Our Azem - A secret plan? (Slight EW Spoilers)

If the rejoining is considered genocide, despite the souls just being funneled back together, then the sundering is genocide. If your justification for her self admitted cruel, awful, unforgivable act is that the "souls are okay" then it's better to put your hypocrisy to rest.

On to the actual purpose of the thread; I'm of the opinion that we will become a "G'raha" like character to the people of the unsundered past. We have three confirmed time travel consequences existing in tandem. Time loops always closing one way or another, timeline convergence and the creation of entirely new timelines whilst old timelines continue on, making G'raha's assumption that he "Changed the future" wrong, because that original timeline still exists.

Perhaps Azem stayed out of Pandaemonium and left it to .... us? themself? knowing somehow that it will create a new timeline where all our loved ones can live on, safe. If Pandaemonium truly is an amplifier for Meteion's song, since we see that Terminus beasts roar and scream and terrify people with noise first to turn them before killing what isn't afraid. Both in Shadowbringers and Endwalker Hades has made the distinction that what triggered their creation magicks to spiral out of control was a noise from inside the planet. The aether of Etheirys is too dense for her song to affect the people, meaning their souls are off limits to her and the effects of becoming a Terminus beast. (Absolute vanishing of Aether). Remember, the second final days wasn't noticed or pinpointed as being caused by a sound, it just happened.

If a new timeline is created, I assume a handwave explanation of "Your link to the source and your timeline is crazy strong because Dynamis" can be used.

venat sundered the ancients because they were turning into a suicide cult that would've just kept sacrificing more and more of themselves in the vain hope that zodiark would undo the final days completely, and because a decreased aetherial density was something we needed in order to actually defeat meteion instead of just stalling our inevitable doom

also how is it genocide if you're literally making more people lmoa

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Originally Posted by Starblessed

On to the actual purpose of the thread; I'm of the opinion that we will become a "G'raha" like character to the people of the unsundered past. We have three confirmed time travel consequences existing in tandem. Time loops always closing one way or another, timeline convergence and the creation of entirely new timelines whilst old timelines continue on, making G'raha's assumption that he "Changed the future" wrong, because that original timeline still exists.

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"Timeline convergence" isn't a separate thing, it's just marking that the time loop we started by travelling back in time to Elpis is now "closed" and everything initiated by it is resolved.

And, at least in the way that G'raha travelled back in time, I don't believe there's any way back to your original timeline if you cause it to change and split. It's possible that Elidibus's spell is something different, but he is still using the Crystal Tower to facilitate it so it's a bit of a mystery.

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Originally Posted by Starblessed

If the rejoining is considered genocide, despite the souls just being funneled back together, then the sundering is genocide. If your justification for her self admitted cruel, awful, unforgivable act is that the "souls are okay" then it's better to put your hypocrisy to rest.

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I would argue against that. Look at how different the lives between Ardbert and the WoL are essentially, if you killed Ardbert (before he willingly fused) to force him into the WoL's soul, you have in fact committed murder due to a lack of consent and the fact that despite the souls being the same, they are not the same person, having different lives, friends, family, etc. While the Sundering was done with a lack of consent, it didn't kill anybody (as they all have the same personalities), it merely divided their souls and essentially made copies of them on copies of the world, funneling them into self contained reincarnation cycles.

However...that does bring one thing into play, something that leads into the main focus of this thread. The Sundered life right after the Sundering would still have memories of the Final Days and Zodiark, even divided. Yet somehow not a single one of them seemed to remember Zodiark (inferring this), nor was his name known for the longest to anybody but the Ascians. Considering how everybody forgot the WoL during the 5 year time skip after the fall of Dalamud, that means somehow people's memories were wiped, in both cases. The question then becomes, who did it? While we could say Hydaelyn, we saw nothing that could hint at her having power over people's memories. Kairos as we know had the power to wipe memories, and makes me wonder...was Azem's plan to get Kairos and use it somehow? And if so, does its recent usage mean it's in possession of somebody associated with Hydaelyn, like The Twelve?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

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There's a clear difference between the time loop caused by Alexander and Mide, with Travanchet giving her the horn and making her wish to always be with her partner. It's a slight(?) difference, but the events of Alexander's time loop are pre-ordained and always turn out the same way. Venat makes a distinction that what's happening with us is different. This can also be extrapolated due to the vastly different time line G'raha comes from where the Final Days do not occur, because Zodiark isn't killed and his actual protection isn't abolished. Time loops are events that always happen, and as we see without a shadow of a doubt, the second final days is not a guaranteed event.

