*Spoilers* The Past and After the Endwalker MSQ End

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Just like G'raha did when he and the people of the Eighth Era sent himself back in time to prevent the Eighth Umbral Calamity, then.

EDIT: I'm just going to cut this short here, and link the short story whose existence I am so very fond of reminding everyone of: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes.../sidestory_08/

Yes, it's canon. And if you're going to try and apply cynical logic to the idea of traveling back in time to prevent a calamity from wiping out countless lives, then you have to be fair and apply it to Shadowbringers as well, since that concept is the very backbone of Shadowbringers' plot.

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The difference is that the people of G'raha's timeline worked together to send him back, in the hopes that he could prevent the future of the Eighth Umbral Calamity from ever happening. It was an act of intentional sacrifice and selflessness on thier parts.

With Elpis, nobody on the source collaborated with you to go to the past. You were asked to go to the First and ask Elidibus if the knew anything that could help with the ongoing crisis they were currently facing. You have direct obligations and ties to the people in your own time, you were not sent back to save the ancients, you dediced to go back to find information that could save the present day Ethyris.

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Originally Posted by AlysanneVrannai

Yes, I know. G'rahas world was literally BEYOND saving (until Midgardsormr intervened, which G'raha had no clue would happen), and horrible to live in, so they rather give up on that reality completely to create chance for a better one.

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And then, upon actually achieving their goal, they realized nothing had changed for them. And when posed the question "What will you do now?", they resolved to take the future of their world back into their own hands before Midgardsormr had offered to aid them in any way.

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We KNOW that changing events in Elips will NOT destroy our reality, and we KNOW that this will instead create an entirely new reality instead of "saving" the Elpis we want to save. Thats my entire point, you are essentially doing nothing. You are creating a world just to "save" it.

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This is nothing more than a game of semantics, if you ask me. Whether they're the people of our reality or the people of some parallel universe, they're still people whose lives we've touched. And, to quote a line the writers are fond of: "To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom; it is indolence."

You seem to think that "where do you stop?" is a good argument against doing it. But here's my rebuttal: We went back in time to clean up Pandaemonium for no reason other than a mysterious stone asking for help. There was no proof that we'd done so, and therefore needed to do so. For all we know, our actions in Elpis in regards to Pandaemonium have only succeeded in creating a timeline in which we cleaned up Pandaemonium, leaving our own past of "somebody else did it" untouched. And quite frankly, I don't think our character cares if we made a new timeline in the process, because we'll be doing it two more times at the very least.

The can of worms is open.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

And then, upon actually achieving their goal, they realized nothing had changed for them. And when posed the question "What will you do now?", they resolved to take the future of their world back into their own hands before Midgardsormr had offered to aid them in any way.



This is nothing more than a game of semantics, if you ask me. Whether they're the people of our reality or the people of some parallel universe, they're still people whose lives we've touched. And, to quote a line the writers are fond of: "To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom; it is indolence."

You seem to think that "where do you stop?" is a good argument against doing it. But here's my rebuttal: We went back in time to clean up Pandaemonium for no reason other than a mysterious stone asking for help. There was no proof that we'd done so, and therefore needed to do so. For all we know, our actions in Elpis in regards to Pandaemonium have only succeeded in creating a timeline in which we cleaned up Pandaemonium, leaving our own past of "somebody else did it" untouched. And quite frankly, I don't think our character cares if we made a new timeline in the process, because we'll be doing it two more times at the very least.

The can of worms is open.

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We are doing the Pandæmonium raid for not just "save people" reasons but also for research into the origins of the crystal itself. There is not some altruistic intention there.

My point about the creation of universes is not semantics. There isnt anyone to save. They dont exist. The act of trying to save them creates the people you need to save. Its completely different from ignoring the plight of someone actually suffering that you could save. There are better things to do than to just infinitely expand the amount of people suffering. The Warrior of Light can save people right now in our universe instead of creating a new one. Trying to bend the definition of Louisiouxs saying wont change the facts.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

We’ll then we need only two things.

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The answer to both necessities exists within the Crystal Tower on the First.

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Unless the Ancients try to make them, which may be a hard sell given you’re basically creating a group of empathy beings to send off to hell. They’ll not have the bonds you have with the Scions, nor memories of past trials to give them strength.

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As it happens Pandemonium provided a way to BS up some FFXI Trusts in the span of five minutes.

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Originally Posted by AlysanneVrannai

We are doing the Pandæmonium raid for not just "save people" reasons but also for research into the origins of the crystal itself. There is not some altruistic intention there.

My point about the creation of universes is not semantics. There isnt anyone to save. They dont exist. The act of trying to save them creates the people you need to save. Its completely different from ignoring the plight of someone actually suffering that you could save. There are better things to do than to just infinitely expand the amount of people suffering. The Warrior of Light can save people right now in our universe instead of creating a new one. Trying to bend the definition of Louisiouxs saying wont change the facts.

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Do you not understand that your first point undermines your second? From what you're saying WoL potentially created an entirely new doomed timeline for nothing more than the sake of curiosity. And this is somehow a more valid motivation than to save billions of lives?

