New summoner is unacceptable

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

I mean, yeah... But all you can do it submit feedback and then either suck it up or play another Job.

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Sure. Submitting feedback is more of an elegant way to put it. :p

I've mained SMN since early in 2.0 and have seen various changes over time. This is the first time I hated it. It's not like it's been live long enough to give it much of a chance so I'm trying to give it time before making a final judgement. I spent nearly 2 hours trying to figure out where to put things on my bars and standing at target dummies. So many abilities feel dead. Half of them are just sitting waiting for something else before they can even be used.

Thankfully everyone isn't over-geared yet. When a lot of melee are around it can be hard to tag mobs without an instant cast ability that isn't tied behind a proc. It isn't so bad when it takes a while to get mobs down but once they go down faster, it may be hard to get the tags at least. As an example, end of xpac hunt trains can be brutal.

But I'm not going to fret over it yet. I may thoroughly enjoy the job once I learn the new playstyle. But my first impression was that I hated it. I actually shed a couple of tears. lol But to be honest, I also had a raging headache and low sleep.

And now when I left the room to try to get rid of said headache, I got server kicked and found my way here just because of the server taking so long to let me back in. I would much rather be giving my summoner a chance than be here talking about it. o/

I main SMN/SCH since 2.0 and for once I kinda like the changes, the style and flow feels kinda nice to me.
What I am not happy about is how much "dumber" the class is now. The Memes about the 2 Min opener were kinda right, but at least you got rewarded for pulling it off.
Now I feel like Im on a different type of BLM :C

MP management over long fights is going to be a valid concern I think.

I love it.

The only thing it's missing IMHO is an instant cast, low potency attack for movement.

Also the value of using the egis in single target. I'm sure I'm missing something but they're like 140 potency vs Ruins 300 potency.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

I love it.

The only thing it's missing IMHO is an instant cast, low potency attack for movement.

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So 90% of it's kit?

Unacceptable? You know what was actually unacceptable? The disaster of a job we got in 5.0.

Today is the most fun I've ever had with Summoner, and doubtless the overwhelming majority of people feel the same. If I had not gone on to the forums to ask a question about something else entirely I would have missed this kind of complaining. Goodness. The happy people right now are by and large silent because we're all enjoying the game (provided we can log in). Why is it always the forums trying to ruin everyone's mood?

Regardless, the internal metrics will speak for themselves. For every person that went on here to complain there are 100+ people that went out to try out/boost/start the EW MSQ as Summoner because of these changes.

I didn't play SMN during ShB even though I was a main SMN since late HW. The current iteration of the class is amazing for me and really fun to use.

It's clear many are very likely in the honeymoon period and or are going to switch to their old jobs, the people that claim this is an OK job to ship.

Leaving old Summoner aside,
how can you tell people that you enjoy something that is clearly not finished? Spamming one button, claiming it's some kind of revolutionary gameplay and enjoyable while the healers provide nearly the same gameplay with the addition of doing more than playing a job that has slowed down a lot despite the instant-casts.

The oh-so-grandiose Summons are now pale shades, underwhelming and just not fun to use. I say "oh-so-grandioise" because that's how people describe them in past FF's. Yet with the current iteration, it's not even close to that. I feel nothing from them, I don't even notice their presence barring my buttons changing. It makes no sense at all.

This is seriously horribly designed and shouldn't have shipped as it is, there is nothing to do and the job shouldn't feel like it's a level 60 job while most of us are probably doing Endwalker content, so in the 80~90 bracket. Jobs shouldn't feel twenty levels behind what they actually are.
Hell, I'd say the changes make me feel less of a Summoner because of the fact my Summons barely do anything! And now we're the actual oh so joked about Ruin 3 mage. Is this really what you wanted? To become the meme?

I want people to come back an re-evaluate the state of how you enjoy Summoner post the initial "OH GOD HOW SHINY" period and then speak how they feel. But as someone who is interested in class design in general, this shouldn't have shipped.

Old summoner for a bit;
I've been playing this class since 2.4, basically since when I joined. I've dealt with Stormblood's horrible design and even then I spoke about it that we had to go through hoops to even manage to push out the fraction of the potential Bahamut could offer due to how it was coded. It wasn't fun but it felt like I was playing something! I just gritted my teeth and bore with it hoping that the next expansion would be better, which it was. However, a key note to take from what I just said is; I felt like I was playing something.

New Summoner just doesn't have that, there's just... nothing.

