The Bizarre Lack of Development and Pathos Concerning Zenos [6.0 Spoilers]

They haven't released a Zenos minion yet, so he'll be fine.

He should send in an application to the Scions just for the laugh. We don't have anyone on the team who can properly alternate from deadpan voice of common sense to extremely intimidating. Every so often, when you're in the middle of negotiating something, he could just put on that fanatical grin, prompting everyone to put their hands to their weapons. It would also be interesting to see his dynamic with Alisaie, given that they already have a bit of banter going over Azem.

If they release Zenos minion before Emet-Selch, I'll be mad >.<

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyth

They haven't released a Zenos minion yet, so he'll be fine.

He should send in an application to the Scions just for the laugh. We don't have anyone on the team who can properly alternate from deadpan voice of common sense to extremely intimidating. Every so often, when you're in the middle of negotiating something, he could just put on that fanatical grin, prompting everyone to put their hands to their weapons. It would also be interesting to see his dynamic with Alisaie, given that they already have a bit of banter going over Azem.

---

I mean we have minions of Scions who are still alive such as Alisaie, Alphinaud, Y'shtola, Thancred I think... Or of random NPCs who are not Scions like Cirina, Sadu, Magnai, Nanamo, etc. We also have minions of enemies who are still alive such as the Cloud of Darkness. So not sure what having or not having minions of a certain character even means anymore.

But yeah, such a fun idea about Zenos joining the Scions and acting like that!

Wasn't that the whole point of Zenos' arc in EW? He even says outright that he has no reason for what he does other than to fight WoL. If you don't like it, too bad, he doesn't care - his words, not mine.

And honestly, that blunt unwillingness to be sympathetic or redeemable really improved him in my eyes. The fact that he came to understand WoL better in EW also helped - in StB, Zenos claims that we're just like him, that we only seek the thrill of battle. In EW, he grasps the fact that WoL is a hero and does many things not out of bloodlust or seeking a challenge — after all, we wouldn't do a lot of things we've done if we were just looking for the next good fight.

Besides. his adjusted understanding of the WoL, as well as willingness to help us, means that he did evolve in a way. His new reasoning that heroics, while a major part of WoL's motivations, are not all of WoL's motivations, was extremely on point for me. After all, I enjoy combat in the game. I even find myself disappointed if an enemy does too quickly before I can use at least a few cool abilities. So...smirk and accept yourself - and him - for what you are? Don't mind if I do.

Also, Zenos was the perfect answer to EW's question about the meaning of life. His life has but one meaning, and he found it himself, and that's it. Life is what you make of it, nothing more and nothing less.

TL;DR: EW made me appreciate Zenos a lot more. He might not be as sympathetic or pitiable as other villains, but he finally found his groove. Not every villain needs to be like Emet-Selch or Elidibus.

Zenos went from my least favorite character in XIV (Emet firmly has that bottom position now) to redeeming his role in the story somewhat by thematically fitting into the debate around nihilism as one of the complementary facets, and while I still wish there was a stronger option to at least try to walk away from that mandated final duel with him, said duel was the only other time besides Shinryu where fighting Zenos wasn't a chore. If Zenos returns in any way after that ending, it undoes the scraps of acceptance and tolerance I have for his character. And I was finally experiencing this emotion of 'not being bored and disgusted by the mere mention of Zenos' - don't take that away from me! *laughs*

In my opinion, Zenos is set up to return. There are way too many hints and clues around him, and way too many unanswered questions. Yoshi-P absolutely loves Zenos, the Japanese audiences love Zenos, Yoshi-P also loves good mysteries and slowly and deliberately building up a story, a mystery. All those clues and hints about Zenos will lead somewhere, there are too many to just be ignored forever. And Zenos might finally receive proper development, in-depth, the way the Ascians did in Shadowbringers and Endwalker, after they too, felt, for many years, as very boring villains/characters.

To articulate and earlier thought a bit better, Ishikawa-san once upon a time explained that she is not afraid to kill or resurrect anyone if she believes the story has use for them and can be improved by it. (Whether she takes into account the logical/emotional tax incurred on the viewer by not knowing what they can count on in the story, I'm unsure.)

To not show Zenos - the man who has nearly cut off his own head and lived - dissolve into mist and subsequently articulate the circumstances of his demise, I see that as....quantum narrative.

