What are your crazy theories after Endwalker

With Reaper having been introduced, a trip to the Thirteenth would be particularly interesting. Plenty of room for some cool aesthetics. Maybe some inspiration from the likes of Devil May Cry, too!

Zenos is not dead or his reaper voidsent is not. They should transform into Zeromous. Him being not dead maybe finds/recruits others like him that can transcend death and we get our 4 elemental fiends just to cap off the FFIV theme of the expansion.

Also if dynamis can transform your despair into a blasphemy... what do other emotions change you into? Very much plot to explore. Maybe this is how we get the 4 fiends. Each one is a different emotional range.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

If anything, I should hope the extreme lack of story for WoL's Avatar could be related to a future Void expansion. A bit like how Heavensward drastically expanded on the lore behind Dragoon.

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It'll definitely be interesting to see how they address it. For now they avoided tying it to a 13th shard of the MC (probably wise to avoid tying that behind a job quest if your intention is to go there in the future), and in all honesty, it's easy enough to simply say some Voidsent are corrupt beyond the scope of any available means to rehabilitate them, and leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

It'll definitely be interesting to see how they address it. For now they avoided tying it to a 13th shard of the MC (probably wise to avoid tying that behind a job quest if your intention is to go there in the future), and in all honesty, it's easy enough to simply say some Voidsent are corrupt beyond the scope of any available means to rehabilitate them, and leave it at that.

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Well, Emet did say some of the civilizations on the shards would surprise us. I can hardly think of anything more surprising than a Voidsent civilization, despite the fact that the nature of their hierarchy inherently implies it.

As for the Avatar (or Zenos' Avatar, Yoshida's comments at least suggest they were thinking about that) being WoL's shard, I think it could be written around Reaper in the same way Heavensward wrote around the Eye and WoL being an Azure Dragoon. IE you get some extra dialog if you've already leveled the job, but the MSQ storyline develops a connection there regardless of whether or not you previously made one in the job quests.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Wouldn't those just be in the game from the FFXV crossover event? Sounds more like recycling NPC fancy attacks than intending to give them to the player.

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If you reach 6.0 there will be a "Noctis" boss fight for a story instance being Venat story instance boss fight. While her 3 stages were just paladin, white mage, and dancer, she uses the Armiger Unleashed animation and her Limit Break is literally Legacy of the Lucii but this was her still holding back her full power since she is just testing WoL.

Noctis in FFXV event is not a representation of what I am talking about as that was a greatly nerfed and readjusted animation to fit into FF14 for the fans.

I am talking about a real Noctis Job that focus on combat style of Armiger Unleashed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH2dC4EStU8


and back to what I said earlier, all they need to do now is create the attack skill animation and skills themselves if SE ever consider a Noctis Job. They have Armiger Unleashed animation and LB3 Legacy of the Lucii ready thanks to the effort they put into animating Venat releasing her Armiger and performing her LB attack during that story instance.

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Originally Posted by Teah_Kaye

I do wonder what makes one "eligible" for a Voidsent avatar. It's established in the RPR job quests that it's not just something anyone can have, but apparently the ability can be inherited because it was able to be passed down through generations of Priscilla's family. She says it requires a "killer instinct" and being specially attuned to the Void. What makes you specially attuned to the Void? Do you need to have a shard there?

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could be level of exposure to the Void to a point that a person become aligned with the void's influence. WoL had a lot of exposure to the void after all and WoL's travel into the 13th shard may have made his/her connection to the void far stronger than any normal person. That is atleast one possible logic as it is one of the most common plot logic with certain powers in manga/fantasy stories being the more exposed a person is to the energy of that power the more attuned they become to it to a point they may not be so easily affected by the negative influences of said power while become stronger with controlling that said power.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

If you reach 6.0 there will be a "Noctis" boss fight for a story instance being Venat story instance boss fight. While her 3 stages were just paladin, white mage, and dancer, she uses the Armiger Unleashed animation and her Limit Break is literally Legacy of the Lucii but this was her still holding back her full power since she is just testing WoL.

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That is what I am talking about. It seems more likely to me that the Noctis attacks were already converted into FFXIV format for that event (and then perhaps left unused if they changed plans) or are easily convertible enough to do it as a reference.

It makes more sense to me that they give Venat some kind of unique ability of her own – unique within FFXIV, that is – than to need a "she can do it, we should get it too" approach. If anything it's showing special things she can do because she's a full Ancient.

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Originally Posted by Teah_Kaye

I do wonder what makes one "eligible" for a Voidsent avatar. It's established in the RPR job quests that it's not just something anyone can have, but apparently the ability can be inherited because it was able to be passed down through generations of Priscilla's family. She says it requires a "killer instinct" and being specially attuned to the Void. What makes you specially attuned to the Void? Do you need to have a shard there?

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Maybe it could be some type of pact/covenant with a Voidsent which might allow of members of a family to get an avatar? I know Xande's had a covenant with CoD which extended those who share his blood.

I remember RDM questline mentioned the Calowise family consuming the blood of a Voidsent to forge a pact with her and which allowed members of be powerful mages.