And yeah, but G'raha isn't us, he's not special in the way that we are. Now that Dynamis is an established power source, stronger than Aether, it's opened up a lot of possibilities for the writing team to get crazy and have a reason for stronger threats to pop up since everything so far has been Aether based. And with Zenos apparently out of the picture now, there's no one who can stand up to us. There's also the fact that, as with Encyclopedia Eorzea, not everything written or talked about is truth and fact. Knowledge is subjective on a great many topics, G'raha succeeded with the Ironworks of the original timeline in going one way, but never tried / had the means to try to get back.

Because what we do know is that he thinks he changed the future, but he didn't. What we think is fact, is not, because of what we read about in the Tales proving as such. Sadly there's not a lot we can work with currently, but I'm looking forward to the future of what they have in store.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

However...that does bring one thing into play, something that leads into the main focus of this thread. The Sundered life right after the Sundering would still have memories of the Final Days and Zodiark, even divided. Yet somehow not a single one of them seemed to remember Zodiark (inferring this), nor was his name known for the longest to anybody but the Ascians. Considering how everybody forgot the WoL during the 5 year time skip after the fall of Dalamud, that means somehow people's memories were wiped, in both cases. The question then becomes, who did it? While we could say Hydaelyn, we saw nothing that could hint at her having power over people's memories. Kairos as we know had the power to wipe memories, and makes me wonder...was Azem's plan to get Kairos and use it somehow? And if so, does its recent usage mean it's in possession of somebody associated with Hydaelyn, like The Twelve?

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This is a pretty interesting notion. Azem might have been looking for something like this. We’re gonna need some hand waves for memeory at some point.

I very suspicious of the Athena storyline. Something tells me we’re gonna enter Heart Of Sabik territory with that. It would be funny if an old chestnut like that was retconned to be part of Azem’s/Azem’s friends plan.

I’m definitely digging the idea that we might just be Azem. We’re more than halfway there already. We still got plenty of ways to time travel in the story.

After the raid scenes I believe that Venat told Azem about us and maybe even gave them all the information. Maybe they did not come to Venats side because they knew that the sundered life would need someone to help them through it all so bascially my head canon right now is, that Azem simply stayed true to their nature and continued to help as many as they could after the sundering, maybe even becoming the first WoL.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

They definetely do all think you're just Azem's familiar and not even a 'real' lifeform (most are rather genial towards you in a caring if slightly condescending way - even Hythlodaeus and Emet had this view of you until Venat realized the truth).

This even goes as far in a few instances that you're considered actually little more than a semi-intelligent object that a couple of the researchers there even muse the possibility of asking Azem if they can 'borrow' you for an undisclosed amount of time to study you, underlining the massive racial superiority complex the Ancients had, which is really what caused the whole mess with the Final Days in the first place when you think about it.

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A minor nitpick here:
Due to the game tending to use British English meaning and idioms, "borrow" doesn't necessarily have negative connotations or imply they see you as an object, it's fairly common here to ask to borrow a person and it just means "can I use your skills/knowledge/perspective/time/unique qualities for a while?"

For example, if someone needed me to do a task that I am needed for, it wouldn't be uncommon for them to ask my boss "Hey can I borrow Pentacus for a job?", or for a doctor to say "We'll need to borrow you in a few weeks to run some blood tests", or someone asking me some advice to say "Can I borrow you for a moment?"

Essentially, they're just letting you know that they may ask Azem if they can take you away from your day to day duties as a Familiar at some point in the future so they can run some tests on you, and rather than an insult, is intended as a courtesy because they respect your time and are letting you know in advance that they may need you rather than just unexpectedly telling you.

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Originally Posted by Pentacus

A minor nitpick here:
Due to the game tending to use British English meaning and idioms, "borrow" doesn't necessarily have negative connotations or imply they see you as an object, it's fairly common here to ask to borrow a person and it just means "can I use your skills/knowledge/perspective/time/unique qualities for a while?"

For example, if someone needed me to do a task that I am needed for, it wouldn't be uncommon for them to ask my boss "Hey can I borrow Pentacus for a job?", or for a doctor to say "We'll need to borrow you in a few weeks to run some blood tests", or someone asking me some advice to say "Can I borrow you for a moment?"