It's stupidly overpowered. Ran Castrum Albania synced to 70 with a good DNC and we killed things faster than they've ever been killed in that dungeon. If the trade off of complexity was being a more mobile BLM in terms of DPS output, I'll take it.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Like more than half of the opener, the busiest part of your rotation, is just pressing 1 (ruin). The job practically plays itself, with virtually zero room for optimization. There is virtually no fail state either. It's also basically a one-hotbar job.

I sincerely hope Square Enix does not think this is the way to go for all future jobs. This is embarrassingly unacceptable even from a casual perspective.

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Unsurprised. Shb made it obvious that FFXIV was slowly turning into a videogame for people that are bad at videogames and EW just continues that trend.

I wouldn't be surprised if further down the line Ultimates get AoE markers and Echo buff due to casual players feeling entitled to have things handed to them.

Okay. I doubt you'll be missed.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

Unsurprised. Shb made it obvious that FFXIV was slowly turning into a videogame for people that are bad at videogames and EW just continues that trend.

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It's as if this is a casual MMO or something! Also, complexity =/= fun more often than you may realize. If people really wanted complex job design, they would be giving us complex job design.

Guess I'll just copy-paste my remarks from a discord discussion into here now that I've actually gotten my hands on SMN. Ignore the fc banter in the screenshots, I guess.
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This feels like it should be a tank class
or what a healer DPS kit SHOULD be, certainly not a kit for a DPS.
nothing compared to old summoner.
and it's just as empty feeling as MCH is, if not worse
radiant aegis is also very useless due to low duration combined with usable with carby only. (should just make it 60s duration since it'll be difficult if not occasionally impossible to time this to be useful with raidwides)
the class also does not change from 80 to 90, so this is how it's gonna play at level cap
for those who don't believe me
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...37/unknown.png
the only 80-90 stuff is traits, and none of them actually change things, only up potency and toss in some pretty FX.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...22/unknown.png
Take away the FX and this job is very shallow.
HOWEVER, at least it's not lore-destroying changes like all the healer ones have been for two expansions.

and before anyone goes "but they're going to build off it"

ShB MCH and healers since SB prove that wrong, right there. as well as general dealings with other classes. things are not built off of in this game when it comes to these simplification reworks, what you see is what you get and what you're going to be stuck with unless JP raises hell or the devs change their ways, and I can tell you right now the latter is never going to come to pass.
TL;DR, I am both angry and dissapointed. And what happened to me with SB AST has happened again with ShB SMN, where my favorite class that I only got really into near the end of the expac was gutted going into the next one.
Also, it's button bloated, and noticeably at that, you could compact the summon trio down to one button that goes ifrit>titan>garuda, Energy Drain+Siphon could be turned into a trait that adds fall off AOE, same for Fester/painflare, and you could merge searing light with the level 2 shield and it wouldn't change a thing. Ruin IV also might as well not exist with how little you get to use it OR be a temp upgrade to Ruin 3. Astral Flow, too could just not exist as a separate button and be merged with the summon skill that it effects. The Gemshines could also be merged with your ST and AOE filler, too.

Take those out, replace them with OGCD heals, and you'd have a good healer, lol.
It also feels like shit because they got rid of the back-n-forth combo thing that added more variety to things. It's now just 1spam the class or 3spam the class. The ONLY, and I mean the ONLY saving grace that'll probably keep people form bitching too hard is the pretty FX, but like I said, what's left when you take those away... something pretty shit if you ask me.
And you're going to hear me bitching for two years about this only for them to fix nothing, so you better get used to it now.
because god knows they didn't pay attention to healer concerns and that was an ENTIRE role, a single class' concerns are certainly going to be ignored comparatively
Also, all the clowns who told me they were going to build off of ShB healers and make them more interesting, especially on the DPS side. They owe me sub time cards. Since the proof is in-game now that such was a lie.
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I could organize it for more clairty but I think it's fine like this.

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Originally Posted by Laphicet

SB MCH mains laugh at you and Healer mains continue to laugh at you and anyone who thinks this. It's not going to happen, once that complexity is gone it's gone for good with this dev team and their constant focus on appealing to bottom of the barrel players.

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Yeah I'm literally a healer main so... I said I hope they do. Do I think it will happen? Probably not. If SMN stays as it is I will play it, if healers stay as they are I will move off of them.