Endwalker spent an extraordinary amount of text tiles clarifying and repeating things making sure the minimal number of people could possibly inaccurately interpret things that were meant to be understood a specitic way. (Hells, sometimes the characters just won't. shut. up.) To not do it here feels...deliberate.

I see Zenos as simultaneously intended to be dead and intended to return.

To me, he is simultaneously dead and only-mostly-dead until we observe him and collapse the Zenos wave function.

For what it's worth, his body was still partially transformed by his Enshrouded Voidsent partner. Namely his left hand and side garment. Maybe they'll bring him back in the Void recovery quests or something.

I'm not keen on this modern idea that "villains can't be evil for the sake of being evil. They have to have REASONS and a sympathetic backstory!".

Sometimes people are simply evil, nothing more. That's why I liked Zenos. In a story oversaturated with tragic sob stories and characters mulling over their master plans, here you have a serial killer who just wants his big fight and throws a wrench into things.

Fighting along Zenos would have been cool but I wouldn't have wanted to have seen him redeemed. I also don't want him to come back from the dead. To me, one of FFXIV's big selling points over its competitors is that the villains actually die and stay dead.

My only disappointment with Zenos is that he spent an entire patch cycle and an expansion just sitting around doing nothing, rather than going out being a terrifying force.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

I'm not keen on this modern idea that "villains can't be evil for the sake of being evil. They have to have REASONS and a sympathetic backstory!".

Sometimes people are simply evil, nothing more. That's why I liked Zenos. In a story oversaturated with tragic sob stories and characters mulling over their master plans, here you have a serial killer who just wants his big fight and throws a wrench into things.

Fighting along Zenos would have been cool but I wouldn't have wanted to have seen him redeemed. I also don't want him to come back from the dead. To me, one of FFXIV's big selling points over its competitors is that the villains actually die and stay dead.

My only disappointment with Zenos is that he spent an entire patch cycle and an expansion just sitting around doing nothing, rather than going out being a terrifying force.

---

Villains evil for evil's sake isn't good storytelling. The reality is the only entity who is evil for evil's sake is Satan and even he was retconned by Milton to be a tragic hero. It's just not realistic in any shape or form. So the rule is more like "write a justification as to why the villain wants to commit this atrocious act". Remember that story telling only moves forward with character development and if characters don't change then the story will always feel flat.

What really makes Zenos terrible in this expansion is he only figures out at the last minute that if I help the WOL who has spurned me 'my fight' to kill his other opponent, then he'll have the time to fight me. Not great character development with grade school playground logic.

Worse the dialogue options don't even give us the player or WOL the option to say no. SO many threads were made before this expansion saying the WOL and Zenos are foils. They aren't and this expansion proves it, because the two of them can only be "foiled" if the WOL realizes he isn't the animal that Zenos is and walks away from the fight. And we didn't even have that option. Literally nothing is learned by the player, the WOL, or Zenos over this whole situation.

And since he didn't move the plot, as that was all Fandaniel, Zenos shouldn't have been in this expansion at all. Glad he reversed death so we could be like, "Cool scythe, bro."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

In my opinion, Zenos is set up to return. There are way too many hints and clues around him, and way too many unanswered questions. Yoshi-P absolutely loves Zenos, the Japanese audiences love Zenos, Yoshi-P also loves good mysteries and slowly and deliberately building up a story, a mystery. All those clues and hints about Zenos will lead somewhere, there are too many to just be ignored forever. And Zenos might finally receive proper development, in-depth, the way the Ascians did in Shadowbringers and Endwalker, after they too, felt, for many years, as very boring villains/characters.

---

This is a worst case scenario, in my opinion. Bringing Zenos back from another "should be dead" situation so he can fight us again only creates the mystery of how did he cheat death this time...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

In my opinion, Zenos is set up to return. There are way too many hints and clues around him, and way too many unanswered questions. Yoshi-P absolutely loves Zenos, the Japanese audiences love Zenos, Yoshi-P also loves good mysteries and slowly and deliberately building up a story, a mystery. All those clues and hints about Zenos will lead somewhere, there are too many to just be ignored forever. And Zenos might finally receive proper development, in-depth, the way the Ascians did in Shadowbringers and Endwalker, after they too, felt, for many years, as very boring villains/characters.

---

Hate to break it to you but based on the most recent poll we have for FF popularity in Japan, Zenos barely makes the top 100 FF characters.

Yotsuyu beat him and he didn't even come close to Emet/Hauchefont/G'raha/Estinien.