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Do you not understand that your first point undermines your second? From what you're saying WoL potentially created an entirely new doomed timeline for nothing more than the sake of curiosity. And this is somehow a more valid motivation than to save billions of lives?

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Oh, I am by no means defending the WoLs usage of time travel during the Pandæmonium situation. At least for me I would never time travel unless it was the only way to solve an issue in "my" timeline.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

Just like G'raha did when he and the people of the Eighth Era sent himself back in time to prevent the Eighth Umbral Calamity, then.

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In short: it's true that is one big can of worms. It maybe shouldn't have happened, but it did.

But that doesn't mean we should be opening more cans because we opened one.

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Originally Posted by AlysanneVrannai

My point about the creation of universes is not semantics. There isnt anyone to save. They dont exist. The act of trying to save them creates the people you need to save.

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This is my line of thinking too. The end of the Ancients and the sundering of the world is part of our past. We cannot undo that suffering.

It also just opens a much bigger messier can of worms in terms of understanding the game's timeline. We're suddenly in a multiverse instead of a simple timeline with one split that happened in exceptional circumstances.

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Originally Posted by AlysanneVrannai

My point about the creation of universes is not semantics. There isnt anyone to save. They dont exist. The act of trying to save them creates the people you need to save. Its completely different from ignoring the plight of someone actually suffering that you could save. There are better things to do than to just infinitely expand the amount of people suffering. The Warrior of Light can save people right now in our universe instead of creating a new one. Trying to bend the definition of Louisiouxs saying wont change the facts.

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The whole point of G'raha's "if history must be unwritten, let it be unwritten" thing was that, even if it won't change the fate that the people in your world experienced, creating a future where a specific culture of group of people survived and got to have a brighter future is worthwhile for its own sake.

Doing this would hardly be in defiance of the themes or logic of the game so far.

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Originally Posted by AlysanneVrannai

Oh, I am by no means defending the WoLs usage of time travel during the Pandæmonium situation. At least for me I would never time travel unless it was the only way to solve an issue in "my" timeline.

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I am regarding Pandæmonium as a chance to learn more about events in our own timeline. The crystal has surfaced in ours, after all.

Though also, theoretically, whatever we do or don't do there, it is almost certainly going to integrate into our timeline in the end exactly because we have no idea what happens there. If we save everyone, that's nice (in the short term) and we've probably set up Elidibus's memory of seeing us in Elpis. If it all goes to disaster, it's still a disaster long past that we have now learned about.

I don't think we can break our timeline here because we cannot contradict any events we already know to have happened – unlike the Final Days at large where we are very aware of the outcome.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

But that doesn't mean we should be opening more cans because we opened one.

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WoL has eaten more worms for lesser reasons. Sometimes literally.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I am regarding Pandæmonium as a chance to learn more about events in our own timeline. The crystal has surfaced in ours, after all.

Though also, theoretically, whatever we do or don't do there, it is almost certainly going to integrate into our timeline in the end exactly because we have no idea what happens there. If we save everyone, that's nice (in the short term) and we've probably set up Elidibus's memory of seeing us in Elpis. If it all goes to disaster, it's still a disaster long past that we have now learned about.

I don't think we can break our timeline here because we cannot contradict any events we already know to have happened – unlike the Final Days at large where we are very aware of the outcome.

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When you meet Elidibus in the Crystal Tower, his line is weird - he doesn't just say that he saw you in Elpis, he says, "I saw you... No, I did not. But I did." Like he's remembering two different versions of history at the same time.

So it's not impossible that Pandaemonium is already building to some kind of split timeline scenario in the way that the WoL's first visit - from which Venat and Emet seem to remember you uncomplicatedly - was not.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

When you meet Elidibus in the Crystal Tower, his line is weird - he doesn't just say that he saw you in Elpis, he says, "I saw you... No, I did not. But I did." Like he's remembering two different versions of history at the same time.

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I still need to rewatch that scene, but is it maybe just the point where he gets the idea to send you back in time in the first place? He remembered he saw you there, thinks it has to be impossible, then thinks that it would make sense if he sent you back there to fulfil that loop?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I still need to rewatch that scene, but is it maybe just the point where he gets the idea to send you back in time in the first place? He remembered he saw you there, thinks it has to be impossible, then thinks that it would make sense if he sent you back there to fulfil that loop?

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I would've thought he'd have said "no, I couldn't have" or something if that were the case. "I did not" feels like a counter-assertion instead of just disbelief. Especially since the way he delivers the line sort of makes it sound like he's talking about two separate versions of himself: "I did not. But I did. I did."

But who knows.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

When you meet Elidibus in the Crystal Tower, his line is weird - he doesn't just say that he saw you in Elpis, he says, "I saw you... No, I did not. But I did." Like he's remembering two different versions of history at the same time.

So it's not impossible that Pandaemonium is already building to some kind of split timeline scenario in the way that the WoL's first visit - from which Venat and Emet seem to remember you uncomplicatedly - was not.