For another theory that didn't come true in EW but I feel will still happen somehow - I was convinced that the quest chain involving finding that one Garlean boy's parents that established his mother worked as a maid for Nerva's branch of the royal family and that they were hiding out at Palatium Novum meant that one of the optional 80 dungeons would be a crawl through another ruined Garlean manor/state building to be an aesthetic version of Tower of Zot without the Giger tower additions - the Academia Anyder to Amaurot dungeon of ShB. I think predict one of the patch dungeons will be 'domestic' Garlean, if it's 61 or 6.2.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That is what I am talking about. It seems more likely to me that the Noctis attacks were already converted into FFXIV format for that event (and then perhaps left unused if they changed plans) or are easily convertible enough to do it as a reference.

It makes more sense to me that they give Venat some kind of unique ability of her own – unique within FFXIV, that is – than to need a "she can do it, we should get it too" approach. If anything it's showing special things she can do because she's a full Ancient.

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I think you are misunderstanding or just confused what I am talking about for the Noctis Job. I am not talking about having a 1 to 1 copy of venat skills that are just normal Job skills nor asking the Noctis job just use the FF15 event attack animation from Noctis and copy skills from existing jobs.

I am talking about the Noctis Job having its own unique skills animation for its skills. Not to make the attack animation copy of job skills but to give the Noctis Job unique animations for their attack while still maintaining the Weapon Master theme and Crystal/Phantom/Royal Arms Weapon theme of the Job. It will be best if they work on it from scratch and give it a new fresh animations unique to FF14 version but still use some existing animations already being the Armiger unleashed animation and maybe update the Legacy of the Lucii to have more weapons or relfect of Noctis version of Legacy of the Lucii.


I also did not want the Noctis job just because Venat has certain abilities as well. I have always had Noctis job on the list of jobs I want to see in FF14 before 6.0 events since I find it to be a potential interesting job if SE can put effort into the job through animation works and mechanic work.

The Noctis Job has actually existed in fantasy stories in the past before FF15 being mostly called Weapon Master Job, sword master job, or Flying Sword Job. Noctis fighting style, I am only guessing but from observing Noctis combat style, may have been greatly inspired by Wuxia series Weapon Master fighting styles especially during his Armiger unleashed attacks. The theme of the job is about the person mastering all weapon types or all sword types and using them in his/her own single combat style. It reach a point they gained the ability to control swords or weapons through the air so their weapons can fly for range attacking once they reach a higher level of spiritual power through their martial arts training to master these weapons.

The more magic fantasy theme style of this job mostly focus on a strong mage creating magical swords/weapons so he/she can sending them down on the enemies but the wuxia series weapon master is more iconic when you compare the two versions of the job.


It is seen more in Wuxia martial arts fantasy stories since it is a iconic fighting style for wuxia protagonists of this type of series. However, with increase wuxia theme games being released these days (though not many make it out of China and Korea), I think more people are aware of the Weapon Master and Flying sword jobs.

Here is two example of the Flying Sword job from a wuxia theme game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDSqY8ZiPkE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfrb38xufDw



sorry for all the I sentences and large amount to text but it not easy to explain things in detail sometime. I just wanted to clear things up about what I am talking about and I mostly just call it the Noctis Job because so many people default to him when thinking about the Weapon Master/Flying sword job due to how FF15 made people who do not read wuxia series more aware about this fighting style.

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Originally Posted by Teah_Kaye

I do wonder what makes one "eligible" for a Voidsent avatar. It's established in the RPR job quests that it's not just something anyone can have, but apparently the ability can be inherited because it was able to be passed down through generations of Priscilla's family. She says it requires a "killer instinct" and being specially attuned to the Void. What makes you specially attuned to the Void? Do you need to have a shard there?

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As Myahele notes, the RDM quests deal with certain bloodlines being touched by the Void and cultivated to be receptive to it's power. I'm not sure that's exactly what RPRs are dealing with, but it's interesting to note that Zenos was very interested in Lambard's Void Red Magic - Which he says he unlocked from "the wisdom of the ancients" - and after picking up his scythe Zenos has no trouble manifesting an Avatar despite not having the soul crystal for it. Additionally, the Reaper Enshroud ability and Zenos' fusing with his Voidsent bears more than a slight resemblance to Lambard's transformation, and when he wounds X'rhun to steal his energy the effect both visually and mechanically is practically identical to RPR's Soul Slice/Scythe attacks, with the same red orbs being drawn into him and everything.

https://i.imgur.com/tah8gyJ.png

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Originally Posted by Iscah

And can I take this moment to go on a side rant about calling him "Eric"? I know a lot of people are using it but it feels like a Hildibrand-style misnaming to me while "Erich" seems a more natural short form by syllable.

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My friends and I have been calling him "Enrique Antonio".

As for wild theories that are probably very wrong:

- The 12 are Ancients who also didn't agree with the whole Zodiark idea and decided to do their own thing.

- We are going to Corvos at some point (maybe relic weapon zone) and there will be Allagan shenanigans. G'raha Tia will rise to the ocasion and help out his dispossessed countrymen despite his crippling impostor syndrome. He will become Nuhn. There will be an uplifting speech.

- When you are confronting Elidibus in the Crystal Tower back in ShB, he mentions he has to keep on his duty because he promised something to someone, but he can't remember who. It's you, and he did that at the end of Pandemonium.