Essentially, they're just letting you know that they may ask Azem if they can take you away from your day to day duties as a Familiar at some point in the future so they can run some tests on you, and rather than an insult, is intended as a courtesy because they respect your time and are letting you know in advance that they may need you rather than just unexpectedly telling you.

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"Borrow" in this context doesn't have negative connotations in American English either. Just yesterday someone at my job asked to "borrow" me so I could help them with something.

Also in several cases in Elpis, the reason they think you're Azem's familiar is because you're telling them you're Azem's familiar(you actually have to option to say this directly to Themis at the start of Pandaemonium) because Hythlodaeus and Emet-Selch suggested that to you to avoid unnecessary suspicion. And the races that exist in the modern world didn't exist during the time of Elpis so in a lot of cases the ancients are less being racist and more just completely confused as to what they're looking at.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

After the raid scenes I believe that Venat told Azem about us and maybe even gave them all the information. Maybe they did not come to Venats side because they knew that the sundered life would need someone to help them through it all so bascially my head canon right now is, that Azem simply stayed true to their nature and continued to help as many as they could after the sundering, maybe even becoming the first WoL.

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But wasn’t Azem sundered by Venat, and thus no longer that Azem? That’s how our characters exist, and they have no memory of their life as Azem.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Meteion attacked the planet with her 'song of oblivion' and as a result said 'song' rang out from the planet itself.

It seems pretty obvious that the sound was a result of Meteion's actions, I at least can't say I ever got the impression the two things were unrelated.

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Dynamis is an invisible, intangible, uninteractable energy. Meteion's flood of Dynamis was clearly not heard on it's way from space, else it would have been heard as coming from the sky. And we have no reason for why it would suddenly just become audible afterwards either. So even if Meteion caused whatever made the Sound to make it, it wasn't she herself that created it.

I wonder if the Scream from within the planet was simply a creation being corrupted and well, screaming. If i recall there was a scream heard within Rads-at-han as well.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Meteion's flood of Dynamis was clearly not heard on it's way from space, else it would have been heard as coming from the sky.

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We can't say that for sure. Maybe it's undetectable in the sky but reacts with the ground, or something.

It's possible that the Sound is caused by something else, but not impossible that Meteion's song caused it.

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

I wonder if the Scream from within the planet was simply a creation being corrupted and well, screaming. If i recall there was a scream heard within Rads-at-han as well.

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Yeah each time they turned into a Terminus Beast in the Areas it was coupled by a scream. Which after wards the skies went red and the meteor shower appeared.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

It's possible that the Sound is caused by something else, but not impossible that Meteion's song caused it.

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I'm not saying that Meteion didn't cause it, I'm saying that she caused whatever made it to make it.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

Dynamis is an invisible, intangible, uninteractable energy. Meteion's flood of Dynamis was clearly not heard on it's way from space, else it would have been heard as coming from the sky. And we have no reason for why it would suddenly just become audible afterwards either. So even if Meteion caused whatever made the Sound to make it, it wasn't she herself that created it.

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If I hit a cymbal it's the cymbal that makes the noise, not the stick that rushed towards it. There is no real reason to believe we should hear the sound from above rather than below.

If we wanted to get technical sound doesn't travel through space. Not that we should expect FFXIV to always follow real world physics.

Perhaps the "cry that issued forth from the earth" is the actual mystery we're supposed to be focusing on for the next storyline.

It could have a relation to the premonition I noticed in this thread; moreso because there is one thing that happened during the original Final Days that we did not see, which was the land itself turning on us. The desolation wrought by whatever is mentioned in the prophecy sounds weirdly similar, so perhaps another imbalance in the natural order remains to be corrected before Etheriys is truly safe, and perhaps that is what Azem was seeking to learn the truth of, viewing it as the bigger crisis then the Zodiark/Hydaelyn conflict.

The changes in the aetheric flows wrought by Zodiark may have had the side effect of quelling whatever this other potential entity may have been, but now that the flows have normalized and the Final Days returned briefly, its awakening as mentioned in the prophecy has resumed.

I'm going to assume the Sound being 'from the planet' is a misattribution from the Ancients having incomplete knowledge of what was actually going on; possibly written this way on purpose as a red herring, or backfilled because the writers didn't have Meteion fleshed out as the cause of the Sound when they did 5.0. This part of the story is clearly finished and it would feel way too cheap to have an '"Actually, there was a second sound" or "It wasn't Meteion, it was this" in a side-story like Pandaemonium.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

If we wanted to get technical sound doesn't travel through space. Not that we should expect FFXIV to always follow real world physics.