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Could this not be a reference to how Elidibus is not really "Elidibus" due to his memories being intensely damaged? So he has memories of Elidibus seeing the WoL in Elpis, but it is not really "his" memories.

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Originally Posted by AlysanneVrannai

Could this not be a reference to how Elidibus is not really "Elidibus" due to his memories being intensely damaged? So he has memories of Elidibus seeing the WoL in Elpis, but it is not really "his" memories.

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That seems like a stretch, since he doesn't seem to have any problem considering his other memories as belonging to him.

But again, who knows. All I'm saying is that it's a possibility.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I am regarding Pandæmonium as a chance to learn more about events in our own timeline. The crystal has surfaced in ours, after all.

Though also, theoretically, whatever we do or don't do there, it is almost certainly going to integrate into our timeline in the end exactly because we have no idea what happens there. If we save everyone, that's nice (in the short term) and we've probably set up Elidibus's memory of seeing us in Elpis. If it all goes to disaster, it's still a disaster long past that we have now learned about.

I don't think we can break our timeline here because we cannot contradict any events we already know to have happened – unlike the Final Days at large where we are very aware of the outcome.

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As Elidibus stated, we can't change anything for our timeline - for better or ill. The Final Days are averted on our end, nothing about that should change no matter what we do in the past. Venat also restates this, but notes that we can still change theirs.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

When you meet Elidibus in the Crystal Tower, his line is weird - he doesn't just say that he saw you in Elpis, he says, "I saw you... No, I did not. But I did." Like he's remembering two different versions of history at the same time.

So it's not impossible that Pandaemonium is already building to some kind of split timeline scenario in the way that the WoL's first visit - from which Venat and Emet seem to remember you uncomplicatedly - was not.

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We might not be at the point of time convergence yet - the Final Days are still going to happen if we leave things as they are when we last left Venat. There's still the upcoming patches for Endwalker for that to happen- opportunities to wrap up as much of the past so we can focus on the future. At the moment, the negative implications of time travel are...well, there doesn't seem to be any as of yet (other than our characters getting older while time traveling and not aging as they should - which doesn't really matter to us players). This leaves things open to a Warlord of Draenor or Final Fantasy XI: Wings of the Goddess time travel expansion somewhere down the line - or perhaps this will be the time travel expansion and everything else will look towards the future.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

When you meet Elidibus in the Crystal Tower, his line is weird - he doesn't just say that he saw you in Elpis, he says, "I saw you... No, I did not. But I did." Like he's remembering two different versions of history at the same time.

So it's not impossible that Pandaemonium is already building to some kind of split timeline scenario in the way that the WoL's first visit - from which Venat and Emet seem to remember you uncomplicatedly - was not.

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I suspect what that was is that Elidibus, as stated in that cutscene, has memories from the soul crystals we gave him. Those memories include Emet's, Hermes', and also potentially his own (if he's Themis like he seems) and possibly even Lahabrea's (depending on who Lahabrea was at the time and the future events of Pandaemonium). But thanks to Kairos, the memories of us there are a little inconsistent and essentially turn up as a brief 'wait what the hell' moment.

Perhaps none of them even remember us, but Emet and/or Hermes saw us from a distance and that stuck into the memories enough for Elidibus to notice.

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Originally Posted by LystAP

1 and 2 are already done. We can teleport to Elpis at a specific point in time - where people acknowledge us as Azem's familiar. There doesn't need to be a complex rationale behind it. Some weird timely wimy thing has us linked to this particular Elpis in space and time. Do recall that the First wasn't always temporally balanced with the Source. The other Scions spent years in the First whereas only a few months have past on the Source when you went back.

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Issues remain, the door to Elpis limits us to a very specific period of time, and you’d still have the issues I mentioned if you don’t attempt to replicate those magicks.

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Originally Posted by LystAP

The rest will depend on SE writing the plot. The quickest way is to just have the Convocation use the Echo on you. The Ancients also have ways to determine if your lying.

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Exactly how effective the echo is with finding specific memories is difficult to say. Ultimately, the problem is that even if you convince them, you still have Hermes sabotage to deal with, and given he isn’t there to help with Zodiark now, it’s unlikely you’ll succeed at forestalling the first final days. It was SE who wrote that limitation.

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Originally Posted by LystAP

Venat judged that many would fall to despair when faced with 'reality', but that's also her own presumption. That's an assumption Vauthy made of people of the First as well, but we've seen how that turned out. In this expansion, Vrtra was convinced (based off his eons of experience) that everyone would hate him, but it didn't turn out that way either. As is noted in the story, Venat as flawed as much as everyone else.

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And yet we are shown why we should believe her judgement the correct one, if their reaction to the Final Days is indicative.

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Originally Posted by Kordarion

Except that if you look at the following dialogue options we are given both outright state that that isn't the case at all. One says that it wasn't there all along and the other says we made it together, which I presume has something to do with the scions as Meteion says this in relation to having used her powers to feel the player characters emotions.

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I took that as referring to mankind in general and the sum total of their experiences since Meteion's time making it.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Exactly how effective the echo is with finding specific memories is difficult to say. Ultimately, the problem is that even if you convince them, you still have Hermes sabotage to deal with, and given he isn’t there to help with Zodiark now, it’s unlikely you’ll succeed at forestalling the first final days. It was SE who wrote that limitation.

