Healers please

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Did anyone die?

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No, because they were all spamming their self healing skills and begging the PLDs to save them.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Something OP and a few others here seem to forget is how strong the regen healing is and how rare unavoidable raidwide damage is

As healers, our job is to keep the party alive for the next unavoidable bout of damage (topping off is only neccessary with doom or white hole) dish out our share of the damage, then fix the mistakes of the other players (top them up/rez)

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Exactly. I imagine the OP and a lot of people even in this thread have what I call "lifebar anxiety". Just because HP looks low doesn't mean you'll die to the next mechanic, the job of a healer is the keep people alive, not keep people at 100% at all-times.

Like WHM should use up asylum and lilies, the bell and everything else before Medica II is ever needed.

If anything Endwalker addressed this even better with bell because White Mage was always the 'weakest' healer at the beginning of fights.

The way optimized groups worked was they do let the SCH use the fairy and/or Whispering Dawn to regen heal beginning of fights over casting Medica II or Cure III. Or AST's Earthly Star would blow up and handle the healing. All the while the WHM builds up the lily bar.

Current the EX contents do not need any GCD heal, period. Regardless of the healer combo you have, there are enough ... no ... MORE than enough oGCD to keep the party up. If you are for any reason feel you have to cover for your co-healer, then that mean you are either overcompensating out of anxiety, or your co-healer is not pressing their oGCD. The DPS argument is completely irrelvant, you just have the case of bad healers one way or another.

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Originally Posted by LazyMemories

As a healer myself. I'm often go into extreme fights thinking other healers will heal and or aoe heal for stacked markers, but what I'm left with is they keep dpsing.

I know more damage the better but please if I wanted to solo heal I'll put a pf up and solo heal. I like to dps to. Not sure if this is a trend now but its almost every time I do a extreme now a healer doesn't want to heal.

Now I know whm brings the big heals with cure 3 and I could heal through it but I should expect some help.

I went in with my sage once and this whm never put up a medica 2 or cure 3 just kept dpsing away and I'm stuck doing all the healing.

So please I beg of you. do some aoe healing succor, medica 2 cure 3 if close, medica, prognosis ect.

Sorry about this rant just had to get it off my chest

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I had another healer (I was the second healer) in an alliance raid straight up tell me, if you need to heal in this raid you're bad. And then they literally did not heal a single time during even though people did still need healing. And I was just like.. people still take damage though? new players are still learning mechs though?? I don't understand the mentality of playing a healer and then refusing to heal and leaving it all to the other healer. yes, I get balance healing and dps but just not healing is toxic and if so why even play a healer.

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Originally Posted by LazyMemories

As a healer myself. I'm often go into extreme fights thinking other healers will heal and or aoe heal for stacked markers, but what I'm left with is they keep dpsing.

I know more damage the better but please if I wanted to solo heal I'll put a pf up and solo heal. I like to dps to. Not sure if this is a trend now but its almost every time I do a extreme now a healer doesn't want to heal.

Now I know whm brings the big heals with cure 3 and I could heal through it but I should expect some help.

I went in with my sage once and this whm never put up a medica 2 or cure 3 just kept dpsing away and I'm stuck doing all the healing.

So please I beg of you. do some aoe healing succor, medica 2 cure 3 if close, medica, prognosis ect.

Sorry about this rant just had to get it off my chest

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The WHM probably didn't use Medica 2 because an Afflatus Rapture is good enough or even add an Asylum.

Just like a decent SCH doesn't need Succor much when Sacred Soil / Indom / Whispering Dawn can cover most anything especially if the Indom has Recitation before it.

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Originally Posted by Quintessa

No, because they were all spamming their self healing skills and begging the PLDs to save them.

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If they were slamming their self heals then they were doing it right. Those self heals don't exist to be ignored. Especially the melee with Bloodbath. If they are halfway decent, Bloodbath can get them to full easily.