- There will be a timeskip. The twins will have their growth spurt. Alphinaud will look like his dad and Alisaie will become the hottest Elezen woman that ever walked Etheirys for some reason. She will still Corps a Corps into every single AoE.

- Lahabrea will NOT be hot. He will be kinda gross. Mythologically fitting, as he will very likely be Hephaestus. The playerbase will draw porn of him regardless.

- Next expansion will be centered around dragon-related troubles.

It has been foreshadowed some, but I still rather dislike the idea of G'raha Nunh, just because there would be a lot of gender-essentialist baggage there, considering he's been pretty consistently depicted asexually (Aenore tries to get in his pants and just ends up confused). (EDIT: To clarify, I mean having no canonical interest, rather than a canonical lack of interest.) I know ARR tends to ignore the "voluntary sexual slavery" aspect of the nunh role on account of age ratings, conflating it with a position of "leader" instead, but even as subtext it makes me uncomfortable. I don't really think that suddenly dropping him into a situation where he (implied) has to regularly have sex with a bunch of women would really do anything for his character, except make him a "real man" or some such nonsense. (His single-minded devotion to the WoL is his selling point, not a character flaw, but that's an entirely different discussion.)

I'd rather see him stick things out with the Students, and realize through his dealings with his tribe that he already had a "real" family: his father was Galuf all along, and his sister is Krile. So rather than G'raha Nunh, I think I'd rather see Raha Baldesion.

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Originally Posted by Teah_Kaye

Maybe he could choose to shirk tradition and become a different kind of nunh who would just serve in a leadership role. G'raha has spent most if not all of his (exceptionally long) life outside of the traditional Seeker social structure, IIRC, so it is a little difficult to imagine him settling down and becoming a "traditional" nunh with all that entails.

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We don't really have much of a timeline for Locus Aemonus (formerly Corvos) being annexed, but since G'raha is 24 in 1577 (the current year since ARR), he was born in 1553, already 30+ years after the Garlean conquest of Ilsabard in 1522. So, knowing 1562 (the Bozja incident) as the year Nael van Darnus really started messing with Allagan tech, he would have been at most 9 before being sent to Sharlayan (and out of Darnus territory), quite possibly younger if we get any more backstory in that area, with only very narrow odds of being older if a crater called Bozja somehow wasn't enough for the Corvosi G to recognize the threat. So, yes, most of his life outside the traditional tribe structure, and easily too young for the birds and the bees.

Don't get me wrong, if they wanted to make him a leader but also an advocate for men's right to choose, I'd be down with that. He's already implied he can't pass on the Eye, but even if he hadn't, we know what little royal blood he has wasn't enough to interface with Allagan tech, so there wouldn't be much of a point. Having him do a 180 on settling down in Corvos would still need a lot to happen, though, which is probably why we got so much groundwork in 6.0.

My wild and crazy theory is that the Thavnairan and Garlean embassies in Kugane will finally be used for something substantial.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

It has been foreshadowed some, but I still rather dislike the idea of G'raha Nunh (...) considering he's been pretty consistently depicted as asexual (Aenore tries to get in his pants and just ends up confused).

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I don't think confusing Aenor when she's trying to get in your pants is any indicator you aren't interested in sex as a general thing. lol G'raha is "depicted as asexual" about as much as Estinien, Hien, Urianger, Y'shtola, Yugiri, Lyse, Tataru, F'lahmin, and Cid are. That is to say: we generally haven't asked or heard them talk about it. Without the proper context, how physically attracted to someone he does or does not feel is logically not going to come up.


That said, I do agree on the general sentiment that he likely wouldn't be interested in becoming nuhn of the G tribe. The whole lion pride system seekers have going has been shown to not be a biological imperative so much as a cultural norm, now that we've seen mystel on the First and no indication of anything other than monogamous pairings. So his biology isn't gonna make him want to be a nuhn. And he's been out of seeker culture for actual centuries, so that pressure won't be there either.

Though the tribe might seek him for it if he goes back to Corvos at some point. Cus "Famous prodigal son returns an accomplished warrior and hero who saved the literal universe!", and all. Can easily see that leading to eager advances and getting really awkward really fast.

I've been led to believe that in many cases it is deliberately left vague as to who a particular character may be interested in so that players can come up with their own theories within the sphere of their personal head canon. It's a trend that I hope continues, since it appears to be the best compromise without ruffling too many feathers.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I've been led to believe that in many cases it is deliberately left vague as to who a particular character may be interested in so that players can come up with their own theories within the sphere of their personal head canon. It's a trend that I hope continues, since it appears to be the best compromise without ruffling too many feathers.

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Oh yeah, you can headcanon G'raha as being uninterested in sex if you like, just like you can headcanon him being wol-sexual, bi, straight, or what have you. I just don't think its accurate to say "x is how he's been consistently portrayed", when he really hasn't. Its been left open. There's a difference.