I liked SMN exactly how it was before. They could have changed it's named and invented an entirely new job with this rework. I don't care if people didn't like dots or felt like the rotation was janky. They didn't need to like the job as long as someone else did. What's the point in claiming to design an mmo that has something for everyone then reworking the job as soon as it develops a niche audience. Just look at the removal of monk positionals.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Yeah I'm literally a healer main so... I said I hope they do. Do I think it will happen? Probably not. If SMN stays as it is I will play it, if healers stay as they are I will move off of them.

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But you are literally playing the same thing if you move to Summoner.
A one button class lacking depth.
Like what is the fun in that? Hell, I'm considering switching to Sage because /that/ at least isn't Black Mage or Red Mage.
Just to get a bit of an itch that I need, in order to not be bored out of my mind because they made Summoner basically a healer.

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Originally Posted by lezard21

Unsurprised. Shb made it obvious that FFXIV was slowly turning into a videogame for people that are bad at videogames and EW just continues that trend.

I wouldn't be surprised if further down the line Ultimates get AoE markers and Echo buff due to casual players feeling entitled to have things handed to them.

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It's not that the game is turning easy but rather Square Enix are pushing the complexity to optional content and increasing the accessibility of the mandatory content like your rotation and things. IMO anyway :)

I don't really have a problem with this I think. I think I have more of a problem with lack of diversity, especially amongst tanks for example or healers, but the lack of complexity I don't mind. You can make up for that with encounter design imo.

Energy Drain/Fester/Painflare seem archaic to me. Fester and Pain I can work with but Ruin 4 just seems out of place. And the CD for it is too long. Once the novelty goes away you'll see it for how barebones and shallow it actually is.

And as stated previously you will run into MP problems making Lucid mandatory. Because a full rotation is going to cost you half your mana the ability to raise is going to be drastically reduced.

The damage shield overall is a nerf in both percentage and availability. Previous shield was 30% HP and on a 30s recast with 2 charges.

Devotion is twice as long so that's alright I guess.

An issue I have with Bahamut and Phoenix is you must use Bahamut and then Phoenix. You have no choice and you'll want Bahamut for big burst damage. And Phoenix for heals. It is VERY restrictive. Bahamut and Phoenix should be different buttons IMO.

Me, a healer main: "tell me more about how empty, uninspired, and fillery this new rotation feels..."

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ey23b52V...png&name=small

Yea, the job sucks....

Time to find a new main.

Endwalker SMN is how a FF Summoner should be and feel like.

The argument about complexity is rather moot for the job itself; as by design of FF series, it was focused on summoning something, it deals (usually) large damage, then leaves. Should there be a job that revolves around dots and be complex? Sure, why not; but Summoner is not that job. First thing that comes to mind would be Arithmetician from FFT.


That all said, the damage numbers do seem a bit janky and some balancing could be done, over all though the job feels as it should with the summons.

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Originally Posted by Vivix

I liked SMN exactly how it was before. They could have changed it's named and invented an entirely new job with this rework. I don't care if people didn't like dots or felt like the rotation was janky. They didn't need to like the job as long as someone else did. What's the point in claiming to design an mmo that has something for everyone then reworking the job as soon as it develops a niche audience. Just look at the removal of monk positionals.

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Because Summoner is too iconic of a job to have it reduced to a niche audience who likes dots. They should have given dot-enjoyers Necromancer or something instead of co-opting Summoner and twisting it into a failed version of Affliction Warlock.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Because Summoner is too iconic of a job to have it reduced to a niche audience who likes dots. They should have given dot-enjoyers Necromancer or something instead of co-opting Summoner and twisting it into a failed version of Affliction Warlock.

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No thanks, I wouldn't be able to touch that job without a 10-foot pole at the minimum because it makes me *very* sick.

Imho, Summoner feels even less of a Summoner now because the summons don't even impact your stuff anymore.

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Originally Posted by Sho86

Endwalker SMN is how a FF Summoner should be and feel like.

The argument about complexity is rather moot for the job itself; as by design of FF series, it was focused on summoning something, it deals (usually) large damage, then leaves. Should there be a job that revolves around dots and be complex? Sure, why not; but Summoner is not that job. First thing that comes to mind would be Arithmetician from FFT.


That all said, the damage numbers do seem a bit janky and some balancing could be done, over all though the job feels as it should with the summons.

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Summons have been controllable entities since FFX, so over 20 years at this point.

