What is worth going to war for?

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

It was a joke, I was making a joke about the obvious technology gap and the fantasy "trope" of magic equalising societies with completely different technological levels. I mean, you have lasers guns and canons versus wooden bows and old sailing ships. Its a bit ridiculous when you think about it.

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TBH it didn't seem like you were joking at all. As for the wooden bows etc, the magic the rest of the world uses is effectively their technology. They make new spells, enchantments etc and they can be extremely powerful to the point that they can defend against magitek or entirely overpower it.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Then maybe you should concede that you need to get better at writing jokes, because literally nothing you have said reads any different from anything else you've said, and none of it was very funny.

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I found it quite funny actually. I think people are just far too serious a lot of the time and look for things to get annoyed by or upset about. Think everyone needs to lighten up.The amount of people in this thread who throw words like nazi and fascist around willy nilly is far more shocking and in poor taste.

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Originally Posted by Garnetiferous

TBH it didn't seem like you were joking at all. As for the wooden bows etc, the magic the rest of the world uses is effectively their technology. They make new spells, enchantments etc and they can be extremely powerful to the point that they can defend against magitek or entirely overpower it.

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Well text lacks context, if I were speaking it, I would make it pretty obvious it was a joke. But I think we can all learn a lesson from this... I can learn to phrase what I say better and you can learn to not assume evil intent from people on the internet. That way, everyone wins!

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Then maybe you should concede that you need to get better at writing jokes, because literally nothing you have said reads any different from anything else you've said, and none of it was very funny.

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Yeah, it didn't come off as a joke to me, which is why I got so heated. As I said, I have family who died in WW2. I still remember my grandfather telling me stories of my great-grandfather before he went off to war and remember him breaking down in to tears.

I'm sorry if I got anyone upset. But when you've lost family to that kind of stuff, it doesn't get easier.

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

Well text lacks context, if I were speaking it, I would make it pretty obvious it was a joke. But I think we can all learn a lesson from this... I can learn to phrase what I say better and you can learn to not assume evil intent from people on the internet. That way, everyone wins!

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Don't confuse me with the people calling you a fascist. I never said that nor do I think that.

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Originally Posted by Garnetiferous

Don't confuse me with the people calling you a fascist. I never said that nor do I think that.

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That was a general comment to everyone really, not you specifically. People are so quick to assume evil, where incompetence is usually the reason these days. I pray for the day that social media dies, it really has made everyone think the worst of everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Yeah, it didn't come off as a joke to me, which is why I got so heated. As I said, I have family who died in WW2. I still remember my grandfather telling me stories of my great-grandfather before he went off to war and remember him breaking down in to tears.

I'm sorry if I got anyone upset. But when you've lost family to that kind of stuff, it doesn't get easier.

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My grandfather was a Lancaster bomber pilot during WWII so I have respect for your family. If anything I said was offensive, I sincerely apologise. We need to remember that this is a fictional setting and we are talking about the geopolitics of a fictional word. I probably should have added a disclaimer.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

As I said, I have family who died in WW2.

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I suspect many others posting here are in the same position - myself included. I don't think it is particularly beneficial to bring up such heavy topics in a debate over a fictional fantasy race, though. Especially when a lot of people simply use the game itself as something fun to play in their spare time.

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

My grandfather was a Lancaster bomber pilot during WWII so I have respect for your family. If anything I said was offensive, I sincerely apologise. We need to remember that this is a fictional setting and we are talking about the geopolitics of a fictional word. I probably should have added a disclaimer.

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True. I'm still not a fan of the Garleans, though. :P And I apologize for the "supporting Nazis" comment. I know most people don't support their practices and while I'm not a huge fan of a strong, centralized government (despite being a liberal), I understand why some do. I let my temper get the best of me sometimes. I'd blame it on my depression, but sometimes I realize I'm just a jerk.

Except Jullus. I really do like how they showed the differing sides of the Garleans during zone 3. You have the people so indoctrinated that they would rather die than accept help from the "savages" and people like Jullus who all his life held the same belief, but was able to change and realize what he was taught was wrong. Still probably one of my favorite zones of the expac.