I'd like to see an exploration of the void, and perhaps a plot point using the lucavi stones and bargains with void entities. Furthermore, I'd like them to embrace the philosophy they espoused through Venat about struggle being the meaning of life. To meld a narrative of doom, tragedy and betrayal the likes of which 14 has not seen.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Oh yeah, you can headcanon G'raha as being uninterested in sex if you like, just like you can headcanon him being wol-sexual, bi, straight, or what have you. I just don't think its accurate to say "x is how he's been consistently portrayed", when he really hasn't. Its been left open. There's a difference.

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I concede it might have been better if I had phrased it as "having no canonical interest in sex" rather than canonically having a lack of interest. To be quite clear, though, I headcanon him as "uninterested in anyone but the WoL," though certain parties get their feathers ruffled at that suggestion, too, so I was maybe erring too far on the side of caution in describing his portrayal. (There was also the whole thing with Lyna where she was all "help grampa's hot now" and his attitude was basically "I changed your diapers." Comic gold.)

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I'd rather see him stick things out with the Students, and realize through his dealings with his tribe that he already had a "real" family: his father was Galuf all along, and his sister is Krile. So rather than G'raha Nunh, I think I'd rather see Raha Baldesion.

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I do like that idea. It seems a lot more "him" than becoming nunh.

(Though I wouldn't rule out him becoming leader-not-nunh of the tribe at some point, especially if he gets involved with the Allagan ruins, but not within the scope of this story.)

I do have to wonder how much character development they could work in for him in the hypothetical "Corvos as relic zone" though. If it's outside of MSQ they can't have him making any life-changing decisions that would alter his ongoing status in the main story. Unless they're planning to write him out of it...? But that's getting to several layers of hypothetical at once.


I do have to say though, having learned that he got (essentially) pragmatically disowned as part of an effort to cover up the tribe's links to Allag, that explains a longstanding oddity as to why he was ever allowed to go off and become a Sharlayan historian instead of sticking with the tribe and probably being nunh by default, if - from what we previously knew - they need to pass down the Allagan Eye and the previous generations' bearers were his father and grandfather.

I'm not sure that he can't pass it down, though he did say it was happening less reliably in recent generations. However, given all that has happened with the tower, he may feel that the tribe have fulfilled their duty by maintaining it to this point and it no longer needs to be passed along with the same urgency.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I know ARR tends to ignore the "voluntary sexual slavery" aspect of the nunh role on account of age ratings, conflating it with a position of "leader" instead, but even as subtext it makes me uncomfortable.

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If it's voluntary, is it slavery? But yeah, it's weird to us, but it's just a completely different cultural concept for them. I get the impression that they probably just regard it as more of a practical matter.

Maybe it will change with time, at least for the less isolated tribes, as more members interact with other cultures that have more of the "monogamous pair" view of relationships. (It certainly seems to be rubbing off on M'zhet Tia even if he does declare his intent to become nunh in the same breath as trying to flirt with J'olhmyn.)

Certainly Raha, having spent so much of his life away from Seeker culture, is unlikely to regard it in the same way as someone who has been in that culture all their life.

Of course, more traditional Seekers might find it just as weird, or even selfish, that someone would choose to take a dedicated partner instead of doing what's best for the survival of the tribe as a whole.

(Different clan, but there's a bit in the Postmoogle quest about Moon Keepers where - aside of everything else going on - Mauh remarks that it's unnatural for someone to take a single partner. Without delving further into it, you can instantly see they just have a different attitude to what we would think is normal and expect people to aspire to.)

Overall it's just an interesting alternate mindset that the writers have invented and then never explored, or only poked at nervously while apparently hoping people don't look at it too closely and realise what they're talking about.



On a separate note, while we're generally on the same wavelength regarding our favourite catboy, you seem to have some interesting takes on certain events...

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Originally Posted by Fenral

(Aenore tries to get in his pants and just ends up confused).

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Originally Posted by Fenral

(There was also the whole thing with Lyna where she was all "help grampa's hot now" and his attitude was basically "I changed your diapers." Comic gold.)

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I seem to have missed this "comic scene" with Lyna. I don't recall her having anything more than the understandable amount of confusion on discovering her grandfather looks the same age as herself. Or probably just having to get used to seeing his face at all, really, when he's been a shadowed mystery all her life.

And all that happened with Aenor, as far as I recall, was that she tried to flirt with him and came to the conclusion that despite his young appearance he talks like an old man.

My theory? During the Hydaelyn/Zodiark problems right before the Sundering, Azem was dealing with another threat, one that dealt with the lifestream of the planet itself, one that threatened to destroy Etheirys from the inside out. Before the Sundering occurred, Azem had figured out where the threat had originally come from, but before they could get to it, the Sundering occurred. 6.1 and the expansions following will deal with that threat slowly appearing again as we venture to new unexplored lands, along with some of the past of Azem coming to light.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I do have to wonder how much character development they could work in for him in the hypothetical "Corvos as relic zone" though. If it's outside of MSQ they can't have him making any life-changing decisions that would alter his ongoing status in the main story. Unless they're planning to write him out of it...? But that's getting to several layers of hypothetical at once.

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I'm definitely with you in worrying that he could get Midgardsormr'd, since this is kind of their window to do it without needing to explain why we never call G'raha anymore in the next expac. He is, however, still stupidly popular, and the law of conservation of detail would additionally suggest he can't really leave the core cast until we've been to Meracydia, at the earliest. We don't need another entire continent's worth of feigned ignorance at the complexities of Allagan ruins.