I wish there were more "floor is lava" mechanics where the raid takes periodic damage for either the entire fight or several minutes straight just to give healers something to do besides DPS and weave their big oGCD heal for everything.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

I usually leave my psychic shoes at home when I go into raids so if you have an easy way to figure out if the other healer has a plan, or even intends to heal, that would be wonderful. please educate us on this ability

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Oh man this reminds me of a really weird week pugging Omega savage learning parties in PF back in SB. I main sch, among the pugs was a healer. They did zero healing and we wiped because of it, not surprising because we were a learning party. When we asked why they didn't heal they said "you have a sch they should solo heal". Pugged again later that week. Got a different healer who did zero dps and began to flame me in chat for healing even though it was clear they couldn't handle it on their own. Their reasoning was "you're the sch so you do the dps". These two incidents happened in the exact same fight lol. Which was o7s in case anyone is wondering.

Neither healer told us they were going to entirely disregard part of their kit during combat. They both expected completely opposite playstyles from me and were both surprised that I didn't know exactly what they intended to do.

Healers are supposed to heal and dps. They have buttons for both. If you're only going to fulfil one part of your role you should inform the party before you even pull. No one is psychic. And if it's a learning party you honestly should expect to use more than one part of your kit. I would even go as far as to say the same for pugs because pugs are lottery. You have no idea how good they will be.

Yes yes efficiency and all that but it's not really efficient to not inform your team that you refuse to heal or dps and expect them to just magically play perfectly around it from the moment you pull.

When I started to level a WHM I was just about to enter into a duty with two healers and I asked in FC chat - what's the deal with two healers like does one heal the main tank and the others the dps or what. The best reply I got was "that's what party chat is for - communicate never assume"

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Originally Posted by RecoveryPotion

I had another healer (I was the second healer) in an alliance raid straight up tell me, if you need to heal in this raid you're bad. And then they literally did not heal a single time during even though people did still need healing. And I was just like.. people still take damage though? new players are still learning mechs though?? I don't understand the mentality of playing a healer and then refusing to heal and leaving it all to the other healer. yes, I get balance healing and dps but just not healing is toxic and if so why even play a healer.

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OP is talking about non-practice extreme party & is in NA data center. When joining PF that is not for progging, there are certain degree of competency expected from everybody joining said PF: new, learning players should not even be there.

Meanwhile alliance raids or basically any DF contents is an entirely different mixed bag. These two occasions cannot be compared & it’s okay to be more cautious… to certain extent as well because surprise(?!), depending on which raid there will also be certain degree of expectation. I.e. I’m absolutely not going to go out my way to heal that MCH who really love to fire away from Narnia in Ivalice Raids. They have 70 levels worth of gameplay to learn that they should never wander too far away from their healer for extended time. I’m also not going to keep that SAM with 4+ vuln stacks alive because they won’t bother to move out of bad stuff, they have more than enough gameplay time to know that orange/red markers are not areas they should be standing in. If 70 levels did not teach them any of this then honestly I don’t know what else besides untimely deaths will.

Starting to see healers not heal at all. Last roulette did both healers let the tanks died and half the dps.

I suggest playing green dps game of chicken.... see who breaks first to heal.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I suggest playing green dps game of chicken.... see who breaks first to heal.

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Most likely it will be me lol

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Originally Posted by LazyMemories

Most likely it will be me lol

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Honestly, I've found the only way to get the people you are referring to to actually heal, is to force them to realize you will not carry them. Unfortunately this impacts the party as a whole, which is unfortunate.

Carry ? Ufff...
I am honest here but i heal in a Static and my Friend (healer since ARR for Savage) and myself (healer since SB) heal both current EX only with OGCD's. So i am not sure what "the emergency" or "danger" is you talking about.

I am SGE and my frined is WHM. Hardcasting healing is not good. The actual situation of raiding is "More Damage = better" that means as long there is not a demand for "fully heal" somebody i will keep them around 50 % to 60 %. But most of the time we have enough time so the HoT's do the job.
I am not aware of what problem you are talking here or what mech occurs that i am missing.

Sure you can say "you are in a static and your group plays like chads" but sadly we are nothing special and mess up more than we like and even then its really rare that we need GCD healing.