Even if you take out Emet/G'raha because of how recent they were to the poll he still isn't as popular as Lunafreya or Estinien.

Here is the reddit thread with the translation of the poll

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...poll_its_cool/



If they were to do another one soon I am sure Zenos will be more popular now than before however I still doubt he would break the top 50 let alone come close to where Emet will be.

Also to add Zenos has extra exposure compared to nearly every other XIV character besides Y'shtola because of being in NT as the villain rep (NT was during Stormblood so Emet wasn't even given a chance).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

I'm not keen on this modern idea that "villains can't be evil for the sake of being evil. They have to have REASONS and a sympathetic backstory!".

Sometimes people are simply evil, nothing more. That's why I liked Zenos. In a story oversaturated with tragic sob stories and characters mulling over their master plans, here you have a serial killer who just wants his big fight and throws a wrench into things.

Fighting along Zenos would have been cool but I wouldn't have wanted to have seen him redeemed. I also don't want him to come back from the dead. To me, one of FFXIV's big selling points over its competitors is that the villains actually die and stay dead.

My only disappointment with Zenos is that he spent an entire patch cycle and an expansion just sitting around doing nothing, rather than going out being a terrifying force.

---

Nope, villains don't all stay dead in FFXIV. Zenos is not the only one to not stay dead. Other examples include Gaius, Yotsuyu, The Cloud of Darkness, even Estinien and Nidhogg at some point in the past.

Y'shtola, while not a villain, has cheated death multiple times.

Even Nanamo seemed to die/be poisoned, only to be shown later on that she was fine.

So yeah, characters in FFXIV, both heroes and villains, do come back pretty often. Natsuko Ishikawa herself said that she isn't afraid to bring back characters if it would make the story better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kesey

This is a worst case scenario, in my opinion. Bringing Zenos back from another "should be dead" situation so he can fight us again only creates the mystery of how did he cheat death this time...

---

Nope, I never said that Zenos should be brough back so he could fight us again. He should be brought back so he can be given a redemption/rehabilitation arc, with depth and meaning. He could become an anti-hero. The possibilities are endless.

As for the mystery of how he cheated death this time, there are many possibilities, left there by the writers themselves:
1. He's an Ascian in everything but name
2. He's a Reaper and his voidsent can save his life (something shown in the Reaper questline)
3. He's surrounded by Dynamis which works on emotions alone, depending on his emotions and his willpower, he could achieve the "impossible".

If the writers wanted him 100% dead and with no way of ever, ever coming back, they would have shown his body dissipating into aether or into black smoke or something that would have left no doubt whatsoever that he is dead and beyond any possibility of ever returning. That's not what happened. He has been left there with many ways to come back both to life and back to our star/planet.

Oh and the thing with "But he stopped breathing!". Yeah, he stopped breathing in Stormblood as well, when he cut his own throat and then he was buried. He wasn't breathing then for a long time, yet he came back. So him not breathing is not absolute evidence that he is for sure dead with no way whatsoever to return.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crushnight

Hate to break it to you but based on the most recent poll we have for FF popularity in Japan, Zenos barely makes the top 100 FF characters.

Yotsuyu beat him and he didn't even come close to Emet/Hauchefont/G'raha/Estinien.

Even if you take out Emet/G'raha because of how recent they were to the poll he still isn't as popular as Lunafreya or Estinien.

Here is the reddit thread with the translation of the poll

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...poll_its_cool/



If they were to do another one soon I am sure Zenos will be more popular now than before however I still doubt he would break the top 50 let alone come close to where Emet will be.

---

Zenos is very popular in Japan as a FFXIV character, not necessarily as a FF character overall. And I am sure that after Endwalker, he will become even more popular. My Japanese friends have already told me that the Japanese players with whom they interact have already shown an increased appreciation/interest for Zenos. And Yoshi-P himself loves Zenos as a character. Interestingly enough, Japanese audiences seem to have a deeper understanding of Zenos than Western audiences who just seem, generally, more impatient, and more willing to gloss over or outright ignore details, clues, and hints, as well as subtlety in general.

At the very least they explained Zenos' origins, even if everything just wraps back around into Hermes being the single biggest screwup in the universe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veloran

At the very least they explained Zenos' origins, even if everything just wraps back around into Hermes being the single biggest screwup in the universe.

---

Except we're still missing the detail of why the heck he was having dreams about the Final Days.