I think, at worst, he might lose his Allagan superpowers (since they still have a timer), and end up pulling a post-coil Alisaie: dropping off radar for a while so he can show up later with an expansion job, possibly with combat-ready Krile in tow.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I'm not sure that he can't pass it down, though he did say it was happening less reliably in recent generations. However, given all that has happened with the tower, he may feel that the tribe have fulfilled their duty by maintaining it to this point and it no longer needs to be passed along with the same urgency.

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The trait as G'raha inherited it was no longer enough to accomplish the purpose for which it was passed on, and logically hadn't been for many generations. This was a plot point way back in CT. He was convinced the "temporary" transfusion he got from Doga and Unei was the end of it, and that's what led to him sealing himself in the Tower all those years ago (a.k.a. earlier "this" year).

The messier question they've never brought up is: would Salina have approved? (Righting course to: back on topic!)

G'raha never knew what the Eye was for, was eventually told that it was for operating the Tower, got one stray voice clip from Salina corroborating that, and was only finally released from that purpose by Ramnbroes, who did it for the right reasons but is otherwise entirely unqualified to make that call on her behalf.

So now, suddenly, we've been reminded that there's a whole tribe out there that knows way more on the subject, and somehow G'raha was never able to check in with them in the course of his research? I assume Galuf forbid him from making contact while the Empire was a threat, but if G'raha meets them now, how might they feel about his choices? If it's left at "cool story, bro" then the meeting might as well not happen. So it probably won't be.

I think Salina had a more specific plan, but we don't yet know what it is. For whatever reason, I've always felt she'd work better as an antagonist. Maybe because G'raha used to look like like a palette-swap of Zidane (with Trance Kuja colors), and the G could really stand for "Genome."

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Originally Posted by Iscah

If it's voluntary, is it slavery? But yeah, it's weird to us, but it's just a completely different cultural concept for them. I get the impression that they probably just regard it as more of a practical matter.
[...]
Of course, more traditional Seekers might find it just as weird, or even selfish, that someone would choose to take a dedicated partner instead of doing what's best for the survival of the tribe as a whole.
[...]
Overall it's just an interesting alternate mindset that the writers have invented and then never explored, or only poked at nervously while apparently hoping people don't look at it too closely and realise what they're talking about.

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The idea that men are selfish for not siring children is actually still very prevalent in our modern society, though understandably not a pressure you'd ever be directly exposed to (as a woman, you're already supposed to be making lots of babies, and I'm sure you have plenty of feelings on that that I won't ask you to share). I'm not blaming or judging you or the writers for anything, It's just funny what perspective does. I'm sure I'm supposed to leave it at "woo, yeah, catgirl harem!" and this is definitely a personal problem on my part, but I can't just look at 6000 years of unbroken patrilineal inheritance and say "oh, yes, not a single heir to the Eye took issue with their lot in life." (Which is of course not to suggest that you'd have to be gay to not want to stud yourself out to dozens of women. Men of all orientations have their reasons to want or not want sex and/or children.) Wouldn't one of them have tried to end it?

That said, if we do end up meeting Salina (maybe she's in stasis on an Allagan starship), she could have some interesting Venat parallels if she comes to regret what she put Desch's bloodline through. That Salina and Desch are lovers in FF3 canon but quite explicitly not in FF14 canon itself has some interesting implications, since it suggests the possibility that she broke things off and (by virtue of her request) pressured him into being with other women (who were viable), rather than continue their inter-species romance. And assuming the "once per generation" thing is some kind of coded rule, whoever got it next basically had no rights to their own body. Even leaving the whole sex thing aside, there were probably ancestor-G'rahas who never had the freedom to adventure. How would Salina feel about that?


And finally, you weren't supposed to take these particular digs seriously but...

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I seem to have missed this "comic scene" with Lyna. I don't recall her having anything more than the understandable amount of confusion on discovering her grandfather looks the same age as herself. Or probably just having to get used to seeing his face at all, really, when he's been a shadowed mystery all her life.

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You're right that it's treated very seriously in-game, I just recall reading cringey statements around the 5.2-times to the effect of "oh, they're so in love," so it was funny (to me) for the Exarch to torpedo that ship with extreme prejudice.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

And all that happened with Aenor, as far as I recall, was that she tried to flirt with him and came to the conclusion that despite his young appearance he talks like an old man.

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I am way reading between the lines, but the very patch before she was contemplating trying to pull him into a four-way with her, Ocher, and Hoary. Since I very much doubt that ended up happening, I think the joke(?) was that he's so frigid he even cooled down Aenor.https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...s/confused.png It's not what I'd call "a good bit," but it did happen.


ONE MORE EDIT: Please don't worry too much about my weird, new-age-y bulls*kupo*t. It's just me being me. Spec-fic raises issues like this all the time and I'm just way too used to poking at them.

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Originally Posted by Teah_Kaye

This has gone places.

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I'm sorry. Welcome to Lore!

