To all the sprouts(new people) out there...

You can wall to wall pull if the Healer is good in early dungeons. If its a sprout healer Ill take it easy cause they tend to green dps. But if I see on the first pull I can go ham I will.

Sprouts you hold down that w key unbind the s key. Always move forward, keep pulling until a wall or death and if death stops you blame the healer or tank for not adjusting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VirusOnline

I am very confused.
I have been bumrushing since 2015.
We have all been bumrushing Sastasha since 2015.

---

No, all have not been doing this, all aren't doing it now. Shocking I know, but not everyone plays the game the same way.

Can't imagine not wall to wall pulling as much as possible. I gotta go fast.

Anyway for low level healers I just try to see if they know that lucid dreaming is a button they have. If they do, it's speedrun time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

This isn't world of warcraft. Stop treating dungeons like it is.

Signed,
Your healers

Edit for clarity: Almost every dungeon for the past couple weeks has been a complete mess of people with sprout icons trying to bumrush everything as if they are all immortal. I made the WoW reference because running dungeons in that game is honestly what it reminds me of, and not in a good way.

If I'd known that people would deliberately misrepresent my frustration I wouldn't have bothered.

---

No one was deliberately misinterpreting what you said. What you said was plain enough to have no room for misinterpretation - you were blaming WoW players.

Try taking responsibility for the things you say instead of gaslighting the community.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

No, all have not been doing this, all aren't doing it now. Shocking I know, but not everyone plays the game the same way.

---

But at the same time enough players have been doing it all along (or at least since I started playing in 2016) that only an idiot is going to act like it's something new then blame it on players coming from another game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

No, all have not been doing this, all aren't doing it now. Shocking I know, but not everyone plays the game the same way.

---

I, too, like to take my time with fights by standing around and not doing nothing, letting many buttons be unpressed
it's more cinematic that way

When you say "WoW player" you're talking about pretty much anyone who has ever played an MMORPG, so it's really ignorant to begin with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cithaerias_pyropina

ARR and HW dungeons are a complete joke now post stat-squish. -Someone who has made an alt to level reworked SMN from level 1 to 80. The only dungeon that can't be wall to wall pulled is, well, none.

---

The to-the-boss-gate suicide pull on Mt. Gulg is still pretty hair-raising and surviving it still depends on how much the healer has to dodge telegraphs but otherwise, yeah, it's all very do-able even in level-appropriate gear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bobby66

Sprouts you hold down that w key unbind the s key. Always move forward, keep pulling until a wall or death and if death stops you blame the healer or tank for not adjusting.

---

...now, that's fine for a tank, but if a dps decides to do the pulling, they're flipping a coin on whether the tank and healer decide to let them go ahead and try out that take role they seem to be so keen on playing.

But... I'm a Warrior.

I only have one mode.

Pull everything I can until there is nothing left to pull.

What's funny is this MUST WALL TO WALL ALWAYS ALWAYS EVERY TIME thing was like... New to me. As someone who came from wow lmao
Like yeah people steamroll dungeons in wow for sure, but dungeons in wow are also (somehow) even more ridiculously faceroll easy than in 14, and at the time I started playing 14... I mean I was still seeing groups wipe in stone vigil cause they couldn't handle pulling too many dragons lol

I mean I don't usually wall to wall in the lowest dungeons unless I'm queued up with friends because I just don't trust pugs like that but if you can get away with it like... Why not honestly

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kejakalope

...now, that's fine for a tank, but if a dps decides to do the pulling, they're flipping a coin on whether the tank and healer decide to let them go ahead and try out that take role they seem to be so keen on playing.

---

Still not zero see no reason not to. Galaxy brain tank do not want someone else pulling for ya just do not give them anything to pull.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Penthea

You could have vented your frustrations without trying to make WoW players look bad. Crazy idea I know.

---

That's true I suppose, and for that I apologize. Where else should I direct my frustration, because by every observable factor on my end it has grown much worse in the past few weeks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

This isn't world of warcraft.

---

Stopped reading after this.

The whole WoW VS Final Fantasy thing got boring ages ago.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

That's true I suppose, and for that I apologize. Where else should I direct my frustration, because by every observable factor on my end it has grown much worse in the past few weeks.