Honestly, I don't think Zenos's story is completely done. He may be dead -- not that that stopped him before -- but there are still loose ends. Most notably being his dreams of the Final Days and the identity of his voidsent Avatar, which Yoshi-P hinted was connected to the Warrior of Light.

That's not to say he'll come back to life, but I would be surprised if we don't learn more about him and his soul before everything is said and done. The story of how he came to obtain his Avatar feels like something that could well be handled in a short story, but it's hard for me to imagine that his soul hasn't always been entwined with Azem's in a perpetual, cyclical conflict, and that feels like something we could potentially see play out in the game as we inevitably come to learn the story of Azem.

With Garlemald in shambles I read the Emet-Selch "don't squander my legacy" as partly involving Zenos. I forgot to mention that. It was a weird thing to hear after essentially going through hell in Garlemald and seeing so many deaths from suicide. I don't know if it would change things if he did, but it is a neat thought. He has made cryptic requests of us before at the end of his appearances!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

Zenos is very popular in Japan as a FFXIV character, not necessarily as a FF character overall.

---

Source please, anecdotal evidence is not good enough, I provided the most recent data on his popularity in Japan please provide something to counter it besides my friends in JP say he is popular.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

And I am sure that after Endwalker, he will become even more popular.

---

No doubt I said as much in my post that after EW he would be more popular, recency bias is a thing, and Zenos will not be immune to it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

My Japanese friends have already told me that the Japanese players with whom they interact have already shown an increased appreciation/interest for Zenos.

---

Anecdotal, people you interact with and people they interact with is not indicative of a playerbase at large. Best to wait to see the next popularity poll to happen so we can see how he actually fared in popularity on a more unbias scale.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

And Yoshi-P himself loves Zenos as a character.

---

Noted, but 1 man liking does not mean much, the most this means is the Director/Producer may try to push what they like on a playerbase that they may not want as much and I am suddenly reminded of the Tales of Zesteria and the Rose/Aisha fiasco. Fortunately it is nowhere near as bad as that but Yoshi P is not immune to it, remember Endwalker was delayed because he wasn't happy with some parts of the expansion being up to his standards.

He has the power to do something like that, he is the man who changed Lakshmi from an older looking snake woman to a younger one. He could've done something like remove a walk away option before the final fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elysidelphi

Interestingly enough, Japanese audiences seem to have a deeper understanding of Zenos than Western audiences who just seem, generally, more impatient, and more willing to gloss over or outright ignore details, clues, and hints, as well as subtlety in general.

---

This ... is just condescending and outright insulting, I am part of multiple FF not just XIV but FF gacha discords and guess what people have different opinions and I interact with both Western players and Eastern players and on both sides of the world they are split when it comes to Zenos and yet not 1 person ever resorted to insulting the other side for their opinion, but you seem to have just decided that anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion on Zenos is deliberately ignorant of his character. People are not, they take in all the information that Zenos has been given and still don't like them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GrenDuelar

Honestly, I don't think Zenos's story is completely done. He may be dead -- not that that stopped him before -- but there are still loose ends. Most notably being his dreams of the Final Days and the identity of his voidsent Avatar, which Yoshi-P hinted was connected to the Warrior of Light.

That's not to say he'll come back to life, but I would be surprised if we don't learn more about him and his soul before everything is said and done. The story of how he came to obtain his Avatar feels like something that could well be handled in a short story, but it's hard for me to imagine that his soul hasn't always been entwined with Azem's in a perpetual, cyclical conflict, and that feels like something we could potentially see play out in the game as we inevitably come to learn the story of Azem.

---

Totally agree, I do not believe he is dead though, it just seemed very open ended.

Completely tangential, but:

“I personally found that last shot of Zenos’ body left to rot the edge of the universe unexpectedly cruel, and I had difficulty feeling positively throughout the rest of the game’s ending.“

I did too. But then I realized: Zenos died exactly where he wanted, when he wanted. I imagine he’d want a sick ass impromptu gravestone on the edge of the universe, where no one will ever find his remains because they’re unworthy and painfully trite (to him). He’s as far away from the world he hated as one could possibly get.

Honestly, if we brought his remains back, he’d probably come back from the dead again just to repossess his corpse and leap out of the Ragnarok while it was still in space. And if his Avatar possesses his Corpse? Zenos spooked an Unsundered Ancient out of his stolen body, I imagine this time he’d somehow reduce it to mincemeat without having to body hop again. Just a dynamis wraith formed around the emotion of “LET ME STAY DEAD”.