The big thing with diverse cultures is that they won't all comply with your personal opinion about how things should ideally be. They'll have their own values, and whether you agree with them or not - whether every person in that culture agrees with them or not - collectively they have endured as traditions over time and if a majority of people in the culture are following those traditions, the culture will continue.

And yes, a lot of those cultures will have some kind of strict rules and responsibilities that set the path of someone's life according to attributes they can't control, like their gender or being marked with a special eye colour or identified as the reincarnation of someone. By our modern values that prioritise individuality, that might seem "bad". But for the people who are in that culture, even if they maybe don't feel happy about their circumstances, neither they nor anyone around them considers it to be a choice that is available to them. It's just how life works for them, and even the ones who want to rebel might not be socially able to - or other values instilled in them might override that personal unwillingness.

I suppose my own preference is to create characters who do adhere to their unique culture and are influenced by its values, rather than those who would outright object to it.

For the more traditionally-minded of my Seeker OCs, I haven't really poked at his thoughts on the whole situation (partly because the game is so hesitant to go in-depth about their cultural details and views) but I suppose it's just matter of fact. Go out, adventure, get stronger, and at some stage in the future pick a fight with a nunh and see if he's more worthy of the position. It's what Seeker men do and how their culture keeps going, generation after generation.

Of course, not all men are obliged to participate in the system, and there will be some who are just tias their whole life with no interest in changing that. Again it doesn't help that we have no in-depth explanation of the cultural view on that, or whether they can take partners at all.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

G'raha never knew what the Eye was for, ... So now, suddenly, we've been reminded that there's a whole tribe out there that knows way more on the subject, and somehow G'raha was never able to check in with them in the course of his research?

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I don't feel like it's guaranteed that the rest of the tribe understands how it works either - but assuming they do, I think it's likely that the imperial occupation made it impossible for him to contact the tribe until now.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I think Salina had a more specific plan, but we don't yet know what it is.

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We still have the plot thread to pursue of her being name-dropped in Heaven-on-High.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

I'm sure I'm supposed to leave it at "woo, yeah, catgirl harem!" and this is definitely a personal problem on my part, but I can't just look at 6000 years of unbroken patrilineal inheritance and say "oh, yes, not a single heir to the Eye took issue with their lot in life." Wouldn't one of them have tried to end it?

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I'm not saying that there wouldn't be anyone in 6000 years who was unhappy about the situation. But at the same time, that's 6000 years of those people being brought up instilled with the importance of carrying on their tribe's sacred duty, being taught to regard it as more important than their personal feelings in the short term.

(Besides, probable or not, apparently it did manage to get passed down unbroken over all those generations or Raha wouldn't be here as he is today.)

And again, I think in a society like what we know of Seekers, it's possible that they have a much more pragmatic, less romantic view of... coupling, I think one of the U tribeswomen terms it.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

That said, if we do end up meeting Salina (maybe she's in stasis on an Allagan starship), she could have some interesting Venat parallels if she comes to regret what she put Desch's bloodline through. That Salina and Desch are lovers in FF3 canon but quite explicitly not in FF14 canon itself has some interesting implications, since it suggests the possibility that she broke things off and (by virtue of her request) pressured him into being with other women (who were viable), rather than continue their inter-species romance. And assuming the "once per generation" thing is some kind of coded rule, whoever got it next basically had no rights to their own body. Even leaving the whole sex thing aside, there were probably ancestor-G'rahas who never had the freedom to adventure. How would Salina feel about that?

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It feels like you're applying the worst possible reading of people's intentions here, portraying it as something that Salina "inflicted" upon Desch when there are all sorts of other possible scenarios.

It's just as conceivable that, firstly, Salina and Desch "could not" be lovers or at least not have children together - perhaps physically, perhaps socially, perhaps by one's culture or the other.

If Desch's tribe was already following what we know as Seeker culture, he may have considered himself bound to it. He may have offered that Salina entrust her blood to be kept safe by his tribe and their longstanding traditions.

Maybe they continued to be lovers, seeing that as separate from the physical business of passing down royal blood to the next generation.

And yes, for the future generations (perhaps very nearly for G'raha himself) it would be potentially a miserable thing to be saddled with this duty from birth, but still it happened. Maybe it was the only way, maybe the best way, maybe just what their culture insisted upon. If it wasn't Desch's descendents then maybe it would need to be someone else instead, perhaps with a less stable and reliable culture to keep the bloodline going all this time.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

And yes, for the future generations (perhaps very nearly for G'raha himself) it would be potentially a miserable thing to be saddled with this duty from birth, but still it happened. Maybe it was the only way, maybe the best way, maybe just what their culture insisted upon. If it wasn't Desch's descendents then maybe it would need to be someone else instead, perhaps with a less stable and reliable culture to keep the bloodline going all this time.

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No matter how hard I try, it always seems you confuse my readings of "Hey, there's maybe some messed up stuff here they could work with," with some kind of moral criticism of the writers or a desire to retroactively change the narrative or setting. That is absolutely not the case, and as such I'm not really sure how to respond to anything else you said. So instead I'll just ignore it and move on. Sorry. (Everyone else following the thread sighs with relief.)