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If we wanted to get technical, and assuming dynamis does carry through space, we would probably be dealing with a "sound from the edge of the universe" for years after its source was cut off. It's best to deliberately not apply scientific logic to it.

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

EW leaned real heavy into Venat’s decision to sunder the star - but we know from past lore that (our) Azem wasn’t keen on either Hydaelyn or Zodiark.

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We actually don't know that. All we know is that Azem left the Convocation prior to Zodiark's summoning and did not respond to overtures from Venat's followers. Azem's actual thoughts and feelings about either were not shared with us. We've been assuming they didn't approve based on what we were told in Shadowbringers.

"Secret" long term plans did not seem to be part of Azem's character from the things we've been told. Impulsive responses, with a mischievous flair, were.

I suspect Venat approached Azem privately and spilled the beans about our visit. Azem may have decided to play a waiting game to see if what we had told her came to pass. When it did, Azem may have chosen to step aside and trust in the future self to handle things at the right time.

As for our WoL becoming Azem of the past, not going to happen. Our soul isn't dense enough, nor do we share all of the talents that Azem had.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

We actually don't know that. All we know is that Azem left the Convocation prior to Zodiark's summoning and did not respond to overtures from Venat's followers. Azem's actual thoughts and feelings about either were not shared with us. We've been assuming they didn't approve based on what we were told in Shadowbringers.

"Secret" long term plans did not seem to be part of Azem's character from the things we've been told. Impulsive responses, with a mischievous flair, were.

I suspect Venat approached Azem privately and spilled the beans about our visit. Azem may have decided to play a waiting game to see if what we had told her came to pass. When it did, Azem may have chosen to step aside and trust in the future self to handle things at the right time.

As for our WoL becoming Azem of the past, not going to happen. Our soul isn't dense enough, nor do we share all of the talents that Azem had.

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I suppose it’s true that we don’t know their specific feelings - but we do know they didn’t go along with either plan. I’d put forward that Azem’s situation was one similar to the one our character finds themself in at the Forum. We/Azem probably would prefer the planet and the people on it to be saved - rather than be sacrificed for a greater good.

Azem, I agree, might not make secret plans - (although you’re assuming they do and made exactly that with Venat) - but if Azem had Scion-parallel friends, I bet they had plans, and that those plans involved Azem.

As far Azem being our WOL through some kind of time loop - I think it’s entirely possible. We may even need to merge with our few remaining sundered selves in order to travel back in time again. Something, something about being soul-dense enough to evade dynamis currents handwave handwave handwave (with a chance to visit a few other shards).

Thinking on this a little more. Maybe when/if we meet or learn more about our Azem - it will be used as a point of contrast. EW put so much emphasis on saving our friends and keeping hope alive - and surely if we’re so much like Azem, than Azem had their own band of Scions/Friends that they wanted to see stay alive.

Maybe we find out that Azem went off to fight something, because that’s how they solved everything - and by fighting they lost both their life, and the life of their friends when Venat sundered the star…

We’re supposed to learn, perhaps, from Azem’s choices, that going off to fight everything doesn’t always solve the problem.

I also wonder if perhaps Azem is responsible for our trio of Unsundered surviving. Perhaps in a similar fashion to how our character is always saving their friends by putting themselves in danger? Imagine if our character realized everyone they knew (including the twins) were about to be split into 14 new lives with no memory of what came before. Wouldn’t we try to save them - so they could keep the fight going?

And maybe, ultimately, the struggle to “keep the fight going” is what lead to the downfall of our Undsundered trio, both morally and mentally.

So I believe the reason Azem is missing from the majority of events happens for two reasons.

First, it's so the player has agency this expansion in the struggles of the past and witnesses them first hand.

Secondly, it leaves a plot point open for Azem to be attempting to fix another problem while summoning and sundering was played out. Since we know we are heading into a season 2 of the story so to speak, we now have a way to make the new plot ancient in origin and personally tied up with our player character again.

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

But wasn’t Azem sundered by Venat, and thus no longer that Azem? That’s how our characters exist, and they have no memory of their life as Azem.

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We do not know if sundering takes away memories. After all the only one that showed us something about that was Emet who simply made a copy of Ryne.