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But that's not what SE wrote. Venat merely suggests keeping Hermes in the dark because he is a "brilliant mind" and could be useful, at no point is he given specific credit for any part of Zodiark's creation or discovering the solution.

But more importantly, Venat still didn't tell them even after Zodiark was created and the Final Days halted. At that point if Hermes had been crucial to their prior success, it had already been achieved and he had outlived his usefulness. At that point there is no excuse not to reveal the truth.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

But that's not what SE wrote. Venat merely suggests keeping Hermes in the dark because he is a "brilliant mind" and could be useful, at no point is he given specific credit for any part of Zodiark's creation or discovering the solution.

But more importantly, Venat still didn't tell them even after Zodiark was created and the Final Days halted. At that point if Hermes had been crucial to their prior success, it had already been achieved and he had outlived his usefulness. At that point there is no excuse not to reveal the truth.

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I'm fairly certain that in one of the conversations leading up to Elpis that is is stated that Fandaniel/Hermes was the person who discovered that the Final days phenomena was occurring where the celestial aether currents were weakest therefore, even if he missed the mark on the true cause, he was still the one to discover the relationship between weak aether fields and the final days manifesting.

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Originally Posted by Kordarion

I'm fairly certain that in one of the conversations leading up to Elpis that is is stated that Fandaniel/Hermes was the person who discovered that the Final days phenomena was occurring where the celestial aether currents were weakest therefore, even if he missed the mark on the true cause, he was still the one to discover the relationship between weak aether fields and the final days manifesting.

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But Hermes uncovering that relation would no longer be relevant given that Venat was made privy to that selfsame connection. It's an informational paradox but the timeline is full of that now.

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Originally Posted by Kordarion

I'm fairly certain that in one of the conversations leading up to Elpis that is is stated that Fandaniel/Hermes was the person who discovered that the Final days phenomena was occurring where the celestial aether currents were weakest therefore, even if he missed the mark on the true cause, he was still the one to discover the relationship between weak aether fields and the final days manifesting.

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You're right. In 'Hope Upon a Flower,' Elidibus tells you that Fandaniel discovered this, and that he subsequently dedicated the rest of his days to devising a countermeasure.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Issues remain, the door to Elpis limits us to a very specific period of time, and you’d still have the issues I mentioned if you don’t attempt to replicate those magicks.

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What issues? There's no indication that we are currently being inhibited to travel back to that time. And that specific period of time should be enough to interact with the necessary people to make a impact. What matters is that it is before the Final Days.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Exactly how effective the echo is with finding specific memories is difficult to say. Ultimately, the problem is that even if you convince them, you still have Hermes sabotage to deal with, and given he isn’t there to help with Zodiark now, it’s unlikely you’ll succeed at forestalling the first final days. It was SE who wrote that limitation.

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The Ancients have more precise control over the Echo than the WoL. It's why Venat had you mount Argos and travel to that floating island. She was able to bring up the exact time that Hermes sent off the Meteia. As noted earlier in this thread, we have the answer that Hermes was looking for in our memories. With that answer, Hermes would have no reason to sabotage the plan, and work towards saving the star. It was a answer that Meteion accepted, and Hermes would see that. If for some weird reason he isn't convinced, the Convocation would still have the idea of Zodiark from you, as well as the mechanics behind it.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

And yet we are shown why we should believe her judgement the correct one, if their reaction to the Final Days is indicative.

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It's unknown what exactly Venat did, but it doesn't seem at all she told people the truth. We are shown why she did what she did, but this was done after the Final Days, and when there is a possibility that Zodiark tempered part of the populace.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

But more importantly, Venat still didn't tell them even after Zodiark was created and the Final Days halted. At that point if Hermes had been crucial to their prior success, it had already been achieved and he had outlived his usefulness. At that point there is no excuse not to reveal the truth.

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It's rather weird that Venat didn't reveal the truth to the Convocation AFTER the Final Days were averted.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

But Hermes uncovering that relation would no longer be relevant given that Venat was made privy to that selfsame connection. It's an informational paradox but the timeline is full of that now.

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The Watcher states that the knowledge of celestial aether currents is known only to a few scholars, much like Dynamis. Hermes was the one to conclude that the Final Days effected areas with stagnant and weak aether first. The Watcher says this is and his other contributions were “invaluable”, the exact word Venat used to describe Hermes, at the time, potential contribution.

Elidibus agrees, explaining that his work didn’t end there:

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Having shed light upon the phenomenon, he dedicated himself to devising a countermeasure. We’re it not for his knowledge of the celestial, we would never have made the connection - and thence forestalled the Final Days.

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This states there was more to his role than simply recognizing the connection, he actively worked on the issue, using his “invaluable” knowledge to create a solution. To deny the Convocation of that, even if they knew what the problem was on a simplistic basis, is such a misguided move that I can’t believe we’re still arguing over it. No one but Hermes and Venat knew of the celestial currents and their connection to the Final Days. No one but Hermes had that knowledge with a deep understanding of the nature of those selfsame currents to actively utilize them for a solution. This is fact.