Kind of ironic that they reduced healer rotation complexity to stop people from tunnel visioning on their damage rotation and ignoring healing, yet it's still an issue where people mash their 1 button and god forbid the co-healer dies and things descend into anarchy because they were the only one who was bothering to heal, and they're too busy spamming their attack spell to spare a gcd for the person busy doing the job of 2 people

I wouldn't say these types of healers are super common, but if tanks are expected to hold aggro with no exceptions then healers should be expected to contribute some source of healing when needed, gcd or not

Damage hits in very scripted spots then not again for a long time. You don't need to heal everyone to 100% HP ASAP. This is something a lot of people don't seem to understand about healing. A good healer is only healing exactly as much as is required, and using a gcd heal when your ogcds will cover it is wasting those free tools. It's free healing, why would you waste it?

When you're new to a fight or doing prog with a group, it makes sense to be a little aggressive with heals as people are going to be taking vulns and you don't know where the aoes are, but once you do, you shouldn't be doing that anymore. Also, if melees want to eat vulns instead of snapshotting dodges, let them pop their wind/blood and heal themselves. The only person who should be consistently doing that is a tank because a tank basically can't die on any of the content that's in EW right now, even with 3-4 vulns.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Kind of ironic that they reduced healer rotation complexity to stop people from tunnel visioning on their damage rotation and ignoring healing, yet it's still an issue

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honestly, all the more proof that reducing healer rotation to 1 button was completely pointless, solving nothing and only bringing grief to those who actually enjoyed playing healers.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

the co-healer dies and things descend into anarchy because they were the only one who was bothering to heal, and they're too busy spamming their attack spell to spare a gcd for the person busy doing the job of 2 people

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also this boogeyman healer that never heals............. i wonder just how well people can read the situation? is the cohealer really the one "doing all the healing" or is it someone who spams succor or medica at the smallest boobo? i have runs of zodiark with a healing percentile of 0 and i still have like 70% overheal because they cant fathom waiting 10 seconds for earthly star to detonate. the only time ive ever truly had the kind of cohealer that never heals is in ultimate statics, and its funnily always a whm without exception because well, whm has 0 free heals. in contrast, almost everyone i encounter on pf wont let me heal even when i want to.

I like healing and dps and only heal when necessary.

I've personally found myself on both sides of this at various times. I remember many times my SCH was essentially forced into main healing for groups back when things like Dun Scaith and Alexander were new for WHMs that seemed to outright refuse to heal (and would sometimes make it known that they didn't really want to heal).

On the other hand, I've increasingly found myself doing less and less healing with newer content (at least when I bother to play an actual healer job and not just carry a bunch of DPS through stuff as RDM/PLD). I think it says something about the healing requirements when you don't need an actual healer for most dungeons, and there's even proof of a current EX trial being beat without proper healers. When I take RDM in to fill in for the healer slot in a full 4-man FC dungeon run, I feel like that kind of gameplay is how healing should be for this game. It's an interesting, though easy, DPS rotation, but importantly one that can be interrupted at almost any point to toss out any needed vercures/verraises. All RDM probably needs is esuna and maybe vermedica to pass healing checks that pretty much require those.

As many have pointed out, the healing requirements are mostly a joke. Even in the highest tier content, the damage is almost completely scripted and unexpected damage is often lethal anyway (even if only because DPS downtime means hitting enrage). It's pretty pointless to throw something out like a Medica II only to see your co-healer decide regen isn't fast enough and they deploy half their arsenal of AoE heals to top everyone off.

I doubt upping healing requirements would do much good. If they go too far, the minimum gear won't generally cut it for most players causing a larger number of wipes due to poor healer gameplay (I'm doubtful that an increase in healing difficulty would attract more players than it would scare away). Additionally, since so much content allows you to overgear it, sometimes by huge margins (Labyrinth of the Ancients, Void Arc, Praetorium, Cape Westwind, etc.), you'll likely still end up with bored end-game healers since the better gear negates the increased difficulty.

If I get the feeling that the other healer is just going to go nuts in passing out the heals, I'll just go about focusing almost exclusively on DPSing to try to make up for their lack of DPS. I'll keep an eye out on the overall situation and be ready to heal if things start to get hairy.