Our WoL basically does not remember their time as Azem because they are the (input unknown number) reincarnation of them. And with each death your soul normally gets cleaned up which is why we dont remember. Azem would have not died (there is imo nothing ingame that says that sundering kills you) and may have kept all the memories intact.

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

As far Azem being our WOL through some kind of time loop - I think it’s entirely possible. We may even need to merge with our few remaining sundered selves in order to travel back in time again. Something, something about being soul-dense enough to evade dynamis currents handwave handwave handwave (with a chance to visit a few other shards).

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I mean according to Venat nothing is impossible but I find the notion that we somehow gain all our our shards back and that we are THE Azem to be impossible for this kind of story. I doubt that the devs would create a story where the sundered souls would win because they were sundered and then turn around and make us whole. Not only would that mean that somehow the other shards of our souls get over to the source and then die or that the rejoinings are happening anyway.

And then we have to remember that Ancients get very old. Who knows how old Azem was when the final days happened. How would we be able to live through all of it? Would nobody ever question that we basically have no family because we would already be adults? And then how would that fit with the sundering and everything after that?

I think Time Traveling can already open way too many plot holes if its done wrong. Such an undertaking with Azem being really us would just be too much (imo).

I feel like it's not worth trying to make sense of Azem's strange omniscience at this point. Too many variables.

I will look forward to getting more pieces of the puzzle in the following raids.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

We do not know if sundering takes away memories. After all the only one that showed us something about that was Emet who simply made a copy of Ryne.

Our WoL basically does not remember their time as Azem because they are the (input unknown number) reincarnation of them. And with each death your soul normally gets cleaned up which is why we dont remember. Azem would have not died (there is imo nothing ingame that says that sundering kills you) and may have kept all the memories intact.



I mean according to Venat nothing is impossible but I find the notion that we somehow gain all our our shards back and that we are THE Azem to be impossible for this kind of story. I doubt that the devs would create a story where the sundered souls would win because they were sundered and then turn around and make us whole. Not only would that mean that somehow the other shards of our souls get over to the source and then die or that the rejoinings are happening anyway.

And then we have to remember that Ancients get very old. Who knows how old Azem was when the final days happened. How would we be able to live through all of it? Would nobody ever question that we basically have no family because we would already be adults? And then how would that fit with the sundering and everything after that?

I think Time Traveling can already open way too many plot holes if its done wrong. Such an undertaking with Azem being really us would just be too much (imo).

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I’m a little confused on this notion people keep bringing up about the sundering being a copy/past job. Is there any lore pointing to this idea that somehow the sundering created 14 identical versions of each person sundered? That the sundering made 14 identical planets with copies of all the people sundered on each one? I haven’t read anything stating this was the case.

I was under the impression that when Venat sundered her planet - she started 14 new planets from scratch - with entirely new life on each one. No copies of any person she knew or lived alongside with. No 14 Azem clones each existing on a same but diminished planet.

Is this actual lore? Or just a theory being repeated?

This is important baseline stuff for me. The idea of 14 Azems running around with clones of their friends - each starting what amounts to their own timeline on each cloned planet is a cool idea - but I don’t remember anything like that being mentioned.

Isn’t each shard its own thing, that developed in parallel to the source post-sundering?

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

I’m a little confused on this notion people keep bringing up about the sundering being a copy/past job. Is there any lore pointing to this idea that somehow the sundering created 14 identical versions of each person sundered? That the sundering made 14 identical planets with copies of all the people sundered on each one? I haven’t read anything stating this was the case.

I was under the impression that when Venat sundered her planet - she started 14 new planets from scratch - with entirely new life on each one. No copies of any person she knew or lived alongside with. No 14 Azem clones each existing on a same but diminished planet.

Is this actual lore? Or just a theory being repeated?

This is important baseline stuff for me. The idea of 14 Azems running around with clones of their friends - each starting what amounts to their own timeline on each cloned planet is a cool idea - but I don’t remember anything like that being mentioned.

Isn’t each shard its own thing, that developed in parallel to the source post-sundering?

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The shards are seperate, but still connected, the rejoinings couldn't happen otherwise. Hydaelyn's sundering is described as dividing anything, 1 person becomes 2 identical in all respects but notably both are reduced in all respects. And while they start from the same point, they are now different beings, who will experience the world differently and become different people as a result.

The shards all started seemingly identical in appearence to the source, but 12,000 ish years is enough to cause great differences and changes in all of them.