Summons should absolutely be controllable in ideal situations but for the past 8 years they tried and failed repeatedly to do that in this game. At some point you have to pull the plug when something has reached that level of dysfunction. Please. Before 10 summons were 1 off attacks, I like the mix we have in FF14 now but I do hope we get more summons later on.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Summons have been controllable entities since FFX, so over 20 years at this point.

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Thanks, I needed to feel old on top of worries about my new Job.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Summons have been controllable entities since FFX, so over 20 years at this point.

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And to add onto this, the only games where this was reverted to single powerful summons before EW were Bravely Default and Bravely Second. And that's only because those games were styled in the vein of FF3. Even then Summoner in those games had a good bit more going for it than just shitting out a big DPS spell or three then running OOM. With a stat distribution that complemented Black Magic very well as well as a ton of abilities to not only amplify summons but do other things like a last summon on death or raise max MP. They also got combined with Conjurer in Bravely Second so they now acted like a hybrid between Evoker and Summoner from FF3, able to apply both huge buffs and huge damage while also gaining most of the nicer abilities both classes had. Yokai also was a summoner type class but it could shit out status affects and other massively debilitating stuff alongside the -ja spell summons it had.

TL;DR. Big cutscene boom then OOM SMN hasn't been a thing since real early FF. Even recent spinoffs improved on it heavily, too.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

Me, a healer main: "tell me more about how empty, uninspired, and fillery this new rotation feels..."

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ey23b52V...png&name=small

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Imagine how I feel being both a healer main and a SMN main. Or going from one to the other, rather. :<

First SB AST gets shat on going into ShB, then SMN gets shat on going into EW. I seem to be cursed that every class I fall in love with near the end of an expac gets utterly trashed in the next one. At least the SMN rework wasn't a lore-destroying mess though.

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Originally Posted by Laphicet

And to add onto this, the only games where this was reverted to single powerful summons before EW were Bravely Default and Bravely Second. And that's only because those games were styled in the vein of FF3. Even then Summoner in those games had a good bit more going for it than just shitting out a big DPS spell or three then running OOM. With a stat distribution that complemented Black Magic very well as well as a ton of abilities to not only amplify summons but do other things like a last summon on death or raise max MP. They also got combined with Conjurer in Bravely Second so they now acted like a hybrid between Evoker and Summoner from FF3, able to apply both huge buffs and huge damage while also gaining most of the nicer abilities both classes had. Yokai also was a summoner type class but it could shit out status affects and other massively debilitating stuff alongside the -ja spell summons it had.

TL;DR. Big cutscene boom then OOM SMN hasn't been a thing since real early FF. Even recent spinoffs improved on it heavily, too.

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The most recent spinoff, TFS, still uses the large hit/leave scenario. FFXI allowed the player the choice to keep it out yes, but it did little else than drain MP, so people did as before; Summon, damage, dismiss, other skills.

There is no doubt they've mixed it up a bit with X forward, but its still largely a summon/hit/leave system for summoning in many of the games and aspects.

I care less about the loss of dots, and the sorry excuse for pets than I do the gaping void where a job mechanic should be.
Particle effects are only 50% of a job's identity. We need interaction that's more than just "push button, see number"
Even other simple, straightforward jobs have SOMETHING. (dnc, combos, procs, feathers, esprit, dance minigame. mch, two gauges to build and spend. RDM, mana, procs, combos)

Give me something to build and work on while I'm just pressing 1111, and it'll be fine, maybe even alright.

I think aetherflow and carbuncle behavior are the most likely slots to be filled for any kind of job influencing mechanic. (WHY IS RUIN IV??? WHY IS IT HERE??? IT'S SO TACKED ON IT'S SAD.)

Also where's my mana?

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Originally Posted by Nihility

may make me sound like the jerk but summoner being super simple and very few buttons is attracting me to it.

don't always feel like playing a job where everything is cranked to 100 at all times and one missed button messes you up for like a minute or more

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This was never ShB SMN unless the one missed button was a directional key to dodge a killshot.

may make me sound like the jerk but summoner being super simple and very few buttons is attracting me to it.

don't always feel like playing a job where everything is cranked to 100 at all times and one missed button messes you up for like a minute or more

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Because Summoner is too iconic of a job to have it reduced to a niche audience who likes dots. They should have given dot-enjoyers Necromancer or something instead of co-opting Summoner and twisting it into a failed version of Affliction Warlock.