Last thing I got out of Zenos toward the very end is that he is combat sexual.

Ok jokes aside, I really wonder if that is the end of him because what if his Voidsent takes over his body?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crushnight

Noted, but 1 man liking does not mean much, the most this means is the Director/Producer may try to push what they like on a playerbase that they may not want as much and I am suddenly reminded of the Tales of Zesteria and the Rose/Aisha fiasco. Fortunately it is nowhere near as bad as that but Yoshi P is not immune to it, remember Endwalker was delayed because he wasn't happy with some parts of the expansion being up to his standards.

...

This ... is just condescending and outright insulting, I am part of multiple FF not just XIV but FF gacha discords and guess what people have different opinions and I interact with both Western players and Eastern players and on both sides of the world they are split when it comes to Zenos and yet not 1 person ever resorted to insulting the other side for their opinion, but you seem to have just decided that anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion on Zenos is deliberately ignorant of his character. People are not, they take in all the information that Zenos has been given and still don't like them.

---

On the first part, absolutely. Yoshida liking Zenos a lot may actually be the only thing that kept Zenos somewhat relevant. I've said before that Zenos continued existence after he offed himself feels like the writers are basically being forced to keep him around because someone higher up wants him to be there, and YoshiP basically telling them they have to keep him around makes a lot of sense. Not saying Yoshida is his only fan, clearly, but the writers haven't done anything with him for, what, 4 years? It really doesn't seem like the writers choice.

On the second part, also absolutely. I get that Zenos is liked (and even loved) by some. I get that some people do think that he works and do feel that he connects with them. I'm fine with that. I loved Fandaniel and I know that some people absolutely hated him, and not just in the way he was intended to be hated. I'm just sick of being told that I just don't like Zenos because I don't understand him, or because I just don't get how deep he is or how great he is. If he works for you, that's cool. If he clicks with you as the perfect villain or perfect anti-hero or perfect reflection of your particular WoL, that's fine. But there are some people (quite a few people if you ask around) that he doesn't work for and hasn't worked for for years now and, I'm sorry, but it's not because we just "don't get it."

This isn't particularly directed at the above poster because there is always a ton of this...

What does someone not liking a character, whichever one that may be, and being unwilling to even tolerate hearing about them ("just let them die," "they are boring") add to the discussion?

What is pointing out ad nauseam that a character is bad, morally degenerate, or that they only exist for fan service actually contributing?

Maybe it says something about your perception when you are reading a conversation about a character as just someone's attempt to hype them or to try to explain/convince you why the character is good.

Then there's that, too, of course. And I really think the people who do that just love the story as much as I do. At least it is more than "he's boring; let him die."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vormela

This isn't particularly directed at the above poster because there is always a ton of this...

What does someone not liking a character, whichever one that may be, and being unwilling to even tolerate hearing about them ("just let them die," "they are boring") add to the discussion?

What is pointing out ad nauseam that a character is bad, morally degenerate, or that they only exist for fan service actually contributing?

Maybe it says something about your perception when you are reading a conversation about a character as just someone's attempt to hype them or to try to explain/convince you why the character is good.

Then there's that, too, of course. And I really think the people who do that just love the story as much as I do. At least it is more than "he's boring; let him die."

---

This was what I was most afraid of when I posted this thread and it was disappointing when that happened, but totally unsurprising, lol. At least there's been a liiiittle bit of worthwhile discussion for me to comb through, though!

Assuming the story is going to start pushing more into mysteries pertaining to the world itself like the Lifestream, the nature of souls, and the Echo, I feel like we're probably going to end up unraveling what the deal with Zenos was in the process.

I'm leaning towards him being an attempt on Emet's part to create beings that were closer to the Ancients without need of completing the Rejoining either as a contingency plan or simply due to his distaste for man's flawed state of being.

In PLL Yoshida said that Zenos inherited it from Emet-Selch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Erendis

In PLL Yoshida said that Zenos inherited it from Emet-Selch.

---

That feels rather...unsatisfying after Fandaniel suggested there was some deeper reason behind it.

They did however stress that the matter of how Zenos became a reaper and got his avatar is something they can't talk about, so I'm completely expecting at least that avatar of his to become a nuisance in the future because the RPR quests established a precedent for them attempting to use their pact-bearers as puppets as soon as the chance presents itself.