Ishikawa took the tiniest hints at G'raha's insecurity dropped in side conversations in the CT storyline and ran with them to construct the incredibly complicated sacrifice gambit we saw in Shadowbringers, and then she took years of forum debate on Hydaelyn to create Venat in Endwalker. I don't see anything wrong with suggesting she could do the same again with other details we took at face value (it seems to be her thing, honestly), but this particular subject is a bit touchy for people, so I'll drop it.

Considering Emet said some of the unknown civilization we do not know about in the unknown 60% to 75% of the world may surprise us. I suspect we may get locations that may call back to certain FF games.

It will be interesting what kind of inspiration they may have if certain unknown civilizations are a call back to specific FF game especially the more technology advanced FF games.

A more fantasy based civilization I do hope to see is Grandshelt from FF Brave Exvius. It may give them the opportunity to add Grandshelt Knight Job into FF14 which is Rain's job.

Not crazy per say, but I just camme across two b team (c team?) scions in the Drowning Wench who say they are looking to book passage to Aerslaent in the northern empty, apparently ancestral home of the roegadyn. So, I think we’re going there at some point. Could tie into the treasure islands beyond the blind frost Hades mentioned.

regarding graha's romantic interest i always thought he was a WoLsexual. Ystola also discusses him being a nunh by virtue of land ownership as he had the crystarium after coming back from the first. So its not completely out there that he'd be nunh without a group of catgirls after him.

still disappointing there's no dialogue in the msq to tell the others we're married when getting hit on by alisae or graha if the player has undergone the eternal bonding.


my guesses

-Corvos is either relic zone or future expansion place
-myths of the realm is going to take us to some of the nooks and crannies we've either wondered about but never looked into OR new places in eorzea entirely
-We STILL wont discover what is under silvertear since hydaelyn never told us and middy's having a nap
-Azdaja having crossed the barrier between shards seems likely since Vrtra said that middy arrived post sundering, unless middy either misremembered or lied to vrtra, that means its only Azdaja and Ratatoskr to have gone between shards and the latter is dead as of the start of the dragonsong war.
The first and the void had to get their draconic things somewhere (Drahn means dragon. Drahn on the first are au ra, one of the gwibers was explicitly made to recreate a dragon, the void has a dragon as boss fight in the World of Darkness, not to mention the brinoyak type of dragon showing up everywhere)
-All the places emet said and other scions mentioned after the msq are going to be side content or msq later

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

that means its only Azdaja and Ratatoskr to have gone between shards and the latter is dead as of the start of the dragonsong war.

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Ratatoskr is confirmed to have gone between world shards???

I think my top theory is that when we'll end up visiting the 13th, the sundered Azem from that world will end up being an (perhaps iredeemable) antagonist, who already escaped the shard to go to other ones.
We also end up meeting them whole at some point in the past. And they're mute just like us. (Even if Ardbert wasn't)

I wouldn't be surprised to see a femHroth show up by 6.3/4/5 too.

I thought there might be a chance the WoL could end up merging with their soul shard from the 13th, but with EW pushing sundered > all so hard I have my doubts.

Something I pondered today…. Assume we eventually do go to the 13th shard with the intention of restoring it.

Should we? As far as we know there are voidsent that have intelligence/agency not unlike ourselves. Do we have the right to destroy their world in order to bring it back to a way we want? Wouldn’t that make us just as bad as the Ascians?

Assuming we can fix their problem of being aether-starved, there is no reason to think we couldn’t coexist peacefully.

This is an interesting problem I think the game could explore; essentially flipping roles where we are in the shoes of the Ascians.

Well, it's just speculation at this point, but here goes...

The Akadaemeia Anyder dungeon, along with some tidbits from Amaurot (the location), directly linked Lahabrea to Phantomology, which in turn was the study that gave way to the creation of Guardian Forces (and later primals). While Fandaniel played an important role in Zodiark's creation, I've no doubt that Lahabrea had an equally important role in that.
Post-Aitiascope/2nd Trial, the Loporrits reveal that the rituals used to summon primals were deliberately modified by the Ascians, such that the summoned primal would be compelled to spread their influence via tempering. While the way this played out depended on the primal, it's suggested that a primal would have to be on the same power scale as Zodiark to temper others just by existing.
Finally, when we encounter Hesperos, his devotion to Lahabrea is warped to the point of fanaticism. Just like the majority of the tempered we've run into. He even kills himself to cover up what's been happening in Pandaemonium, inadvertently implicating Lahabrea because of that loyalty.

With all of this combined, I believe that—by the end of Pandaemonium—we'll learn that Lahabrea is directly responsible for both tempering as a standardized concept and specifically Zodiark tempering the Convocation. But that's a pretty reasonable guess, I'd say. So here's the crazy part: By the end of Pandaemonium, it will be revealed that a chain of events have been set into motion that result in a divergent timeline—one in which appropriate checks are in place to ensure Zodiark can't/won't temper anyone. As a result, the conflict growing between Amaurot's people post-Final Days will not be beyond reconciliation and the Sundering will be averted, giving the Ancients their chance at a brighter future.

It's as much wishful thinking as a crazy theory, really.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

-snip-

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I think the exact same thing regarding Pandaemonium, tempering, Zodiark and Lahabrea.