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Originally Posted by LystAP

What issues? There's no indication that we are currently being inhibited to travel back to that time. And that specific period of time should be enough to interact with the necessary people to make a impact. What matters is that it is before the Final Days.

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That’s an assertion without evidence. Venat clearly explains the issues with what you’re proposing.

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The Ancients have more precise control over the Echo than the WoL. It's why Venat had you mount Argos and travel to that floating island. She was able to bring up the exact time that Hermes sent off the Meteia. As noted earlier in this thread, we have the answer that Hermes was looking for in our memories. With that answer, Hermes would have no reason to sabotage the plan, and work towards saving the star. It was a answer that Meteion accepted, and Hermes would see that. If for some weird reason he isn't convinced, the Convocation would still have the idea of Zodiark from you, as well as the mechanics behind it.

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Im not sure the WoL has a deep understanding of the nuances of celestial aether, how to summon a primal as powerful as Zodiark, and form Him correctly.

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]It's unknown what exactly Venat did, but it doesn't seem at all she told people the truth. We are shown why she did what she did, but this was done after the Final Days, and when there is a possibility that Zodiark tempered part of the populace.

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Then we’ll have to agree to disagree because we have no evidence of everything that was said.

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It's rather weird that Venat didn't reveal the truth to the Convocation AFTER the Final Days were averted.

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Hermes was still kicking and wouldn’t react well. Then there’s the issue of the Concoation being slightly tempered, the populace in the throes of despair and the world ravaged. Telling them that a being beyond the stars is coming for them, and that all known life in the universe is dead except for them would not have gone well.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

The Watcher states that the knowledge of celestial aether currents is known only to a few scholars,

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The very nature of that statement confirms that Hermes wasn't the only option.

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We’re it not for his knowledge of the celestial, we would never have made the connection - and thence forestalled the Final Days.

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Venat knew of the connection, as such Hermes was rendered redundant.

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No one but Hermes had that knowledge with a deep understanding of the nature of those selfsame currents to actively utilize them for a solution.

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The currents had to be stimulated in order to produce a shield of aether around the planet. Hence Zodiark's summoning and his aspect to astral - active - aether. It is not plausible that Hermes was the only person on the entire planet who could have recognized such a straightforward solution. Even less so when we consider that as of the end of Elpis Hermes' own mentor, the previous Fandaniel, was still alive and had yet to step down from the seat.

And all of this is still an utter aside to the fact that there is not even a thin veneer of rationale presented as to why Venat couldn't tell everyone after Zodiark was summoned and the Final Days halted. At that point Hermes is completely irrelevant and could be dealt with at will. Yet Venat still kept to secrecy and did not warn anyone else of the true threat intent on their destruction.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

The very nature of that statement confirms that Hermes wasn't the only option.

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No, it doesn’t. Once again, Hermes was a brilliant mind, had knowledge of celestial aether currents, a wealth of experience from running Elpis and explicitly studied the subject. Interpreting “only a handful knew about the subject” and “he would be invaluable” as “he could easily be replaced” is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Venat knew of the connection, as such Hermes was rendered redundant.

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Clearly you skipped reading my post.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

The currents had to be stimulated in order to produce a shield of aether around the planet. Hence Zodiark's summoning and his aspect to astral - active - aether. It is not plausible that Hermes was the only person on the entire planet who could have recognized such a straightforward solution. Even less so when we consider that as of the end of Elpis Hermes' own mentor, the previous Fandaniel, was still alive and had yet to step down from the seat.

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Let me use an example. Vaccines, in their most basic form, take a disease and use a deactivated form of it to ready the immune system for the real thing. A simple concept. Could you make a vaccine?

Or how about another. Local weather conditions are largely impacted by regular cold and warm fronts. A simple concept. Can you tell what the weather will be?

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Originally Posted by Veloran

And all of this is still an utter aside to the fact that there is not even a thin veneer of rationale presented as to why Venat couldn't tell everyone after Zodiark was summoned and the Final Days halted. At that point Hermes is completely irrelevant and could be dealt with at will. Yet Venat still kept to secrecy and did not warn anyone else of the true threat intent on their destruction.

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Yes a Convocation member and former head of Elpis doing everything in his power to destroy the world, with 2/3 of the worlds population stuck inside of a god he was instrumental in designing, Etheirys barely recovering from the destruction, and Amaurot divided in such a major way for the first time, is no big deal. That’s not even considering the fact that telling a tempered convocation, preparing a sacrifice of innocent life to Zodiark, is a pointless move. Their answer was clear.

Zodiark will save us.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

No, it doesn’t.

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Yes, it does. Saying that other scholars knew means that Hermes wasn't the only option.

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Let me use an example. Vaccines, in their most basic form, take a disease and use a deactivated form of it to ready the immune system for the real thing. A simple concept. Could you make a vaccine?

Or how about another. Local weather conditions are largely impacted by regular cold and warm fronts. A simple concept. Can you tell what the weather will be?