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

I’m a little confused on this notion people keep bringing up about the sundering being a copy/past job. Is there any lore pointing to this idea that somehow the sundering created 14 identical versions of each person sundered? That the sundering made 14 identical planets with copies of all the people sundered on each one? I haven’t read anything stating this was the case.

I was under the impression that when Venat sundered her planet - she started 14 new planets from scratch - with entirely new life on each one. No copies of any person she knew or lived alongside with. No 14 Azem clones each existing on a same but diminished planet.

Is this actual lore? Or just a theory being repeated?

This is important baseline stuff for me. The idea of 14 Azems running around with clones of their friends - each starting what amounts to their own timeline on each cloned planet is a cool idea - but I don’t remember anything like that being mentioned.

Isn’t each shard its own thing, that developed in parallel to the source post-sundering?

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I can't remember the name of the quest but the scene is rewatchable in the Inn, Emet-Selch himself describes what exactly happened when the sundering took place. When I get home I'll give you the name of the quest and which number in the journal it is.

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

I’m a little confused on this notion people keep bringing up about the sundering being a copy/past job. Is there any lore pointing to this idea that somehow the sundering created 14 identical versions of each person sundered? That the sundering made 14 identical planets with copies of all the people sundered on each one? I haven’t read anything stating this was the case.

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Emet demonstrates the concept of sundering by creating the illusion of an exact copy of Ryne, saying that all aspects of a person would be split between the copies.

And for the worlds themselves, you can see that the basic geography of Eorzea and Norvrandt lines up.

Additionally you mostly find the same creatures on each shard.

I see. I remember the the scene in question, where Emet is snapping left and right. I didn’t think he meant each planet was literally a perfect copy - but I suppose it could be interpreted as such.

It’s an interesting notion. If true, then that means each reflection had a diminished Azem running around on it on post-sundering, day one?

Is the going theory then that there was a Convocation on each planet as well? Do they remember what happened?

Emet in the cutscene says the sundered were all dummies - but Emet is a bit harsh.

Do we know if the sundered knew what happened to them? Emet infers they were unaware… but we do have cave paintings and ruins of Amaurot.

Does that mean there are Amaurot ruins on each reflected planet?

Emet spells out the state of the Sundered in the cave scene. About their memories of the Unsundered World or their previous lives, he says: "No one could remember it. Only fleeting recollections of an all too familiar world."

So the cave paintings were made from vague, fragmented memories, and the Sundered were effectively different people, if you go off the stories usual logic of memories=who you are.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

Emet spells out the state of the Sundered in the cave scene. About their memories of the Unsundered World or their previous lives, he says: "No one could remember it. Only fleeting recollections of an all too familiar world."

So the cave paintings were made from vague, fragmented memories, and the Sundered were effectively different people, if you go off the stories usual logic of memories=who you are.

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So to bring it back to Azem and secret plans. If this version of the sundering is true - then we had 14 Azems with fuzzy memories of what happened running around immediately after the sundering?

We had 14 versions of anyone who was alive at the moment of the sundering? And they all start at the same point - (let’s say the moment right after the sundering) but begin to diverge from there in behavior and action? Thus creating sort of 14 different timelines on each reflection?

Are we dealing with something closer to a multi-verse story then?

If this is the case, then I bet we have at least one Azem running around on one of the shards, still alive and kicking. (Sure they’d be old, but maybe they were frozen or found a way to prolong life…).

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

So to bring it back to Azem and secret plans. If this version of the sundering is true - then we had 14 Azems with fuzzy memories of what happened running around immediately after the sundering?

We had 14 versions of anyone who was alive at the moment of the sundering? And they all start at the same point - (let’s say the moment right after the sundering) but begin to diverge from there in behavior and action? Thus creating sort of 14 different timelines on each reflection?

Are we dealing with something closer to a multi-verse story then?

If this is the case, then I bet we have at least one Azem running around on one of the shards, still alive and kicking. (Sure they’d be old, but maybe they were frozen or found a way to prolong life…).

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That azem would be over 12,000 years old or more depending on how bad the time dilation is between the source and whatever shard that one would be on. However in all technicality there have been 2 azems so far your character and Ardbert but with reincarnation causing the removal of memories they did not know it until they were told (kinda told in Ardbert's case since he was a ghost following us around and was only told our soul and his was the same sundered soul and then he merged with us)

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Originally Posted by Veloran

inside the planet.