---

At players who just bumrush things. At the people causing you frustration. Not at an entire group of people that include those who aren't doing the thing that's causing you frustration.

I encountered a tank today with HP dropping a lot on first hit. Pulling double packs. Used all my CDs and cleared. Then it happened again. Tank died. I kept 1 dps alive while kiting.

For me it is up to the tank if it is good to do wall to wall or not. When i am in the tank job i do mostly one group and sometimes two groups. When i am as a healer in the dungeon, yes sometimes the tank does wall to wall pull, but there is no thing like you have to pull wall to wall, you can pull group by group if you like.

I've been playing FFXIV for years and wall to wall pulls are perfectly acceptable and were always a thing. Unless someone asks me to go slower because they are first timer and want to read texts.

I don't get it? In ARR dungeons you can safely pull up to 3 packs in ARR dungeons, can even pull up to reaching the boss depending how good you healer is and in HW forward you just do wall to wall, the game supports and encourage you doing big pulls, it lines up DPS cooldowns well, Tanks can easily survive them and healers have to actually, well, heal, otherwise they just spam their one DPS attack until tank gets to half health.

I mean, now that you mention it, because of M+, WoW players would be more used to pulling pack by pack instead of wall to wall.

As a tank I only full pull.

As a healer I expect full pulls.

As a DPS I hold cool downs till the entirety of the dungeon has been pulled.

Never played WoW before btw

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kejakalope

The to-the-boss-gate suicide pull on Mt. Gulg is still pretty hair-raising and surviving it still depends on how much the healer has to dodge telegraphs but otherwise, yeah, it's all very do-able even in level-appropriate gear.

---

it's surprisingly easy with sage, much to my surprise

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

That's true I suppose, and for that I apologize. Where else should I direct my frustration, because by every observable factor on my end it has grown much worse in the past few weeks.

---

The big boom in population from the WoW exodus began several months ago in the summer and we already saw congestion issues from that begin before autumn was full swing. If things were alright up until very recently I think it's safe to say that it's not only WoW players who are the source of your frustrations. Furthermore for years players from WoW have been coming to this game. I came from WoW during HW, as have many of my friends, and we did not try to do FF content like it's WoW.

Sure some WoW players do try to play as if it's still WoW and it often doesn't end well, but not all of them do. A lot of us have enough sense to know that we should approach a different game in a different way. I have encountered other players in the past with the "go go go" attitude that WoW is famous for but they had not even played WoW. Some had not even played mmorpgs. The attitude of rushing in head first without a second thought isn't unique to WoW players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Penthea

I'm getting really tired of people blaming every little thing that goes wrong on WoW players.

---

Preach. /10char

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

Where else should I direct my frustration

---

Maybe you can find the answers you seek within yourself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SherlottaEryut

Stopped reading after this.

The whole WoW VS Final Fantasy thing got boring ages ago.

---

It was tiresome back in XI, and it's so much worse now. I was really hoping all these stupid threads would stop once EW launched, but it seems this is the new norm. Lucky us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DezereDawn

Preach. /10char

---

what did preach do now? is still inspecting floors

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Penthea

... Furthermore for years players from WoW have been coming to this game. I came from WoW during HW, as have many of my friends...

---

This is true, I came from WoW in 2013 on the opening day of ARR.

So, I guess, I am one of those OP hated WoW players too!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Personally, I'd rather see daredevil sprouts that are willing and/or eager to do big pulls. It's been the norm & if they don't start somewhere, they'll forever stick to baby pulls until lv90.


The best thread to vent about your messy runs (or sharing your nice runs!) is this: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ry.-Let-s-vent.

Vent away to your heart's content over there, we all do need to vent from time to time. Although I have to agree with Penthea about targeting any particular groups regardless of your intention. Leave that one sentiment out, not everything from WoW is bad; game tribalism shouldn't be held high.