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

It was a joke, I was making a joke about the obvious technology gap and the fantasy "trope" of magic equalising societies with completely different technological levels. I mean, you have lasers guns and canons versus wooden bows and old sailing ships. Its a bit ridiculous when you think about it.

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I'm sure this bafflement was brought up multiple times behind the lines in-setting. The imperial propaganda machine probably had to work overtime explaining why those primal-worshipping Eorzean savages somehow keep eating up their legions. Our Warrior of Light likely ended up being a big scapegoat for that.

The technological edge the Garleans had early on against the Eorzeans was definitely a big thing, but they underestimated just how powerful magic is, especially in aether-rich Eorzea. Yes they have robots and guns, but the Eorzeans have thaumaturges that can melt said robots, and barriers that can protect against said guns. Bows with arrows that can potentially be alchemically treated to explode, or pierce or eat through metal via acid, or lightning aether to disable them. Magic is very much treated as a science in Eorzea and ESPECIALLY Sharlayan, something I'm sure also flew in the face of what Garleans may have thought. "Magic just works by saying mystical words and waving your arms around and pray something happens, right? What do you MEAN a squadron of knights armed with nothing but swords riding a horsebird somehow tore through our warmachina?!? WHAT YOU MEAN THE HORSEBIRDS ARE CALLING DOWN METEORS?!?"

I feel bad for those in charge of the miltiary budgets and resources of the imperial war machine. They had the Agrius-class dreadnoughts, airships big enough to lift an entire army across the sky. Impressive and menacing, likely took a tremendous amount of resource to build...but one was given a lethal hug by Midgardsormr, and the other's engines were permanently frozen by Shiva. To say nothing of the even more humiliating fate of the Dalriada in Bozja...

To respond to an earlier comment accusing me of acting in bad faith. I was looking to see what other things people saw as good reasons for war. Or even other hypocrisies or failings of the Sharlayan world view that they had spotted.

I did not expect so many defenders of pacifism. Just...shocking. Why? Why would you be unwilling to fight and defend that which you hold dear? Unless you hold nothing to be of value? Course at that point we get into the why live at all argument of the expansion.

I made the argument that the father asking 'what is worth going to war for' phrased in such a way as to imply NOTHING is worth going to war for, is dumb. There are a million good reasons for conflict. There are a million bad reasons. Had he asked 'what makes these Eorzean's worth fighting for?', that I could see as a good argument. If the game emphasized more that Sharlaya will fight and kill for their own interests, but not help others, that would have been fine. But the game presents it in such a way as to make the Sharlayans seems as holier than thou pacifists.

I do not expect anyone in the setting to simply roll over and take anything forced upon them in either direction. At the same time, I also don't necessarily think a stance of avoidance and pacifism is the worst thing ever, either. If a particular nation or individual seeks to stay out of a conflict, then I do believe they should have the right to do as much. In the same vein, if they end up getting drawn into conflict then those same individuals or groups should, in turn, not necessarily expect help to arrive.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

To respond to an earlier comment accusing me of acting in bad faith. I was looking to see what other things people saw as good reasons for war. Or even other hypocrisies or failings of the Sharlayan world view that they had spotted.

I did not expect so many defenders of pacifism. Just...shocking. Why? Why would you be unwilling to fight and defend that which you hold dear? Unless you hold nothing to be of value? Course at that point we get into the why live at all argument of the expansion.

I made the argument that the father asking 'what is worth going to war for' phrased in such a way as to imply NOTHING is worth going to war for, is dumb. There are a million good reasons for conflict. There are a million bad reasons. Had he asked 'what makes these Eorzean's worth fighting for?', that I could see as a good argument. If the game emphasized more that Sharlaya will fight and kill for their own interests, but not help others, that would have been fine. But the game presents it in such a way as to make the Sharlayans seems as holier than thou pacifists.

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I don't think pacifism is bad, per say. If you can find a better way than violence, then I believe that should be the optimal path. Sometimes, you have to fight, to defend that which you love. But it should always be a last resort kind of thing.