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To turn these around into significantly more pertinent questions for this discussion, are Jerome Kim and Jim Cantore the only people in the world that can possibly make vaccines or predict the weather? The entire basis of your argument isn't "Well YOU couldn't do it!" it's "Well NOBODY ELSE could do it!" Do you seriously mean to tell me that Hermes was not just a brilliant mind, but also the sole singular pioneer into both Dynamis and the celestial aether currents, two completely unrelated fields of study, all while also running Elpis full time, an entirely different third disconnected realm of science?

Aside from the fact that this is clearly not believable, remember once more that Hermes' own mentor, the previous seat of Fandaniel, was yet still alive.

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Yes a Convocation member and former head of Elpis doing everything in his power to destroy the world, with 2/3 of the worlds population stuck inside of a god he was instrumental in designing, Etheirys barely recovering from the destruction, and Amaurot divided in such a major way for the first time, is no big deal.

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Sundering all life on the planet and the fabric of reality was a far "bigger deal" than all of that. A last resort, not something you pull out because you're afraid of upsetting others with the truth. The fact is, if it came out that Hermes had caused everything then he would be standing alone, nobody would stick up for him if he was the root cause of so much death and destruction, and he would be unable to cause anymore harm - If that is even what he would have intended to do, which Venat doesn't even concede, instead merely saying that she doesn't know for sure either way if he would be friend or foe.

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That’s not even considering the fact that telling a tempered convocation, preparing a sacrifice of innocent life to Zodiark, is a pointless move. Their answer was clear.

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And yet Venat DID try to talk to them, except she was lying to them in doing so by withholding the truth. This whole "tempering = had to be killed" nonsense is way past done with the revelations from Shadowbringers and Endwalker anyway, namely that Zodiark was actually Elidibus, a guy that just wanted to find a peaceful solution for each faction, and that Zodiark wasn't even capable of tempering people outright to begin with, instead only "tugging" their aether towards his astral aspect somewhat, something completely supported in ShB when Emet acts against the Zodiark cause's best interests on numerous occasions.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Yes, it does. Saying that other scholars knew means that Hermes wasn't the only option.

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To turn these around into significantly more pertinent questions for this discussion, are Jerome Kim and Jim Cantore the only people in the world that can possibly make vaccines or predict the weather? The entire basis of your argument isn't "Well YOU couldn't do it!" it's "Well NOBODY ELSE could do it!"

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I agree those aren't the best examples but not because of your stated reasons. It is because of the quantity of people who can do those things, there are likely thousands of people who could do either of those things but there was only a HANDFULL, as in less that a dozen people who could do what Hermes does. Sure you could find someone else but when you have an expert right there who is proven to know what to do would you take that risk and make it even worse?

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Aside from the fact that this is clearly not believable, remember once more that Hermes' own mentor, the previous seat of Fandaniel, was yet still alive.

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But would he be by the time Venat got to Amurot? The whole point of Emet & Hythlodaeus being at Elpis is that the former Fandaniel is about to commit ritual suicide and needs a replacement, one which he gets when Hermes returns to Amurot post-Elpis. He could have died by the time Venat reached the capitol considering that the others appear to have left before Venat or we do. Let alone the fact that we don't know if ex-Fandaniel had that knowledge, it stands to reason he might but we don't know.

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Sundering all life on the planet and the fabric of reality was a far "bigger deal" than all of that. A last resort, not something you pull out because you're afraid of upsetting others with the truth.

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I'm not sure if the sarcasm went over your head but triggering a nihilistic breakdown in a man who was a part of designing and making a god that than manipulate the laws of reality and causing him to fight for the end of the universe is a FAR BIGGER deal than the sundering, especially when you consider that Elidibus was out in the world and that therefore Zodiak was lacking a heart. Venat was likely afraid of Hermes pulling a Fandaniel with heartless-Zodiark as we likely described to her when explaining future events.

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This whole "tempering = had to be killed" nonsense is way past done with the revelations from Shadowbringers and Endwalker

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I agree the tempered do not need to be killed, however it doesn't sound like they were arguing that "tempering = had to be killed", it sounded like they were arguing that the convocation would be like, we have Zodiark and his reality bending powers to keep us safe why should we do anything else.

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Originally Posted by Kordarion

Sure you could find someone else but when you have an expert right there who is proven to know what to do would you take that risk and make it even worse?

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Because that risk should have been weighed against significantly more dire risks, namely billions of people dying before they could find countermeasures.

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But would he be by the time Venat got to Amurot?

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It didn't seem to me as though the trio were rushing back to Amaurot immediately after the situation with Ktisis. Even if they had done so, it appears as though the Ancients had quite a bit of ceremony when returning to the star, such that Hermes and the others would surely be present for. Fandaniel's stepping down was oncoming yes, but it didn't appear to be so urgent that Emet and Hythlodaeus couldn't loiter about Elpis for several days waiting for Hermes' answer.

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Let alone the fact that we don't know if ex-Fandaniel had that knowledge, it stands to reason he might but we don't know.