---

I actually agree with you about the tribalism, but that's not what this is about. I didn't make that statement as someone with a presupposed obsession with FFXIV, I said it as a former wow player myself that didn't want to see the same dynamics migrate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Penthea

The big boom in population from the WoW exodus began several months ago in the summer and we already saw congestion issues from that begin before autumn was full swing. If things were alright up until very recently I think it's safe to say that it's not only WoW players who are the source of your frustrations. Furthermore for years players from WoW have been coming to this game. I came from WoW during HW, as have many of my friends, and we did not try to do FF content like it's WoW.

Sure some WoW players do try to play as if it's still WoW and it often doesn't end well, but not all of them do. A lot of us have enough sense to know that we should approach a different game in a different way. I have encountered other players in the past with the "go go go" attitude that WoW is famous for but they had not even played WoW. Some had not even played mmorpgs. The attitude of rushing in head first without a second thought isn't unique to WoW players.

---

This I 100% agree with, and being a former WoW player myself I should have obviously taken that into consideration...I simply wasn't thinking clearly because I've been making the mistake of letting life stuff affect my gaming. I appreciate you being so thoughtful in maintaining the integrity of the community here because I love it here too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

I said it as a former wow player myself that didn't want to see the same dynamics migrate.

---

I got a real cool thing to tell you about the history of wall-to-wall pulls and why SE put roadblocks in every dungeon. (We used to pull much, much bigger..)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LisSquid

I got a real cool thing to tell you about the history of wall-to-wall pulls and why SE put roadblocks in every dungeon. (We used to pull much, much bigger..)

---

we also used to sleep mobs before the boss door so they reset when the door closed

The go, go, go attitude is way more common in FFXIV then wow. At least in wow they at one time had dungeons where crowd control was mandatory. This wall to wall pulls in mmorpgs are completely stupid and I blame the developers of the game not the community.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

This isn't world of warcraft. Stop treating dungeons like it is.

Edit for clarity: Almost every dungeon for the past couple weeks has been a complete mess of people with sprout icons trying to bumrush everything as if they are all immortal. I made the WoW reference because running dungeons in that game is honestly what it reminds me of, and not in a good way.

I apologize for directing my angst towards the WoW players, but where else should I direct it with how much worse it has gotten recently?

---

For years in FFXIV people have been telling me that the tank MUST chain pull all the way to the door of the boss.

When I'm tanking if I slow down even just enough to ensure I've got AoE threat on the mobs, the healer runs ahead and pulls the next 73 packs and purposefully wipes us just to punish me for locking down aggro... and that's been FFXIV since 2013.

How is this a WoW refugee issue?


I went back to WoW for the launch of Shadowbringers and stayed until just before 9.1 ...
- Chain pulling was only a thing in higher ranked M+ runs where it was PRESUMED that everybody knew the fights and knew their roles and classes well enough to sustain us to the boss. Even with this - only Demon Hunter tanks would facepull past trash mobs without getting threat (In all my time in WoW, I never once met a good DH tank. Weirdly I met a lot of great tanks who, as soon as they logged into their DH, put on their Leeroy Jenkins pants and proceeded to do everything badly...). All other tanks would use 1-2 AoEs to get threat as they ran through. And in any lower content people paced and took their time (largely because the people running lower content were also undergeared and not skilled enough for the higher M+s).

The only reason people chain pull in high rank M+ over in WoW is because they give you 23-seconds to do a full 42-boss dungeon and if you fail they downgrade your key, line you up outside Orgrimmar and make your toon wear a cone of shame, then give you a 73-day account suspension... Or so it feels sometimes... So you run that sucker as fast as you can or suffer your cone of shame for failure. As in... WoW actually punishes failure on those things... so you have to chain pull.

One does not simply post negative a thread about WoW players without being flamed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Conundrum

How 'bout you actually say what you mean and don't just act like a condescending jerk.

Great Community By The Way /s

---

The best of communities!

The difference here though is that we kill the pulls and don't start running with the last 2 mobs at half health. That's how tanks handled it in WOW back when I last played (WOTLK).

If a tank can handle the pull with the mitigation they have and skill they have, and the healer can keep them alive, wall to wall pulling has been the standard. When I tank, I ask at the start of the dungeon "How big do you want me to pull?".

