Media Tour - 6.0 Monk Changes feedback

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Originally Posted by Kahnom

To be honest, I'm not gonna worry about pre-pull timer. It is what it is and I don't want everyone wait for 30 sec timer for each pull.
I'm more worry about the flow of the job.That's why I mentioned downtime when BH and PB are on CDs.

This blitz system is more engaging than SAM's Meikyo but SAM has other stuffs to play with even when Meikyo is on CD while we have only Forbidden Chakra, Riddle of Wind and SSS.... on wait Anatman too.

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Me neither tbh, but would prefer it didn't exist, Anatman should provide a perfect balance window after a 5s channel on a 5min CD or something, make it have a use, that being not wasting peoples time.

The Monk core rotation I always found fun, the loss of the positionals on Twin and True will detract a little from that I feel, especially if the Media Tour potency stays as it is (the base potency we have now without the pos-bonus - I guess a final potency is still being worked on).
I assume we're just going to be getting more Forbidden/Enlightenment usage for the time being, which is fine for me. I don't need a million oGCD's on such a fast job. I always found I was just single-weaving them as they came up in non-raid content anyway, never saw the animations cos I was always anim-cancelling onto the next weaponskill. With Blitz at least we get to see our oGCD's and they're not much slower coming back up than our current oGCD's, just need to do a little combo before using them.

While not looking at it from a hardcore content standpoint, we appear to be Losing buttons (admittedly stance dancing is not often used at least at my low level of play) with the 3 fists going away. A few of my points have already be covered above. SSS is still a funky disengage which is why I guess they changed our shoulder tackle to a poor mages aetherial manipulation. Anatman still feels comically useless especially with the longer phase transitions or ones that force a stun and thus break shown in ShB is these will be the norm. We're still the only melee without a ranged attack for "Stay away from the boss" phases. Enlightenment can work in a pinch but has a 5 second charge up for subsequent and you're in all likelyhood better off saving that for a melee chakra finisher anyways. Elixir (and unless I misread the job change Tornado kick) are coming off our bars so all we really have to do is focus on our positioning and hit the chakra button when we have 5 while cycling our combos. 30 seconds between forms while a buff doesn't
feel super useful.

Just so this isn't purely a complaint post. Getting Formless fist AFTER perfect balance finisher looks really nice. Also I'm actually for less buttons personally. Samurai pretty much does everything I want but better but the class has severe button bloat.

Also it feels like in content where positionals don't matter (Bozjan or certain bosses for example) we're going to be REALLY easy to play.

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Originally Posted by PariahDoge

While not looking at it from a hardcore content standpoint, we appear to be Losing buttons (admittedly stance dancing is not often used at least at my low level of play) with the 3 fists going away. A few of my points have already be covered above. SSS is still a funky disengage which is why I guess they changed our shoulder tackle to a poor mages aetherial manipulation. Anatman still feels comically useless especially with the longer phase transitions or ones that force a stun and thus break shown in ShB is these will be the norm. We're still the only melee without a ranged attack for "Stay away from the boss" phases. Enlightenment can work in a pinch but has a 5 second charge up for subsequent and you're in all likelyhood better off saving that for a melee chakra finisher anyways. Elixir (and unless I misread the job change Tornado kick) are coming off our bars so all we really have to do is focus on our positioning and hit the chakra button when we have 5 while cycling our combos. 30 seconds between forms while a buff doesn't
feel super useful.

Just so this isn't purely a complaint post. Getting Formless fist AFTER perfect balance finisher looks really nice. Also I'm actually for less buttons personally. Samurai pretty much does everything I want but better but the class has severe button bloat.

Also it feels like in content where positionals don't matter (Bozjan or certain bosses for example) we're going to be REALLY easy to play.

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We are absolutely losing buttons, im not thrilled about the loss of 3 OGCD's I'm hoping Chakra popping more often will cover this game at least a bit

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

"Messing up" PB would have to be such an obviously deliberate choice though. That is my problem with Celestial Revolution being the Rabbit Medium equivalent and why I think it's an absolute waste to keep it that way. You would have to be very careless or not even be thinking about what you're pressing to screw up Blitz. It's not strict like Mudras, because the only factor determining your failure for Blitz is not paying attention.