Sometimes this strategy even pans out for the best if the co healer happens to be not only quick on the draw, but actually know what they're doing to the point where we largely both get to maximize DPS uptime.

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Originally Posted by Averax

Some people hear "this fight doesn't need healing" from the rest of the community and then just decide to shut off healthbars, it seems.

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THIS ! They said that to a healer for a TRIAL I tried to say - no that is stupid, but they didn't listen to my mi'qote toon of course. So we went in - wiped in 10 seconds or so, and they blamed the TANK. lol Telling a healer not to heal is beyond dumb. If you want to prove something go lift weights or something. Bake a cake. Don't try to do dungeons and trials without heals. Just no.

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Originally Posted by Serenitey

Don't try to do dungeons and trials without heals. Just no.

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Sure, you don't want to throw just anyone into that type of gameplay, but I'm skilled enough to cover healing on either my PLD or RDM in many dungeons. When I do get the chance for a full (or heck, 3 man) dungeon run with FC members, I often convince them we don't need a proper healer. The initial reactions are funny, but we end up having a blast as mobs and bosses just melt under the pressure of 3x DPS + Tank in a dungeon. Plus, budgeting and timing heals/MP becomes much more critical in those scenarios which makes things interesting for me, and I have to adapt to mechanics that were designed with a proper healer in mind. It's great fun to break away from the boring script and seeing just what we can get away with, but I know that kind of pressure isn't fun for everyone.

After reading what I have on WAR lately, though, I'm certainly going to have to give it a try once SE fixes the stupid audio issues. I just can't bring myself to log in most of the time because playing with sound muted is a huge downer.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

also this boogeyman healer that never heals............. i wonder just how well people can read the situation? is the cohealer really the one "doing all the healing" or is it someone who spams succor or medica at the smallest boobo? i have runs of zodiark with a healing percentile of 0 and i still have like 70% overheal because they cant fathom waiting 10 seconds for earthly star to detonate. the only time ive ever truly had the kind of cohealer that never heals is in ultimate statics, and its funnily always a whm without exception because well, whm has 0 free heals. in contrast, almost everyone i encounter on pf wont let me heal even when i want to.

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Can't really call them a boogeyman considering they still exist, and I'm not referring to the "dying to a raidwide 3 seconds after after standing in the ouch" kind of a situation, I'm talking like more of a "Raidwide is being cast, party is 30%, everyone is hitting their self heals, and healer is still casting glare" type of healer

People who spam gcd heals are way more common than people who never heal, but both are still types of bad play and just because one is more common shouldn't mean that the other is any worse, not that I'm accusing you of saying that, mind you.

You're failing to strike the right balance either way, and by spamming damage spells you're basically going lazy in the other direction (See: not using regens or mapping out ogcd heals to avoid messing up your 1 button dps rotation)

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Can't really call them a boogeyman considering they still exist, and I'm not referring to the "dying to a raidwide 3 seconds after after standing in the ouch" kind of a situation, I'm talking like more of a "Raidwide is being cast, party is 30%, everyone is hitting their self heals, and healer is still casting glare" type of healer

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That's not really because of DPS, that's just being bad. It has been mentioned many times healer have more than enough tool currently to deal with these kind of thing. Top off the party and healing and DPSing are not mutual exclusive, even within the same GCD.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

That's not really because of DPS, that's just being bad. It has been mentioned many times healer have more than enough tool currently to deal with these kind of thing. Top off the party and healing and DPSing are not mutual exclusive, even within the same GCD.

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I literally just called it playing badly

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Top off the party and healing and DPSing are not mutual exclusive, even within the same GCD.

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A problem is some healers think they are. Some entirely refuse to heal or entirely refuse to dps. It's a healer's job to do both. They have buttons for both.

And frankly I find the ones who refuse to heal simply because there is another healer to be lazy. They're pressing one button 99% of the time while they expect the other healer to be strategic with a wide range of abilities. By refusing to heal in a fight with a lot of damage they're literally demanding to get carried.

That is not to say that I think refusing to dps is any good. I am just quite tired of people romanticising healers who don't heal in high damage fights without thinking of the position that puts the other healer in, especially if they didn't even agree to it.