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It's true that we can't know with complete certainty, but this guy was Hermes' own mentor and the seat that Hermes was supposed to take up. By all rights he should be at least as qualified as Hermes, if not moreso.

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I'm not sure if the sarcasm went over your head but triggering a nihilistic breakdown in a man who was a part of designing and making a god that than manipulate the laws of reality and causing him to fight for the end of the universe is a FAR BIGGER deal than the sundering, especially when you consider that Elidibus was out in the world and that therefore Zodiak was lacking a heart. Venat was likely afraid of Hermes pulling a Fandaniel with heartless-Zodiark as we likely described to her when explaining future events.

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Why could she have not told them before Elidibus exited Zodiark? And no, Hermes as a lone actor is far and away of lesser import than the sundering, there is no way this one guy overpowers Venat and the Convocation all at once. Again, if he even would.

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it sounded like they were arguing that the convocation would be like, we have Zodiark and his reality bending powers to keep us safe why should we do anything else.

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Because Meteion was an existential threat, a sword of Damocles hanging over their heads for all time, growing more powerful by the moment. Even if their only desire was to return things to the way they were and live in peace, Meteion's existence would forever endanger that. It's in their best interests to act against her. And even if the majority of the Ancients weren't interested and didn't want anything to do with it, the fact that Venat had a faction at all proves that some people were willing to do something about it, and if everyone was given the same information they could then make an informed decision on that basis.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

That’s an assertion without evidence. Venat clearly explains the issues with what you’re proposing.

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How is it an assertion? Venat did not explain the issues at all. She postulated, but did not say that for sure it will be. She noted that there are 'dangers', but in no way was she certain of any. The bulk of her reasoning was focused on having us fulfill our responsibilities first, while she took care of things on her end.

Dynamis was such an esoteric field of study Emet-Selch didn't know about it, Venat didn't know about it, his fellow researchers on Elpis knew little to nothing about it, and Hermes was the only person known to have intentionally created an entelechy - and a self-willed one, at that. Even if others knew about dynamis, with the information at our disposal he was unquestionably the expert on the subject. I seriously doubt any other researcher would be able to work just as well.

Ultimately Elpis exists as part of a time loop; everything that takes place there already happened, therefore we have no way to actually change the events that take place there without creating a paradox. You can go backwards in time without creating a paradox, but if you "change" the future and / or are not in a time loop you won't be able to return to the present from which you sallied forth unto the past. We don't know if G'raha could do it because he never tried, and the PC's interest was in saving the world of today, not yesterday.

Besides which as per multiverse theory there are infinite other realities where Amaurot never fell. So, go nuts in fanfics.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Dynamis was such an esoteric field of study Emet-Selch didn't know about it, Venat didn't know about it, his fellow researchers on Elpis knew little to nothing about it, and Hermes was the only person known to have intentionally created an entelechy - and a self-willed one, at that. Even if others knew about dynamis, with the information at our disposal he was unquestionably the expert on the subject. I seriously doubt any other researcher would be able to work just as well.

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Nothing we're told about Hermes' contribution to the Zodiark project has anything to do with Dynamis. Rather it's recognizing the connection between areas afflicted with the Final Days and the stagnicity of the aether currents in those locations that he's credited with. Something Venat was already aware of.

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You can go backwards in time without creating a paradox, but if you "change" the future and / or are not in a time loop you won't be able to return to the present from which you sallied forth unto the past.

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Venat suggests that WoL may actually be returning to an altered future if she is successful in safeguarding her present.

https://i.imgur.com/4yannr4.jpg

Regardless, as Veloran pointed out, dynamis is never named as a factor in Fandaniel's contribution to the Final Days.

This is all just sounding like too many levels of speculation about an event that can't and didn't happen in our timeline.

If the writers wanted to create a branch of time where we save the ancient world from the Final Days, there is the potential to write a sequence of events where it can be saved.

If they don't want to go there, they are not going to explore the possibility.

Overall though, the story pushed the idea so hard that the ancients' outlook on life doomed them to failure - not just in Elpis but in the parables of the Dead Ends - and so I can't see them returning to it and saying "actually their attitude isn't so bad and we'll make a second timeline where they just carry on doing what they were doing".

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

https://i.imgur.com/4yannr4.jpg

Regardless, as Veloran pointed out, dynamis is never named as a factor in Fandaniel's contribution to the Final Days.

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Does it have to be? Do you need that level of hand-holding?

Hermes is the only noteworthy expert on dynamis; it's more a coincidence than a product of his role, similar to how Hades' connection to the underworld wasn't a requirement of the seat of Emet-Selch, meaning that they weren't guaranteed to have an expert on deck. As Hermes tells us, dynamis essentially has power when aether is weaker. The Convocation were able to predict where the End of Days was going to erupt because celestial aether currents--which were also not a commonly known concept, and like dynamis were largely unknown to the present day--were weaker. This was also what led to the solution of Zodiark. Crucially, the reason these factors weren't connected in-story until Elpis was because the guy who told us was The Watcher, who didn't know that connection.

Did you need the connection spelt out for you by the game itself? That the guy that knows what happens when aether gets thin probably used that knowledge of what happens when aether gets thin to solve the problem of something bad happening in places where aether was thin?