I would choose having "2 useful Blitz, 1 situational one" over "the only 2 Blitz worth using, 1 useless one that you never want to use in any scenario" any day of the week.

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I think the point here is that you CAN miss up. Maybe your finger slips or you zone out while doing some other mechanic, who knows. Your entire rotation shouldn't be ruined and out of sync for the remainder of the fight. With Celestial Revolution, you only lose some potency, but you aren't locked out of Phantom Rush.

So you aren't USING it on purpose in the same way you don't use Rabbit Medium on purpose. It's just a mistake recovery mechanism. The rotation is one Elixir Field, one Rising Phoenix, then one Phantom Rush.

1. I agree. I think Chakra cap should be raised to 7 at the least.

2. Maybe they will make Perfect Balance only activatable during battle.

3. Not really sure what they could do with Anatman

4. If I'm not mistaken you are supposed to alternate between Elixir Field and Rising Pheonix. So I think Celestial Revolution is there just in case you hit a wrong button. You still get your Nadi but your dps goes down. Think of it as a skill gap between players. Some players wont care while others that do Savage and Ultimates will want to maximize their MNK potential.

5. I kinda think of it as just a basic Blood for Blood I guess... I don't really feel it needed another self buff with Riddle of Fire and Brotherhood. Maybe you are meant to use 6 Sided Star then use all three buffs then go to town? who knows lol.

Overall tho I think these are good changes to MNK and will give them more room for advancement compared to what they have been doing with MNK up until now.

What if Anatman acts like mini-perfect balance ?
"Grants beast stack for the next weapon skill, or something" 20 sec CD, 2 charges.
Give only 1 stack but make the job less boring during downtime.

Rather they just ditch Anatman and replace it with someone useful. And if possible move SSS to OGCD but make it give you like a 5 second pacification debuff to keep with its idea of using it as you run away.

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Originally Posted by PariahDoge

Rather they just ditch Anatman and replace it with someone useful. And if possible move SSS to OGCD but make it give you like a 5 second pacification debuff to keep with its idea of using it as you run away.

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I'd rather Demolish upgraded into 6 Sided Star.

Then the rotation wouldn't change and you get a cool looking finisher.

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Originally Posted by AndieEldritch

In AOE we gain chakra super quick, so that shouldn't be an issue, especially now with Shadow of the Destroyer crits.
Single target will be slower when BH is not in use but not significantly, I am kinda worried about overcap, I already get a load of FC uses during BH windows now, with 100% chakra rate on weaponskill/spell it's going to be messy without two stacks of 5.

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Have we seen monk from the media tour yet? I have to think that's a misinterpretation.

I can't imagine in raid scenarios getting 8 chakra stacks every 2 seconds. You will be guaranteed to over cap if that's the actual implementation of the final brotherhood skill.

Thunderclap, speaking as a controller player, is probably going to just be thrown away. I'll use it as a gap closer to get back to a boss, but can't see it being valuable. It takes longer to target a member to move to with the skill then use it than it will in most cases to just walk over to them. Had the same problem with athereal manipulation. And macroing it will still add additional delay to it going off. I feel like it would have just been better to copy En Avant if they wanted to give monk a damageless movement skill. Being forced to target an enemy or party member is a useless hoop to jump through, and reeks of people developing the skill who only played the job on PC.

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Originally Posted by Clicked

I think the point here is that you CAN miss up. Maybe your finger slips or you zone out while doing some other mechanic, who knows. Your entire rotation shouldn't be ruined and out of sync for the remainder of the fight. With Celestial Revolution, you only lose some potency, but you aren't locked out of Phantom Rush.

So you aren't USING it on purpose in the same way you don't use Rabbit Medium on purpose. It's just a mistake recovery mechanism. The rotation is one Elixir Field, one Rising Phoenix, then one Phantom Rush.