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Summoner had summons that you could control and even decide when to use which one. That could have been fleshed out more. BLM has dots so does that make it a warlock or necromancer? Are healers? No. Using elements that do damage over time could easily have been expanded (fire?) and doesn't necessitate necromancy. Last I checked in most FF games summoners did a whole lot more than just summon. If it is due to popularity however I guess hrothgar should be completely reworked because they aren't popular enough? No obviously not.

It really makes me wonder if you guys raid or not. This is a huge knee-jerk reaction, basing what a class is capable of on a training dummy/easy to dodge mobs, not taking into account of mechanics that's being implemented within the game. I've been playing this game since the release of ARR, played Summoner as my secondary (Main is DRG) since then. I've done every tier of difficult content during the lows and highs of the class. However, unlike most people, I loved the DOTs summoner had. And prior to this expansion, I knew that the class I loved wouldn't be the same and I probably wouldn't like it (I don't, but that's due to me having an close attachment to OLD SMN). However, making a full-fledged judgement based on not even hitting cap on the class is absolutely silly. SE has stated that they are going away from Heavenward-level complexity, and it appears that they're focusing on fighting mechanics rather than individual class over-complexity. It took me a while to truly understand, but Dragoon was in a similar boat in SB because SE wanted to change how jobs perform focusing on mechanics, and during that time I thought it was stupid they'd ruin my class that I personally enjoyed, but eventually I grew to absolutely LOVE dragoon more due to not having to constantly look at my hot-bar for essentially ability bloat pretending to be complex, when it was just clunky (Old SMN). Does summoner need *some* tweaks? Sure. But they'd be minimal at most. You guys need to seriously simmer down, with the servers crashing and stuff (when you guys LITERALLY saw all the memes/discussion about it??), people are just frustrated.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

And as stated previously you will run into MP problems making Lucid mandatory.

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gonna be honest, it doesn't seem like it's MP negative with Lucid factored in, so i don't see the issue. Just because you're used to spending 3 MP over the whole fight doesn't mean that was the plan.

Actually, Hrothgar should absolutely be reworked too but that is a story for another time. In any case, bleeding things to death as a Summoner is boring. Why would you want to play a poison mage Summoner when you can be like Rydia and have spells like Firaga/Blizzaga/Thundaga/Flare along with your summons? Our new Rite and Catastrophe spells are the equivalent of those, roughly. Spells like Bio and Miasma are poison magic=commonly associated with Warlock and Necromancer. It has already been explained numerous times why pets in this game feel awful and why so many were glad to see them reworked to the state they're in now.

I feel sorry for the Summoner Mains that hate the changes but as a non-summoner main these changes actually makes the class feel approachable.

Not saying i'll main it, but I might actually consider playing it now instead of it being a 100% NOPE.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Actually, Hrothgar should absolutely be reworked too but that is a story for another time. In any case, bleeding things to death as a Summoner is boring. Why would you want to play a poison mage Summoner when you can be like Rydia and have spells like Firaga/Blizzaga/Thundaga/Flare along with your summons? Our new Rite and Catastrophe spells are the equivalent of those, roughly. Spells like Bio and Miasma are poison magic=commonly associated with Warlock and Necromancer. It has already been explained numerous times why pets in this game feel awful and why so many were glad to see them reworked to the state they're in now.

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It's called black mage, which is the class you're playing.
Rydia is a Black Mage with Summoner tacked onto it.
What about Eiko and Garnet? They were Summoners, like the race Summoner who also knew White Magic.
Yuna, despite her Sphere grid letting us have her not be a White Mage.

Your argument regarding Summoner is just flat out invalid.

For once XIV did something that did not involve either White or Black Magic but opted for Green instead.
Green Mage actually focuses on both positive and negative, including poisons and making enemies more vulnerable to for example Fire.

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Originally Posted by Laphicet

SB MCH mains laugh at you and Healer mains continue to laugh at you and anyone who thinks this. It's not going to happen, once that complexity is gone it's gone for good with this dev team and their constant focus on appealing to bottom of the barrel players.

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And here comes the kicker:
Square would much rather keep around the bottom of the barrel players than ones like you, no offense, its just business.
So i guess if you dont like it, you should play a more skill driven game than a story focused one.

Dont mean to come across rude, but this is the reality.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

And here comes the kicker:
Square would much rather keep around the bottom of the barrel players than ones like you, no offense, its just business.
So i guess if you dont like it, you should play a more skill driven game than a story focused one.

Dont mean to come across rude, but this is the reality.

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It is 100% possible to satisfy both.

Encouraging fun and engaging design isn't a competitive sport. We don't need to pick teams.