80% 52,541
August 2021 40,301.6 +2,635.4 +7.00% 65,329
July 2021 37,666.2 +13,948.3 +58.81% 67,019
June 2021 23,717.9 +2,406.8 +11.29% 40,067

Does not look like casual content is maintaining a player base to me. It looks like a lack of content is loosing play base as you can see even after the exodus the player base was roughly the same a month before the expansion with it quickly peaking and dropping 30% after the first month. Now you can blame the launch for this how ever this happens with every expansion The game constantly cycled between a large number of players returning for an expansion launch to that number dwindling back with small spikes happening on patches with raid content.
Shadow Bringers:
Month Avg. Players Gain % Gain Peak Players
February 2020 13,055.7 +2,395.6 +22.47% 25,612 (New Raid Content 5.2)
January 2020 10,660.1 +967.1 +9.98% 17,465
December 2019 9,693.0 -1,661.7 -14.63% 15,898
November 2019 11,354.7 +1,661.3 +17.14% 19,876
October 2019 9,693.4 -1,720.5 -15.07% 17,309 (5.1 casual content)
September 2019 11,413.9 -5,303.2 -31.72% 21,636
August 2019 16,717.1 -6,388.3 -27.65% 30,359
July 2019 23,105.4 +8,766.2 +61.13% 38,909
June 2019 14,339.2 +3,411.5 +31.22% 41,190

Storm Blood:
Month Avg. Players Gain % Gain Peak Players
February 2018 7,635.9 +1,672.8 +28.05% 12,637
January 2018 5,963.1 +514.2 +9.44% 10,322 (4.2 raid content)
December 2017 5,448.9 -442.6 -7.51% 9,105
November 2017 5,891.4 -1,177.9 -16.66% 10,329
October 2017 7,069.4 +326.3 +4.84% 12,435 (4.1 casual content)
September 2017 6,743.0 -1,701.5 -20.15% 12,412
August 2017 8,444.6 -3,692.4 -30.42% 14,218
July 2017 12,137.0 -309.4 -2.49% 22,824
June 2017 12,446.3 +5,898.2 +90.07% 25,599 (Launch)

Mediocre would be too high standard for the game. It promotes culture of people who don't even want to put any effort in to anything

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Originally Posted by Gemina

It saddens me that anyone has to ask if the devs promote a culture of mediocrity.

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Well, even if it did, that's not necessarily a bad thing because mediocrity is about being mediocre, not about being bad.

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this is based off steam only from around the last exodus)

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STEAM is a TINY fraction of the playerbase, as the vast majority are via the main FF 14 launcher system.

Funny..I seem to recall a WOW player using that very same argument. i couldnt stop laughing when said player used TWITCH as a metric.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Heres the thread.

Enjoy :-D

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ker/1146287/13

Need I also remind you that Square had to SUSPEND SALES of the game as they had major congestion issues?? I find it hilarious that you say the playerbase is dropping when they had to stop selling the game because it was being deluged with purchases??

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

I am perfectly happy to listen to any and all criticism and suggestions.

Then again, I am more likely to listen to someone who can offer such advice, when said person does so with respect and courtesy.

For me to want to listen to you, you need to convince me I want to hear what you have to say. Ever stop to think and ask yourself "If people arent willing to listen to me.....could I be the reason?"

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This 100%. Most of the people I run into trying to offer advice come at it from an angle of anger or annoyance. If you make it a friendly suggestion and it comes off as sincere, then I'll listen. "BLM, you aren't using "---" enough" doesn't come off as sincere.

This thread is not the vibe.

The game currently has more "active" player accounts than it has ever had before. this is growth. There are larger player pools than this game has ever had before. The game is also designed to encourage periods of boom and bust. Play when content you want to engage in comes out and leave when you're done.

What did you expect? just a line graph going up?

"The Last Outpost" - ST TNG series 1:

Picard: "They havent responded to our hails"

Troi: "Yes, but did we say anything they wanted to hear?"

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Last tier of Eden had a ~18% clear rate on Aether, and around 30% on most JP DCs.

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Where are you seeing this?

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

STEAM is a TINY fraction of the playerbase, as the vast majority are via the main FF 14 launcher system.

Funny..I seem to recall a WOW player using that very same argument. i couldnt stop laughing when said player used TWITCH as a metric.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Need I also remind you that Square had to SUSPEND SALES of the game as they had major congestion issues?? I find it hilarious that you say the playerbase is dropping when they had to stop selling the game because it was being deluged with purchases.

Seriously....LMAO.