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Here's the thing though. You can have both. It's possible to retain the system of having a "mistake" blitz while also not making that Blitz completely worthless. All they have to do is adjust the potencies.

Rising Phoenix is the strongest of the "normal" blitzes in both single target and AoE, so if you fail to do Rising Phoenix, you're already losing DPS. So BOTH of the other blitzes could grant the effect of opening the Solar Nadi if Lunar is already open, and that would allow your rotation to progress to Phantom Rush while still not being ideal. If Elixir Field was reduced to something like 230 AoE potency, with Celestial Revolution upped to 600, while STILL keeping the effect that lets it open either Nadi, that means there's now actually a meaningful and interesting choice here while still allowing your rotation to progress if you mess up.

If someone wants to say "but you could mess up by doing Elixir Field/Rising Phoenix twice". You can do that in the current system too.

There is just no reason that Celestial Revolution needs to be an "oops" Blitz except for the sake of simplifying the system so that no one has to remember more than two types of Blitz, which is a huge waste of the potential of making such a system in the first place. They went to all the trouble of making this new gauge that can produce 3 different attacks in an interesting way, and then just made one of those attacks useless. It's so disappointing.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

I feel like it would have just been better to copy En Avant if they wanted to give monk a damageless movement skill. Being forced to target an enemy or party member is a useless hoop to jump through, and reeks of people developing the skill who only played the job on PC.

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I've seen so many people suggest this but I don't think they've really thought it through. En Avant works for 2 reasons. One, because it's on a ranged class which means it doesn't really matter where you end up after you use it, it doesn't affect your ability to attack. And Two, En Avant is only 10 yalms.

If Thunderclap were a 20 yalm forward dash, you would constantly be teleporting yourself off ledges, into mechanics and death walls. 20y is just much harder to aim since the slightest difference in angle is magnified over a greater distance, and the additional length is harder to judge. And secondly, when you want to use it to return to the boss, you'd better hope that you are exactly 20y away or else you are just going to teleport straight through and out of range again.

Being targeted just makes more sense. If you don't want to target party members then fine, that's just how Shoulder Tackle works now. I doubt it'll ever be required, but making it targeted on party members is overall actually a lot more versatile than it being a forward dash like En Avant.



Lastly I don't have a specific quote for this one but I've also seen a lot of people suggest that Anatman should open a Nadi or refresh 1 charge of Perfect Balance. This is a bad idea for several reasons.

If it opens a Nadi, that wouldn't stop long prepulls, since you'd still be able to get an extra blitz in your opener by doing prepull. Second, it means that Anatman is useless if both nadi are already open.

If Anatman granted a charge of PB, that would be even worse. It would prevent long prepulls, sure, but now not only does it throw off the progress of your rotation whenever you use it during combat, you would actually be wanting to use Anatman on cooldown. Perfect Balance represents a huge amount of damage, and it would be more than worth dropping a single damage GCD to use Anatman and regain 1 stack. This entirely defeats the initial concept of Anatman as a downtime tool and forces annoying gameplay where you have to interrupt your rotation to stand still and charge a stack every minute.

Changing it so that Anatman only wipes off a portion of PB's cooldown per tick would solve using it on cooldown, but this would end up causing PB to misalign with your burst windows. You'd end up either holding the charges which wastes the point of Anatman anyway, or you'd drift PB outside of burst.

Prepull PB could be easily solved just by either making PB unusable out of combat, or reducing its duration to 15 seconds. This does mean you don't get Phantom Rush in the opener on on 2 minute windows, but if the job's DPS is balanced for this, what does it matter? If Monk releases and it's doing 10% more DPS than any other job, would you still complain about Phantom Rush not lining up? This is purely a mental hangup that I think people just need to get over. Don't get stuck on numbers.

Anatman's effect should just be something that's broadly useful and doesn't muck around with your rotation. For example it could give a stacking buff that increases your damage, up the potency of a specific move the next time you use it (like TFC/Enlightenment), or even just be a party utility thing like Improvisation.