I am with you in the wishful thinking camp that there may still be some kind of divergence of timelines. They seem hesitant to outright state that the timeline we've seen in-game is a loop, for some reason. Hydaelyn talking about "and now the rivers of time converge" in the trial, for instance, was odd. I mean, if it was truly a loop, then how are there plural rivers of time that have to converge? A loop is one timeline.

Also, hasn't Hydaelyn just always known the events in Elpis were a thing? And yet she seems to pause for a moment before recognizing that the events occurred when she says that line. That might just be me reading into her pauses/tone/body language too much, but still.

There's also just generally a lot of caveats said by several characters regarding how "time travel is uncertain" and Venat saying that the future isn't certain till it happens to us after the boys got their memories wiped. Like, yeah that's her being hopeful, I suppose, but it also feels like its the writers leaving open a door. At least, to me. But then we see everything play out exactly how it did anyway (minus creative liberties with the particulars of the sundering, cus I guess its supposed to be a dramatized summary not an actual flashback?). Rendering the hope she had specifically of averting that future entirely moot. And Hades' insistence he still doesn't believe it'll happen before he hedges and tells us not to squander his legacy. Like... okay, their hopes are just that and not all hopes come to fruition, irl. This is true. But the fact this is a story, not real life, makes me feel like the writers wouldn't put that uncertainty in there if they weren't going to have a payoff.

So... yeah. lol I consider it a crazy theory that there will still end up being some timeline where the ancients survive, but I'd still like it to occur.

I can’t remember specifics, but I was under the impression that Zodiark and Hydaelyn did not temper people. I can’t remember where that was explained.

That said, everything else sounds very plausible and I believe Lahabrea is absolutely behind the tempering mechanism. Maybe he made it in response to the disagreement he faced when he proposed the 3rd round of sacrifices. A way to force conformity.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I can’t remember specifics, but I was under the impression that Zodiark and Hydaelyn did not temper people. I can’t remember where that was explained.

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Livingway says Zodiark could be summoned without us feeling more than a "tug" on our aether. She never says that we'd be tempered by something of his scale. And I'd think she would have, if that were so; given the context of that conversation.

And yet, Emet outright says in Shadowbringers that Zodiark tempered "us". By "us", I assume he means the people who summoned him ie the convocation members and their underlings who were present (if any). But that is technically an assumption, so the writers could come back and claim he tempered the whole city when he was summoned if they want since they've never specified.

(Side note, if Fandaniel is any indication, we at least now have confirmation that tempering definitely does not stick with a soul once they get put thru the reincarnation rinse cycle. Which is cool.)


Hydaelyn definitely doesn't seem to temper people, which we now know is apparently perfectly within bounds of how primal summoning can work. Before EW, that was up for debate.

I’m currently playing NewGame+ for just the ARR stuff (it’s been a while).

Crazy Theory: We actually DO go back in time and give Cid his goggles.

I agree it seems very plausible that Lahabrea is responsible for introducing tempering, but I don't think we'll be handling a split timeline again. The memory crystal has to somehow independently make its way from Pandæmonium to our present, and that can't happen if we only fix things in an alternate timeline.

(Well, technically we could fix things in timeline A while the people of timeline B (connected to ours) are doomed and send us the crystal distress signal, but that just makes things even more complicated.)

Hydaelyn's talk about time "converging" seems more like she's talking about the two elements of the time loop starting in Elpis have met up. Our paths "converged" back then, we passed the information to Venat, and we went our separate ways – her through the slow path of millennia and us travelling back to where we began. Those two threads join up again when we meet her in full knowledge of what happened back then.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

As a result, the conflict growing between Amaurot's people post-Final Days will not be beyond reconciliation and the Sundering will be averted, giving the Ancients their chance at a brighter future.

It's as much wishful thinking as a crazy theory, really.

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I love this and want it so badly to happen! I love them so much and to help them would be to fall in line with Louisoix's teachings.

But then on some level the ancients have survived, even though they are not as powerful as their complete forms.

Their being artists/creators is a passion all the civilizations still share (Allaghans, Garlemald specifically, as we face some reckoning about the fate of Garlemald and Hades' legacy). Their drive to accurately name and categorize everything still happens (Thancred realizing in EW what a powerful act naming Ryne was, then us going back to meet the taxonomists in Elpis was a really cool parallel). We still have grapes that look somewhat grapelike in La Noscea. Elpis sure looks a lot like Labyrinthos. People are still napping in the nap room. Creations are still escaping. They lived, just like the people now.

One of the ways I see them as being different is that, though they are curious, they won't leave the lab. They see it as a job for familiars. Azem seemed to be the only role related to studying the geography (human, ecological, geological...all summed up nicely in the story of the volcano) of the world. They need to do some field work and reconnaissance. It is one thing Hades and others admired so much about their version of Azem.

That is just something innately human that they lacked. If they survived, it makes me wonder if they would be inspired by peoples of the future to go outside their laboratories more often. And maybe more than just surviving the final days they would develop in that way. It seems like the societies in current times are a lot more Azem-like in their need for exploration, and their society could be improved in that way!

I really love the ancients. So much. I just did the Elpis guide quests yesterday where you hang out with them and share observations about things like mourning the dead and so this is fresh in my mind.