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Originally Posted by LazyMemories

prognosis ect.

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Never. Not even once. If you're grouped with a sage and they're hard casting heals, you're in more trouble than you know. Especially in the two current extremes.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Can't really call them a boogeyman considering they still exist, and I'm not referring to the "dying to a raidwide 3 seconds after after standing in the ouch" kind of a situation, I'm talking like more of a "Raidwide is being cast, party is 30%, everyone is hitting their self heals, and healer is still casting glare" type of healer

People who spam gcd heals are way more common than people who never heal, but both are still types of bad play and just because one is more common shouldn't mean that the other is any worse, not that I'm accusing you of saying that, mind you.

You're failing to strike the right balance either way, and by spamming damage spells you're basically going lazy in the other direction (See: not using regens or mapping out ogcd heals to avoid messing up your 1 button dps rotation)

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i guess i understand your point. its honestly really hard to truly know how real this problem is because well... you dont clear if you wipe, so you cant really have any data on that. most of it seems anecdotal to me but maybe thats because i usually play healer and not dps.

though with how much people bring up glare, id reckon its more of the same issue whm has had since forever: the healy healer with the highest healing opportunity cost. i bet that if assize had 2 charges and misery was dps neutral then these complaints would be virtually gone.

Please stop calling yourself a healer "main" if you do not know how to properly manage healthbars, especially with a co healer. I don't know how often you ran EX1, but if you still did not understand how the first minute of the fight works healwise, you shouldn't join any farm groups and practice more.

There's two types of pug healers, 11111 spammers that don't realize they have ogcd heals, and medica II spammers that don't realize they have ogcd heals.

I am continuously amused by the should healers dps question that comes up. I don't know if this a preconception from WoW or other games where healers are expected to not dps at all or what exactly; but in this game healers are expect to do both.

In the ARR days we had cleric stance which was the healers dps mode. People took this to mean that healers should only dps in certain spaces. some people would do a stance dance to weave in the occasional stone or bio but for the most part a lot of healers couldn't/wouldn't dps.

but eventually clerics stance is removed and healers are now allowed and even encouraged to do dps, whm even gets a big blood lily. you even get some spells that do both! look at assize and stellar explosion.

Now we even get a new healer with damage spells that add a passive heal. What is not clear??


but to get to the immediate issue at hand of a co healer not pulling their weight. I'd suggest to force them by healing less and dpsing more. I know it sounds counter intuitive but if you keep them alive and just not at full it may encourage them to press some of their own buttons, not to mention the tank's or dps' mitigation buttons.

Have faith that the other party members will put their weight. And if they don't let them die once or twice. It's the only way they'll learn.

It's pretty clear the 'healers are actually dps!' thing that content creators and this forum push has been very effective. It's become very noticeable since EW launch that healers think they're DPS, and having groups for all sorts of content where they're attacking the boss with two people dead and the rest of the party at quarter health is becoming the norm.

So I guess good job content creators- at least each wipe gives them more time to parse.

look I'll put down asluym and maybe medica 2 before I start holy spamming. i'll weave in assize and tetra as needed. If you died its because you stood in the bad. A quarter health is fine. the regens will handle it.

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

It's pretty clear the 'healers are actually dps!' thing that content creators and this forum push has been very effective. It's become very noticeable since EW launch that healers think they're DPS, and having groups for all sorts of content where they're attacking the boss with two people dead and the rest of the party at quarter health is becoming the norm.

So I guess good job content creators- at least each wipe gives them more time to parse.

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Having to rely on gcd healing is usually the sign of a healer not using their resources correctly or just straight up not understanding them at all.

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

It's pretty clear the 'healers are actually dps!' thing that content creators and this forum push has been very effective. It's become very noticeable since EW launch that healers think they're DPS, and having groups for all sorts of content where they're attacking the boss with two people dead and the rest of the party at quarter health is becoming the norm.

So I guess good job content creators- at least each wipe gives them more time to parse.