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Originally Posted by Kahnom

What if Anatman acts like mini-perfect balance ?
"Grants beast stack for the next weapon skill, or something" 20 sec CD, 2 charges.
Give only 1 stack but make the job less boring during downtime.

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I'm trying to figure out why it doesn't just open up Chakras while you're under the effect. Actually, I see no reason why Anatman can't do the following:

Maintains current form at max
Maintains Twinsnakes at max
Grants one chakra upon execution, and one per server tick
Nullifies most KB/Draw in effects
Reduces all damage by 50%
*Any movement or action cancels the effect
*Duration 12s
*recast 180s (maybe even 120s. This ability is not as strong as it looks on paper, but still godly)
*Must be in combat to receive beneficial effects (similar to SAMs meditate).

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Originally Posted by PangTong

If Anatman granted a charge of PB, that would be even worse. It would prevent long prepulls, sure, but now not only does it throw off the progress of your rotation whenever you use it during combat, you would actually be wanting to use Anatman on cooldown. Perfect Balance represents a huge amount of damage, and it would be more than worth dropping a single damage GCD to use Anatman and regain 1 stack. This entirely defeats the initial concept of Anatman as a downtime tool and forces annoying gameplay where you have to interrupt your rotation to stand still and charge a stack every minute

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Why do you have to use Anatman on GCD ? Its ogcd, no ?
And I don't care about skill's innitial concept, it can be anything by changing animations and skill names. Why are you so fixated that Anatman must be only downtime tool anyway ?

If you change the animation and the skill name and the way it functions it's literally not even the same skill. That's not fixing Anatman, that's just removing it and replacing it with something else. Which is not even a bad idea, frankly. Monk doesn't particularly need a downtime skill anymore and it's hard to imagine a good one short of just copying Soul Sow from Reaper. If they were to just add another rotational skill though I'd rather it be something that fits in the long stretches of filler Monk now has between its burst windows, rather than just an extra blitz that you end up squeezing into those burst windows anyway.

But they're not gonna be adding new skills or drastically revamping animations and the like mid expansion, so if we're going to have Anatman it'd be nice if it at least did something useful that fits its whole vibe.

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Originally Posted by Kahnom

Why do you have to use Anatman on GCD ? Its ogcd, no ?
And I don't care about skill's innitial concept, it can be anything by changing animations and skill names. Why are you so fixated that Anatman must be only downtime tool anyway ?

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Anatman was an OGCD at the start of ShB but because quite a few Monk mains incorporated it into their opener to immediately gain a GL stack & to save PB for burst, SE put it on the GCD with 5.1 - which ironically just led to third party shenanigans.

And because of this it should be obvious why anyone is "fixated on Anatman being a downtime tool"; because SE obviously wants it to be one or they wouldn't have changed the skill in the first place.

The problem with the above is that it just doesn't make much sense in its current form. A downtime tool should have bigger benefits than simply extending Twin Snakes.

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Originally Posted by aeoncs

Anatman was an OGCD at the start of ShB but because quite a few Monk mains incorporated it into their opener to immediately gain a GL stack & to save PB for burst, SE put it on the GCD with 5.1 - which ironically just let to third party shenanigans.

And because of this it should be obvious why anyone is "fixated on Anatman being a downtime tool"; because SE obviously wants it to be one or they wouldn't have changed the skill in the first place.

The problem with the above is that it just doesn't make much sense in its current form. A downtime tool should have bigger benefits than simply extending Twin Snakes.

EDIT: Removed third party terminology.

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Oh I remembered that.
I refused to do that rotation because it was stupid.
I think I'm not gonna put it on my Hotbar in Endwalker.
Enough is enough.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

If you change the animation and the skill name and the way it functions it's literally not even the same skill. That's not fixing Anatman, that's just removing it and replacing it with something else. Which is not even a bad idea, frankly. Monk doesn't particularly need a downtime skill anymore and it's hard to imagine a good one short of just copying Soul Sow from Reaper.