One simple line sets the pace for the entire dungeon. The healer wants smaller pulls and is newer and less confident, I slowly ease them into bigger pulls to give them the confidence. By the end of the dungeon, 9 times out of 10 they are healing a wall to wall pull.

Now one thing I will disagree with that I saw mentioned, was someone saying the "Galaxy brained tank" taking a second or two to lock down aggro and then twitchy DPS running ahead and pulling instead. Curb your twitchyness, DPS. I'll pull it in a second. Sometimes Overpower's cone misses a mob from it's crash point for whatever reason, and you need to stop for a single second to AOE lock down and then keep going, especially when the second DPS of the group is pounding away at the train of mobs behind my running body. You're getting wall to wall pulls, stop being impatient. It's the difference of literally a few seconds to lock down.

Also, if it's a lower level dungeon *with a newer sprout that is genuinely 100% learning to play*, it is not "holding the group hostage" to go a little slower and break them in. I've heard that one before far too many times. Just because the norm is wall to wall, doesn't mean you throw the poor sprout instantly into the fire.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

The difference here though is that we kill the pulls and don't start running with the last 2 mobs at half health. That's how tanks handled it in WOW back when I last played (WOTLK).

---

THAT shit gets on my nerves and is how I know I'm running with a tank that hasn't retrained from WoW yet. Especially when they do it in a party with two casters for DPS.

Rushing isn't rly new, it has become the standard.

I am not particularly fond of it, I miss the days in WoW back in Vanill and TBC when Sheeping and Sapping was still a thing for example.
It felt cool to be doing that and to take it slower and when enemies felt more dangerous.
Even in FFXIV I actually do remember Sleep being used back in the day to CC large packs.

But it's not rly how MMO's work today, to some extent it's a change in mindset and attitudes but it's also because people are just better at MMO's nowadays.
Back in the day most people didn't even have a PC that could run the game properly they ran at like 15-20 fps and were clickers.

Nowadays everyone has a gaming PC and wants wall to wall pulls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I miss the days in WoW back in Vanill and TBC when Sheeping and Sapping was still a thing for example.
It felt cool to be doing that and to take it slower and when enemies felt more dangerous.

---

Sapping was fun in WoW as a twinked level 19 pvp Rogue. heh. All those poor squishies.

In EQ2 I was tank/healer but mained as Illusionist. I'd Mez (sleep) or root pretty much everything then feed them to the tank at a rate the party could handle while keeping the party buffed. Support classes like that are a lot of fun. There isn't much to sleep and no root in FFXIV, I sort of wish there was.

Wall to wall is just a race - kill them before the healer or tank falls over, there is no real deep strategy to it, not to the level one could achieve in an EQ2 run. But it is what it is, and helping ease sprouts into it is what I find most fun in this game.

I appreciate you have apologised.

But your follow up posts don't show that you have really conceded that you were wrong, just that you don't know who to blame now that people disagree with you. There is no one group to blame.

Players of this game have been running Sastasha and onwards with wall to wall pulling since very early on in this game. If new players (sprouts) have learnt this from anywhere its from the experienced players of the game. New player sprouts are not all WoW players. There are new players on console as well as PC/MAC. Players will be joining because of solid reviews, Steam stats and more.

Unfortunately, some of the sprouts might not truely be ready for pulls like this, they may not use their CDs well or they might overestimate themselves and/or their group. But none of this is new, it has always happened and I have played since 2.0 launch.

I have also played WoW since TBC and there is a heck of a lot of difference between pulling big in that game than in this game. A big part of is it AOE crowd control and I don't expect a tank from WoW to even attempt the same kind of pulls straight away, in this game without more experience.

There is also another type of player you could have come across, that is the type with no MMO experience, the ones who are used to playing games their own way and have been playing FFXIV as a solo experience since they first logged in. This type of player doesn't know any better unless you tell them. This type however, you likely wouldn't find in later game unless they boosted.

In all cases your best approach is to politely tell them that the pulls are too much, please pull X packs max. You will be surprised how accommodating players will be, at the end of the day a few extra minutes is nothing to players for a smooth run. And if they do not you can leave the party and blacklist that player.