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You're less likely to die from a lack of healing than you are from eating 1 or 2 vuln snacks to be honest. Blaming your failures on healers for, Gods above, using their 2-3 dps spells instead of spamming their cure 1s and medica 2s like good little healbots isn't a good look.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

You're less likely to die from a lack of healing than you are from eating 1 or 2 vuln snacks to be honest. Blaming your failures on healers for, Gods above, using their 2-3 dps spells instead of spamming their cure 1s and medica 2s like good little healbots isn't a good look.

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Tbf, both situations can happen. I've died on my PLD quite a few times in synched content, coming out of Hallowed Ground because the healer wouldn't heal me at all.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Tbf, both situations can happen. I've died on my PLD quite a few times in synched content, coming out of Hallowed Ground because the healer wouldn't heal me at all.

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Not saying it can't happen, just saying that you're more likely to get healers that'll cure bomb you the instant you drop below 100% than the opposite. Those kind of healers are also usually the type to panic in actual "ah crap" situations, the ones who'll blow through all of their cooldowns in record time only to realize they no longer have any abilities to deal with it. On the other end of the curebot spectrum, you have the kind that would rather run dry on mp from spamming aoe heals than even glance at their offglobal abilities.

Personally, I'd rather deal with a dps happy healer that doesn't quite know their limits than a healer that doesn't even attempt to go out of their comfort zone and opts to spam the very first heal they've learned because "it worked before" and saves all their off globals for "emergencies".

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

You're less likely to die from a lack of healing than you are from eating 1 or 2 vuln snacks to be honest. Blaming your failures on healers for, Gods above, using their 2-3 dps spells instead of spamming their cure 1s and medica 2s like good little healbots isn't a good look.

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Most fights have zone wide aoe damage nowadays- it's a far slower death yes than taking a double avoidable for twice your health... but I've had more than a few wipes recently where the raid's low health and one of those unavoidable is about to go out while the healer is spamming dps.

It's very noticeable when the team's within health range of dying to the next unavoidable, and the healer's at 80% mana, spamming dps, then half the team's dead.

Nobody's blaming healers for dpsing- but if they're dpsing while the team wipes, I think it's pretty fair. This is the only mmo community where healers will let people die so they can squeeze out damage and people think that's fine.

EW normal raid two for example- the boss does frequent zonewide damage that each do more than half your health damage even with no vuln stacks, and while that may be an extreme example, it's not uncommon for heavy hitting unavoidable damage to go out. I'd rather have encounters finish a bit slower with less healer dps rather than wipe over and over even while people are doing mechanics correctly.

... and frankly, even if people do mess up and take a vuln stack every once in a while, deciding not to heal those people to focus on spamming dps instead is a really bad habit that content creators have fostered in the ffxiv community.

if you're dying to predictable telegraphed raidwides because of low hp that is the healers fault 100%. Healers should be dpsing but not at any cost.

if you're dying to raidwides at ~75% hp because you had 2 vuln stacks thats on you. It's not a bad habit, dps need to git gud too sometimes. pop that second wind folks.

it's team game everyone has a a part to play and don't expect your healers to overcompensate for other's inability to stand out of the bright orange circles.

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Originally Posted by OranKells

if you're dying to predictable telegraphed raidwides because of low hp that is the healers fault 100%. Healers should be dpsing but not at any cost.

if you're dying to raidwides at ~75% hp because you had 2 vuln stacks thats on you. It's not a bad habit, dps need to git gud too sometimes. pop that second wind folks.

it's team game everyone has a a part to play and don't expect your healers to overcompensate for other's inability to stand out of the bright orange circles.

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Take hits responsibly but dont forget that predictable raidwides should also be mitigated and there are many tools for that between all 8 party members.

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Originally Posted by OranKells

if you're dying to predictable telegraphed raidwides because of low hp that is the healers fault 100%. Healers should be dpsing but not at any cost.

if you're dying to raidwides at ~75% hp because you had 2 vuln stacks thats on you. It's not a bad habit, dps need to git gud too sometimes. pop that second wind folks.

it's team game everyone has a a part to play and don't expect your healers to overcompensate for other's inability to stand out of the bright orange circles.

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Letting the team wipe when you could prevent it by healing is... good team play?

This is what I'm talking about, people actually think this in this community.