Though they could also be suggesting it was rather the manner in which his avatar was summoned could become a problem, since there's no indication he actually left the capital to do so and the tower is still radiating an unpleasant aura not unlike that of an enshrouded reaper's...

I guess they wanted a final fight with Zenos and that they were building him up at the tail-end of SB and hints through ShB.

I feel like the team wanted to wrap up the OG storyline and Zenos as a result was a part of that.

But honestly, he's not very complicated to understand. Simply put, he just lives for the thrill of fighting and the WoL was that contender.

Personally I find it boring and it's kind of a weird addition to EW's ending but loose ends are tied up.

And for Zenos's sake, I hope he stays dead. Bringing him back would be pointless and make people dislike him even further than they already do.

The writers having him help us at the end was their attempt of making him into a neutral enemy.

And honestly him dying in SB is where he should have stayed, at least his death was poetic there.

Just a tought, if the Azim Steppes creation myths could have some degree of truth as embelished tales from before the sundering, and Azim is actually Azem, couldn't Zenos be Namaah? Two "lovers" embroiled in war against each other fits the WoL and Zenos perfectly, and he actually was shown to have memories of the final days (if memory serves me right, of Azem particularly).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luizgazen

Just a tought, if the Azim Steppes creation myths could have some degree of truth as embelished tales from before the sundering, and Azim is actually Azem, couldn't Zenos be Namaah? Two "lovers" embroiled in war against each other fits the WoL and Zenos perfectly, and he actually was shown to have memories of the final days (if memory serves me right, of Azem particularly).

---

The problem with that is that as previously discussed, they bluntly shot down any theories of him potentially having an ancient soul by stating he somehow genetically inherited the memories of the Final Days from Emet Selch.

I suppose you could handwave it as being something similar to G'raha inheriting the Allagan Eye as it also carried memories, but it more strongly comes across as a plot thread they decided to abandon after Zenos ended up being given a smaller role then was originally intended/expected.

I'd be surprised if the truth of who Nhaama was didn't come to light during the alliance raids, in any case.

Seeing how they made Venat/Hydaelyn dead-dead to the point where her soul is no more and can't even reincarnate anymore, its safe to say that Zenos will be back. He slit his throat in SB, so him taking his "last breath" doesn't mean much.

As for who could be "Nhaama" I speculate it could be Venat. Ve(nhaama) like how Dalamud was eventually remembered from Bahamut. We know she was the former Azem and created moons. Perhaps the Au Ra vaguely remember when she sparred with Azem?

They also indicated with Venat that it is possible for a soul simply burn itself out to the point of non-existence, and with Zenos going on about how he wanted to "burn the candle of his life", I took that as a suggestion that something similar happened to him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

They also indicated with Venat that it is possible for a soul simply burn itself out to the point of non-existence, and with Zenos going on about how he wanted to "burn the candle of his life", I took that as a suggestion that something similar happened to him.

---

I’d agree. But then… the Q and A…

I personally interpreted what they said as "Yes, he's really dead this time"...but I suppose we'll probably have to wait until we figure out just what it is that was so important about how he got his avatar.

And this is the problem with the constant fakeot deaths: its hard to believe someone is truly dead unless we see them disintegrate into nothingness.

I suppose it's possible that Zenos is entirely gone and is little more than a powerful corpse for his Voidsent avatar to puppet in the same vein as Orcus from the Reaper job quests. There's still the Void and its inhabitants to serve as a future plot points to address after all. As much as I don't necessarily want to deal with Zenos yet again having his corpse spirited away to begin working on behalf of the Voidsent as a whole would be a good way to force our character to find a way to go to the Thirteenth.

Which could be a neat basis for a future expansion in itself. I'd find the aesthetics agreeable and it'd be pretty cool to interact with additional friendly Voidsent.

Zenos said "I need burn through the candle of my life" but there is more to it, when we say "That I cannot deny!, our WoL starts to grin.
After we wake up on the Ship and get on our Feets to see what is going on "outside" our WoL grins again. Why do we do that? And why got Zenos named "Zenos viator Galvus" ? Viator means traveler. Yoshi could not talk about Zenos, about how he became a Reaper and Zenos said by that Dinner we had, Strengh comes not from the Body, it comes from the Soul. So has someone ever asked, why Zenos got that new Name and where is he traveling or how he is traveling? What if he is now a part of the WoL? What if he travels with us or travels in our Body?