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I pointed out this happens with every expansion. So this arguement is not very good. Specially seeing sales resumed and the playerbase went down two percent. It probably relatively safe to assume that about 80ish% of the sales for the expansions come from pre-ordering as you get a early launch incentive. Even though this is a small metric it does represent an actual metric how ever the numbers are likely much larger. The point of it is to show the actual influx based on patches and content / lack there of content.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I pointed out this happens with every expansion. So this arguement is not very good. Specially seeing sales resumed and the playerbase went down two percent. It probably relatively safe to assume that about 80ish% of the sales for the expansions come from pre-ordering as you get a early launch incentive. Even though this is a small metric it does represent an actual metric how ever the numbers are likely much larger.

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STEAM is not an accurate metric in any sense. Neither is Twitch.

Sorry but your data is incomplete and inconclusive.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I pointed out this happens with every expansion. So this arguement is not very good. Specially seeing sales resumed and the playerbase went down two percent. It probably relatively safe to assume that about 80ish% of the sales for the expansions come from pre-ordering as you get a early launch incentive. Even though this is a small metric it does represent an actual metric how ever the numbers are likely much larger. The point of it is to show the actual influx based on patches and content / lack there of content.

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if your position, and your posting of numbers, is intended to portray that the casual content is pushing people off the game.. would you mind doing the same thing for teh WoW population? most people from there consider WoW "much harder" and less casual friendly, and last I checked.. they arent exactly ringing the bell in terms of population retention via "harder content"

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

STEAM is not an accurate metric in any sense. Neither is Twitch.

Sorry but your data is incomplete and inconclusive.

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You are the only person that brought twitch in. And the data is accurate, but it only represents a portion, much like any common census would.

The actual data, SE does not provide. Only thing they provide is "active accounts". But the term active is vague as it may simply mean existing accounts it does not clarify subscribed accounts, or subscription rates. If you were to go based of the active account numbers, the servers never would have supported the player base at pre EW launch and post EW launch. You can see as well that the active account numbers and subscribed accounts are different as active accounts doubled during the recent exodus, but problems only showed at the launch of EW.

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You are the only person that brought twitch in. And the data is accurate, but it only represents a portion, much like any common census would.

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Its interesting that your argument mirrors the one I see above.

A census is an even worse analogy, as a census encompasses everyone, not a select group. A census HAS to be fully inclusive otherwise the data is useless.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Anyone who believes otherwise needs a reality check. This is a game. Thats all it is. Thats all it will ever be.

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yet you proceed to mald endlessly in literally every single thread that's even tangentially related to player performance or slightly harder content
please follow your own words and realize that it's a game and that you don't need to defend it like it's your own damn family whenever someone doesn't say they love everything about it
also, if you quote someone, please quote their post, it's the least you could do

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

This 100%. Most of the people I run into trying to offer advice come at it from an angle of anger or annoyance. If you make it a friendly suggestion and it comes off as sincere, then I'll listen. "BLM, you aren't using "---" enough" doesn't come off as sincere.

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you can sugarcoat advice with tons of uwu and emotes as if you're speaking to a damn baby and people will still insult and fight you over it, call you toxic and whatever, as it doesn't matter what angle the advice is coming from if the person that needs the advice doesn't want it because they're convinced they're doing amazing and people will defend their actual toxicity for some reason in most cases

Square Enix have been doing an amazing job with " Remove to improve" features since HW.

FFXIV succeeded because WOW sucked so hard after Cataclysm.

People don't put any single effort after clearing MSQ because there is actually nothing else( rewarding) to do. And yes farming tomes for that wow +10 item level gear isn't rewarding, impactful etc, you gonna glam that piece of gear immediately to mog shop items.

Same for Savage, nice after struggling weeks now finally I can get the same piece of gear but +10 item level and now I can dye it, so nice and rewarding.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I pointed out this happens with every expansion. So this arguement is not very good. Specially seeing sales resumed and the playerbase went down two percent. It probably relatively safe to assume that about 80ish% of the sales for the expansions come from pre-ordering as you get a early launch incentive. Even though this is a small metric it does represent an actual metric how ever the numbers are likely much larger. The point of it is to show the actual influx based on patches and content / lack there of content.

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https://mmo-population.com/r/ffxiv/stats

full disclosure, they use Reddit metrics to approximate active VS actual populations so this is just kind of a gauge of interest rather than an actual metric of player counts.

Considering that the numbers you're presenting are from one of the more hated ways to login to FFXIV I wouldn't take them anymore seriously than say a survey of a tiny sample population.. like say.. here on the forums.

It's demonstrable though that even with increased servers in the NA data center including the new Crystal, we have servers at capacity (no transfers or characters being allowed) during peak usage and have for quite a while. In addition the publisher is willing to go in on server expansion which you would NOT do if your numbers didn't imply it was absolutely necessary. Flagging subscription numbers would not let this be approved.