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Did you need the connection spelt out for you by the game itself? That the guy that knows what happens when aether gets thin probably used that knowledge of what happens when aether gets thin to solve the problem of something bad happening in places where aether was thin?

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Yes, I'm sure that was meant to be inferred and thus went unstated. Unlike the countless times an obvious and directly-stated plot-point is reiterated to the player because it's meant to be understood.

But no, I'm forced to assume they didn't know and Hermes never recognized it because every single time it comes up in their context (Emet-Selch explaining it, the Amaurot phantoms explaining it, the Watcher explaining it etc) the Final Days is always referenced as a giant mystery with seemingly no cause that nobody understood. Whereas "the planet is being bombarded with mystical space energy" is a pretty clearcut problem. Like if Earth was being slammed with a huge solar storm, nobody should be acting mystified that electronics everywhere are frying out.

My feeling has always been that to justify a character performing an act as severe as the sundering, intentionally and with full knowledge of the devastating future, the reasoning had to be iron clad. My POV is that the writers failed to make this case and it wasn't just with Hermes. All of Venat's reasoning is faulty.

If I'm to accept that this was the only way, that what we ended up with was the best case scenario, then they needed to do a lot better. Otherwise, I have no reason not to believe there was a better outcome that Venat sabotaged either in ignorance or hubris.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

My feeling has always been that to justify a character performing an act as severe as the sundering, intentionally and with full knowledge of the devastating future, the reasoning had to be iron clad. My POV is that the writers failed to make this case and it wasn't just with Hermes. All of Venat's reasoning is faulty.

If I'm to accept that this was the only way, that what we ended up with was the best case scenario, then they needed to do a lot better. Otherwise, I have no reason not to believe there was a better outcome that Venat sabotaged either in ignorance or hubris.

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Failed might be the wrong way of looking at it. I think its very intentionally portayed as a questionable decision, but one that we as the sundered clearly benefited from. They might've pushed the sympathy for both sides a bit too hard in EW though. I prefered Shb levels, where the villain was sympathetic but still clearly a villain (for us anyways).

You don't need to know all the answers to solve a problem. You just need to know where to look to find them.

Part of Emet's reasoning for selecting Hermes is based on this:
'That personal annoyance aside, Hermes' knowledge is undeniably impressive. Given that there are none among the Fourteen who specialize in the celestial, he would be a welcome addition.' (MSQ: Lives Apart)

It doesn't matter if there are people out there who happen to be experts in Celestial currents or Dynamis. None of them are on the Convocation and in charge of policy. This is the whole point of having an advisory council or cabinet. You could write a fanfic about how some recluse researcher broke into the Convocation proceedings, explained everything that was wrong with the Final Days and the solution before being arrested, and spared the Ancients the need for Sunder-Anchovy Pizza-Murder. But we have enough fanfics on these forums nowadays, and not enough actual validated lore.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Failed might be the wrong way of looking at it. I think its very intentionally portayed as a questionable decision, but one that we as the sundered clearly benefited from. They might've pushed the sympathy for both sides a bit too hard in EW though. I prefered Shb levels, where the villain was sympathetic but still clearly a villain (for us anyways).

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Yeah, this is absolutely the angle. Tactically, Venat's plan was ironclad (or at least, as ironclad as it could get). Ethically, it was questionable.

To a point on an 'ironclad plan' though, you have to be willing to take the authors' word on it. Actually showing to exact lengths that a plan will be successful--and more successful than any alternatives--would just get tedious and boring, as well as lessening the impact of the actual characters enacting said plan, not to mention being basically catnip to people who value being smarter than the story over enjoying it. You kinda have to accept whatever groundwork the story goes through to confirm 'this is a good plan'.

Emet-Selch specifically saying that Venat's plan worked when his wouldn't have is part of that. Emet-Selch is a trustworthy adjudicator of Plan Goodness here, both as someone who initially opposed it and someone with a uniquely wide amount of knowledge of the situation, so if he says that it's the only one that would've worked then we can safely assume that is indeed true.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

You don't need to know all the answers to solve a problem. You just need to know where to look to find them.

Part of Emet's reasoning for selecting Hermes is based on this:
'That personal annoyance aside, Hermes' knowledge is undeniably impressive. Given that there are none among the Fourteen who specialize in the celestial, he would be a welcome addition.' (MSQ: Lives Apart)

It doesn't matter if there are people out there who happen to be experts in Celestial currents or Dynamis. None of them are on the Convocation and in charge of policy. This is the whole point of having an advisory council or cabinet.

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And similarly, yeah, this is the sort of evidence you need to accept. You don't need to know the exact conditions of the plan nearly as much as you need to know that the characters within it can devise those conditions.

...actually, the only time you need to know the exact conditions of a plan in a story is when the plan goes wrong. At that point you need to know the details so you can recognize them yourself. It's why heist movies go over the plan, so you can recognize when the plan goes bad. Which is actually why we ultimately know more details of the Zodiark plan; that's the one that failed, so we needed more detail as to how.