I'm not even sure how capable the Sharlayans would be in a military situation. They're scholars, not warriors and they've focused so much of their time and energy into prepping for the final days, who knows how many resources the devoted to their military. They're a people who feel they're tasked with a higher purpose of helping people escape the star when the Final Days come. They're almost religious in that way and there are plenty of religions that preach pacifism (though not everyone follows those teachings, of course).

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

I'm not even sure how capable the Sharlayans would be in a military situation. They're scholars, not warriors and they've focused so much of their time and energy into prepping for the final days, who knows how many resources the devoted to their military. They're a people who feel they're tasked with a higher purpose of helping people escape the star when the Final Days come. They're almost religious in that way and there are plenty of religions that preach pacifism (though not everyone follows those teachings, of course).

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If you want to argue the raw martial ability of Sharlayan, I think they've got some cred. Being the origins of both Sage and Astrologian (the version we get, at least) they certainly have the capability to hold their own in a fight.

However, they'd never actually have to get into a military situation, because they're not really a useful target; they're an isolated island nation with no clear strategic value or resources, and aren't inclined to get involved themselves, so they're unlikely to be in an offensive or defensive war. They have shown themselves adept at infiltration and subterfuge, though (hello, AST questline), so they're still not a fun enemy to make. More likely to assassinate key people than to actually organize an army.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

To respond to an earlier comment accusing me of acting in bad faith. I was looking to see what other things people saw as good reasons for war. Or even other hypocrisies or failings of the Sharlayan world view that they had spotted.

I did not expect so many defenders of pacifism. Just...shocking. Why? Why would you be unwilling to fight and defend that which you hold dear? Unless you hold nothing to be of value? Course at that point we get into the why live at all argument of the expansion.

I made the argument that the father asking 'what is worth going to war for' phrased in such a way as to imply NOTHING is worth going to war for, is dumb. There are a million good reasons for conflict. There are a million bad reasons. Had he asked 'what makes these Eorzean's worth fighting for?', that I could see as a good argument. If the game emphasized more that Sharlaya will fight and kill for their own interests, but not help others, that would have been fine. But the game presents it in such a way as to make the Sharlayans seems as holier than thou pacifists.

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They're valid and good reasons. Ones that I'm sure the Sharlayans have had levelled at them more than once, something the twins are likely very aware of. They weren't stupid, they simply couldn't answer in a way that wouldn't be snagged by one of the usual gotcha answers they likely come up with. The game also doesn't really side with or have the narrative frame their pacifism in an overly positive light. Louisoux, Matoya, the Circle of Knowing, the Archons, the Scions, ALL are Sharlayans that have, over the course of the entire storyline, were very much guided by the desire to help the world at large. Matoya is NOT subtle about calling the Forum spineless and craven. And we've certainly seen quite a few others, even if they abhor the practice of war, are not above helping out individuals, even if it's through decidedly non-pacifistic means.

Exactly, the narrative ultimately comes out against the Sharlayan's position of absolute pacifism. I just think it's reductive to call them "stupid" for having. They are right in that war causing untold suffering and grief, and that it is difficult to justify. They think it is impossible, and they are not short-sighted or foolish for having that position, even if it is ultimately wrong.

But answering the question of what makes war worth fighting is difficult - especially when it's leveled by your own father as he disowns you. It wasn't just a scholarly debate for Alphinaud, it was a highly difficult and emotionally charged moment, you can't blame him for letting his usual rhetorical skills fail him at the time.

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Originally Posted by Theox

People accusing others of being nazis and fascists over fictional story in a video game is insane. Makes you think about how drastically meaning of these terms have shifted from what they originally stand for.

But a quick note for that: understanding one's perspective =/= automatically agreeing with it. Please allow yourself to be curious and analyse things without emotional attachments.

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Well said. It is what puts off a good many people from lore discussions in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Agreed. I'm just going to make use of the ignore function rather than engage such individuals moving forward. Perhaps it might be of benefit for others to consider doing the same.

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^This.