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Frankly this is the only way to "fix" Anatman, because the skill is rotten on the conceptual level. It only exists because the devs opted to undo the quality of life changes from 4.2 to hamstring GL recovery and kill the Tornado Kick rotation. Without GL there's not much it can possibly do that Monk doesn't already have covered. Monk already has Meditation, Formshift and Six Sided Star as downtime skills so the niche is already crowded on Monk. Meditation is basically the prototype for such skills on other jobs. It hardly needs a forth downtime skill to upkeep a buff it can get back in at most two GCDs.

I suppose they could make it an upgrade to Meditate so it both builds chakras and refreshes Twin Snakes at the same time, but if it remains a channeled skill and you can't use it while moving like Meditation currently can then that would frankly be a downgrade.

Edit: forgot a downtime skill.

Right now Monk has two glaring issues. The long pre-pull timer to sync up with burst phases and Anatman being functionally useless.

Whats super annoying is that one problem could solve the other very nicely. Just stick Anatman on a 3 min CD and allow it reset PB cool down when activated

Job done

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Originally Posted by PangTong

I've seen so many people suggest this but I don't think they've really thought it through. En Avant works for 2 reasons. One, because it's on a ranged class which means it doesn't really matter where you end up after you use it, it doesn't affect your ability to attack. And Two, En Avant is only 10 yalms.

If Thunderclap were a 20 yalm forward dash, you would constantly be teleporting yourself off ledges, into mechanics and death walls. 20y is just much harder to aim since the slightest difference in angle is magnified over a greater distance, and the additional length is harder to judge. And secondly, when you want to use it to return to the boss, you'd better hope that you are exactly 20y away or else you are just going to teleport straight through and out of range again.

Being targeted just makes more sense. If you don't want to target party members then fine, that's just how Shoulder Tackle works now. I doubt it'll ever be required, but making it targeted on party members is overall actually a lot more versatile than it being a forward dash like En Avant.

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I have thought it through, and I suggested a copy of a skill which actually does work. I never gave a distance to how far Thunderclap should let you move if it functioned the same way as En Avant, you're the one that said it would send us 20 yalms and would make monks drop themselves off cliffs. I would assume the specifics for distance would be something the developers would test out and balance accordingly.

My entire point is that for console players, having to target a party member to use a skill that exists so you can squeeze in an extra attack and greed some damage defeats the purpose as it would take you enough time that trying to do so would end up killing you. There's not enough time to go to the part list and select the person you need and then use that skill in that situation. You might have well just moved out of the point blank attack. Yes it still works the same as does shoulder tackle to get back to an enemy, but that's because as a DPS, you always have the boss (in a raid situation) targeted. There's no target switching needed.

My point is that Thunderclap as they implemented it isn't a very good skill for a large number of players. And to be honest, most of the movement skills are. Shukuchi has the same problem of being too time consuming to use to be worth it.

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Originally Posted by PangTong

En Avant works for 2 reasons. One, because it's on a ranged class which means it doesn't really matter where you end up after you use it, it doesn't affect your ability to attack. And Two, En Avant is only 10 yalms.

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To be fair, the whole game could benefit from path-edge detection such that a movement skill could be cut slightly short if/when there exists no pathable terrain beyond that point. And with that you have a handful more mobility options suddenly removed of their outlier interactions and made practical.

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Prepull PB could be easily solved just by either making PB unusable out of combat, or reducing its duration to 15 seconds. This does mean you don't get Phantom Rush in the opener on on 2 minute windows, but if the job's DPS is balanced for this, what does it matter? If Monk releases and it's doing 10% more DPS than any other job, would you still complain about Phantom Rush not lining up? This is purely a mental hangup that I think people just need to get over. Don't get stuck on numbers.

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This is good advice. If a job is already balanced around a given lack of synergy, it merely happens to slightly overperform in light party content, for which there is only the barest difficulty and therefore needs no competitive integrity. Oh no. The terror.