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I'm happy because i'm not crazy...
i wrote about it on r/ffxiv and someone told me 'well..the watcher (on the moon) already explained what happened' but i always considered it as a vague explanation.
Also we don't see how Hydaelyn was summoned, only Zodiark. I don't have any doubt they will find a way to tie with Pandaemonium.

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes.../#sidestory_01
Some of these stories mention Phoinix as one of Lahabrea creation.
We are facing his creations while a strange sound emerge from inside the 'prison'. I'm curious to see what they will do with that.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

Emet spells out the state of the Sundered in the cave scene. About their memories of the Unsundered World or their previous lives, he says: "No one could remember it. Only fleeting recollections of an all too familiar world."

So the cave paintings were made from vague, fragmented memories, and the Sundered were effectively different people, if you go off the stories usual logic of memories=who you are.

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I disagree that the description indicates that people completely lost who they were, especially after the focus on aether-blasted memory loss here. They might not be able to clearly remember what happened or what the world was like before, while other parts of their memories were still clear.

Of course, we don't know what physically happened or how we got from the ancient race to the modern ones.

It's why it's so frustrating that after building up the mystery of what exactly happened, the writers seem to have decided they aren't really sure either and just presented something vague and allegorical without any practical explanation of the mechanisms.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

They might not be able to clearly remember what happened or what the world was like before, while other parts of their memories were still clear....sure either and just presented something vague and allegorical without any practical explanation of the mechanisms.

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Maybe Kairos was an attempt to give some clue. However, we just know that Hermes was dealing with magicks related to memory.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

That azem would be over 12,000 years old or more depending on how bad the time dilation is between the source and whatever shard that one would be on. However in all technicality there have been 2 azems so far your character and Ardbert but with reincarnation causing the removal of memories they did not know it until they were told (kinda told in Ardbert's case since he was a ghost following us around and was only told our soul and his was the same sundered soul and then he merged with us)

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I guess what I’m getting at is there were 14 identical Azems running around at one point - each on their own planet.

You bring up a good point about time dilation as seen in SB. That means we could potentially visit a planet where the sundering only happened ten minutes ago - and our Azem (well, a diminished copy) would be right there to chat with. They’d have a fuzzy memory - but since books and other media all got copied too - that means we could potentially get important pre-sundering information.

This is all pretty fascinating to me - and only fuels my speculation that there’s narrative room for Azem (or now, in this case, multiple Azems) to have been working on some sort of other plan.

We might even find out our Azem is the next “big bad” on one of the reflections. Maybe they’re also “re-collecting” their split souls from other reflections - and want to absorb us…

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Originally Posted by Shookbeast

We had 14 versions of anyone who was alive at the moment of the sundering? And they all start at the same point - (let’s say the moment right after the sundering) but begin to diverge from there in behavior and action? Thus creating sort of 14 different timelines on each reflection?

Are we dealing with something closer to a multi-verse story then?

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The shards are kind of sort of the practical effect of a multiverse if left to themselves, but at the same time they're physically linked to each other within a larger single timeline – and since we also have timeline shenanigans going on, it can get confusing if you think of the shards as timelines as well.

Specifically, the timeline split caused by the events of Shadowbringers has affected the larger timeline that contains the Source, the First and all the other shards together, creating a sequence of events where both worlds are saved together instead of being rejoined and destroyed/damaged.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The shards are kind of sort of the practical effect of a multiverse if left to themselves, but at the same time they're physically linked to each other within a larger single timeline – and since we also have timeline shenanigans going on, it can get confusing if you think of the shards as timelines as well.

Specifically, the timeline split caused by the events of Shadowbringers has affected the larger timeline that contains the Source, the First and all the other shards together, creating a sequence of events where both worlds are saved together instead of being rejoined and destroyed/damaged.

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Yeah. This makes sense to me.

I wonder then what goal (if any) all 14 sundered Azem clones (I’m gonna call them clones for now) might’ve been working toward…

I initially understood the sundering to be a complete reboot - but now it’s more like a series of backups or save-copies that all went on to have their own lives.

This also points to the 12 likely being the source’s “clones” of the remaining 14.

Since we had Emet and his buddies bouncing from planet to planet (reflection to reflection) - I wonder if there was a point in time where the 12 (or remaining Convocation) were communicating with their clones on the other reflections? Was Azem chatting with other Azems trying to figure out what happened?

Did Emet have dinner with 14 Azems and then cry into his napkin?